~75 years on Earth versus all eternity in Heaven.

jayteecork

Why bother wasting your time down here?

You've got 1 million^million^million^million etc years of absolute bliss in heaven.

How can 75 puny earth years compare to an eternity of orgasmic pleasure?

That said though, maybe only the first few trillion years will probably be good anyway.

After that things might take a turn for the worst.

Existing for all eternity probably isn't all its cracked up to be.

But yeah, the reason most people actually profess to believe in a religion is that they actually think 1) they deserve immortality, and 2) immortality is actually desirable.

Húrin

If you have faith in God's words being in the Bible, it probably is all it's cracked up to be. Either way we can't really comprehend eternity at the moment.

biddy21

who says you are going to heaven?

jayteecork

Húrin wrote: »

If you have faith in God's words being in the Bible, it probably is all it's cracked up to be. Either way we can't really comprehend eternity at the moment.

Existing for zillions of years sounds like a right old laugh

And also, God probably has a lovely white beard.

jayteecork

biddy21 wrote: »

who says you are going to heaven?

Well it's either that or an eternity of unimaginable suffering, right?

Hell?

Eternity is facing me one way or the other.

JimiTime

Seems like you're making a statement, rather than asking a question. Anyway. As a Christian, part of Faith, is trust. We also must be humble. Humble enough to realise our limited understanding and knowledge. God has promised us 'exquisite delight', so I'm not going to start arguing that maybe it wont be what he says it is. As my creator, he knows me better than I do, and I'm confident, that whatever his plans are, it wont be too shabby. He may have his work cut out when it comes to apathetic teenagers though:pac::)

Fanny Cradock

jayteecork wrote: »

Why bother wasting your time down here?

You've got 1 million^million^million^million etc years of absolute bliss in heaven.

How can 75 puny earth years compare to an eternity of orgasmic pleasure?

That said though, maybe only the first few trillion years will probably be good anyway.

After that things might take a turn for the worst.

Existing for all eternity probably isn't all its cracked up to be.

But yeah, the reason most people actually profess to believe in a religion is that they actually think 1) they deserve immortality, and 2) immortality is actually desirable.

I'm not quite sure what the point of your post is

Anyway, I would be of the opinion that with regards to Christian eschatology, the Bible promises the followers of Jesus eternal life - not in heaven (though I'm not saying this isn't a part of it) but here on earth. What that actually entails is another thing, but like Jesus' post resurrection appearances, I think that the Bible teaches that we will ultimately have a physical form - in other words, a body. Yet this will be a different type of existence in a new form of creation built on the old. Very vague, I know. But there is an excellent talk here by Bishop N.T. Wright about his book Surprised by Hope which does a considerably better job of explaining it all.

PDN

jayteecork wrote: »

Well it's either that or an eternity of unimaginable suffering, right?

Hell?

Eternity is facing me one way or the other.

Yes, I would agree with you that eternity is facing you one way or another. And the choices you make in this life will determine where you spend that eternity. That makes what happens down here very important indeed.

But yeah, the reason most people actually profess to believe in a religion is that they actually think 1) they deserve immortality,

Well, you managed to get that totally wrong, didn't you? Most Christians don't think they deserve eternity at all. They think that salvation is an underserved gift from God.

Maybe, if you want to make the right choices about eternity, you could start by doing some research so you'll know what you're actually talking about.

Zombrex

jayteecork wrote: »

Well it's either that or an eternity of unimaginable suffering, right?

Hell?

Eternity is facing me one way or the other.

Isn't hell supposed to be obliteration?

PDN

Wicknight wrote: »

Isn't hell supposed to be obliteration?

Some people see it that way, but Christian orthodoxy would see hell as a continual conscious state.

Zombrex

PDN wrote: »

Some people see it that way, but Christian orthodoxy would see hell as a continual conscious state.

With or without a lake of fire?

PDN

Wicknight wrote: »

With or without a lake of fire?

Depends on how literally you interpret 'lake of fire'. My own opinion is that it symbolises unending grief and pain.

