Iarnrod Eireann plans DART extension to Inchicore

Cool Mo D

I think that once the boring machines are in the ground, working away, the extra cost of a somewhat longer tunnel is relatively OK (but not cheap by any stretch of the imagination). I believe it's the underground stations that are really expensive - around 100 million each...

extragon

The interconnector won't happen. There is no significant commuter service into Heuston to justify a multi billion euro tunnel. Even Tallaght only got a tram. What hope for Hazelhatch? ( Yet we're told there'll be twenty trains an hour - essentially to Hazelhatch, and the metropolis of Adamstown! ) It's a plan for a much bigger city that doesn't yet exist, and may never exist.

I wonder if it's all about rivalry between different sets of consultants employed by CIE and RPA, who drip feed juicy bits of spin to the govt, while spinning out their own jobs. That and boosting property values in CIE lands near Spencer's dock. Has any outside body ever examined it?

aliveandkicking

extragon wrote: »

The interconnector won't happen. There is no significant commuter service into Heuston to justify a multi billion euro tunnel.Even Tallaght only got a tram. What hope for Hazelhatch? ( Yet we're told there'll be twenty trains an hour - essentially to Hazelhatch, and the metropolis of Adamstown! ) It's a plan for a much bigger city that doesn't yet exist, and may never exist.

I wonder if it's all about rivalry between different sets of consultants employed by CIE and RPA, who drip feed juicy bits of spin to the govt, while spinning out their own jobs. That and boosting property values in CIE lands near Spencer's dock. Has any outside body ever examined it?

How about doing a bit of research on the entire project first before coming on here spouting complete nonsense? It's not just about the Kildare line into Heuston. And also why don't you go off and compare Dublin to Munich and see what happened in Munich when they built their version of the interconnector.

http://www.irishrail.ie/projects/dart_underground.asp

http://www.railusers.ie/campaigns/extendthedart/what_is_the_drp.php

http://www.railusers.ie/campaigns/extendthedart/interconnector_commuters.php

BendiBus

extragon wrote: »

There is no significant commuter service into Heuston to justify a multi billion euro tunnel.

Yeah, nobody lives in West Dublin.

Nostradamus

extragon wrote: »

The interconnector won't happen. There is no significant commuter service into Heuston to justify a multi billion euro tunnel. Even Tallaght only got a tram. What hope for Hazelhatch? ( Yet we're told there'll be twenty trains an hour - essentially to Hazelhatch, and the metropolis of Adamstown! ) It's a plan for a much bigger city that doesn't yet exist, and may never exist.

I wonder if it's all about rivalry between different sets of consultants employed by CIE and RPA, who drip feed juicy bits of spin to the govt, while spinning out their own jobs. That and boosting property values in CIE lands near Spencer's dock. Has any outside body ever examined it?

I see some Joe Duffy callers have escaped into the wild.

extragon

Munich: the tunnel from Hbh to Ostbahnhof links an extensive suburban system at each end, which largely existed prior to its building. Also, it's a useful link to get people to the city centre, in contrast to the Dublin plan which takes people on the Howth line farther away from O'Connell St. for example.

All over Europe there are "interconnectors." In Paris, where I live, it's called the RER. All five of the lines were built to connect existing surface networks with extensive commuter traffic. The same applies to London's crossrail project, and even to Liverpool's "interconnector."

Each morning there are ten trains from Hazelhatch to Heuston betwen 6am and 9am. One single deck train every eighteen minutes. The Irish "plan": build the tunnel and hope the traffic picks up later. Has any other city done something like this?

Why not develop a DART service into Heuston, and a shuttle LUAS to the city centre ( with a plan to build a tunnel later, if required )? No chance because it could cost money in the near future. Talking about an Interconnector costs nothing.

Nostradamus

extragon wrote: »

Why not develop a DART service into Heuston, and a shuttle LUAS to the city centre ( with a plan to build a tunnel later, if required )? No chance because it would cost money. Talking about an Interconnector costs nothing.

