North Korea launches rockets

Pride Fighter

http://www.france24.com/en/20090405-nkorea-appears-have-launched-rocket-japan http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSTRE53058220090405?pageNumber=1&virtualBrandChannel=0

This is breaking news happening at the moment, as a result the link is sparse on detail. But I have heard that N.Korea are testing long range ballistic missiles and Japan has said if they go over their territory, they will shoot them down.

Interesting breaking news.

Tipsy Mac

I don't really see how America and any other country currently in possession of similar long range weapons have any grounds to make an issue of them testing it.

Manic Moran

Tipsy Mac wrote: »

I don't really see how America and any other country currently in possession of similar long range weapons have any grounds to make an issue of them testing it.

I don't believe the Japanese or South Koreans, the most likely targets, have any such missiles, the US isn't too pushed by it on a 'personal' level.

I wonder why the Japanese didn't shoot it down? Malfunction, or they just decided to be nice?

NTM

Kev_ps3

Fair play to them, congrats from me anyway.

Joey the lips

Just heard it on the news.

Is anybody of the same opinion as me i.e. The world will never be without nuclear weapons as obama hopes becuase the world will never give up on such a destructive weapon?

Can you honestly see the US giving them up.

Cab you honestly see Russia trust them?

Daft... Unless we figure out a potion or laser to destroy radioactivity etc we are stuck with nuclear weapons

랴연

Well what I don't understand is why everyone has such a problem with it ?

Japan launch satellites, China does, the US does, Russia does etc.

So what if its a long range missile test ? They can already hit any target location in South Korea (I live in Seoul) with the scuds they have possessed for 30+ years, as they can hit Japan unless I'm seriously mistaken.

Alright they are a dictatorial state where 60% of the people live in poverty and are under the constant threat of famine but in all fairness their government isn't stupid. Kim Jung Il is not about to start a war.

I don't know if anyone else has followed this closely but starting in 1998 South Korea adopted a 'sunshine policy' towards the North and we saw improvements that would never have been thought possible.

So South Korea tried being 'friendly' towards the North, giving unconditional aid etc stuff like that.

And the danger meter took a nosedive (few bumps but more or less accurate).

North Korea opened certain areas to tourism, the North opened one city to capitalism and South Korean workers (managers) were allowed to go across the border and back home. North Korea welcomed the head of South Korea to Pyongyang, something that was absolutely unthinkable beforehand.

So things were going ok, not great but things were friendly enough.

Then George Bush came along and had a policy of "we're not talking to you until you get rid of your nuclear program" which had the effect of "why would we get rid of our nuclear program when its the only bargaining chip we have against you ?"

And things started to go downhill but more or less stabilised at a semi-friendly condition until the new South Korean president who adopted George Bushes attitude.

So since the new President took that stance we have seen the danger meter jump up, tourism to the north stopped, the economic area in the north opened and closed intermittently and North Korea acting more and more aggressively.

Moral of the story ? politicians are all idiots.

The Saint

I think the main issue is that the test us supposedly in violation of UNSC 1718under Chapter VII of the UN Charter (the serious chapter :pac:) which:

2. Demands that the DPRK not conduct any further nuclear test or launch of a ballistic missile;

and

5. Decides that the DPRK shall suspend all activities related to its ballistic missile programme and in this context re-establish its pre-existing commitments to a moratorium on missile launching;

and

7. Decides also that the DPRK shall abandon all other existing weapons of
mass destruction and ballistic missile programme in a complete, verifiable and
irreversible manner;

Linky
I think the issue is that if NK obtains balistic missile technology with nuclear capability then others in the region will feel it necessary for them to develop a deterrent. This is not a favourable outcome. Japan might demand that the US station nuclear weapons in Japan in return for them not developing their own capabilities and will just lead to further proliferation in the region. And since many of NK's previous tests have been in the direction of Japan you can hardly blame them.

