tractors,diggers,plant being reposessed

leitrim lad

hello all im in the plant game myself, as was 3 generations before me, and im noticing how many good respectable men and families have lost all of their machinery and their business, to the bullies, who break into your yard at night and (reposess) your machinery, it has not happened to my family, or me but it has happened to a very close friend of mine ,who is now in very bad health over it and is afraid that these bullies are coming back to clean him out again,
i do not belive it is fair for a bank, to orgainse a gang of bullies, to break into property that they are uninvited in on, and steal items of machinery that may be late with 2 payments, and the question has to be asked why do people pay insurance on their finances to be told by the bank that they are not covered, something has to be done about this fairly fast as i am aware of 2 men who ended it all ,over this kind of bullying by a bank, and i know of several other cases where good men who worked hard all their life ,tried to end it all over oweing a bank a couple of thousand,
i could go on for weeks thats how annoyed i am about these faceless organisations hitting the small man, but i want to see first if anyone else is sick of the bullies, and their auction.
all comments on the matter welcome, and anyone who has had a similar expierence with a lorry or so on is welcome to post aswell
many thanks leitrim lad

cork1

this shouldnt be allowed at all. fair enough theres no work machines all over the country are idle and theres no way of making repayments but if theyre going to take the machines you should present when they do it. if they break in and break and arm or a leg in your yard i bet they wont be long looking for you then. in some parts of america if someone comes onto your property without permission you can shoot them.

leitrim lad

well cork1 , its happening, i know of several cases where men had tractors or diggers nearly paid for, and missed the second last payment,
i know one case where the man behind <SNIP> brought his bully boys to an agri contractor, who had 2 tractors a mower a baler and a wrapper, they tortured the man on the street of his own house, and took his two tractors.
all over 3grand,he got a savage beaten and was told and i quote " if you paid your [EMAIL="fu@king"]fu@king[/EMAIL] bills we wouldnt have to come out and beat it out of you" now the man has no way of doing the silage for the summer and no way of making money,
he owed the bank 3grand and now they want 17k for fees and interest, and it cost 14k to send the bullies out to give him a beating,
i do understand that there are chancers out there that cannot afford the finance from day one but there are a majority of genuine cases where the bamks simply think they can walk across people, and its not on.

leitrim lad

another man had a hitachi 120 , 36 payments and only 3 left, he was cleaning drains for a farmer along the road, finished up at 6 and would be back at 8 the next morning, but when he came back the digger was gone, rang the gaurds,they laughed down the phone at him,
machine was sold in auction for just enough to cover what was owed on it and these "fees"
thats a mans livelyhood gone stolen , and the man was so bad he wouldnt answer the door to his friends, his hands were trembling, all because of them bast2rds.

peasant

Lads, I understand your anger at those practices, but please don't name or hint at the specific companies.

leitrim lad

ok peasent , at least you kinda understand where in coming from

leitrim lad

yes cork1 and shot they should be , them alleged baliffs are a lower form of human , i personally would leave more value on a dog that was after biteing me, than them scum

cork1

it that was my machine id insist the gaurds investigate the theft and i they were laughing and joking about it id make a complaint. they have no right what so ever to take that machine. whoever owns its better take the contrct he had with the bank to a solicitor quick. i reckon a judge would also see it as theft and hes now too scared to answer the door thats emotional trauma. compo settlements for that are big money theses days. the only way to stop it is speak out.

leitrim lad

thats not the only case of that similarity, i got him a good solicitor, poor man often done me a turn, and now he faces loosing his livelihood over a woman in a collections dept,
i know another case where a man had 2 machines, his name was on the one that was paid for, and the other hadnt his name, again he owed around 12k , so the "balliffs" (bullies) taught they were smart and took the machine that was paid for back to their auction,and tried to sell it, but he got sorted in the mean time with the bank,
and when he requested his machine be put back where they got it, they told him it was sold in their last auction.
they also told him if he came near their yard where the auction is they would have him aressted

they are the nice people who go on the news and advertise their auctions, nice friendly service , a croud of outlaws in my book

cork1

did you see the website for the auction theres some amount of gear there

leitrim lad

yes i seen it ,keep an eye on it the same stuff is advertised for the last couple of months, with the exception of a few new arrivals, one particular john deere hasnt sold for 2 years now,
them people have burned their btidges in every county in the country, and people are wiseing up to them, especially the inside bidders, i know one man personally who gets a days wages to sit in the croud and bid.