1850 715 815

ihatewallies

extragon wrote: »

Munich: the tunnel from Hbh to Ostbahnhof links an extensive suburban system at each end, which largely existed prior to its building. Also, it's a useful link to get people to the city centre, in contrast to the Dublin plan which takes people on the Howth line farther away from O'Connell St. for example.

All over Europe there are "interconnectors." In Paris, where I live, it's called the RER. All five of the lines were built to connect existing surface networks with extensive commuter traffic. The same applies to London's crossrail project, and even to Liverpool's "interconnector."

Each morning there are ten trains from Hazelhatch to Heuston betwen 6am and 9am. One single deck train every eighteen minutes. The Irish "plan": build the tunnel and hope the traffic picks up later. Has any other city done something like this?

Why not develop a DART service into Heuston, and a shuttle LUAS to the city centre ( with a plan to build a tunnel later, if required )? No chance because it could cost money in the near future. Talking about an Interconnector costs nothing.

more guff plagiarized from the Ladybook book of joke economics.

(1) you don't know much about Dublin. The Howth DART will have greater connectivity and access to O'Connell St
(2) The reality of suppressed demand is Greek to you clearly. There's no scope for greater frequency on the Kildare line (until the 4 tracking and new stations are complete). Just as nobody used the old Howth line until the DART was opened. Many said that was a waste of money. Same mindset.
(3) As a PPP little money needed upfront.

Another escapee from Joe Duffyland spouting the 1st idea that comes into his brane.

mysterious

extragon wrote: »

Munich: the tunnel from Hbh to Ostbahnhof links an extensive suburban system at each end, which largely existed prior to its building. Also, it's a useful link to get people to the city centre, in contrast to the Dublin plan which takes people on the Howth line farther away from O'Connell St. for example.

All over Europe there are "interconnectors." In Paris, where I live, it's called the RER. All five of the lines were built to connect existing surface networks with extensive commuter traffic. The same applies to London's crossrail project, and even to Liverpool's "interconnector."

Each morning there are ten trains from Hazelhatch to Heuston betwen 6am and 9am. One single deck train every eighteen minutes. The Irish "plan": build the tunnel and hope the traffic picks up later. Has any other city done something like this?

Why not develop a DART service into Heuston, and a shuttle LUAS to the city centre ( with a plan to build a tunnel later, if required )? No chance because it could cost money in the near future. Talking about an Interconnector costs nothing.

Just stop pleeeeease.

For the love of god, do you realise it's is probably the single most important project Dublin needs right now. It will not only benifet West Dublin and Kildare, it will intergrate our public transport network, bring the inter urban rail ines into the network and allows 100,000s of commuters to switch to public transport. Oh god you have no idea what your talking about.

Do you realise how jampacked the Luas is from Huesten to Connolly is alone. You actually have to push people on it even at off peak. Do you realise how much people from the Dart alone who commute to Huesten station everyday??

I don't really need to say anymore, cus if you clearly don't know what your talking about, then I doubt I can help you.

DWCommuter

Are so many of you entrenched in the view that the interconnector is the be all and end all, that you poke fun at Extragons comments. Realistically Extragon is correct about the commuter figures into Heuston.

I'm a supporter of the interconnector. But even I can see that its a project that has such dominence in the public arena that it completely negates any short term and more cost effective solutions. We have put all our eggs in the one basket and the egg cups may end up empty. It's a project that ultimately makes the Dublin commuter rail network work in a more efficient manner. There's no denying that. It has far more benefits than Metro North. However, the commuter figures on one particular side of it are definately not there in comparison to other European cities. You could say that after Stephens Green, it heads for the country.

There is also some merit in the view that incremental implementation of the DART prior to any tunnelling should have occured. Therefore it is not untoward to suggest that a "grand plan" containing everything is both wrong and prone to a negative interpretation, especially since the money is running out. Fianna Fail in Government have blown vast sums of cash and then embraced public transport projects, just as the arse was falling out of the economy. It would appear that Irish Rail embraced boom times to such a degree that they forgot about a plan B. Where will this leave us?

