Eoin Morgan called up to England 20/20 World Cup Squad

randomer

Cremated wrote: »

Thanks for clearing that up, so we could call Kevin Pietersen up if we wanted?, or am I picking what you said up wrong ...

If he moved to Ireland and fulfilled all the qualifications, then yes.

Remember he is South African and has qualified to play for England based on his mothers place of birth.

Marshy

Cremated wrote: »

Thanks for clearing that up, so we could call Kevin Pietersen up if we wanted?, or am I picking what you said up wrong ...

Only if he became a resident here for 4 years.

Helix

delighted for him

played against him a rake of times and he always had the potential to play at the highest level

dereko1969

I'm glad for him, however I hope that if he does make the squad for the World Cup that England actually use him so that he at least gets some games out of it rather than just being a loss to us. Unfortunately he's probably our most experienced 20/20 player so it would be a real loss for us. Great knock by him yesterday too, really patient to begin with which was just what was needed.

We shouldn't feed the trolls especially someone that has never commented on cricket before this non-issue came up. I wonder would the same attitude prevail if he was called up by Australia or South Africa, methinks not.

d'Oracle

Am I the only person who is pissed off at the fact that they picked him, yet they don't really need him?

The only reason I can think of for him to be picked is that he is in good touch through the qualifiers.

Their top order is bristling after last years T20.
Denly, Key, Napier (possibility of him being a flash in the pan notwithstanding), Bopara. All cracking openers.

Shah, Pietersen and Flintoff will all be in, if fit.
I Hope we can have him if he is cut.....

loosecannon

very very good article on the whole thing here

http://content.cricinfo.com/wt202009/content/current/story/398710.html

ray torrens comes across especially well.....and i think this helps explain the situation for anyone who might not understand it (Partyguinness etc)

Ireland frustration at Morgan call

Will Luke in Johannesburg


Ireland knew it was coming, but the announcement yesterday that Eoin Morgan, their prized and gifted batsman who was chosen in England's ICC World Twenty20 squad, has nevertheless left Ireland feeling helpless and a victim of their own success. England's 19th county is proving to be a goldmine of talent.

That it should have happened in the middle of the World Cup Qualifiers was an irony not lost on the team's manager, Roy Torrens. Just when the ICC's showcase event for Associate cricket is in full swing, one of their most talented jewels is stolen away by a Full Member and its fat wallet. The ICC is desperate to expose their undoubtedly impressive commitment to Associate cricket, yet the timing of Morgan's pick-pocketing by England could hardly have been worse, on the day he stroked a chanceless 84 in Ireland's thumping win over Canada.

"He's made no secret of that fact [wanting to play Test cricket]. So you know, it's not totally unexpected to us," Torrens told Cricinfo in Johannesburg. "We realise this is always going to be a problem with our better players playing in England. We just have to suck it and see."

Morgan has always held high ambitions to play Test cricket, a format of the game which Ireland simply cannot afford him. "With the help of ICC funding we're in a position this year that we might be able to contract some of our players at home. But it's going to be a long way down the line before we can ever compete with what these guys would earn across the water," Torrens said.

"It irks us. Of course it does. We've put a lot of money into under-age cricket and development, and we bring young lads up from 13 years of age and send them away to [the Port Elizabeth academy]. And then to suddenly see a county come along and pop them from us, you know…for the foreseeable future we're going to be in a position where we'll lose our best players.

"How ironic was it when we went to the 2007 World Cup and we had Ed Joyce playing against us. At the time, England weren't doing awfully well. Relatively speaking, we were doing quite well. And the reporters were asking us how we could justify playing three Aussies and a South African in our team. Yet Ed Joyce opens the batting against us!"

Ireland and Scotland's position is unique among Associates. Both teams, but particularly Ireland, have players contracted by English counties. Boyd Rankin turns out for Warwickshire; Gary Wilson for Surrey; Niall O'Brien keeps wicket for Northamptonshire and William Porterfield, who smashed 101 last week against Scotland, plays for Gloucestershire. Their involvement in a higher level of cricket has led to an upsurge in standard for Ireland, undoubtedly the favourites in this competition, whose allround cricket has improved year-on-year. Yet at the moment it is England, not Ireland, who are reaping the benefits.

