Iarnrod Eireann plans DART extension to Inchicore

dazberry

A "DART Underground Integrating Dublin's Transport System" booklet winged its way into the letterbox today. Including the blurb and the poster of the map (pdf posted earlier in this thread) the following may be of interest:

HAVE YOUR SAY
Public Information & Consultation Evenings (see below) will be held during April 2009 for residents and business people along the proposal route of DART underground. All events are in the evenings between 17:00 - 20:00 hours.

Hilton Hotel, Inchicore Road, Kilmainham, Dublin 8 - Monday 20th April
Central Hotel, Exchequer Street, Dublin 2 - Thursday 23rd April
Seán O'Casey Community Centre, St. Mary's Road, East Wall, Dublin 3 - Monday 27th April
Alexander Hotel, Fenian Street, off Merrion Square, Dublin 2- Thursday 30th April

The DART Underground Project Team will be there to inform, listen and advise.

D.

Zebra3

Do the people of Drogheda really want to be served by DARTs stopping at a huge number of stations on their way into Dublin city centre?

Nostradamus

Zebra3 wrote: »

Do the people of Drogheda really want to be served by DARTs stopping at a huge number of stations on their way into Dublin city centre?

That's a good point.

I expect they'll have express and local services. Which I why I was wondering about the possibility of regional DARTs. Are they planning to order new EMUs for this service?

DWCommuter

They put a "feeler" out for new EMU's in 2007. I suspect the current DMU services from Drogheda would just be replaced. Thats if it ever happens of course.

strassenwolf

Victor wrote: »

Well, lots of peopel want to head to that part of town.

(St. Stephen's Green)

Victor, I am aware that this is the case.

I'm also aware that a lot of people wish to travel to the really central parts of the city.

It would be good to see a breakdown of what the demand patterns are. It's important that a correct decision is made about the following:

Should the interconnector be built through St. Stephen's Green, delivering passengers who wish to go to St. Stephen's Green directly to their desired location, while passengers on this line who wish to access the city centre need to change onto the metro in order to do so?

Or should the interconnector be built through a more central interchange location, delivering passengers who wish to get there to do so directly , while also allowing passengers who wish to go to St. Stephen's Green to change onto a metro heading there?

There are going to be a lot of passenger movements dependent on this choice, given that the lines are projected to last for about 100 years.

There is also the question of cost:

How do the figures for the number of passengers who wish to go to St. Stephen's Green weigh up against the number of passengers who wish to go to more central locations, thus giving some picture of the number of passenger movements over the next century or so; and, how the costs of a route via St. Stephen's Green and a more direct route would compare.

gjim

I'd guess that St. Stephen's Green not far from the "centre of gravity" in terms of destinations in Dublin. It's part of one of the two retail "poles" of Dublin as well as providing cachement for one of the biggest business districts and a huge number of residences and pubs/nightlife/restaurants. Despite what it looks like on the map, the population of the southside is far higher than that of the northside. You might argue College Green is more central but I'd contend that while Trinity itself is a destination, it creates a huge "dead space" in that part of the city; it's busy as a thoroughfare because of the geography of Dublin and not as destination in itself. You'd hope the transport system would be designed to facilitate bringing people to where they want to go rather than to where they currently walk through to get to where they're going.

loyatemu

D.L.R. wrote: »

Yes. As long as the northern line remains 2-track then there will be problems. Think of the difference between single lane road and dual carriageway.

Unfortunately the local brass of the time decided itd be dandy to develop lands right up to the edge of the tracks, almost the whole way along the route from Connolly-Howth Jn. Its a problem that doesn't have an easy or cheap solution, and a problem that the govt/IE appear to be doing nothing more than wishing away right now.

The truth is, the IC for all its benefits, will only make the northern line more congested, and delays are inevitable.

Clongriffen station will have passing loops though, won't it, and I'd say theres a number of other locations where loops could be built to allow overtaking. Of course, to use loops effectively Irish Rail would have to make sure its trains run accurately to the timetable, something they've never seemed particularly bothered about in the past.

Slice

The schematic of the rail network on the IR website is the best I've seen so far of existing and proposed rail lines in the city.

What use is having the DART take advantage of four tracking past Heuston when it'll be restricted by slots on the Northern Line?

Also, will the Loop Line Bridge be somewhat redundant once the IC is built? Perhaps IE will think about replacing it with something a bit more slender and elegant? I remember seeing a proposal a number of years ago to do just that. The incentive is there now that there's not more advertising hoardings on the bridge anyway...

GerardKeating

D.L.R. wrote: »

Yes. As long as the northern line remains 2-track then there will be problems. Think of the difference between single lane road and dual carriageway.

Unfortunately the local brass of the time decided itd be dandy to develop lands right up to the edge of the tracks, almost the whole way along the route from Connolly-Howth Jn. Its a problem that doesn't have an easy or cheap solution, and a problem that the govt/IE appear to be doing nothing more than wishing away right now.