Anyway, it would seem the test has failed and the rocket has landed in the Pacific.

redout

Seemingly the thing was a banger and fell into the sea. Koreans saying its in orbit but BBC and South Korea and Japan saying it fell into the pacific.

bmaxi

I think what the U.S. is worried about is not, whether N. Korea has the technology but who they will supply it to.

sink

bmaxi wrote: »

I think what the U.S. is worried about is not, whether N. Korea has the technology but who they will supply it to.

Precisely! NK and Iran sell each other technology and this missile will allow Iran to target NATO bases in Europe.

jonny72

sink wrote: »

Precisely! NK and Iran sell each other technology and this missile will allow Iran to target NATO bases in Europe.

I think Iran has a lot more to fear from us than we ever do of them, we in the West cause more wars over resources, etc than any of these so called 'rogue' nations.

Ironically we appease North Korea, even the Bush admin did, BECAUSE they nuclear/long range missile capability.

bmaxi

jonny72 wrote: »

Ironically we appease North Korea, even the Bush admin did, BECAUSE they nuclear/long range missile capability.

Not forgetting their powerful friends.

Sometimes it's hard to know what to believe. The U.S. sold us a pup over Iraq and the non existent WMD. Is the Iranian situation something similar? They portray Kim Jong Il as some kind of inbred lunatic, when neutral observers say he is a clever, resolute man. They said similar things about Noriega in Panama, just prior to invading his country and wiping out his armed forces , (coincidentally, a year or so before Panama was due to take back ownership of the Panama canal). Chavez in Venezuela seems to be the latest hate figure in that neck of the woods. I think the U.S. have lied themselves into a "boy who cried wolf", situation which is actually quite serious for all of us.

Liam Byrne

Joey the lips wrote: »

The world will never be without nuclear weapons as obama hopes.....

Obama's hopes are just political soundbytes and bull****.

Instead of supposed "hopes", let him lead the way and get rid of theirs.

Mr.Micro

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Obama's hopes are just political soundbytes and bull****.

Instead of supposed "hopes", let him lead the way and get rid of theirs.

The hypocrisy of countries with nuclear weapons is incredible. We can only destroy the planet once. The US should not preach if it does not practice what it preaches.

Allah Hu Akbar

Tipsy Mac wrote: »

I don't really see how America and any other country currently in possession of similar long range weapons have any grounds to make an issue of them testing it.

Couldn't agree more.

I wonder why the Japanese didn't shoot it down? Malfunction, or they just decided to be nice?

I know you were kinda laughing at the fact that Japan would hammer North Korea but I doubt Japan would do anything because China could end up getting involved, who would win there?

Well what I don't understand is why everyone has such a problem with it ?

Japan launch satellites, China does, the US does, Russia does etc.

So what if its a long range missile test ? They can already hit any target location in South Korea (I live in Seoul) with the scuds they have possessed for 30+ years, as they can hit Japan unless I'm seriously mistaken.

I don't even think they need skuds don't they have something like 13,000 big cannon things that hit every part of the South?

Precisely! NK and Iran sell each other technology and this missile will allow Iran to target NATO bases in Europe.

Can't Iran already do that? If I'm not mistaken Iran already has launched a satellite so how would they benefit from it? I know Iran get's their engines for their missiles from them but besides from that I'm not to sure what else they already get loads of help from China.

I think Iran has a lot more to fear from us than we ever do of them, we in the West cause more wars over resources, etc than any of these so called 'rogue' nations.

100% agree.

marcsignal

apparently against UN rules says President Obama?

That's odd, Israel ignores the UN all the time and it doesn't seem to bother anyone.

dlofnep

The issue is that NK is run by a batsh*t crazy nutball, who orders public executions of civilians for no reason whatsoever. The people of North Korea live in complete and utter poverty.

Instead of spending it's yearly budget on food and supplies for the poor in the nation, they'd rather spend it all on their military.

I hope the North Korean people can liberate their country, and oust that gobsh*te sooner rather than later so that they can have somewhat of a comfortable life.

Moriarty

Why would anyone want to see a nuclear armed north korea with working balistic missiles? Serious question, I can't think of a single reason. I think just about any other action would be preferable if you're just looking to fight the man(/US hegemony). Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.