Torrens may be unflappably resigned to Ireland's predicament, yet it is a cruel position his team finds itself in. Ireland, who have qualified for the ICC World Twenty20, will yet again be missing one of their key performers. Like Morgan, Rankin's involvement in county cricket has seen him develop from a giant twig into a frightening fast bowler. The influence of Allan Donald at Warwickshire, however brief, is the sort of tutelage Ireland simply cannot afford him.

"I suppose in the near future, it's of a benefit to us because they're going across to the counties, and won't have reached the stage where they'll play for England, so their improvement will benefit Ireland in the initial term," Torrens said. Yet the stories of Morgan and Ed Joyce are never too far from his mind. "Wait 'til you hear this one. In June 2006, Middlesex released Ed Joyce to play for England against Ireland in Belfast. Because Joyce was picked and playing for England, Middlesex then called in Eoin Morgan to play for Middlesex. So not only did we have Joyce playing against us, but we lost Morgan to play for Middlesex. It was a double whammy.

"As they say, it could only happen in Ireland. You can see where we're coming from; we feel as though we're getting the raw end of the stick the whole time."

There is no end in sight, however, for these talented players migrating to England before forsaking their birth country with the realistic hope of playing Test cricket. For the time being, Ireland are effectively the ECB's 19th county - "a breeding ground," Torrens put it, "because we have quite a good development system in place."

"What we would have liked is perhaps a bit more understanding from the counties regarding release of players for tournaments. We've had to play [without] Morgan, Joyce, Rankin and others at times. So we'd have thought, or hoped, that when we needed them to represent their country they might have been automatically released. When Niall O'Brien was with Kent, he wasn't available for some of the tournaments we'd have liked him to play in. So that's when we get annoyed and frustrated, when the counties don't play ball with us.

"But certainly as a cricketing country, we don't hold anything against the players. If you have the ability and the chance is given to you, then go for it. We don't like it, but we have to put up with it."

d'Oracle

Still waiting for Ed Joyce to make his test debut........

Its English sport in general though.
Its just easier to get away with in Cricket.

Washout

Is there any complaints to the fact that Ireland has australian and south african born players in the team?


what about the endless of english born players who have played for ireland at international soccer level based on the grandfather rule... is there complaints on that score as well?

Someone wants to play sports at the highest level and will not achieve that playing for Ireland. I for one wish him all the best and hope he succeeds.

TheDrog

Washout wrote: »

Is there any complaints to the fact that Ireland has australian and south african born players in the team?


what about the endless of english born players who have played for ireland at international soccer level based on the grandfather rule... is there complaints on that score as well?

Someone wants to play sports at the highest level and will not achieve that playing for Ireland. I for one wish him all the best and hope he succeeds.

seconded.

also eoin morgan has a decent chance of being selected by enlgand he was one of the top performers in the twenty20 last season

d'Oracle

Washout wrote: »

Is there any complaints to the fact that Ireland has australian and south african born players in the team?


what about the endless of english born players who have played for ireland at international soccer level based on the grandfather rule... is there complaints on that score as well?

Someone wants to play sports at the highest level and will not achieve that playing for Ireland. I for one wish him all the best and hope he succeeds.

You do realise that your examples do nothing to back up your point?
Particularly the Soccer one. Its an erroneous point. The players who played for ROI were either not good enough for England or elected to play for Ireland for some other reason.

I don't blame Morgan, nor do I blame Joyce.
But this is unfair for Ireland Cricket and Ireland supporters. I dont see Joyce playing Test cricket, he isn't even in the ODI squads.

Morgan has been picked purely on T20 Performance and will be discarded after that.