The truth is, the IC for all its benefits, will only make the northern line more congested, and delays are inevitable.

Rather than 4 track the northern line, would it not be cheaper to make Metro North a DART line, and 4 track that to the airport and beyond to link with the northern line in the Rush/Lusk area.

DWCommuter

I fail to see how the IC will make the northern line more congested. If the DART is extended to Drogheda (which was IEs intention all along) Then Dundalk departing services will be scaled back. There are currently 7 commuter services departing dundalk daily. All serve stations Drogheda - Howth Junction. If the IC service is Drogheda - Hazelhatch, then I doubt Dundalk will hold onto its 7 commuter services when it already has 7 inter city services aswell.

Even if the Enterprise went hourly, there's still plenty of room for trains on the Northern line. You could easily fit a few in from Navan via Drogheda aswell.:D

Slice
The loop line bridge will be nowhere near redundant. It will carry Rosslare/wexford commuter services and the DART services from Maynooth - Bray/Greystones.

Praetorian

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Has anyone told the denizens of North city and north county dublin that Noel Dempsey will flatten their houses to quad track and electrify the line to Drogheda. ??

I'm interested but only have vague knowledge of the topic, so please refrain from flaming me ... hard

I really just find it hard to see how they can fit 4 tracks on the Northern Line without it costing a silly amount of money. Would 3 tracks be enough; considering the need for peak time traffic mainly going in one direction certainly from Balbriggan as far as Howth junction anyway!

I've read a good few of the posts here, and I've not seen anyone mention speed. Surely if we're upgrading a lot of the infrastructure we should be taking the opportunity to run higher speed trains. 70-90mph on the Belfast line doesn't cut it for me not to mention the whole 110 mph limit on the Cork line with 100 mph locos operating on it.... With the availability of cheap flights and the real progress on our motorway network, I think trains need a speed edge.

Would it not make sense for the tunnel part of the connector to do more of a southerly semi circle type of loop rather than stick so close to the Tallaght Luas line?

Also, I'm not 100% sure if I'm reading the plans correctly, but it doesn't look like the existing tunnel and line running between Heuston and Connolly is going to be used. Could we get some practical use out of it?

Cool Mo D

GerardKeating wrote: »

Rather than 4 track the northern line, would it not be cheaper to make Metro North a DART line, and 4 track that to the airport and beyond to link with the northern line in the Rush/Lusk area.

Definitely not! 4-tracking a long underground tunnel would be incredibly expensive. It would be cheaper to 4-track the northern line, even if a lot of property acquisition was required.

Maybe there should have been a dual-track rail tunnel built with and alongside the port tunnel, to provide a bypass for the most congested parts of the Northern Line for commuter and Intercity services.

peter1892

Cool Mo D wrote: »

Maybe there should have been a dual-track rail tunnel built with and alongside the port tunnel, to provide a bypass for the most congested parts of the Northern Line for commuter and Intercity services.

I made that very point to the RPA during the Metro North consultation process, but was told that Conolly was already at capacity in terms of the number of trains it could handle...

In my own parallel reality/fantasy world that's exactly what they did though - with intercity services connecting Belfast with Dublin via the airport in under 80 minutes, not to mention the extensive Dart/Metro underground network with multiple connection points. And a fully integrated ticketing system. And no tolls on the M50.

I'll wake up now...

monument

Sure this could be all sorted out by a high speed rail tunnel to go along with the infamous idea around here of building an all new Belfast-Dublin-Cork high speed line.

Put the only station in Dublin under the Green too. That'd make it a real Grand Central Station. In the long term we could have another intercity stop under it which would be for a high speed line Galway-Dublin-London. :pac:

For those without a bullish detector -- for the record, I'm not even slightly serious about any of the above. For those who don't see the above even slightly funny, please excuse me for having such a warped sense of humour

strassenwolf

gjim wrote: »

I'd guess that St. Stephen's Green not far from the "centre of gravity" in terms of destinations in Dublin. It's part of one of the two retail "poles" of Dublin as well as providing cachement for one of the biggest business districts and a huge number of residences and pubs/nightlife/restaurants. Despite what it looks like on the map, the population of the southside is far higher than that of the northside. You might argue College Green is more central but I'd contend that while Trinity itself is a destination, it creates a huge "dead space" in that part of the city; it's busy as a thoroughfare because of the geography of Dublin and not as destination in itself. You'd hope the transport system would be designed to facilitate bringing people to where they want to go rather than to where they currently walk through to get to where they're going.

And, indeed, your guess may be a good guess. Who's to know?

Though, it does seem that the presentation by the RPA has been a bit sketchy as to why St. Stephen's Green was the chosen location for the proposed interchange between the metro and the interconnector.