I would advocate that the "Grand Plan" will cost us dearly in the long run. DART to Kildare and Maynooth and Balbriggan should have been the first phase, particularly since the KRP is nearing completion. One can sense that the KRP wasn't really thought out in terms of an interconnector and will end up as an expensive white elephant if the continued flow of cash dries up. (looking likely) Its also worth mentioning that the Dunboyne "siding" is a veritable waste of time running to Docklands. Furthermore Docklands is an asset that isn't being sweated and represents poor value for money. Perhaps the cash would have been better spent on electrifying existing lines.

Maybe the Dublin rail plan sold in one package was a godsend to a Fianna Fail Government because it required a long drawn out design and planning process that enabled them to long finger it all. A phased staging of projects would certainly have put the gun to their heads and maybe then we'd have seen how committed they were. It isn't too late and the immediate action now required is to ask Government to sanction the funds to put in place a foundation thats prepares the system for an interconnector, because this tunnell will not be built by 2015 or anything close to it. I'd take the electrification of both the Kildare and Maynooth and northern lines before Metro North as I believe it represents better value in terms of an existing and proven public transport system being upgraded in readiness of even bigger improvements.

Our grand children will deliver the interconnector.

mysterious

extragon wrote: »

Why not develop a DART service into Heuston, and a shuttle LUAS to the city centre ( with a plan to build a tunnel later, if required )? No chance because it could cost money in the near future. Talking about an Interconnector costs nothing.

Sure yeah let's just not intergrate our network. Lets get on trains, get off trains, get on bus, get off bus, (through gridlocked quays) get to another station, get onto another train and then go about your journey.

You really need to stop talking about stuff you really don't much about.
Hueston needs to be connected to the North and East rail lines aswell as connecting to the Dart/Luas lines around the city.

Sure if we were to agree with your inane notions, why bother doing anything, ah sure it's cost money, lets not build it.

Good god just stop with this please. My head can't take it

DWCommuter

mysterious wrote: »

Sure yeah let's just not intergrate our network. Lets get on trains, get off trains, get on bus, get off bus, (through gridlocked quays) get to another station, get onto another train and then go about your journey.

You really need to stop talking about stuff you really don't much about.
Hueston needs to be connected to the North and East rail lines aswell as connecting to the Dart/Luas lines around the city.

Sure if we were to agree with your inane notions, why bother doing anything, ah sure it's cost money, lets not build it.

Good god just stop with this please. My head can't take it

I really don't think you are actually reading Extragons posts in a coherent manner. Nor are you discussing this topic in the light of the countries current economic climate.

mysterious

DWCommuter wrote: »

Are so many of you entrenched in the view that the interconnector is the be all and end all, that you poke fun at Extragons comments. Realistically Extragon is correct about the commuter figures into Heuston.

If the train service wasn't so ****e, then there would be more commuters:rolleyes:
Btw what about the intercity journeys, they are also to use the interconnector why didn't he mention that, why didn't you mention that.

When the four tracking is finished, there will be more frequent services for Kildare, so its deemed logical to proceed with the Interconnector as it's stands.

I'm a supporter of the interconnector. But even I can see that its a project that has such dominence in the public arena that it completely negates any short term and more cost effective solutions. We have put all our eggs in the one basket and the egg cups may end up empty. It's a project that ultimately makes the Dublin commuter rail network work in a more efficient manner. There's no denying that. It has far more benefits than Metro North. However, the commuter figures on one particular side of it are definately not there in comparison to other European cities. You could say that after Stephens Green, it heads for the country.

If your a supporter, then what are you trying to say exactly?

Unless you have got better ideas, but please don't waste a full paragraph contradicting your support for this project.

DWCommuter

You are clearly typing responses before you have fully read and understood posts.

I support the interconnector. But incremental parts of the project could be put in place before the actual tunnel. The project is not JUST about the underground part.

