Interaction with Women

dfx-

Thaedydal wrote: »

Different is not lesser or bad it's just different, still it is nice to know I am not alone

or better

Nevyn

Xiney wrote: »

However, I think exposure to exclusion leads women to be isolatory against other women. And I think this is the crux of what Das Kitty and others are experiencing - rather than be rejected, she would rather not put herself out there.

And rather then be excluded themselves other women play the game, toning themselves down and exclude others. tbh I tired of that in primary school.

Nevyn

dfx- wrote: »

or better

If something doesn't interest me it doesn't, other thing that do are going to there for seem better to me. I never assume I am better then anyone until they unfortunately do something to make me think less of them, for example being rude and by excluding people.

shellyboo

Thaedydal wrote: »

And rather then be excluded themselves other women play the game, toning themselves down and exclude others. tbh I tired of that in primary school.

With me though, the toning down is not intentional. I'm a much softer version of myself when I'm around women, especially ones I don't know. I don't go out of my way to fit into a certain mould - it's just two different sides of my personality.

neuro-praxis

Maybe it's not a gender thing - maybe it's just a personality thing.

I don't think I've ever "clicked" with a group of girls in any work situation, but then I don't go looking to make friends at work. The couple of friends I have picked up via work over the years are just bonuses.

I have experienced all the crap cited above, but man, I just love women. I have about a dozen or more very close female friends and I just adore them and get so much richness out of my knowing them. There are so many things you can do and express with women that I find I cannot do with men. Some of my female friends are so supportive, thoughtful and kind - I seriously could gush here.

And yet I love men too! All through secondary school and college I had many more male friends than female (that has now shifted in my late twenties). I used to think men were funnier than women, and when we were younger that was true, but now that we're older I find my female friends hilarious...the banter is mighty! I think they've got the confidence now to say the jokes they were thinking all those years but were afraid to say.

Men can be very loyal friends...no bother that we haven't met up for six months...let's go paintballing and for beers on Saturday! Also some men would lie down in the street to protect you - that whole older brother instinct kicking in.

I guess what I'm saying is I just like people.

littlebug

I've always found that making an effort to get to know individuals rather than be part of a group makes a huge difference. Coffee or lunch with 1 other person and you will find some common ground. The larger the group then the topic of conversation will be the lowest common denominator. I've become good friends with people that I could easily has assumed I had nothing in common with simply by making an extra effort on an individual basis.

In all honestly the bitchiest bitch I ever did come across was a woman who declared to get on better with men and the lads all loved her. Out of earshot of the lads the snide remarks and derogatory comments to me (and any other women who were involved with any of "her" men) were appalling. I'm not saying anyone here is like that but she just stands out in my mind as one of the few people ever that I just could not click with.
In general I just like talking... to anyone, anywhere:o

littlebug

... although I will admit some of the mummy snobbery and competitiveness and the school gate conversations have on occasions left me quite gobsmacked and wanting away from there asap.

Wibbs

OK as a guy, I would get on with strange women(leave it!:)) more than I would with men, though I would have equally close men and women mates. Then again, in either genders, they would have traditionally "male" and "female" traits regardless of gender. I would be equally adrift with macho men as I would be with girly girls. I know what you mean about the bad interaction stuff, but then again it's easier for me as a guy, maybe because I just don't get it directed at me as much.

MJOR

The work scenario is always tricky, sometimes the dynamics in the office,shop factory or wherever lends itself to exclusion or a feeling a not quite fiting in all the time. I think its up to both parties to make the effort. If either is unresponsive or just not interested there isn't a whole lot one can do

beks101

This is funny. I'm the exact opposite, get on better with women than I do men and always have.
Maybe it's what you're used to - I've no brothers, all girls' primary and secondary, lots of female cousins...and my Dad is a gent but a really quiet man, whereas my Mum wears the trousers, so maybe that goes some way to explaining it.

I don't think I've ever really bonded with a guy on an emotional level, even past relationships (another point in case - few and far between and never long lasting) I've never really gotten to that level. I just empathise with women in a way I don't really seem to with men.

The male friends I have I've found the conversations are factual-based...the news, politics, films, changes at work etc, whereas with my female friends it's relationships, feelings, that sort of thing.

cuckoo

Xiney wrote: »

I think those of us who have experienced "cliquey" women will agree that we were excluded without them getting to know us, on the basis that we were outsiders.

And...am i alone in feeling a little more dejected (before i get to the 'shrug my shoulders and move on' phase) because it's fellow women that i'm feeling excluded from?

There's a part of me that feels like it has been hardwired from birth to form connections with women. It's not that i'm spending the day following the herd around - but i want the herd to let me know if it's moving on to the next watering hole, and to not exclude me from the chit chat about herd members weekends/etc.

Das Kitty

shellyboo wrote: »

With me though, the toning down is not intentional. I'm a much softer version of myself when I'm around women, especially ones I don't know. I don't go out of my way to fit into a certain mould - it's just two different sides of my personality.

This exactly.

