Liverpool - Chelsea...Round 9.....FIGHT!!!

JæKæ

redout wrote: »

Do you not think that after conceding the first goal this evening that Rafa could have changed tactics obviously knowing that if it happened once then it could happen again given the space Ivanovic had was shocking. I think Giles explained it well and showed that its a flawed system after the game in the analysis.

In fairness Ivanovic wasn't standing still for the second one. He covered a lot of ground to get to it. Not easy to stop that

CHD

JæKæ wrote: »

In fairness Ivanovic wasn't standing still for the second one. He covered a lot of ground to get to it. Not easy to stop that

He did very well imo

Mr Alan

lads the zonal marking thing shouldn't even be up for discussion. it works-when applied right, it works. end of discussion.

if someone concedes a goal from man marking (as happens numerous times every weekend) do people say "oh man marking doesnt work blah blah blah" no, they dont.

Paul Tergat

So, talking about the zonal marking system again

This probably comes up maybe twice a year, 3 times at most. I wonder how many goals Pool concede from set pieces, oh yeah, maybe twice a year, 3 times at most. Hint anyone?

It's only brought up when Pool concede from set pieces and the fact its only discussed a couple of times a year shows you it works

Also, lol at people who actually pay attention to what the RTE pundits say.

Paul Tergat

Oh, and also, Chelsea were great tonight. I also thought that Pool played well enough, just Chelsea and in particular Essien bossed the midfield. They removed the link between Gerrard and Torres which is what you have to do to stop Pool being at their best.

Pool have a massive massive task facing them and I think Chelsea are well capable of just shutting the game out at the Bridge. Id say Mikel and Essien will play the return leg as without Terry they'll need that bit more defensive cover from midfield.


What is great to see though is some genuine exciting attacking football in this late stage of the Champions League. I didnt get to see any highlights of the Arsenal match but the Utd, Barca and this game had some great attacking football in them.

NaiveMelodies

Mr Alan wrote: »

lads the zonal marking thing shouldn't even be up for discussion. it works-when applied right, it works. end of discussion.

if someone concedes a goal from man marking (as happens numerous times every weekend) do people say "oh man marking doesnt work blah blah blah" no, they dont.

It may "work", But it doesnt win titles..

Jazzy

only1stevo wrote: »

It may "work", But it doesnt win titles..

really? f**k me i thought it was the key ingredient. the caramel in my mars, the cream in my egg, the cheese on my burger.

ingenious. now i know. never did before. tell that to rafa and everyone else at melwood would ya please. they havent figured it out yet...............................................................................................................................................................................................................

newballsplease

Jazzy wrote: »

really? f**k me i thought it was the key ingredient. the caramel in my mars, the cream in my egg, the cheese on my burger.

ingenious. now i know. never did before. tell that to rafa and everyone else at melwood would ya please. they havent figured it out yet...............................................................................................................................................................................................................

the butter on my toast, the bread in my toaster,the jam in my dougnut, the girlfriend on my c**k, the engine in my car, the car in my garage, the plant in my garden,the tar on my driveway, the curtains in my window......

good win chelsea

ROCKMAN

papagormo wrote: »

hah!:D cheers frisbee.

i lay down the gauntlet, try putting ivanovic into a rhyme..
granted its no "who let the drogs out" or "steve gerrard gerrard" but its an attempt.

I'll try


Zonal marking is been blamed
But don't be lame

Don't be a dick,
It was all down to IVAN-O-VIC


I'll get my coat:D

Dubliner28

This probably comes up maybe twice a year, 3 times at most. I wonder how many goals Pool concede from set pieces, oh yeah, maybe twice a year, 3 times at most. Hint anyone?

Tim Cahill v Liverpool PL
Lescott v Liverpool FA Cup
IVANOVIC x 2 last night
Hreidarsson v Portsmouth away

It doesnt win titles as the lad says

eddiehead

ROCKMAN wrote: »

I'll try


Zonal marking is been blamed
But don't be lame

Don't be a dick bitch,
It was all down to IVAN-O-VIC


I'll get my coat:D

iregk

Great game. I thought Liverpool did play decent stuff just Chelsea were fantastic. Lampard and Essien were monsterous in the midfield. Essien in particular took Gerard clean out of the game. What a player and how much the blues have missed him.

