Photo to be needed to collect welfare

Heineken Helen

It's times like this when people support stricter laws imposed on invading our privacy. You should all be very careful about what you're suggesting/supporting. Once this kinda talk starts they'll think 'here's our chance'

And yes Biggins well said... either make them starve or make them give up a piece of themselves... tough choice :rolleyes:

Carawaystick

Most of the newly unemployed have paid their social insurance for a long while, and are entitled to collect jobseekers benefit.
You didn't answer my point what does a person do if the passport office is renewing their passport for a couple of weeks?

The stazi comment is fingerprinting everyone entering the country. post up your fingerprints if you think it's a good idea.

Why would foreign countries fingerprint everyone entering them to help cut down welfare fraud here?

How many EU regulations would merging the two fingerprint databases break, let alone how long before some of the data leaked? especially as you're now involving the british government.

Maybe if the govt focused more on tax dodging instead of making life hard for the vast majority of law abiding citizens instead, they'd get a better return for the same investment of scarce resources.

welfare fraud is in the hapenny place to tax evasion scams, and no-one goes to jail for tax dodging.

RedXIV

in fairness though, if they could even bring in the photo ID to collect SW, it'd still make a difference.

I understand the whole idea about having privacy invaded but lets face it, if you want help off the state, they are entitled to ask you to prove you need it and if introducing photo ID was to get rid of 10% of social welfare pay out in the form of scammers as these figures suggest, i think it would be pretty crazy not to enforce it

Hagar

I'm not 100% convinced photo ID will be as effective as the Govt. think.
It was tried and failed in Liverpool. Link.

Biggins

Carawaystick wrote: »

Most of the newly unemployed have paid their social insurance for a long while, and are entitled to collect jobseekers benefit.
You didn't answer my point what does a person do if the passport office is renewing their passport for a couple of weeks?

Maybe get an official stamped document from a social welfare office that is time stamped and limited for a specific period
- valid only for 2/3 weeks? Just long enough to get the updated photo-card id? (but not long enough and worthwhile for scammers to fake in fraudulence)

Carawaystick wrote: »

Why would foreign countries fingerprint everyone entering them to help cut down welfare fraud here?

• Maybe so that they could stop the rest of their more law abiding citizens getting a bad name due to a bad few rotten apples?
• Maybe so that they can trace their own home-brewed criminals (if only to see if they break those rules/laws, what else might they be breaking?)

Carawaystick wrote: »

How many EU regulations would merging the two fingerprint databases break, let alone how long before some of the data leaked? especially as you're now involving the British government.

Aaa I don't know - hang on - I'll ask the people at Interpol for example!

Carawaystick wrote: »

Maybe if the govt focused more on tax dodging instead of making life hard for the vast majority of law abiding citizens instead, they'd get a better return for the same investment of scarce resources.

welfare fraud is in the hapenny place to tax evasion scams, and no-one goes to jail for tax dodging.

I won't/can't dispute that welfare fraud is minor compared to any possible ongoing tax fraud.
However all forms of investigation of frauds have to start somewhere and as €530m to €540 million is estimated to be saved immediately by such as the introduction of photo ID at post offices- that makes is a hell of a "hapenny" to save!
Image what we could save if things were tightened more?
Maybe we could actually then subsequently afford those early cancer inoculations for all school girls - and thats just for starters!

At the end of the day its not a case of if it will happen - but when and to what degree.
We might be playing catch-up but we better get used to the idea of this further ID method coming.
That's technology and the inevitable coming together.

Duck's hoop

Biggins wrote: »

That AND fingerprint ID and a whole community of scammers would be up the creek more so big time.

Fuggit, tatoo the barcode on now.

Biggins

Duck's hoop wrote: »

Fuggit, tatoo the barcode on now.

Naa, I prefer the ID chip inserted under the skin!
(Further details as probably available via RTDH lol)

Heineken Helen

RedXIV wrote: »

in fairness though, if they could even bring in the photo ID to collect SW, it'd still make a difference.

I understand the whole idea about having privacy invaded but lets face it, if you want help off the state, they are entitled to ask you to prove you need it and if introducing photo ID was to get rid of 10% of social welfare pay out in the form of scammers as these figures suggest, i think it would be pretty crazy not to enforce it

There should be no BUT in that statement. They always use these powers against the weakest in society first... at the mo, that's people on welfare. Stigmatise them and everyone will agree with these measures.

I can't believe everyone's seriously suggesting this.

RedXIV

Heineken Helen wrote: »

There should be no BUT in that statement. They always use these powers against the weakest in society first... at the mo, that's people on welfare. Stigmatise them and everyone will agree with these measures.

I can't believe everyone's seriously suggesting this.