I do tone myself down in this way, but it's nothing more than using the appropriate language and subjects for a specific situation. It's kind of like you wouldn't go in to a job interview effing and blinding and talking about the bender you were on at the weekend! Like it or not, everyone has to do this pretty much every day.

I suppose the thing is that I love people, men and women alike, I'd just like to be more confident with my own sex and maybe get a bit more of what I missed out on by having no sisters. I know I put out a vibe of being unfriendly as well (because I fear rejection) and I suppose that's counter productive.

The Sweeper

I miss having a close female friend - all of my old female friends live very far away from me now. The thing I find with my more recent female friends is they will always side with their bloke over siding with you, whether or not he's in the right. I'd rather see them stay out of it, remain a friend to me and agree that sometimes we can all disagree, but no, they never do. They cling to himself like a life raft in a storm. Makes you wonder why they're surprised then when their life falls apart if he leaves them.

Wibbs

beks101 wrote:

The male friends I have I've found the conversations are factual-based...the news, politics, films, changes at work etc, whereas with my female friends it's relationships, feelings, that sort of thing.

Men take longer to get into that stuff and require more trust to do it, but we do get into it. We're generally more emotionally protective of ourselves, though a fair few men never let others in, or just simply don't feel the need to share as much I suppose.

Minesajackdaniels wrote: »

The thing I find with my more recent female friends is they will always side with their bloke over siding with you, whether or not he's in the right.

Yes what is it with that? Now guys, especially in the early delicate stage of a relationship can pull that too, but not nearly to the same degree.

LouOB

beks101 wrote: »

This is funny. I'm the exact opposite, get on better with women than I do men and always have.
Maybe it's what you're used to - I've no brothers, all girls' primary and secondary, lots of female cousins...and my Dad is a gent but a really quiet man, whereas my Mum wears the trousers, so maybe that goes some way to explaining it.

I don't think I've ever really bonded with a guy on an emotional level, even past relationships (another point in case - few and far between and never long lasting) I've never really gotten to that level. I just empathise with women in a way I don't really seem to with men.

The male friends I have I've found the conversations are factual-based...the news, politics, films, changes at work etc, whereas with my female friends it's relationships, feelings, that sort of thing.

Snap here - 2 sisters, all girls school etc
When I have tried to talk or make friends with men they always take it the wrong way.

Its v rare to find a 'person' who you can converse with on common interests and ideas. But for you to find that person in a guy, with a purely platonic relationship is even more rare. Fair play to everyone who has a good friendship with a male. But I have not come accross ANY relationships with men and women who are just very close friends.
As there are alot of things you can do with girls you cannot do with men. The only advantage of having a male friend is asking them the occasional MAN questions.

Re bitching on bitching - c'mon
We are commenting on how certain groups make us feel.
(thats a full stop at the end of that sentence btw)

DancingDaisy

A number of people have made the comment that they have never come across purely platonic male/female friendships. I am really good friends with a number of guys, some of which I have been friends with since childhood, and it has always been platonic. They aren't attracted to me and I'm certainly not attracted to them. Maybe it's because we have known each other so long it's like a brother/sister thing, but it is definitely platonic. They come to me with their problems, and I go to them with mine. We also have the same interests and tastes in things.

As a group of guy's they have a number of platonic friendships with girls, (I know they are platonic because when any of them do meet girls they are attracted to I get to hear all about it!) and that's how I have met my close female friends.

I think that after bad experiences all through my school years I'm just very very wary of other girls, it's sad I know, but you do learn to protect yourself, the whole once bitten twice shy attitude. I'm thankful for the girl friends I have now. It is amazing to have someone to go shopping with and cry over silly movies with and the other things that my male friends generally avoid.

I have started to think that I become friends with a type of person now, generally people that I'm come into contact with through other friends.

shellyboo

Das Kitty wrote: »

This exactly.

I do tone myself down in this way, but it's nothing more than using the appropriate language and subjects for a specific situation. It's kind of like you wouldn't go in to a job interview effing and blinding and talking about the bender you were on at the weekend! Like it or not, everyone has to do this pretty much every day.

Yep, this. It's instinctive... I find women to be a lot more judgemental than men, so I'd reveal less to them of myself. Men are much more easy-going and open-minded (in my experience) so I share more with guys than I do girls.

I have three very close male friends, and I count myself very lucky to have them. I'd tell them lots of things I wouldn't tell my female best friend, because I feel she's harsher - that's more to do with her own personality than her gender, though.

I guess maybe I fear criticism more when it comes from another woman? I just find them a lot more judgemental than guys.

LouOB wrote: »

But for you to find that person in a guy, with a purely platonic relationship is even more rare. Fair play to everyone who has a good friendship with a male.

I can genuinely say that I have only ever found that "you're the same person as me" kind of relationship with men. And those relationships are always platonic for me.

Xiney

It seems to bear some resemblance to self monitoring.