I don't believe that it will be necessary for God to inflict any actual fire. I think the following two factors will do that job themselves:

a) In hell people will realise the enormity of their actions. For example, I still remember an occasion when, as a 8 year-old child, I was part of a group of kids who taunted another kid because he walked funny due to polio. At the time I saw little or nothing wrong with what I was doing (I blame my atheist upbringing - ONLY KIDDING!). Now, however, it causes me pain every time I think of it. The moment when the penny dropped that I had behaved in a way that was truly shameful is emblazoned into my memory. I can't imagine what an eternity would be like with such pennies continually dropping and reminders of my actions being continually before me.

b) In hell people get to spend all eternity with Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Chairman Mao, Pol Pot, Pope Innocent III etc. These evil people will, I suspect, continue to dehumanise and dominate all those around them, but this time there will no death to provide release for their victims.

Fanny Cradock

PDN wrote: »

Depends on how literally you interpret 'lake of fire'. My own opinion is that it symbolises unending grief and pain.

I don't believe that it will be necessary for God to inflict any actual fire. I think the following two factors will do that job themselves:

a) In hell people will realise the enormity of their actions. For example, I still remember an occasion when, as a 8 year-old child, I was part of a group of kids who taunted another kid because he walked funny due to polio. At the time I saw little or nothing wrong with what I was doing (I blame my atheist upbringing - ONLY KIDDING!). Now, however, it causes me pain every time I think of it. The moment when the penny dropped that I had behaved in a way that was truly shameful is emblazoned into my memory. I can't imagine what an eternity would be like with such pennies continually dropping and reminders of my actions being continually before me.

b) In hell people get to spend all eternity with Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Chairman Mao, Pol Pot, Pope Innocent III etc. These evil people will, I suspect, continue to dehumanise and dominate all those around them, but this time there will no death to provide release for their victims.

I'm not sure what I believe when it comes to hell. I spend much energy on it, tbh. Hoowever, do you think that these 'pennies' are an active form of punishment, or are they a consequence of not being exposed to God's influence?

PDN

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I'm not sure what I believe when it comes to hell. I spend much energy on it, tbh. Hoowever, do you think that these 'pennies' are an active form of punishment, or are they a consequence of not being exposed to God's influence?

I would guess it's more a case of a lot of people's self-justification and self-deception being stripped away. They'll see themselves as they really are, and they'll no longer be in a position to make excuses or to blame others.

Of course I might be totally wrong! But it's not too hard to see how hell could be miserable enough without God having to actively ignite any flames.

wolfsbane

PDN wrote: »

I would guess it's more a case of a lot of people's self-justification and self-deception being stripped away. They'll see themselves as they really are, and they'll no longer be in a position to make excuses or to blame others.

Of course I might be totally wrong! But it's not too hard to see how hell could be miserable enough without God having to actively ignite any flames.

I think all true Christians will agree that the flames, be they literal or metaphoric, bring real suffering. Eternal punishment is the purpose of the fire.

PDN

PDN wrote: »

I would guess it's more a case of a lot of people's self-justification and self-deception being stripped away. They'll see themselves as they really are, and they'll no longer be in a position to make excuses or to blame others.

Funny how you make that sound a bad thing.
One might think this is an excellent goal to achieve in this lifetime.


edit: funny also how you don't think people in heaven would or perhaps you're making the extraordinary claim that there are a number of people out there who do not engage in any self justification?

robindch

PDN wrote: »

b) In hell people get to spend all eternity with Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Chairman Mao, Pol Pot, Pope Innocent III etc.

Perchance heaven should exist and it's full of evangelicals bent on converting whoever got in without clicking their heels in exactly the right way, well, that would be a very special kind of hell, I would imagine, for most people.

I'll take my chances in the other place.

TheInquisitor

75 years on earth is enough for me. I don't believe in anything after death. When you die thats it. Your gone ,finished , finto etc!! Im gonna make sure i have fun over the next 50 odd years, raise a family and have a good life!

PDN

bluewolf wrote: »

Funny how you make that sound a bad thing.
One might think this is an excellent goal to achieve in this lifetime.