It's the stated aim of the US government now to reduce nuclear weapons stockpiles with the eventual goal of complete worldwide elimination. They've come to an agreement with Russia on beginning negotiations on a new arms control treaty. They've acknowledged that the US must lead the way in this. I think that's a pretty big step. Granted, actions are needed to demonstrate how serious they are on this, but actions take time and hopefully in time we'll see them follow through with the hard work.

Proliferation is a serious issue and I think they've decided to go down the right path. The more weapons that exist and the more states that have control over them, surely the greater the risk of them eventually being used in anger. From my understanding, the only reason we don't have a nuclear-armed east asia is the US's safety guarentees to it's allies in the area and the knowledge that other countries don't have to make up the fabled bomb-gap as a result. At least there is a consistant approach to nuclear weapons across the US defence and diplomatic departments now.

I can't help but be pessimistic regarding the elimination of nuclear weapons however.. the knowledge has been out there for decades and can't be removed from the public domain. It's a pretty depressing thought that we'll more than likely see nuclear weapons being used by someone against someone else in our lifetimes. We can't stay lucky forever.

marcsignal

Moriarty wrote: »

We can't stay lucky forever.

+1 good post Moriarty, i hope president Obama does manage an even handed approach on this, and other similar foreign policy issues. It will be a difficult task trying to disarm one country of sophisticated weaponary, while you're supplying others with the same.

dlofnep

Moriarty wrote: »

Why would anyone want to see a nuclear armed north korea with working balistic missiles?

Agreed. NK with any sort of weaponry is a danger to it's neighbours.

Fanny Cradock

Some people might find this article of interest.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090405/ap_on_go_pr_wh/eu_obama

I really like the pats on the back these guys give each other when they posit the idea that they should reduce their nuclear misile stockpiles to numbers that can still destroy the earth several times over. Well done, lads.

Back to the mater at hand, I personally think it's worrying that any country actively looks to build their own nuclear weapons these 'enlightened' times, especially a country like NK.

TheInquisitor

Lads they cant hit ireland! Discussion ended! :P

On a more serious note about the DPRK i would be more worried about when Kim Jong II dies and the following succession than about missle tests. North korea has no intention of being destroyed. They dont want to go to war because that is exactly what will happen. They have spent the last 50 years saying day in day out they will destroyed south korea , america etc. At this stage i doubt the 2 countries could ever realisticly be reunited!

RedPlanet

Moriarty wrote: »

It's the stated aim of the US government now to reduce nuclear weapons stockpiles with the eventual goal of complete worldwide elimination. They've come to an agreement with Russia on beginning negotiations on a new arms control treaty. They've acknowledged that the US must lead the way in this. I think that's a pretty big step. Granted, actions are needed to demonstrate how serious they are on this, but actions take time and hopefully in time we'll see them follow through with the hard work.

Proliferation is a serious issue and I think they've decided to go down the right path. The more weapons that exist and the more states that have control over them, surely the greater the risk of them eventually being used in anger. From my understanding, the only reason we don't have a nuclear-armed east asia is the US's safety guarentees to it's allies in the area and the knowledge that other countries don't have to make up the fabled bomb-gap as a result. At least there is a consistant approach to nuclear weapons across the US defence and diplomatic departments now.

It's a rather sensationalized story isn't it?
He also said something to the effect that: For those worried about a unilateral American disarmament, Obama promised that the country would keep enough nuclear weapons to defend itself and its allies as long as the weapons existed in other nations. -from the washington times.

So, the premier military power, whom has no qualms sending it's war machine to far-flung regions of the world, is basically saying it would only eliminate its nuclear stockpiles if everybody else does first?
So much for leading by example. :rolleyes:

Moriarty

I'd presume once you start getting down to a handful of weapons each, you could coordinate a simultaenous decommissioning world wide on the same day. It'd certainly be a day to mark down if and when it does happen.

Would you not agree that it would be a significant step to get to even that stage? Do you agree that proliferation should be avoided?

jonny72

dlofnep wrote: »

The issue is that NK is run by a batsh*t crazy nutball, who orders public executions of civilians for no reason whatsoever. The people of North Korea live in complete and utter poverty.