That said, this is still only half time. 3-1 away from home is a great result but Liverpool will start the 2nd leg at 100mph and really go for it. I think Chelsea will need to hold tight and ride it out for a bit at the bridge until things settle down. This tie is not over!

Karmafaerie

Sickened.

Fair play to Chelsea and Hiddink though.
They played the perfect game, and to be honest were more than deserving of the 1-3 victory.
Can't complain in the slightest.

I think it's over now, but I know we can still do it.

It only takes 6 minutes for Liverpool to score three goals in Europe.

Believe.

prendy

chelsea were different class last night, essien was never more than 3 yards from gerrard. Drogba was excellent as was lampard. I have no complaints about the result as chelsea were worth the win.

I think we have left too much to do in the second leg, even with Terry gone i think Chelsea will shut up shop.

Spud83

Mr Alan wrote: »

Do i not think Rafa should have changed to a totally different system mid match because we failed to do what we were meant to do right, in a champions league quarter final?

No redout, no i don't. I think Rafa should have stayed with the tried & tested system that has us about the tightest defence in England, particularly from set pieces.

Giles exposed himself tonight when he talked about how tactics didnt really have anything to do with football.....tbh, i'm starting to worry a little bit about the guys mental health.

They kept talking about how we concede so much from set pieces yet Rafa is too stubborn to change. Quite confusing when you take into account that we very very very very very rarely concede from set pieces & our goalie has won the golden gloves 3 years on the trot for conceding the least amount of goals in the league.

I think the Golden gloves are based on number of clean sheets. As I know united and Chelsea conceded less last season than Liverpool. I would wager one of them conceded less the previouse two years as well.

jackdaw

Am I DREAMING !!!!!


pinch me ...

jackdaw

But i am a bit worried about Barça ... assuming we get past Liverpool of course...

LuckyLloyd

only1stevo wrote: »

It may "work", But it doesnt win titles..

lololololol

words fail me sometimes.

LuckyLloyd

jackdaw wrote: »

But i am a bit worried about Barça ... assuming we get past Liverpool of course...

If ye bring the level of performance produced last night ye should give them a very decent run for their money imo.

monkey9

Dubliner28 wrote: »

This probably comes up maybe twice a year, 3 times at most. I wonder how many goals Pool concede from set pieces, oh yeah, maybe twice a year, 3 times at most. Hint anyone?

Tim Cahill v Liverpool PL
Lescott v Liverpool FA Cup
IVANOVIC x 2 last night
Hreidarsson v Portsmouth away

It doesnt win titles as the lad says

So it comes up five times a year! Thanks for confirming zonal marking works so!!

monkey9

Well, that was some read! I don't know what was more embarrassing. The result or X In The City's posts.

Ok, some points. Everything LuckyLloyd said about zonal marking, i agree with. Why it's even a point of debate is bizarre. It works. it's proven to work. Liverpool make it work. Sometimes it doesn't, like everything in football.

People asking why Hyypia didn't start. Were they asking that question beforehand?? I didn't see any posts in this thread about an hour before the game when the teams were announced along the lines of "why the hell isn't Hyypia playing? Skrtel is poor and i'm extremely worried about the use of Liverpool's zonal system method. It's a flawed system and the like of Ivanovich will exploit that. Rafa out!"

Martin Skrtel is one of the best defenders in world football. Yep, i know people will come in with their beloved 'LOL' posts, but he is. The fact that the media never highlight him but hark on about Vidic etc doesn't make him not so. He is!

keane2097

Can somebody explain more about this notion that the defender is at a disadvantage to the attacker in the zonal system?

The argument seems to be that the attacker can just go and attack the ball without worrying about the man who's marking him.

Surely the same logic applies the other way with the defender not having to worry about the man he's marking and free to just go and attack the ball?

