Photo to be needed to collect welfare

Heineken Helen

serenity13 wrote: »

my only concern would be for the postal staff clerical officers the reprecussions they might get if they dont pay out. afterall its money dealing with in hard times.

a boost for the government though will be that lots of people will now be applying for passports who generally never had before so will income that way to the economy. canny move that way!

But most people on welfare can't afford the passports... there would have to be some kinda refund for them... and who would pay for that?:o Taxpayers.

Heineken Helen

Biggins wrote: »

In our particular case, the software was specifically written for the cresh.
Some of the variables was that it was high speed flow of movement at most times (as well as other specific data items). The only hold up would be on the rare security concern in relation to children.
Initially. at the very start of application (I'm being careful here with details) certain procedures had to be fulfilled. This was time consuming but once they were done the first time and then these photo-cards allowed much faster service there on in...

The customer didn't want to be going to a filing system every time they needed to be sure of visual identity verification.

but I'm guessing the creche didn't have to issue hundreds of thousands of cards to people and update hundreds of thousands of files

They have your file every time you go sign on... so next time you sign on, they take your picture and put it in your file and check it every time you sign on.

Duck's hoop

Heineken Helen wrote: »

But most people on welfare can't afford the passports...quote]

Don't take the P/ss. :pac:

Snake Plisken

Heineken Helen wrote: »

But most people on welfare can't afford the passports... there would have to be some kinda refund for them... and who would pay for that?:o Taxpayers.

well as they main culprits are the non-nationals they would have needed their passport to travel to the country in the first place! Also for the newly unemployed they are bound to have had passports in the good times!

This will hopefully stop the travellers making multiple claims in different post offices!

Heineken Helen

Snake Plisken wrote: »

well as they main culprits are the non-nationals they would have needed their passport to travel to the country in the first place! Also for the newly unemployed they are bound to have had passports in the good times!

This will hopefully stop the travellers making multiple claims in different post offices!

Yeh, I already said how most people already have a passport and/or drivers license. What about the other minority though? What do we do about them? Issue a card to EVERYONE when it's not necessary or simply prey on those who have never had a photo id and force them to carry one?

The Saint

Biggins wrote: »

In our particular case, the software was specifically written for the cresh.
Some of the variables was that it was high speed flow of movement at most times (as well as other specific data items). The only hold up would be on the rare security concern in relation to children.
Initially at the very start of application to the cresh (I'm being careful here with details) certain procedures had to be fulfilled. This was time consuming but once they were done the first time and then these photo-cards allowed much faster service there on in...

The customer didn't want to be going to a filing system every time they needed to be sure of visual identity verification.

The problem with a national computerized database system is that you'll probably spend more on it than you're likely to recoup from reducing fraud. These systems are notoriously fraught with problems and end up costing many times more than they were supposed to. Just look at the NHS computer database in the UK. Granted its bigger and probably has more bells and whistles on it but I wouldn't trust the government here to get it right or on budget. Also we would have to wait for such a system to be put into place which will likely come with cost overruns, delays and technical issues. Using existing forms of ID can largely resolve the issue fairly rapidly.

Biggins

Heineken Helen wrote: »

but I'm guessing the creche didn't have to issue hundreds of thousands of cards to people and update hundreds of thousands of files

They have your file every time you go sign on... so next time you sign on, they take your picture and put it in your file and check it every time you sign on.

I don't want to get off topic (mods will give out to me! Yikes!!!) but just to explain briefly (then I will drop it).
It was a very high security cresh with well known people and their kids. The system could cope with 50 if need be or 5000.
Any data updates could be done at the desk or internally later at office level, etc.
Basic low level staff and customers couldn't change in the initial photo ID at original application which always appeared on screen at doors to staff.

Back on topic.
As regards the costs, again can I mention that over a year or so, for the sake of a euro every week or two deducted from payments, this might pay for the more secure ID card that is issued.
If by good luck, the dole applicant gets another job in the meanwhile, all the better. I'm sure the state (if its any good) would be willing to accept any further non-payment of such ID photo-card charges as a loss they can accept.
After all, when the person is back working again, they will be paying taxes, stamps, etc into the national coffers again.

Biggins

The Saint wrote: »

The problem with a national computerized database system is that you'll probably spend more on it than you're likely to recoup from reducing fraud. These systems are notoriously fraught with problems and end up costing many times more than they were supposed to. Just look at the NHS computer database in the UK. Granted its bigger and probably has more bells and whistles on it but I wouldn't trust the government here to get it right or on budget. Also we would have to wait for such a system to be put into place which will likely come with cost overruns, delays and technical issues. Using existing forms of ID can largely resolve the issue fairly rapidly.

I agree with you that when a government takes over, its inversely leads sadly to a series of cock-ups (there's a number of long reasons for that but its further off topic).

Using traditional forms of ID though have been proven to be also fraught with problems such as the current false faking going on.
Moving with the times and technology, I see no short term harm at least in giving new methods a chance to see if they can make a difference.