there giving auctions a real bad name

cork1

im surprised they sell anything at all. there must be people out there with money alright

leitrim lad

if you notice the website
alot of the stuff is on hold, i wonder why, some of it may have been taken in the wrong, some of it may be in the process of being paid for

but i do know that if them sh2thouses come into your yard and take a machine ,they expect you to pay thousands in so called fees along with the arrears to get it back, so it leaves people thinking that they are better off letting it go.

also it is a breach of contract for any bank to take a machine without your concent, and it is not illeagal to fall into arears, once you dont refuse to pay them in the future,

if the country knew that on time them (balliffs) would be on the dole along with the bankers,

thats what this new solicitor told my friend yesterday, and said not to worry about his machine ,it will be back soon along with a big sorry payment

cork1

i hope others will go and see solicitors too they shouldnt get away with this. i mean if you owe money on a machine at this rate i should just walk into your yard and take it.

leitrim lad

thats what they think they can do, but in reality they cant, i have been shown a book by the solicitor that i got for the neighbor, and he told me that there isnt a finance in the world that is secure, he could argue his way in and out of any of them ,with the help of this law book

as he put it the bank think they have binding contracts, but when all the loopholes are examined, the banks havent really got a leg to stand on

and the gardai cannot assist the baliffs in taking a machine, as the solicitor put it , its a civil matter between a bank and its customer, therefore any member of the gardai who assists one of these bullies can loose their job and by held responsible for the theft of the machine.

by loosing their job he later told me also pension, and other entitlements they may have as a gaurd as similar applies for any gaurd who commits a serious offence

i think of the people if the country knew their rights, it would be the baliffs that would be in hideing

jhegarty

leitrim lad wrote: »

well cork1 , its happening, i know of several cases where men had tractors or diggers nearly paid for, and missed the second last payment,
i know one case where the man behind <SNIP> brought his bully boys to an agri contractor, who had 2 tractors a mower a baler and a wrapper, they tortured the man on the street of his own house, and took his two tractors.
all over 3grand,he got a savage beaten and was told and i quote " if you paid your [EMAIL="fu@king"]fu@king[/EMAIL] bills we wouldnt have to come out and beat it out of you" now the man has no way of doing the silage for the summer and no way of making money,
he owed the bank 3grand and now they want 17k for fees and interest, and it cost 14k to send the bullies out to give him a beating,
i do understand that there are chancers out there that cannot afford the finance from day one but there are a majority of genuine cases where the bamks simply think they can walk across people, and its not on.

And what did the guards do about the assault ?

leitrim lad

sweet f all,

the man gave a statment and has heard nothing about it since

that particular man is now left with a baler ,wrapper and mower and no tractors,
hows he ment to do the silage season now,

jhegarty

A civil action for the assualt would be the first thing he could do.

leitrim lad

i have a freind who is a top brass solicitor ,and i put him in touch with a few of them men so far, and they seem to be coming back to them selves, with what he is doing for them,

he seems to think that they will get their machinery either back or replace with new, and a settlement for the stress and all that,

he also tells us that the majority of finance documents can be argued in court for their legality

david

The bank owns the machine until the last payment has been made with a Hire Purchase agreement. They are fully within their rights to reclaim their plant/machinery from opportunist farmers living beyond their means.

Welcome to the recession, there are very many qualified people out there that cannot find employment. Why not educate yourself or flip burgers in McD's like the rest of us instead of whinging about not being able to dig your drains. Lose that chip on your shoulder.

leitrim lad

your compleetly wrong david,

we are on about the bullies the banks sends out who beat up people and slander people , and steal machinery, and before you cintradict yourself again it is happening,

the bank is entitled to a machine on a lease but not hp, and on a lease if the machine is more then one third paid for the bank must get a court order before they can reposess it,

and alot of the men who fall victims to the bullies are owed substainsail amounts of money but are awaiting a long hard process of getting it, here are examples for you

delayed reps money, delayed payment from builders, and civil engineering companies, and even in a few cases delayed payments from county councils

i know a fair bit about finance my self and what i am entitled to do and what the bank is entitled to do ,and thank god im not in that position, but im well aware of it ,i could have 40 machines /lorries/tractors financed at any time,

so get your facts straight before you start stickinfg up for the scum who destroyed the country in the first place

mikemac

I was going to ask about court orders. I thought you need one to seize property and you've explained it here.
And I though each area has an appointed baliff, so a baliff for your county area.
Or maybe I'm thinking of the sheriff. Yes we do have sheriffs in Ireland who enforce court orders. But they work in Dublin and Cork, they are county registrars for everywhere else