Highsider

The whole zonal debate is unreal. Do you think if we had conceded from man to man marking last night that the media would be going over it with a fine toothcombe? of course they would'nt. Many of these "expert" pundits are players from teams who never even knew what zonal was and of course people are afraid of things they don't know. When Livrpool where on that run and for most of the season in fact there was'nt a peep about zonal and now just because we have conceded a couple from corners it's the most evil football tactic of all time.:rolleyes: Imo it's just another Rafa bashing tool now the contract situation has cleared up and we are in a race for the title. Zonal works it's just the players did'nt make it work last night. Just as man to man works also but from time to time defenders make mistakes.

ShiverinEskimo

keane2097 wrote: »

Can somebody explain more about this notion that the defender is at a disadvantage to the attacker in the zonal system?

The idea is that the attackers running into the 6 yard box have momentum and added power whereas the static defenders who are stood on the spot are relying on pure straight jumping power - which will more often lose out to a running jump.

The quality of the ball in is of course central to taking advantage of a zonal marking system.

And the zonal marking was taken advantage of twice, by the same player from a similar position. So while zonal marking works against plenty of other teams the fact is it cost liverpool two very important goals on that night. So yes, zonal marking works for you week in, week out against other teams - but it just *possibly* cost you your place in a major tournament so I think most of the media are really asking not if it's an option- but is it worth it for the times it is exploited.

jesus_thats_gre

eZe^ wrote: »

There's no team in world football more capable at shutting down a possession and attacking based team than Liverpool.... I'd definitely be more afraid of facing Liverpool than Chelsea...

This is true..

Unfortunately, we didn't play to our strengths last night and played a far too open game.

Add Essien to Chelsea, subtract Mascherano from Liverpool, throw in some shambolic defending from set pieces and you have the recipe for Liverpool's downfall.

Fair played to Chelsea though, played extremely well and capitalised on everyone of our shortcomings on the night.

Am really looking forward to the second leg now. Tis very much all or nothing and it is going to be one heck of a ride.


And can you lot please stop blabbering on about Zonal marking. Liverpool have consistently been up the top of the table in terms of their defensive record for a few seasons now. Sometimes you cannot allow for individual errors, freak event or penalties.



Look at it another way.

No opposition fans rate Arbeloa or Aurelio as full backs. Carra and Skrtel are rated but no where near as highly as Vidic, Ferdinand, Terry, Carvalho and a few others.

Despite the fact that we seem to have second rate individuals across our defence, we are consistently in the running for most clean sheets and best defensive record.

The same people are also the same that argue that Zonal marking is significantly flawed and that we concede more goals that we would if we employed man marking.

So, we are now at the situation where we have second rate defenders, use a flawed system for marking at set pieces yet consistently have one of the best defensive records in the league and the most clean sheets. You can't have it both ways lads.

I am more inclined to believe that we have good to very good defenders and it is the organisation skills and attention to detail of our manager that is responsible for our defensive abilities and that lapses in concentration and individuals not doing what is expected of them, not the marking system, that are responsible for conceeding stupid goals from set pieces.

kida

The reason I think Chelsea do well last night is Hiddink turned the game into a Premiership type match. He didn't play a tactical game based on the fact there was 2 legs. He wanted to win the match not get a good result.

my 2c

iregk

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

Despite the fact that we seem to have second rate individuals across our defence, we are consistently in the running for most clean sheets and best defensive record.

Thats more down to the ultra defensive bank of 6 often 8 that liverpool play with in front of goal and not the individual players talents.

joe123

Didnt really read much of this thread as the zonal marking debate is a bit daft to be honest.

But did anyone here Ronnie Whelan after the game say "Liverpool fooled everyone into thinking their a good side with wins against an out of form Madrid,United and Villa who are gone in the league". Now is he right in the head at all? Talking out of his arse imo.

herbieflowers

I think Liverpool really missed Mascherano last night, whatever about the zonal marking.

Karmafaerie

joe123 wrote: »

Didnt really read much of this thread as the zonal marking debate is a bit daft to be honest.