As for intercity trains in the interconnector.....eh no. There won't be any as far as I'm aware.

If the train service was better, there'd be more using it? Hmmm... well there's only so many people along the Kildare route and its definately not densely populated. It doesn't compare in terms of other commuter lines. But Im not advocating this as a reason not to build the interconnector. Im merely agreeing with opinion of another poster.

Sponge Bob

The 'full' interconnector is

Tunnel Inchicore - Clontarf
Quad Track Kildare ( somewhere) - Inchicore
Quad Track Clontarf - Balbriggan

Electrify all of that
Electrify Connolly - Maynooth with electrified spur to Dunboyne

cost €4bn ( even now) . €500k spent most likely on designand abit of quad track and clonsilla - pace .

Another €3.5bn to find after the banks have robbed our money and bled us dry

ihatewallies

DWCommuter wrote: »

You are clearly typing responses before you have fully read and understood posts.

I support the interconnector. But incremental parts of the project could be put in place before the actual tunnel. The project is not JUST about the underground part.

As for intercity trains in the interconnector.....eh no. There won't be any as far as I'm aware.

If the train service was better, there'd be more using it? Hmmm... well there's only so many people along the Kildare route and its definately not densely populated. It doesn't compare in terms of other commuter lines. But Im not advocating this as a reason not to build the interconnector. Im merely agreeing with opinion of another poster.

So your point is?

Don't plan ahead? wait until chaos ensues?
funny thought that was the current main complaint.

economic disaster is with us for all time?
so spend nothing?
naive.


Scrap MN and electrify a few lines?
what will that do for capacity?

Your type of muddled thinking is what has got us to were we are now.
you're a bit simple.

ihatewallies

Sponge Bob wrote: »

The 'full' interconnector is

Tunnel Inchicore - Clontarf
Quad Track Kildare ( somewhere) - Inchicore
Quad Track Clontarf - Balbriggan

Electrify all of that
Electrify Connolly - Maynooth with electrified spur to Dunboyne

cost €4bn ( even now) . €500k spent most likely on designand abit of quad track and clonsilla - pace .

Another €3.5bn to find after the banks have robbed our money and bled us dry

what happened to your hysterics that the IC and MN couldn't proceed because your 'inside' info was that the Dept of F was worried about a turf war at St Stephen's Gn?
One of the most laughable spoofs on the whole site.
This your latest 'inside' fantasies?

There's no plan for 4 tracking to Balbriggan.

BTW, the IC tunnel goes to EAST WALL, not Clontarf. But that's a mistake any bogman could make.
Nor is there any plan to electrify the Dunboyme line.

L1011

There was a long term plan to quad track the Northern line in the 1950s when GNR(I) owned it. I suspect these are still somewhere on CIE's long finger.

DWCommuter

ihatewallies wrote: »

So your point is?

Don't plan ahead? wait until chaos ensues?
funny thought that was the current main complaint.

economic disaster is with us for all time?
so spend nothing?
naive.


Scrap MN and electrify a few lines?
what will that do for capacity?

Your type of muddled thinking is what has got us to were we are now.
you're a bit simple.

It appears you cant read and understand posts either.

My muddled thinking? I know more about it than you ever will. Are you a Government spin doctor, because you've reinvented what Ive said.

Keep on hating yourself.

D.L.R.

The Interconnector's achilles heel is the fact it doesn't connect with Connolly.

Now, we've all heard the arguement "there's no more capacity at Connolly!".. but has anyone considered this will be an UNDERGROUND line with underground stations?

Does nobody else get this?

The Docklands is a crappy solution - not even a single station but two disconnected ones, one of which was supposed to be "temporary" - how idiotic does that idea seem now? Well I've some news for you - the same morons are still running the show.

Lets not kid ourselves that the Interconnector is a perfect solution. Its pretty good and I hope it goes ahead at this stage. But not connecting it to Connolly is a major flaw. Saying its "impossible" is just lazy.