I didn't know private collection firms were getting involved.

leitrim lad wrote: »

he seems to think that they will get their machinery either back or replace with new, and a settlement for the stress and all that,

he also tells us that the majority of finance documents can be argued in court for their legality

Summer could be over by the time is over and courts don't sit in August afaik. He'll need compensation for loss of income too

tinofapples

he owed the bank 3grand and now they want 17k for fees and interest, and it cost 14k to send the bullies out to give him a beating,

These are the people the state are bailing out then so that our economy can recover :mad:

cork1

leitrim lad wrote: »

your compleetly wrong david,

we are on about the bullies the banks sends out who beat up people and slander people , and steal machinery, and before you cintradict yourself again it is happening,

the bank is entitled to a machine on a lease but not hp, and on a lease if the machine is more then one third paid for the bank must get a court order before they can reposess it,

and alot of the men who fall victims to the bullies are owed substainsail amounts of money but are awaiting a long hard process of getting it, here are examples for you

delayed reps money, delayed payment from builders, and civil engineering companies, and even in a few cases delayed payments from county councils

i know a fair bit about finance my self and what i am entitled to do and what the bank is entitled to do ,and thank god im not in that position, but im well aware of it ,i could have 40 machines /lorries/tractors financed at any time,

so get your facts straight before you start stickinfg up for the scum who destroyed the country in the first place

yep and aswell as this NOBODY can enter your property if they dont have a court order or else its trespassing. just out of curiosity david you dont work for a bank do you?

mikemac

david wrote: »

Welcome to the recession, there are very many qualified people out there that cannot find employment. Why not educate yourself or flip burgers in McD's like the rest of us instead of whinging about not being able to dig your drains. Lose that chip on your shoulder.

Nowadays farmers in some schemes do mandatory courses so they are qualified too

It's a cyclical business and many who are missing payments now would be flush with cash at the end of summer as contracting jobs are completed.
But bills gotta paid so if they can't make payment now the solution is for the bank and the farmer to sort something out. Negotiation is the answer.

The solution is not to seize machinery and then wonder why payments can't be made. How are they supposed to work?

I'm sure some farmers are irresponsible and too much of a risk. But most aren't and if they are missing payments now they may well have made them in four months with extra interest too.

Jonty

leitrim lad wrote: »

,

so get your facts straight before you start stickinfg up for the scum who destroyed the country in the first place

He probably works for a finance crowd

leitrim lad

thanks cork1 and mikemac excellent points i couldnt have put it better myself,

i would say he has something to do with a bank, or finance outfit, i know a finance rep who rang me up lately looking for me to deposit money with his bank at a high interest rate, i asked him if i deposited the money and then missed a payment on something what would happen,

his answer,and i quote,

i have helped you before and i am helping you now, if you miss a payment thats your problem we will simply take the machine off you, and if we cant get the particular one you missed the payment on ,there are plenty more scattered around the country, with your name on them so we will simply have to take one of them.
but your money will be safe for 5 years on deposit with us, and it will also make you a weeks wages ,as much as 3 or 4 of your machines would.


i hung up the phone at this stage, and i tought to myself thats a nice way to help someone, but lucky enough i wont be loosing any plant, and if my solicitor friend and neighbors get their way the only ones loosing plant will be the banks, theres a few big compo claims coming up and i would keep an eye on the news over the next few months for them

mikemac

leitrim lad wrote: »

thanks cork1 and mikemac excellent points i couldnt have put it better myself,

i would say he has something to do with a bank, or finance outfit,

What are you implying??
I work for a bank, we are all saints I tell ya

He's probably from a finance company, giving high interest loans to people who have irregular income...........like farmers of course.
Act like your best friend giving the loan but if you miss two to three payments, there is no negoitation, straight to court. And it costs over 10k to go to the High Court and you know who will be paying that bill

Smart Money & GE Capital were shown for doing this on Primetime, that's mortgages though but same procedure.