Good discussion by the way

Biggins

Heineken Helen wrote: »

Yeh, I already said how most people already have a passport and/or drivers license. What about the other minority though? What do we do about them? Issue a card to EVERYONE when it's not necessary or simply prey on those who have never had a photo id and force them to carry one?

Thats good point.
Just to throw it out there as thinking fodder...

What if the the powers that be just started with their main areas of concern first?
They, the government, making it quite clear that its only a step by step process and invariably, everyone will eventually have this form of identity verification anyway in times to come.
Across all sections and divides.

I'm personally not saying this is the road to take but others might analyse the logic and fine tune it somehow and re-adjust it to suit current economic situations?

Capt'n Midnight

Biggins wrote: »

Yep, as far as I know under current regulations, if you have a FULL birth cert and proofs of residence (bills), etc you stand a good chance.

Birth certs aren't exactly a proof of who you are.
And proof of address can be got by going through green bins or illegal dumps

Passports are a little harder to get

Biggins

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Birth certs aren't exactly a proof of who you are.
And proof of address can be got by going through green bins or illegal dumps

Passports are a little harder to get

100 % true.

...not forgetting though that passports are issued based on the prior birth cert, photo signed id, etc anyway - so to a certain extent a passport is only as valid and good as the information that helped you obtain it?

Heineken Helen

Biggins wrote: »

100 % true.

...not forgetting though that passports are issued based on the prior birth cert, photo signed id, etc anyway - so to a certain extent a passport is only as valid and good as the information that helped you obtain it?

Yep, I come from a small town so I'd have a bit more faith in the system there cos the guards DO know everybody... but I really don't know how it works in Dublin

I suppose since certain people are considered more honest members of society than others... ie. doctors, nurses, lawyers (lol), priests, nuns, etc. that there should be something whereby, if the guards don't know who you are and won't sign for you (they shouldn't really if they don't know you) that you can bring one of them with you to verify who you are or something.

Thing is though, in order to sign on in the first place, I guess you really have to prove you are who you are (I'd to bring plenty of stuff with me, including ID obviously) so I don't see how anyone could have signed on WITHOUT some form of ID in the first place now that I think of it so really everyone on the dole should ALREADY have ID.

Hagar

Heineken Helen wrote: »

I don't see how anyone could have signed on WITHOUT some form of ID in the first place now that I think of it so really everyone on the dole should ALREADY have ID.

But isn't to the idea to make sure that the person collecting the cash is really the person who signed on in the first place?

Heineken Helen

Hagar wrote: »

But isn't to the idea to make sure that the person collecting the cash is really the person who signed on in the first place?

Yep, but what I'm saying is... ya know when ya sign on first ya need to give them a million things to prove it's you and that you need the money? Well I can't see how anyone could sign on without ID in the first place... therefore everyone on the dole should already have some form of photo ID... so no need for talk of national ID cards

nobodythere

Can someone explain to me how having identification proves you're resident in this country.

You should have to sign on weekly instead of monthly and not get it into your bank account, otherwise its well worth your while to fly over and back to get your dole

Oracle

I wonder is this measure really about the introduction of a national ID card? Is it the thin end of the wedge? The logic goes something like this...

1) Everyone will agree that photo ID is a good idea for collecting social welfare.
2) But complaints will be made that not everyone has photo ID.. leading to....
3) Those who haven't got any photo ID being supplied photo ID by the Dept of Social Welfare (already been called for by one welfare rights group) .. leading to...
4) Everyone choosing to have or is required to have a Dept of Social Welfare supplied ID to get a PPSN, welfare, prove identity, age etc.... (ie. the existing PPSN card is modified to include a photo)
5) The newly modified PPSN card with photo is effectively a national ID card.

Sam Vimes

grasshopa wrote: »

Can someone explain to me how having identification proves you're resident in this country.

It doesn't. This measure was to stop people living abroad permanently and having someone else sign on for them

Heineken Helen

grasshopa wrote: »

Can someone explain to me how having identification proves you're resident in this country.

You should have to sign on weekly instead of monthly and not get it into your bank account, otherwise its well worth your while to fly over and back to get your dole

It's about COLLECTING welfare... you have to collect it every week so now you have to show photo ID in order to collect it.

And it's not only the foreign kinda fraud they're trying to prevent. Some people may actually be working and getting other people to collect it FOR them... while they only have to take off one day a month to sign on.

Borzoi

Heineken Helen wrote: »

It's about COLLECTING welfare... you have to collect it every week so now you have to show photo ID in order to collect it.

The P.O. is still not even looking at the signatures on the payment slips and comparing them to the PRSI Card, so it comes as no surprise that they still don't ask for photo ID

Capt'n Midnight

Hagar wrote: »

But isn't to the idea to make sure that the person collecting the cash is really the person who signed on in the first place?

maybe it could be like the system in heathrow where you get photographed at the gate,

this is to prevent people impersonating someone else
the other part is to have evidence that can be used if need be