In this lifetime I think it is an excellent goal. I hope and pray that as many of you as possible reach it. But to realise it afterwards, when it is too late, is a different matter entirely.

edit: funny also how you don't think people in heaven would or perhaps you're making the extraordinary claim that there are a number of people out there who do not engage in any self justification?

Probably better to limit my comments to salvation rather than heaven, since we don't want to go too far off topic.

I believe those who are saved have already acknowledged their real nature and received forgiveness. Any sense of shame will be overwhelmed by an incredible awe at God's forgiveness and grace - something, sadly, that will be lacking in hell.

PDN

PDN wrote: »

I believe those who are saved have already acknowledged their real nature and received forgiveness. Any sense of shame will be overwhelmed by an incredible awe at God's forgiveness and grace - something, sadly, that will be lacking in hell.

I love the automatic assumption their "real nature" is inherently a bad thing; something that you've convinced yourself of so strongly it requires an external influence to "forgive".
Really a clear example of attachment bringing suffering

PDN

bluewolf wrote: »

I love the automatic assumption their "real nature" is inherently a bad thing; something that you've convinced yourself of so strongly it requires an external influence to "forgive".
Really a clear example of attachment bringing suffering

Ever visit Dachau? Yad Vashem? Congo? Rwanda? Liberia?

The sad truth is that, in general, people are not nice.

PDN

PDN wrote: »

Ever visit Dachau? Yad Vashem? Congo? Rwanda? Liberia?

The sad truth is that, in general, people are not nice.

That doesn't mean everyone who is "saved" automatically started off not nice, nor that the actions of many people dictate that everyone else by default "saved" or otherwise has an inherently bad "real nature".

The Mad Hatter

wolfsbane wrote: »

I think all true Christians will agree that the flames, be they literal or metaphoric, bring real suffering. Eternal punishment is the purpose of the fire.

You really are a piece of work, you know that?

Not only are you absolutely certain of the truth of your own scriptures, but anyone who disagrees with your interpretation of them is not a 'true Christian'?

PDN

bluewolf wrote: »

That doesn't mean everyone who is "saved" automatically started off not nice, nor that the actions of many people dictate that everyone else by default "saved" or otherwise has an inherently bad "real nature".

It's a pretty strong indicator, as is 99% of human history. People are not very nice and, given the opportunity, most of them are quite happy to live off the exploitation of others. Which is why we are able to have a debate over the internet while over 50% of the world's population struggles to survive on less than $2 a day.

robindch

PDN wrote: »

Ever visit Dachau? Yad Vashem? Congo? Rwanda? Liberia? The sad truth is that, in general, people are not nice.

I think it's rather fairer to say that when people are brutalized by exclusivist ideologies or identities which their leaders declare free of error and worth killing or dying for, that people in general behave badly.

If people were really not nice, then you would not be living in an era which exhibits more human co-operation, by far, than any previous one in human history.

PDN

PDN wrote: »

It's a pretty strong indicator, as is 99% of human history. People are not very nice and, given the opportunity, most of them are quite happy to live off the exploitation of others. Which is why we are able to have a debate over the internet while over 50% of the world's population struggles to survive on less than $2 a day.

Using the internet, eating and drinking and getting bills paid does not give someone a bad "real nature" by default, particularly if that person cannot do anything about the other 50% of the world's population.
Would also echo robin's point above

wolfsbane

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

You really are a piece of work, you know that?

Not only are you absolutely certain of the truth of your own scriptures, but anyone who disagrees with your interpretation of them is not a 'true Christian'?

I certainly know I am God's workmanship:
Ephesians 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

I am also fully persuaded about the truth of the Scriptures, otherwise I wouldn't bother basing my life on them.

But I do not limit true Christianity to those who believe exactly as I do. There are many secondary issues that true Christians differ on - only when we go to be with Christ will we be sure of all truth. It is the essentials of the faith that mark out the true from false believer - things like the deity of Christ, His atoning death and bodily resurrection. Failure to hold those show that the person has never been converted.