leitrim lad

good one, mikemac

i know mortgages and finances may seem different but they are very similar, only main difference is if you mortgage the family home you dont earn an income from it ,but if you have a tractor or digger financed you can make a living with it, but you cant really live in it.

i know men who are considering boycoting that auction, and protesting outside it, and they have good reason, i know of another pr1ck who is going around the country in a lorry with the bullies and he is transporting the machinery for them,

he goes into the local every weekend and boasts about whos plant he took this week and starts shouting around whos name is on the list for next week, any wonder he always has 2 black eyes.

and certain men are considering putting him off the road shortly via accidental forcement

mikemac

leitrim lad wrote: »

i know mortgages and finances may seem different but they are very similar, only main difference is if you mortgage the family home you dont earn an income from it ,but if you have a tractor or digger financed you can make a living with it, but you cant really live in it.

/bankers hat on
There many people who overextended themselves with mortages and while it's fashionable to lash the banks (and dead right too), we will see properties seized. But again that's done through the courts and there is even a two year moratorium in place. You are given every chance but it's not going to work out for everyone.

But seizing a man's machienry right before summer? It's like seizing a fisherman trawler and telling him to pay up fast. That post about 3k debt turning into 17k makes my blood boil. :mad:

leitrim lad wrote: »

he goes into the local every weekend and boasts about whos plant he took this week and starts shouting around whos name is on the list for next week, any wonder he always has 2 black eyes.

Many people are ashamed of their issues, I know if I was in debt, I wouldn't want the village to know it. Or I'd be sorting a solution but you can't have your business broadcast around

leitrim lad wrote: »

and certain men are considering putting him off the road shortly via accidental forcement

Sure wasn't it the Irish who invented boycotting in Co.Mayo

Charles Stewart Parnell, in his Ennis Speech proposed that, rather than resorting to violence, everyone in the locality should refuse to deal with him. Despite the short-term economic hardship to those undertaking this action, Boycott soon found himself isolated—his workers stopped work in the fields and stables, as well as the house. Local businessmen stopped trading with him, and the local postman refused to deliver mail.

leitrim lad

very good point mike mac

i nearly went bust myself in the late 1990s i had a machine that i owed £13,500 on at the time ,no mobiles in them days, i telephoned the finance co and they told me not to worry for atleast 3 months, little did they tell me that my £13,500 at the time would turn into £49,900 when i went to clear it 2.5months later,

so a simple solicitors letter and the bank draft for the £13,500 and i got a dispersal invoice 1 month later ,they settled for £400 at the time , "late fees" they called it, and after that i swore i would never let a banker (horrible word like the people who practise it) get the better of me, and they havent,

so i know myself what its like to be introuble, and no one knows the meaning of being owed money better than i do.

i think a boycot will have to take place and rte will have to be informed not to be in visiting the auctions ,advertising these black market people and their sneeky antics,

and did you ever hear such a load of bull in all your life and i qoute " we have buyers here today from poland, spain ,portugal, and all over europe", the majority of the stuff is there 6 months- to a year hasnt sold 10-12 auctions, and spain is worse than we are the amount of machinery banks are selling in spain is a world record, so why would they want to bring in more,

redvictoria

Would love to know the solicitors name, having bank problems myself.

leitrim lad

did you get the pm red victoria, i just hope youre not a banker or a baliff trying it on.

david

Not quite a banker/financier/thug/repo man no. :rolleyes:

I hear an awful lot of these sob stories from property developers who hit it big in the boom, lived well beyond their means and now they struggle to make repayments on their treasured Range Rovers.

It is common business practice to try to gear your financing activities evenly. i.e. for every euro of equity your business holds you shouldn't exceed a euro of debt capital/non-current liability. For a sustainable enterprise you should prepare your own forecasts and focus on organic growth; not hop on the construction industry bandwagon at first opportunity just because Paddy down the road got a new fleet of mini diggers etc. Bank shortsightedness and the ease at which they issued large debentures/lease purchase schemes is absolutely no excuse for bad financial planning.

Plant/vehicles are rapidly depreciable consumables. There is always a high risk of getting into negative equity.