TheDrog

d'Oracle wrote: »

You do realise that your examples do nothing to back up your point?
Particularly the Soccer one. Its an erroneous point. The players who played for ROI were either not good enough for England or elected to play for Ireland for some other reason.

I don't blame Morgan, nor do I blame Joyce.
But this is unfair for Ireland Cricket and Ireland supporters. I dont see Joyce playing Test cricket, he isn't even in the ODI squads.

Morgan has been picked purely on T20 Performance and will be discarded after that.

If that was the case then he wouldn't have been selected for the england lions squad's tour of new zealand. joyce hasn't played test cricket but hasn't given up that's one of the reasons he moved to sussex

Gyalist

No doubt partyguinness will be delighted to learn that an Irishman - one Thomas Patrick Horan (born in Midleton) - played for Australia in the very first Test match in 1877 against England in a game won by Australia.

TrueDub

Gyalist wrote: »

No doubt partyguinness will be delighted to learn that an Irishman - one Thomas Patrick Horan (born in Midleton) - played for Australia in the very first Test match in 1877 against England in a game won by Australia.

And that there have been 13 men who played test cricket for two different countries, 4 of whom played for Australia v England in one match, and for England v Australia in another.

http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/content/records/283699.html

Cremated

Thanks for clearing that up, just a couple more questions if you dont mind ,

what are the chances of Morgan playing in the 20/20?, does he want to play for them over Ireland at the World Cup 20/20?,

and if he doesn't make an appearance on the field for England does that count against him playing for Ireland in the next four years?...

TrueDub

Cremated wrote: »

what are the chances of Morgan playing in the 20/20?, does he want to play for them over Ireland at the World Cup 20/20?,

His chances of making the England XI and getting playing time aren't great, I think. His chances of making the squad and thus being unavailable for Ireland are reasonable. As regards his wishes, he wants to play test cricket, and so cannot turn down a request from England to play in their 20/20 squad, as it could be a stepping-stone.

Cremated wrote: »

if he doesn't make an appearance on the field for England does that count against him playing for Ireland in the next four years?...

I'm not sure whether being named in the squad is enough to prevent him playing for Ireland subsequently or not. If he does take the field, he's then committed to England for as long as they want him, plus 4 years.

The worst scenario of all, from both Ireland's and Eoin's point of view, is that he's named in the England squad but doesn't get to play. He then carries drinks for England when he could have been batting at 3 for Ireland.

dereko1969

Well he hasn't been named in the England Performance Squad so at least that's a bit helpful, if he does get picked in their 15 they better use him, there'd be nothing worse than as truedub says him carrying drinks and not being used by us.

Cremated

Ah cheers for the help there, but one last question, someone else mentioned this earlier, why do England need to call him up?, would they not have sufficient players already?,

seems unfair them calling up one of our better players, but the lad wants Test Cricket, I wouldn't begrudge him that ...

TheDrog

he was one of middlesex's best players in a side that won the twenty20 last year and toured with the England lions. so it's no suprise that he's been called up

waterville72

Firstly can I say to you ppl who use the term troll to have a little respect for both sides of the argument.
I dont play cricket myself but I have a close relation who plays firsts and underage for Ireland so I am a supporter.
Firstly I can understand why Ed Joyce , Niall O'Brien and Eoin Morgan want to play test cricket. Its the highest level in the sport and financially it can be far more rewarding hence greater financial security.
In making their decision Im sure they looked at the consequences of their action to Ireland...
1. Ireland will be greatly diminished in the next one day world cup without their services . This is a sport where we are 9th in the world and as you all know we beat a top side in Pakistan last time, Who is to say that with these players playing fro us we wouldnt reach a semi next time around or even a final?
2. Ireland will NEVER reach test status without these players. I know most of you think that we will never get there with or without them but Id be more optimistic than most..look at the emergence of a team like Munster over a ten year peiod..its possible! New Zealand are there.
3. The current Irish team will only decline going forward as more and more of our young players will see their actions as the way to go( this is happening ..believe me!). Many young cricketers want to declare for England.