But did anyone here Ronnie Whelan after the game say "Liverpool fooled everyone into thinking their a good side with wins against an out of form Madrid,United and Villa who are gone in the league". Now is he right in the head at all? Talking out of his arse imo.

Never has an ex Liverpool player dropped so far in the eyes of the fans since becoming a pundit.

monkey9

Ronnie Whelan is very talented at being a sh!t pundit

DeadSkin

joe123 wrote: »

Didnt really read much of this thread as the zonal marking debate is a bit daft to be honest.

But did anyone here Ronnie Whelan after the game say "Liverpool fooled everyone into thinking their a good side with wins against an out of form Madrid,United and Villa who are gone in the league". Now is he right in the head at all? Talking out of his arse imo.

Worst he said was along the lines of why Rafa goes zonal marking, is beacuse everyone else doesn't do it. If everyone else adopted zonal, Rafa would just drop it, that's just the type of man Rafa is!!!!!.

Must stop myself from listening to the fools after a game, bad enough we lost, but to have to listen to sh!te afterwards.

Nuri Sahin

Had a very bad feeling since the draw was made.

Last night's match reminded me of the Holland v Russia game in the Euro's, when the Dutch never turned up.

Saying that, credit given when due.. Chelsea were excellent.

On our front we simply produced a very sloppy and complacent performance, which they exploited to ruthless effect.

Just nullified Stevie and Alonso and thus cutting off our only real supply, as Torres couldn't do much with the few scraps that he had. We didn't react to Gerrard being man marked quick enough at all.

As I said last night Aurelio had a complete mare, one of his key strengths is his distribution and that was non-existant. Riera was awful too and so that left wing was just a mess for 90 mins. Lucas offered nothing in the slightest and when in possesion was always too slow and eased off the ball continously. Mascherano's influence and style of play was so sorely missed.


The goal was the only positive, some lovely football and an awesome finish. Same goes for Chelsea's third. Even Ballack got in on the act

I think we could go on to win at Stamford Bridge, we have done so before so it's not impossible. But will we win on aggregate, is another thing. The tie is firmly in Chelsea's hands and no matter the result, still expect Chelsea to go through. We are fairly lucky to be somewhat still in the tie with how Chelsea played.

monkey9

We were never gonna Chelsea, not with thing about teams who knock Real Madrid out go to get knocked out by the eventual champions!

That's the only reason we lost!

x in the city

Mr Alan wrote: »

oh god, your trend of embarrasing yourself continues

first off, SAF uses a mixture of zonal marking & man marking as far as i know. as do many of the top managers in world football.

names please apart from Benitez, anything he says can be taken with a pinch of don carlos salt

secondly, liverpool as far as i'm aware, have conceded 3 goals all season directly from corners. the first was an Alonso og against Middlesborough, the second two came tonight.


blah blah, I don't suppose you remembered Liverpool's zonal marking debacle for Cahill and Lescott.lol

Zonal marking me ass. Is this a kopite phrase?

Thirdly, Liverpools defense has been quite outstanding since the arrival of Benitez & the introduction of zonal marking at the club. Reina claiming the golden gloves (conceding the least amount in the league) the last 3 years is testament to this.

Everton have conceded less goals than Man U since the turn of the year, do you hear Everton harping on about Zonal marking, meh.

Finally, pool being "gash" at set pieces was something new-despite what you may like to claim.

What we saw tonight was simply zonal marking being carried out poorly, similarly to the way every weekend up & down the PL we see man marking being carried out poorly. it was not proof of zonal marking not working or it being an inferior style, despite wat the RTE embarrasments might like to make out.

now...

Chelsea were awesome tonight & were good value for their win.

We can win by 3 clear goals at Stamford Bridge, we are more than capable, see the recent Utd match as an example....or we can match the score line tonight & take it to extra time & penalties BUT both these are unlikely. Tonights result could prove to be a blessing in disguise, but it was still hard to take.