It was acknowledged by their route alignment expert that there were only a small number of suitable locations in the city for such an interchange. St. Stephen's Green was the selected location from this number. What were the pros and cons of the other locations?

It is to be hoped that they are also not just guessing that this is the best location for an interchange.

However, facts and figures as to why this is the best location have been a bit thin on the ground. Thus far.

Perhaps some flesh will be put on the bones later.

DWCommuter

I say we demolish Temple Bar and go back to the original plan. All those bohemian types annoy me anyway.:D

Gruffalo

DWCommuter wrote: »

I say we demolish Temple Bar and go back to the original plan.

But that would mean missing out on all those English Stag and Hen parties!

I'll bring my sledgehammer if you bring yours:pac:

Judgement Day

I'll bring my sledgehammer too if we can have the multi-storey double decker bus terminal that CIE wanted to build there.:D

Zebra3

strassenwolf wrote: »

And, indeed, your guess may be a good guess. Who's to know?

Though, it does seem that the presentation by the RPA has been a bit sketchy as to why St. Stephen's Green was the chosen location for the proposed interchange between the metro and the interconnector.

It was acknowledged by their route alignment expert that there were only a small number of suitable locations in the city for such an interchange. St. Stephen's Green was the selected location from this number. What were the pros and cons of the other locations?

It is to be hoped that they are also not just guessing that this is the best location for an interchange.

However, facts and figures as to why this is the best location have been a bit thin on the ground. Thus far.

Perhaps some flesh will be put on the bones later.

For excavation purposes?

Cool Mo D

Zebra3 wrote: »

For excavation purposes?

And it can meet up with the Luas at the same spot, without relying on the Government giving the go ahead for the BXD Luas.

murphaph

I personally think the Green is the ideal spot. College Green is artificially busy because of Trinity College funneling everyone through it. If ever built, the interchange here will be amongst the best in Europe-only missing long distance trains and even they will be easily reachable.

D.L.R.

murphaph wrote: »

the interchange here will be amongst the best in Europe

Lets not get too carried away there. Better yes, best in europe hardly.

ardmacha

Better yes, best in europe hardly.

Indeed Murphaph it won't quite be on a par with the likes of Friedrichstraße station in your vicinity, this is a useful interchange, especially since they took out the DDR passport control for those heading towards Alexanderplatz.

murphaph

Berlin has lots of good interchanges but many require a fair bit of walking between modes. Stephen's green will provide very rapid change between modes.

Friedrichstrasse isn't great going U6->S7/75 etc. Alexanderplatz itself can take ages (3 mins brisk walk anyway) to change between U2/U5 and the S-Bahn. That's what I mean when I say amongst the best-nice quick transfers with modes directly on top of one another.

It won't be the best, but it'll be very good if built as planned.

Aard

Would it make sense (financially) to build Stephen's Green Station with an extra platform or two, and run intercity either through it, or make it a terminus for all Dublin-bound trains?


Then it would really be a Grand Central.

L1011

Aard wrote: »

Would it make sense (financially) to build Stephen's Green Station with an extra platform or two, and run intercity either through it, or make it a terminus for all Dublin-bound trains?


Then it would really be a Grand Central.

Shoving large quantities of diesel trains in to an underground station is a nice quick way to ensure the commuting asthmatics of the city die younger... if we had mainline electrics this could work, but we don't.

Nostradamus

Aard wrote: »

Would it make sense (financially) to build Stephen's Green Station with an extra platform or two, and run intercity either through it, or make it a terminus for all Dublin-bound trains?


Then it would really be a Grand Central.

The thing is the carbon monoxide might be a problem. The passengers would all die!

Grand Central in NY never has diesels underground. They always use electric locos/EMUs - even in the earliest days of the the terminal.

I guess your comment brings up a whole other issue of electrifying all Inter-City lines into Dublin. Bring it on I say.

Victor

Cardon monoxide is less of a problem these days with these new-fanagled catalyic converters. Cardon dioxide and soot would still be a problem.

If you wanted to do Cork-St. Stephen's Green-Belfast you could add an electric loco at Adamstown / Heuston and drop it at Clongriffen / Drogheda.

markpb

Victor wrote: »

Cardon monoxide is less of a problem these days with these new-fanagled catalyic converters. Cardon dioxide and soot would still be a problem.

Indeed. A much bigger problem would be mixing metro trains with IC trains and ending up with the same mess we have on the Dart line. SSG (both lines) is for local services only, putting everything through it would only make it another rubbish service.

L1011

Victor wrote: »

If you wanted to do Cork-St. Stephen's Green-Belfast you could add an electric loco at Adamstown / Heuston and drop it at Clongriffen / Drogheda.

Would be an interesting reverse of Virgin Trains using diesel 'bodysnatchers' to haul electric trains to Holyhead!