So what these people have done is weighed up the consequences and in the end thay have put their own interests( financial included) ahead of those of Irish Cricket and Irish Cricket supporters.
Now you can dress it up anyway you want but ultimately that is selfish.

Finally even if you do think its ok to declare for other countries in order to play Test Cricket (and I dont) these guys choose to declare for England! After all thats gone on historically in our fight for Independence(only received 88 years ago). The sacrifice made by countless thousands and the persecution of Irish people over hundreds of years. Amazing.

You see if these guys had any sense of the suffering caused by England to the people of Ireland they wouldnt pull on the white jersey of England.

Unfortunately the reality is that cricket in Ireland is predominantly( and I said predominantly) played by middle class people. And for whatever reason middle class people dont feel that hurt and sense of nationalism as people from a working class backround do. Of course they will say that they do but do you? Do you feel it in your guts? I dont think they do because if they did they wouldnt pull on an England jersey in a million years..financial security or not.
"God save our grascious Queen, Long Live our glorious Queen!..

Im sorry but how they pull that jersey on is beyond me.

TrueDub

Just because you're on the opposite side of the argument doesn't mean you're not a troll...

waterville72

Youll have to explain what troll means then..it must be some boards term then I dont understand. Seriously I dont know what it means.

delta_bravo

waterville72 wrote: »

You see if these guys had any sense of the suffering caused by England to the people of Ireland they wouldnt pull on the white jersey of England.

Unfortunately the reality is that cricket in Ireland is predominantly( and I said predominantly) played by middle class people. And for whatever reason middle class people dont feel that hurt and sense of nationalism as people from a working class backround do. Of course they will say that they do but do you? Do you feel it in your guts? I dont think they do because if they did they wouldnt pull on an England jersey in a million years..financial security or not.
"God save our grascious Queen, Long Live our glorious Queen!..

Im sorry but how they pull that jersey on is beyond me.

Really dont know where to start here. Your comment that the working class feel some sort of direct pain as a result of '800 years' is utter crap and has nothing to do with Cricket. You assume that working class people all had relatives that suffered from our colonisation: Many major figures in Irish nationalism were very wealthy and dont match your distorted image.

De Valera was a keen cricket fan and played in his school days at Blackrock. Martin McGuinness also has publicly made his love of cricket known.

Politics and sport should never mix. Sport is something to enjoy, Politics is something to endure.

Washout

delta_bravo wrote: »

Really dont know where to start here. Your comment that the working class feel some sort of direct pain as a result of '800 years' is utter crap and has nothing to do with Cricket. You assume that working class people all had relatives that suffered from our colonisation: Many major figures in Irish nationalism were very wealthy and dont match your distorted image.

De Valera was a keen cricket fan and played in his school days at Blackrock. Martin McGuinness also has publicly made his love of cricket known.

Politics and sport should never mix. Sport is something to enjoy, Politics is something to endure.

hear hear

waterville72

delta_bravo wrote: »

Really dont know where to start here. Your comment that the working class feel some sort of direct pain as a result of '800 years' is utter crap and has nothing to do with Cricket. You assume that working class people all had relatives that suffered from our colonisation: Many major figures in Irish nationalism were very wealthy and dont match your distorted image.

De Valera was a keen cricket fan and played in his school days at Blackrock. Martin McGuinness also has publicly made his love of cricket known.

Politics and sport should never mix. Sport is something to enjoy, Politics is something to endure.

Well I am in no way assuming anything about the working classes' realtives and their suffering from colonisation...where you deduce that from my post I dont know.
I am all in favour of cricket..I like it and I think it should be offered to all students in Ireland as a sporting option.
I never said anything about the wealth or lack of it of Irish Nationalists??
Finally I never mentioned "pain". What I did talk about was "hurt". Obviously you dont feel this hurt but whether you like it or not this sense of hurt does exist.

The issue is not whether you should mix sport or politics. Playing for your country surely is much bigger than politics?