I think most people missed the point of my last post. It wasn't to promote aggressive reposession tactics in fact I am strongly against any form of intimidation by hired goons or breach of contract. I just have no sympathy for anybody in the construction industry who is up sh1t creek at the moment.

leitrim lad

yes david but what about the man who wasnt on the band wagon, he was on the silage wagon, seasonal work and the "developers" drove his interest rates sky high,

he now has no silage wagon for the summer , but he has plenty of bruses from the bullies, and still has the repayments , and probably a young family ,

and probably never built a house in his life or even worked on the buildings

dont forget the poor farmer david the back bone of ireland

david

Well thats fair enough but what has changed for the common farmer? The recession has hardly hit them as hard as the developers. As you said yourself the farmer will always have grass/silage to cut. I'd personally never buy anything knowing that I couldn't afford the repayments following slight interest rate fluctuation. That just doesn't make sense.

redvictoria

david wrote: »

Well thats fair enough but what has changed for the common farmer? The recession has hardly hit them as hard as the developers. As you said yourself the farmer will always have grass/silage to cut. I'd personally never buy anything knowing that I couldn't afford the repayments following slight interest rate fluctuation. That just doesn't make sense.

Interest rates have nothing to do with present peoblems, if anything they have helped. Many purchase decisions based on advice / projections by the people ( Government and Banks ) who were paid to know. Bottom line we make a mistake, we pay - they make a mistake WE pay.

leitrim lad

i see your point , david

but if you need and i mean really need a new baler or tractor because the old one is spun out and not worth fixing,

and you go to the bank , you cant really help it if some gubbain has interest rates drove up

just to built a line of matchboxes in the back of a bog meadow on the corner of the local village, and they still havent sold, why doesnt the bank reposess them, rather than let the government buy them

our work is seasonal and that cant be helped neither, and so is the cash flow

laurence997

I heard of a guy who knew his tractor was goin to be repossesed and put a spanner in the gearbox. Was sold at auction and after a few hours the whole gearbox had to be replaced (by john deere) costing more than the tractor was worth.

Why damage the tractor when it doesn't cost the banks It only hits the next poor guy down the road.

leitrim lad

why go to the auction and buy another mans tractor,

i know of a good few cases like that laurence997

there isnt a machine in that auction that isnt tampered with somehow,

one example is a hitachi ex135usr with 4081 GENUINE hours, the last time i moved it for the previos owner it had a quick hitch, an ignition, hyd oil, and 11,000 hours, it is in that yard since last august

no bidders,and i wonder why, it was also resprayed about 4 months before they took it, so it stands out

martinr5232

laurence997 wrote: »

I heard of a guy who knew his tractor was goin to be repossesed and put a spanner in the gearbox. Was sold at auction and after a few hours the whole gearbox had to be replaced (by john deere) costing more than the tractor was worth.

Why damage the tractor when it doesn't cost the banks It only hits the next poor guy down the road.

Because anybody who buys repo equipment is only taking advantage of someone elses misfortune.

And they deserve all they get.

leitrim lad

very true martinr5232

i could buy the whole bloody yard up there, but i wouldnt give the dirty little bast@rd the satisfaction

and i see they are expanding into the printer,fridge trade aswell as plant.

cork1

if they got a total boycott they wouldnt repo gear cause then they would have to store it

jhegarty

I don't think you understand how it works. The less money the repo company get for the stuff the more the original person still owes. The only one hurt by lower prices is the person who had their stuff repossessed.

Builderfromhell

Just stumbled across this very interesting topic.

I have not heard of people having their machinery re-possessed but a rural friend of mine who does a lot of contracting told me of a lot of farmers who had complained of their tractors and other machinery being stolen. The rumour is that the farmers are saying this because they are embarrased to admit that their machines were re-possesed.

On a seperate issue, I don't see anything wrong with buying plant, machinery or cars at auction. I heard of a guy who bought a Land rover 00 reg. for 500 euro as no one else was interested in bidding.
All goods are getting cheaper including property. I don't see anything wrong with buying now if you can afford it. You don't know the reason the items were re-possesed.

leitrim lad

Builderfromhell wrote: »

Just stumbled across this very interesting topic.

I have not heard of people having their machinery re-possessed but a rural friend of mine who does a lot of contracting told me of a lot of farmers who had complained of their tractors and other machinery being stolen. The rumour is that the farmers are saying this because they are embarrased to admit that their machines were re-possesed.