The following is a half baked conceptualization of the situation based on the above psychological theory. Take it with a grain (or a whole pinch) of salt:

Perhaps, high self monitoring individuals are more desirable amongst groups of women than amongst groups of men, because societal correctness has more bearing on women than men. And perhaps, those of us who would normally identify as low self monitors notice this more than those who are natural highly self monitoring. Some, like Thaedydal, don't give a fig and act the way they want to, effectively continuing their low self monitoring behaviour. And other low self monitors attempt to self monitor, yet find this somewhat uncomfortable because it goes against their first nature to be consistent across situations.

??

Nevyn

Actually I disagree with that. I do self monitor a lot.
I am aware of the impact I can have on people and socail situations.
But there is level to which I will not self restrict esp on an on going biases.
I am me, but I do have good manners part of that is trying to make people feel at ease your company but if doing that makes me too uneasy and feel I am not being honest with myself and with others then I will opt out, and leave people to it.

LouOB

Xiney wrote: »

It seems to bear some resemblance to self monitoring.


The following is a half baked conceptualization of the situation based on the above psychological theory. Take it with a grain (or a whole pinch) of salt:

Perhaps, high self monitoring individuals are more desirable amongst groups of women than amongst groups of men, because societal correctness has more bearing on women than men. And perhaps, those of us who would normally identify as low self monitors notice this more than those who are natural highly self monitoring. Some, like Thaedydal, don't give a fig and act the way they want to, effectively continuing their low self monitoring behaviour. And other low self monitors attempt to self monitor, yet find this somewhat uncomfortable because it goes against their first nature to be consistent across situations.

??

I agree with Synders concept but totally disagree with your view of it

I tend to think people who do not conform have higher self-monitor
As they can see the diff groups or diff behaviours of others (that a person would have to shape into to 'conform')
Just because you dont want to reflect the behaviours of a group (ie dont give a fig re them) doesnt mean we dont know how to converse. Some people just dont want to lower themselves by bending their attributions to suit others

Please revist your discussion
I expect 2 A4 pages in the morning

shellyboo

LouOB wrote: »

Just because you dont want to reflect the behaviours of a group (ie dont give a fig re them) doesnt mean we dont know how to converse. Some people just dont want to lower themselves by bending their attributions to suit others

But equally, just because someone adapts their manner when in different groups, doesn't mean they're "lowering themselves" or "bending" to suit others. That's quite condescending.

Xiney

self monitoring isn't politeness and so on, though. Politeness isn't really a factor of personality, and self monitoring is about altering one's personality to suit a situation. Like everyone is a high self monitor in certain situations: job interviews, meeting the inlaws for the first time. But some people are high self monitors ALL the time.

Das Kitty

Xiney wrote: »

self monitoring isn't politeness and so on, though. Politeness isn't really a factor of personality, and self monitoring is about altering one's personality to suit a situation. Like everyone is a high self monitor in certain situations: job interviews, meeting the inlaws for the first time. But some people are high self monitors ALL the time.

This is definitely true. I know a girl who is married and her husband has never heard her break wind or seen her shave her legs, she calls it the "illusion of perfection." If that's not keeping yourself monitored all the time I don't know what is!

Xiney

LOL

that's not exactly self monitoring in the sense of the psych theory either...




but it is insane. threatening to fart on my OH is one of my most persuasive bargaining tactics!

shellyboo

Das Kitty wrote: »

This is definitely true. I know a girl who is married and her husband has never heard her break wind or seen her shave her legs, she calls it the "illusion of perfection." If that's not keeping yourself monitored all the time I don't know what is!

I think that's just keeping a bit of mystery in the relationship... it's nice!

Das Kitty

I know yeah but I'm sure it extends to what she says and how she behaves also, I wouldn't know for sure because she's never let her guard down once in all my dealings with her. She only said the leg shaving bit and then someone else got the wind breaking bit out of her.

The look I got when I said what my husband had seen me do :eek:

But I like your theory Xiney and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

Nevyn

self monitoring is about altering one's personality to suit a situation.

That is something everyone does, the difference is to what extent and how aware people are of it. Some times it is needed as it is part and parcel of the grease of the socail graces esp at family and formal gatherings and to get along in work enviroments but some take it to extremes where it is almost like they are being dishonest imho.

Xiney

Yes, everyone does it to some extent. Sometimes you have to look around you to figure out how to act in a social situation. People on the lowest end of the self monitoring scale are probably those with no social skills at all - this is a pathology.



However, in the middle, in the normal range, there still exists a spectrum.

Das Kitty

shellyboo wrote: »

I think that's just keeping a bit of mystery in the relationship... it's nice!

Love me warts and all says I!

I think it's healthy to a guy to know that it takes effort to look a certain way, Imagine if your fella never let you see him shave or left the room to let off. Twould be weird.

Anways, way off topic

shellyboo

Das Kitty wrote: »

Love me warts and all says I!

I think it's healthy to a guy to know that it takes effort to look a certain way, Imagine if your fella never let you see him shave or left the room to let off. Twould be weird.

Anways, way off topic

Anyways, new thread

*goes off to start one*