Sorry friend but you need to read posts before you comment and not write about what you "thought" I said.

dereko1969

did you even read what you wrote yourself? you mentioned 'hurt' not being felt by middle-class people ergo it is felt by working class people. 'pain'/'hurt' meh, if you read earlier you'll see that i predicted some muppet would be along complaining about it being england they've declared for and not australia/pakistan/west indies/south africa/india etc... thanks for proving me right.
you've no idea what you're talking about so please just **** off back to your cave.

Marshy

waterville72 wrote: »

2. Ireland will NEVER reach test status without these players. I know most of you think that we will never get there with or without them but Id be more optimistic than most..look at the emergence of a team like Munster over a ten year peiod..its possible! New Zealand are there.

I do think you've a fair enough point there. It may be very unlikely any time soon but I think it's foolish to totally dismiss the idea of Ireland ever playing in Tests. Especially if the ICC ever had ideas of a two-tiered system with maybe 2 groups of 6 teams in separate divisions. Bangladesh and Zimbabwe(currently not playing Tests) haven't really competed at Test level. New Zealand and the West Indies generally lose most series too.

They could have a number of teams one step up from the Intercontinental Cup with the possibility of promotion/relegation. Even at the higher end Test cricket needs a shake-up to deal with the increased attraction with T20 and the like. I know a radical change in the system won't happen in the forseeable future but I'd never say never.

waterville72

if you read earlier you'll see that i predicted some muppet would be along complaining about it being england they've declared for and not australia/pakistan/west indies/south africa/india etc... thanks for proving me right.
you've no idea what you're talking about so please just **** off back to your cave.[/quote]

Cheers. Not worthy of a response Im afraid.

loosecannon

i might as well give you my two cents here - waterville you have some ok points but i feel your anger is misplaced

waterville72 wrote: »

I dont play cricket myself but I have a close relation who plays firsts and underage for Ireland so I am a supporter.
Firstly I can understand why Ed Joyce , Niall O'Brien and Eoin Morgan want to play test cricket. Its the highest level in the sport and financially it can be far more rewarding hence greater financial security.
In making their decision Im sure they looked at the consequences of their action to Ireland...

The above statement completely contradicts with some of your below statements - you've just explained rather well why these brilliant irish cricketers end up going on to pull on the dreaded three lions. Your anger should not be placed upon cricketers with drive and ambition that is purely being hindered by the country of their birth...

I'm not looking to name drop here but i know one or two of the above mentioned lads - one particularly well and he is probably about as patriotic as they come within Ireland and has done incredibly well and always given 100% when he plays for Ireland

The fact of the matter is that within the current system of World Cricket (which is not being controlled by Cricket Ireland or anyone really to do with Ireland) is that we are not and imo are probably very unlikely to ever play test cricket at least in my lifetime. Not only are we unlikely to ever play test cricket but I would say we won't even play that many regular internationals against the top teams because of tv pull/financial reasons.

The ICC control world cricket, they dictate the fact that Ireland and the other associate nations only really get to play at the very top level occasionally (at least they are now granting ODI status to the leading associates). We are in a position now where we are dominating associate cricket. Now here is the crunch point, there is very very little money in Irish Cricket unfortunately - take a look at the crowd's the Friend's Provident trophy games coming up now for example and unless Cricket Ireland can somehow get itself to a position where we are playing in the 20/20 tournament in England (which would be brilliant imo) we are unlikely to ever get any regular income source to pay our players with.

Because of the fact we have nowhere near enough money to go full time professional with the entire national squad it is no suprise that the people who are good enough to play for a living in the UK do. The even smaller number who may be good enough to go on and play top level international cricket invariably do as well. This is really not a debate about Patriotism, choosing one country over another, Pride or Selfishness it purely boils down to the fact that the only way for any Irish cricketer (currently) to play at the very top level is via the route that ed and eoin have taken.