On a seperate issue, I don't see anything wrong with buying plant, machinery or cars at auction. I heard of a guy who bought a Land rover 00 reg. for 500 euro as no one else was interested in bidding.
All goods are getting cheaper including property. I don't see anything wrong with buying now if you can afford it. You don't know the reason the items were re-possesed.

wrong wrong and wrong,

if you buy someones misfortune you deserve nothing but the worst of luck,

builder from hell would you like if your home was reposessed and i bought it for 1/8 the value off the bank ,and left you on the side of the road with your young family, and the other 7/8 of the balance.

i know of 2 other cases which have happened since i last posted here where 2 different mens yards were entered in the middle of the dark night and quite a substainsail amount of machinery taken from each man

2004/2005 machines with 5 year finance in place 2 payments remaining, and you have the cheek to tell me the banks are fully within their rights to send in these scum into peoples yards to steal property that they dont even own in the first place to auction it

leitrim lad

another thing i will gladly point out is that according to a banker very high up in one of the main banks,

tells me that if you owe 90% of the price of the machine you will be more or less left aside because they cannot recover the full balance via auction,

however they are targeting the people who owe 10-20% of the balance ,mainly because they will recoup more than what is owed in the auction,

but they seem to forget firstly that they need a court order to reposess anything that is more than 1/3 paid for, let it be a lease or hp,

and secondly they forget who is paying their wages in the first place , firstly with the interest paid on the loan to the bank, and secondly with the bail out from us the tax payers

they also forget that they are semi state companies now ,due to their mismanagment and wrekless trading, which in turn gives any tax payer the right to more or less what ever he/she wishes to propose to them,

Slig

When I was growing up on the home farm my father was a contractor. He had a 10 year old tractor and a forage wagon to collect the silage. If it was too hot you took the door off the cab (or it fell off)

My uncle is a contractor aswell. But every tractor he owns has air con. He can cut silage in 2 days that took my dad a week. Because he made the investment in better machinery he got more business.

The Celtic Tiger era was all about over extending and over borrowing. If you did you made money and lived comfortably, If you didnt the price of everything was so over inflated that you couldnt afford a house, car or even a McDonalds meal. Everyone over borrowed INCLUDING the banks. The only difference is that they have a louder voice closer to the governments ear and they are getting a bail out. They will get away with these shadow repossessions of machinery and move on to houses and at the end of the day they will make their money.

I know its not fair but the little man is always walked on and it happens in every country the only difference here is that our government make no effort to conceal their actions because they dont have to.

leitrim lad

slig
its good to see some one else talking sense, apart from the few we had here saying it was alright to buy another mans misfortune,

there is a way to stop your machinery being taken and it involves a solicitor, and there is some tricks that can be used in according with a legal binding contract,

anyone who wants can pm me and i will give details of legalities that can be used in your defence as long as the moderator allows it,thanks mod

i know if the thing keeps going the way it is and these bullies keep robben machinery i will be the only contractor left in my general area this year, and according to other men they cannot now get any finance or loans because there machinery was taken and they are now black listed,

and i wouldnt be able to handle a quarter of it between tractors and diggers and lorries ,let alone the whole area, im the only turf man left , and not far off the only digger/baler man left, and every other lorry around me accept roadstone has been auctioned

leitrim lad

this croud of bullies are getting worse

i know of a man in the midlands area ,who had a rockbreaker and 7 buckets stolen from his yard ,thursday night friday morning, between 3-6am

they are now in that auction yard ,to be sold, and no finance used on them in the first place to even buy them,

he had a machine working on the n6 ,that was late with 2 payments ,so the bullies couldnt find the machine ,they decided to enter his yard after watching to make sure nobody was home, and stole what they considered enough to cover the 2 payments and their costs, the breaker was worth about 20 grand, and the buckets about 1500-1800 each, 7 of them,

and he owed the bank about 5 grand in arrears, again the gardai were very help ful ,was aswell off not bothering to ring them atall, he was with the solicitor and he can get the items back when he clears the arrears,

but the auctioneer who has no say in the matter whatsoever(only the part of a thief) told him if he fails to pay what they want his buckets and breaker will be sold and his machine will be lifted also

that was a nice conversation outside mass this morning, i can tell you all that particular auctioneer is coming to a sad sorry end with all the men thats out for him

cork1

this is absolutely crazy! if you go your gear gets taken if you dont go out and you see them they thump you and then your machinery is taken. what happens if you break into theyre yard and take your stuff back it the same thing? but i bet youd be arrested.