DWCommuter

ihatewallies wrote: »

BTW, the IC tunnel goes to EAST WALL, not Clontarf. But that's a mistake any bogman could make.
Nor is there any plan to electrify the Dunboyme line.

IC goes to Spencer Dock north if you want to be specific. The Dunboyne line has been designed to allow for electrification at a later date. Does that constitute a plan?

Keep on really hating yourself, eventhough I find you amusing. Insulting people is easy. Ive done it. But you don't appear to have any other tricks you little pony.

Carawaystick

But the IC will connect with Pearse so you can get a dart to Connolly.

D.L.R.

Carawaystick wrote: »

But the IC will connect with Pearse so you can get a dart to Connolly.

Yeah but its a wasted opportunity to connect Heuston-Connolly (Dublin's two major hub stations) DIRECTLY. (Ignoring the quaint little street tram).

And for what? So it can go through the Docklands. Whoop de doo. :pac:

ihatewallies

Another cousin fondler lost in Dublin. North Spencer dock me arse.
There's no such place. The portal will be at East Wall.
Underground to Connolly? Connolly is very elevated. Where will this tunnel surface?
Is Dublin geography that esoteric?
So build a tunnel to Connolly. Increase the volume of traffic. But without any increase on the over capacity inward corridor.
Hey, seems to be worse than muddled. 2 or 3 logical thoughts beyond you.

D.L.R.

ihatewallies wrote: »

Underground to Connolly? Connolly is very elevated. Where will this tunnel surface?
Is Dublin geography that esoteric?
So build a tunnel to Connolly. Increase the volume of traffic. But without any increase on the over capacity inward corridor.
Hey, seems to be worse than muddled. 2 or 3 logical thoughts beyond you.

- Station elevation merely boils down to escalator length to connect overground with underground. I'm not suggesting the tunnel portal be in Connolly ticket hall.

- A Connolly underground stop wouldn't affect Connolly overground traffic any more than the current plans do, because it wouldn't join the Northern Line until north of Connolly - just like the current Interconnector plans. There is no added conflict.

- The main problem with this idea is that the rail interchange north of Connolly hasn't been protected from innappropriate development, and now there's bloody office blocks in the middle of it. Aside from that issue there appears to be room for a tunnel to surface and join the Northern Line. Yes we are in the realm of hypothesis, to remind you. So lets not get too haughty there.

ihatewallies

It's elevated all the way to Killester..............
(or North Clontarf according to DWCommuter's geography ha ha)

Isolates it from MN if tunnelled to Connolly................
If MN goes to Connolly then O'Connell St is ignored.


You see it's not that difficult to put together a few logical thoughts......

Sponge Bob

ihatewallies wrote: »

It's elevated all the way to Killester..............
(or North Clontarf according to DWCommuter's geography ha ha)

Is the impending FF bloodbath in the local elections bothering you so after your budget today . Please chill willya or you will make Noel very cross with all your rantings around here .

We have never discovered whether the imminent Stephens Green turf war was sorted , it certainly had not been in the summer .

Who will build Stephens Green station this time ???

mysterious

DWCommuter wrote: »

I really don't think you are actually reading Extragons posts in a coherent manner. Nor are you discussing this topic in the light of the countries current economic climate.

There is only so much nonsense I can handle.

Hell I even just laughed now:pac:

krugerrand

Far be it for me to act as a moderator for this forum, but aren't some of the posts going off topic and developing into personal slagging matches ?

IIMII

ihatewallies wrote: »

Nor is there any plan to electrify the Dunboyme line.

No, but it is being built to facilitate it. Personally, I doubt that Dunboyne will ever be electrified (not as long extending it is being considered anyway) as in the slim chance we recover to the point Navan Phase II comes back on the agenda, that will be diesel and you can't have half the line electric, half diesel when the trains for Phase 1 will originate in Navan and will therefore have to be diesel. Anyway, as the country is in apocalypse mode at the moment, this doesn't really matter. Hopefully we'll get our **** in order to get the place moving again (without a property bubble)