He's just very clever. Many dictators have taken advantage of political systems to fuel their own selfish ends. This guy has just created a mass cult and an almost foolproof self-protection method based on absolute fear. The people couldn't rise up if they wanted to, they don't even trust their own family members.

We in the West know a lot about this as our Governments have supported and propped up such dictators for decades for our own ends, be it resources, strategic, etc.

랴연

bmaxi wrote: »

They portray Kim Jong Il as some kind of inbred lunatic, when neutral observers say he is a clever, resolute man.

Well its not just neutral observers who say he is a clever resolute man. Wasn't it the ex US president Ford who went to Pyongyang to meet him during the Clinton administration and said he was 'clever' etc and I'm sure one of Clintons admin, secretary of state or something said similar.

In South Korea its the same opinion, they don't think hes a lunatic.

If you look at the agreements and talks which include the DPRK, he always manages to get a really good deal for himself/his government. He is smart because all this pressure hes pumping on now is to get concessions. He no more wants to start a war then Ireland does, but he also knows that a war will not be started against him either unless he does something really stupid.

The US, for all their huffing would not attack the DPRK without serious provocation simply because short of nuking the country into the stone age they likely couldn't win. The DPRK for all its faults has a massive well trained and relatively well equipped army as well as a brainwashed population who would not be subdued easily.

It has the largest special forces in the world and one only needs to look back at fairly recent incidents involving skirmishes between the DPRK and SK/US troops to see that they are very very well trained.

And thats not even taking into account the backing of China who would never let the US gain such a strategic foothold on their border regardless of the circumstances.

Saying all that it is an evil regime and needs to change. I can't see it embracing anything but a semi-Chinese approach to change for the short term though.

랴연

dlofnep wrote: »

Agreed. NK with any sort of weaponry is a danger to it's neighbours.

Why ?

랴연

TheInquisitor wrote: »

On a more serious note about the DPRK i would be more worried about when Kim Jong II dies and the following succession than about missle tests.

Most likely candidate is his third son.

North korea has no intention of being destroyed. They dont want to go to war because that is exactly what will happen.

If the US goes to war with NK then China will have to join in on the NK's side. China will not allow the US to control that region, they can't.

So even if the US were able to defeat the NK without nukes (not a foregone conclusion if you look at the military power of the DPRK) they would have to go to war with China which simply put, neither side wants.

They have spent the last 50 years saying day in day out they will destroyed south korea , america etc.

A common misconception, they haven't been saying anything of the sort, at least not to the outside world.

Most people don't know this but at the end of the Korean war, North Korea and the US and China signed the armistice. South Korea would not.

Also, while NK does have a lot of anti-American propaganda there are the odd neutral opinions about it too. For example a few years ago an American Navy ship rescued some NK fishermen and in the NK national newspaper they gave the Americans praise and thanks.

Its not as black and white as most people think.

At this stage i doubt the 2 countries could ever realisticly be reunited!

Not politically anyways for a long long time.

ilkhanid

"I can't see it embracing anything but a semi-Chinese approach to change for the short term though. "

NK has become so totalitarian that even a highly qualified,Chinese-style degree of openness is a million miles away from their ideas.

Quote:
"They have spent the last 50 years saying day in day out they will destroyed south korea , america etc."

"A common misconception, they haven't been saying anything of the sort, at least not to the outside world. "

I recall a statement not too long ago that they would-paraphrasing " rain fire down on Seoul."

"..not a lunatic"; " Well its not just neutral observers who say he is a clever resolute man"
Well,,it all depends on your definition of sanity. If keeping his regime and dynasty in power,making his military more terrifying to everybody outside his state and keeping the world on its toes, then he's smart...in a way. As regards running a state that treats its people well and tries to cool tensions with his neighbours, then he's crazy. But the thing is,cooling tensions does not serve him as opposed to his country. Kim Jong Il is " wise in the ways of the wilderness" and doesn't want to encourage the trends towards openess that a more relaxed international situation would indicate. He knows what perestroika etc brought to people like Ceausecu and he will lead his people to the brink of annilihation-but not over- to avert that fate.