*shrug* i know more people taking the piss with the dole than genuinely need it. And i know most of the piss takers have the chance to get jobs but don't because they are lazy. Its pretty vexing to watch that constantly happening so i think the dole is a good place to start when it comes to stopping fraud. Besides, any one that genuinely needs the benefits will still get them.

It's only an ID card, you'd swear its a ticking time bomb

Heineken Helen

RedXIV wrote: »

*shrug* i know more people taking the piss with the dole than genuinely need it. And i know most of the piss takers have the chance to get jobs but don't because they are lazy. Its pretty vexing to watch that constantly happening so i think the dole is a good place to start when it comes to stopping fraud. Besides, any one that genuinely needs the benefits will still get them.

It's only an ID card, you'd swear its a ticking time bomb

the dole's always a good place to start :rolleyes:

We saw how great the ID cards were in Rwanda.

RedXIV

Heineken Helen wrote: »

the dole's always a good place to start :rolleyes:

We saw how great the ID cards were in Rwanda.

We didn't START with the dole, we're tackling it NOW, there's a bit of a difference

I didn't see how they affected Rwanda but i'll go have a look now

But in my mind, you'd only protest against something like this if you have something to hide?

redout

Id cards are mandatory in Spain and you cant do fuk all without one if your a Spanish national. Its needed for practically everything government related and even for credit card purchases. Its mandatory to carry the card on your person at all times from the age of 14. Having lived here for a few years I really dont see the thing as a hindrance. Its just an extra card to stick in your wallet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_document#Spain

Heineken Helen

RedXIV wrote: »

We didn't START with the dole, we're tackling it NOW, there's a bit of a difference

I didn't see how they affected Rwanda but i'll go have a look now

But in my mind, you'd only protest against something like this if you have something to hide?

If I had anything to hide do you think I'd be publicly against it? That's a lazy argument.

In Rwanda ID cards were used to commit genocide... as in that other famous story we all know about.

RedXIV

Heineken Helen wrote: »

If I had anything to hide do you think I'd be publicly against it? That's a lazy argument.

In Rwanda ID cards were used to commit genocide... as in that other famous story we all know about.

but still a valid point. if you're against something this simple which should, in theory, prevent people taking the piss of our welfare system, one would wonder why? If you supported the idea of cleaning up the system, then i would have expected an ammendment to the idea or suggestion to better it. Not to abolish it completely.

Not that i think you genuninely are but for arguments sake.

Fair enough, in Rwanda it was bad, as pointed out above, in Spain it worked? so we're back to square one?

javaboy

Please confine talk of ID cards being the antichrist or leading to genocide to the conspiracy theories forum.

Duck's hoop

RedXIV wrote: »

But in my mind, you'd only protest against something like this if you have something to hide?

Benevolent dictator.

Heineken Helen

javaboy wrote: »

Please confine talk of ID cards being the antichrist or leading to genocide to the conspiracy theories forum.

Is it still ok for others to suggest bringing them in as a good idea? That's a bit of a onesided thread

RedXIV

Heineken Helen wrote: »

Is it still ok for others to suggest bringing them in as a good idea? That's a bit of a onesided thread

I was enjoying this debate too

Duck's hoop wrote: »

Benevolent dictator.

I just think it's a good idea that deserves attention, why get defensive over something designed to stop felons?

stepbar

I only hope that this doesn't make thing hard for old pensioners who have family members collect their entitlements. My granny is 94 and is not really fit to be going into town every week to collect her pension so my Mum does it for her. Now they both live down the country and TBH I wouldn't see any reason why they wouldn't give the money out to my Mum. I only hope they don't become pedantic about it and use a bit of common sense.

Biggins

Heineken Helen wrote: »

...In Rwanda ID cards were used to commit genocide... as in that other famous story we all know about.

If it wasn't id card, it would have been birth certs, if it wasn't birth certs it might have been by locally collected known information and so on....
Thats no reason to just knock ID cards completely for the rest of the world, just because some (vast minority in number) country abused its own system.

End of the day - those that are afraid of being found out, will fear the introduction of these cards the most.
To the rest of us, its an extra form of security that we can stick in our wallet and actually prove whom we are and that we are not a security concern, a possible fraud case, etc.

Duck's hoop

RedXIV wrote: »

I was enjoying this debate too

I just think it's a good idea that deserves attention, why get defensive over something designed to stop felons?

I really don't think I'd enjoy living in a totalitarian state Red.

And all the cliches about being fortunate to be able to have this discussion.

Capt'n Midnight

Should you need an ID card to walk the street ? NO

Should you need to prove who you are when you collect welfare ? YES
We all know that there is massive ongoing fraud there because some people reckon their chances of getting caught are slim to none.