3 goals at the bridge, lol. And even if Liverpool score a goal or two which is not impossible, Chelsea will most certainly kill the game off with a goal or two themselves.

lol @ everton fans mocking Liverpool.:pac::pac:

Mr Alan

seen this on another site. i guess we can reduce the number of goals conceded from a corner against a zonal marking system by one.

first goal last night:

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=240595.0;attach=168942;image

our standard zonal marking, two banks of four.

second corner:

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=240595.0;attach=168944;image

certainly doesn't look like zonal marking to me.

my guess would be either we were instructed to change the system (which i very much doubt) or the corner was taken quickley before we had a chance to get in position.

Karmafaerie

Mr Alan, that is clearly an obvious photoshop.
I'd say Rafa was up all night on his PC working on it.

DSB

Mr Alan wrote: »

Do i not think Rafa should have changed to a totally different system mid match because we failed to do what we were meant to do right, in a champions league quarter final?

No redout, no i don't. I think Rafa should have stayed with the tried & tested system that has us about the tightest defence in England, particularly from set pieces.

Giles exposed himself tonight when he talked about how tactics didnt really have anything to do with football.....tbh, i'm starting to worry a little bit about the guys mental health.

They kept talking about how we concede so much from set pieces yet Rafa is too stubborn to change. Quite confusing when you take into account that we very very very very very rarely concede from set pieces & our goalie has won the golden gloves 3 years on the trot for conceding the least amount of goals in the league.

Haha I'd say it'll be a long time before I agree so much with 1 of your posts as this one.:D Spot on.

Highsider

rarnes1 wrote: »

lol @ everton fans mocking Liverpool.:pac::pac:

Small time ain't small enough a word for them :pac:

thorbarry

i think that game last night made up for all the booring liverpool-chelsea games over the past 3/4 years

mirwillbeback

mirwillbeback wrote: »

Lampard to boss midfield, especially with Essien back and Chelsea to go through by more than 1 goal.

* be back in 8 days to gloat *

as promised.

thegen

As a neutral I thought both teams went for it last night. Chelsea looked nervous in 1st half but came out in 2nd a deserved to go through. Have to disagree about Lampard bossing midfield. He is a poor mans Gerrardand still looked like it last night despite two goals. Grumpy and Giles are losing it time to put them out to graze.

iregk

thegen wrote: »

He is a poor mans Gerrardand still looked like it last night despite two goals.

Yay, lets drag up another Lampard -v- Gerrard debate!

monkey9

mirwillbeback wrote: »

as promised.

Your username becomes you, sir!!

thegen

iregk wrote: »

Yay, lets drag up another Lampard -v- Gerrard debate!

No its not up for debate, Gerrard is a country mile better end of.

BTW I'm not a Liverpool supporter before you go looking for your high horse;)

iregk

thegen wrote: »

No its not up for debate, Gerrard is a country mile better end of.

BTW I'm not a Liverpool supporter before you go looking for your high horse;)

I'm not looking for any high horse. You have one opinion I have another. Simple really.

_blank_

thegen wrote: »

No its not up for debate, Gerrard is a country mile better end of.

Gerrard is not a "country mile" better than Lampard ffs, how can any football fan even think that?

There is very little between them, Gerrard may shade it on versatility, but then again, Lampard could be considered good enough to play in and hold down only one position for his entire career.

gucci

Des wrote: »

Gerrard is not a "country mile" better than Lampard ffs, how can any football fan even think that?

There is very little between them, Gerrard may shade it on versatility, but then again, Lampard could be considered good enough to play in and hold down only one position for his entire career.

Can you imagine them both in the one team....WOW that would be awesome, England must win every game at a stroll :pac::pac::pac:

Childish I'm sorry

thegen

gucci wrote: »

Can you imagine them both in the one team....WOW that would be awesome, England must win every game at a stroll :pac::pac::pac:

Childish I'm sorry

Was in London last year and talking to a West Ham supporter who told me Lampard liked to be the gaffer in midfield and therfore never really performed for England when Gerrard played beside him, felt inferior were his words. Maybe thats the reason.