If you wish to direct your anger in a more appropriate manner rather than at good Irish guys doing very well in their chosen sport then criticise the ICC for not doing anything like enough to protect our players or really putting a good drive into developing Ireland into at least a very serious ODI side. They could easily have introduced directives stating that they will waive certain qualification lengths & declaration rights etc so at least we get our very strongest XI out for every international (imo it's ridic Ed isn't back playing for us already since we haven't seen him in an england shirt for over a year - but that's because he would have to renounce his declaration for england i think meaning he couldn't be called up straight away again)

However to call these lads unpatriotic is ridiculous and is imo akin to saying that all the Irish footballers playing in the UK are unpatriotic and have no faith to their clubs in Ireland and they should be playing Eircom League to help bring that league up to international standard so we can get a side to the champion's league from Ireland. But no-one thinks that because there are so many factors that involve Irish footballers having to ply their trade in the UK to get to the highest level - it is the same situation for ed, eoin and nialler

waterville72 wrote: »

2. Ireland will NEVER reach test status without these players. I know most of you think that we will never get there with or without them but Id be more optimistic than most..look at the emergence of a team like Munster over a ten year peiod..its possible! New Zealand are there.
3. The current Irish team will only decline going forward as more and more of our young players will see their actions as the way to go( this is happening ..believe me!). Many young cricketers want to declare for England.


Finally even if you do think its ok to declare for other countries in order to play Test Cricket (and I dont) these guys choose to declare for England! After all thats gone on historically in our fight for Independence(only received 88 years ago). The sacrifice made by countless thousands and the persecution of Irish people over hundreds of years. Amazing.

You see if these guys had any sense of the suffering caused by England to the people of Ireland they wouldnt pull on the white jersey of England.

just a couple of points on the above stuff on your point 2) Even with our very very strongest national side out I would imagine we'd probably lose within two days by an innings to any of the top 4 in test cricket!

and point 3) that many young cricketers want to declare for england, i believe this is bs...cricketers in ireland now have something to aspire to after our World Cup in 2007, young cricketers in Ireland want to play for their country, of the tiny tiny % of those who might be good enough for that then some may aspire to go on and play for england

and on your point about the countless thousands who endured such suffering and endless persecution of irish people - that is very thankfully in the past now - I am not saying that we should ever consider forgetting our history as it makes up a huge part of who we are as a people but I for one am certainly very glad that we now have a good relationship with England generally and politically we have a good relationship. Peace and non hatred are a far nicer place to be than all the bloodshed this country has gone through.

and as for the pulling the three lions on - you've got 14 irish lads who are idolised all over the country and not having a single bad word about them and they're just about to go to south africa and pull on a jersey with a nice big english red rose on it and what's more that jersey in nice and red too!

Let's focus on the boys doing well for Ireland in the 20/20 world cup and maybe getting through to the second round to give those bloody english a good hammering!



edit - i think your final point about middle class people not feeling the hurt of our fight for indepedence could not be anymore wrong in any way and i don't understand wtf it has to do with cricket

Gyalist

So Eoin Morgan is in both the Twenty20 and ODI squads announced by England today. Huge loss for Ireland.

Edit: Oops! Didn't see the other thread.

ArmaniJeanss

waterville72 wrote: »

1. Ireland will be greatly diminished in the next one day world cup without their services . This is a sport where we are 9th in the world and as you all know we beat a top side in Pakistan last time, Who is to say that with these players playing fro us we wouldnt reach a semi next time around or even a final?
2. Ireland will NEVER reach test status without these players. I know most of you think that we will never get there with or without them but Id be more optimistic than most..look at the emergence of a team like Munster over a ten year peiod..its possible! New Zealand are there.
3. The current Irish team will only decline going forward as more and more of our young players will see their actions as the way to go( this is happening ..believe me!).

You actually made a couple of reasonable points before going off on the antiEngland tangent.

****
Does anyone know what the situation was with Sri Lankan players before 1975 (incredible as it might seem for a current Top4 team but there was no Sri Lankan cricket team until 1975).

So did their EdJoyce equivalents play for India/Pakistan/England in the 1960s/70s?