You could go further and have a thumb print system so you can prove you don't just look like your "brother" and data could be shared to NI too and then ... and then...

RedXIV

Duck's hoop wrote: »

I really don't think I'd enjoy living in a totalitarian state Red.

And all the cliches about being fortunate to be able to have this discussion.

because you're being asked to show ID when claiming state benefits??? bit of an over reaction maybe

Heineken Helen

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Should you need an ID card to walk the street ? NO

Should you need to prove who you are when you collect welfare ? YES
We all know that there is massive ongoing fraud there because some people reckon their chances of getting caught are slim to none.

You could go further and have a thumb print system so you can prove you don't just look like your "brother" and data could be shared to NI too and then ... and then...

Well said. I'm on welfare at the mo. I'm not against showing my passport to collect and I don't think that's a bad idea. I think anyone who doesn't have some kinda photo id obviously isn't going anywhere anyway. BUT to bring in a national ID card especially for this is going down the wrong road.

Biggins, I already have my passport... the US immigration already have my fingerprints... Heathrow airport already has my retinal scan. I have NOTHING to hide and they've already taken from me. So stop with that debate cos it's just lazy and boring.

I've nothing to hide and I'm innocent and don't do anything wrong so don't treat me like a suspect... is it that hard to understand?

Biggins

Duck's hoop wrote: »

I really don't think I'd enjoy living in a totalitarian state Red.

And all the clichés about being fortunate to be able to have this discussion.

Please!
I'm against tight too government control as the next guy and will fight for maintaining the public's freedoms but your above statement is just streaching credibility and sense just too far!

Why are you even going on about the "Reds" and "Totalitarianism" when they don't even have this cards system yet???
Let stay on the crux of the discussion - not start seeing or forecasting oncoming "Reds" for crying out loud!

RedXIV

Biggins wrote: »

Please!
I'm against tight too government control as the next guy and will fight for maintaining the public's freedoms but your above statement is just streaching credibility and sense just too far!

Why are you even going on about the "Reds" and "Totalitarianism" when they don't even have this cards system yet???
Let stay on the crux of the discussion - not start seeing or forecasting oncoming "Reds" for crying out loud!

cough cough I think Red referred to me

Biggins

Heineken Helen wrote: »

Biggins, I already have my passport... the US immigration already have my fingerprints... Heathrow airport already has my retinal scan. I have NOTHING to hide and they've already taken from me. So stop with that debate cos it's just lazy and boring.

I've nothing to hide and I'm innocent and don't do anything wrong so don't treat me like a suspect... is it that hard to understand?

I totally agree with you!

Whats so hard to understand? You want state money, you have to prove whom you are. What better safer way than photocard ID?
No difference of opinion there between me and your good self.

(Why is it it's just "lazy and boring" to mention in the topic, further possible effective methods of cutting down on welfare fraud though?)

Again, the only people whom will fear card ID in the long run, will be those out to abuse the system!
...and quite frankly - STUFF THEM!!! The scam artists deserve what they (or won't with tighter control) get!

Duck's hoop

Biggins wrote: »

Why are you even going on about the "Reds" and "Totalitarianism" when they don't even have this cards system yet???
Let stay on the crux of the discussion - not start seeing or forecasting oncoming "Reds" for crying out loud!

You're right. My vision of an anarcho-syndicalist dystopia is a little OTT.

Biggins

RedXIV wrote: »

cough cough I think Red referred to me

Fair enough. My clear unequivocal stupidity again seeping in!

To start mentioning "Totalitarianism" though is just jumping too far ahead by any standards though!

I might actually agree with you if there is clearer stages that we can recognise or someone can point out
- but thats another thread topic.
As it is, for this current topic, it a step too far to grasp at.

Heineken Helen

Biggins wrote: »

I totally agree with you!

Whats so hard to understand? You want state money, you have to prove whom you are. What better safer way than photocard ID?
No difference of opinion there between me and your good self.

(Why is it it's just "lazy and boring" to mention in the topic, further possible effective methods of cutting down on welfare fraud though?)

Again, the only people whom will fear card ID in the long run, will be those out to abuse the system!
...and quite frankly - STUFF THEM!!!

I fear the ID card in the long run... I have not, am not, nor ever will be abusing the system so stop making statements like that which you evidently know nothing about.

People can use their passport or drivers licence... do you know ANYBODY who doesn't have one of those? They're certainly in the minority. It would be quite easy for them to prove they've never had one nor did they ever want one. And those people have to be exempt or simply get something signed in their garda station with their pic saying who they are. There's no need to start getting all carried away and suggesting we all need national ID cards :rolleyes: Just as a matter of interest, what information would YOU have on those ID cards?