Christmas bonus - gone!!

stevelknievel

brianthebard wrote: »

Must be, I got the christmas bonus and wasn't on the dole as long as you suggest.

I was out of work for 5 months xmas just gone, and I got no bonus. Before anyone attacks me, I'm not complaining. Just making a point.

skearon wrote: »

Neither can I, they whole lot should have reduced when you consider the economic facts:

Increases given last October assumed 3% inflation, we've had 4% deflation so a 7% cut could have been applied without affecting your spending power.

€4 per week is less than the cost of a single pint of beer!

This is a fair point, but another fair point is that not everyone on the dole has a pint of beer every week that they can give up. I know I didn't.

seamus wrote: »

Yes, because people earning €2k a month have €1200 in liquid cash. Everyone lives within their means. Just because someone gets more than the dole, doesn't mean that they're flush with cash. One of the constants of economics - whether it's a nation's finance, a company's finance or an individual's finance, there is one truth - their spending will always expand to fit their means. Someone getting €2k a month is spending it, and they're not spending it wastefully.

That depends on what you call wastefully. Is a holiday wasteful? Is buying brand name clothes instead of dunnes wasteful? Is sky+ wasteful? Is a Londis sandwich instead of home-made wasteful? Is a bar of a chocolate after it wasteful?

I was on the dole for quite a while, and it was tough. I didn't go out every week, I didn't go for weekends away, I didn't eat out. I pretty much had no social life. My point is, my finances changed, and my lifestyle changed to adapt to them. But I still needed help from my friends and family. Some people aren't fortunate enough to have that, so lets not tar everybody with the waster brush.
But, to be fair folks, Christmas is 8 months away. I dunno what the uproar is about. I reckon most people who want work will have it by then. And anyone who doesnt want work doesn't deserve the bonus.

Quartet

aare wrote: »

Regardless, people cannot survive in our climate without a home, let alone be in a fit state to work again, , and forcing them into inadequate housing in times of financial instability creates cycles of poverty that can takes decades, and generations to break, so that rented accommodation needs to cost whatever it costs and not be used as a "backdoor" to cuts in the rate of SW in hard times, or cushioning rises in the rate of SW pre-election....

To Clarify the reply in relation to this was in response to the suggestion that everyone should be provided with Public Housing (Ref revious post)

Allah Hu Akbar

That People should be in council houses and not paying huge rents.

Nobody is suggesting that people dont have somewhere to live ffs.

We need to get rid of this idea of the Welfare state providing everything - it doesnt - this money is coming from an increasingly squeezed minorirty of tax payers

This source of revenue is shrinking and the country cannot simply afford to pay the hugly elevated rates of benefit and provision provided in this country

If people have to undertake min wage jobs then so be it..

what I earn is just a few quid more than that provided by the dole...I do it because I am not going to sit on my ar** and do nothing

We will not be able to afford the huge increase in numbers claiming the current levels of welfare benifits

Everyone inc workers and claimants need to wise up to this

There is No Giant Cookie Jar in the Sky

aare

Quartet wrote: »

If people have to undertake min wage jobs then so be it..

Don't you get it?

Right now, there ARE no "min wage jobs" for anyone...that's one of the reasons why they have just withdrawn the "back to work allowance" for the PAYE sector...

...and even if there were, nobody can, realistically, take a job that will not cover the cost of accommodation...because they would not be able to do, or keep it while sleeping in a cardboard box...

What people are losing sight of is that, as dramatic as it is, this recession may be very, very temporary...and if you place people in a position where they lose too much the cost of the recovery may be many times what it needs to be...

Quartet

aare wrote: »

Don't you get it?
Right now, there ARE no "min wage jobs" for anyone...that's one of the reasons why they have just withdrawn the "back to work allowance" for the PAYE sector...and even if there were, nobody can, realistically, take a job that will not cover the cost of accommodation...because they would not be able to do, or keep it while sleeping in a cardboard box...

What people are losing sight of is that, as dramatic as it is, this recession may be very, very temporary...and if you place people in a position where they lose too much the cost of the recovery may be many times what it needs to be...

Yes I do get it!

McDonalds are Currently Hiring! Yes there are Jobs!

See Here

Nobody HAS to live in a cardboard box - that is just use of dramatic effect....
We all have to live within our means! If you cant afford something or cant live within your budget contact MABS (Money Advice and budgeting Srvice) etc. The money is simply not there for everyone to live in Cloud Cuckoo Land!!!!!

Its very simple We cant afford to pay all existing and the huge increase in numbers entering the social welfare system. The tax base cannot sustain these increases indefinitly

Tax payers will have to make dramatic cuts, ditto the rest of the universe

There is No Massive Cookie Jar in the Sky

aare

Quartet wrote: »

Nobody HAS to live in a cardboard box - that is just use of dramatic effect....

Unfortunately it isn't...I watched it happen with my own eyes in London in the 80s...

If you cannot obtain enough money to rent a property that is realistically available to you then you have no choice but:

• Live in a cardboard box
• Sleep in a shop doorway
• Squat

What do you think happens? That the housing fairy waves a magic wand and makes it right?

The reason I get so frustrated is because, particularly when it come to homelessness, perfectly ordinary decent people go blind to reality, presumably assume the fairies will take care of it, and as a result, stand by and watch while real lives get shattered by, easily preventable, homelessness...often for ever.

Quartet

aare wrote: »

Unfortunately it isn't...I watched it happen with my own eyes in London in the 80s...

If you cannot obtain enough money to rent a property that is realistically available to you then you have no choice but:

...The reason I get so frustrated is because, particularly when it come to homelessness, perfectly ordinary decent people go blind to reality, presumably assume the fairies will take care of it, and as a result, stand by and watch while real lives get shattered by, easily preventable, homelessness...often for ever.

aare - this is way off the thread (ref welfare provision & living within your means and providing for yourself)

we are not talking homeless people....remember we do have public housing

This is not London and btw I worked in London in the 80's so I was there!

We are not talking about people with addiction or other issues...

Politicians use this method of building a support base ie kissing babies syndrom - its not really suitable for logical discusion

To recap the discusion is on welfare payments not hoary chestnuts ....

There is No Massive Cookie Jar in the Sky

aare

Quartet wrote: »

we are not talking homeless people....remember we do have public housing

As I said..

aare wrote:

...The reason I get so frustrated is because, particularly when it come to homelessness, perfectly ordinary decent people go blind to reality, presumably assume the fairies will take care of it, and as a result, stand by and watch while real lives get shattered by, easily preventable, homelessness...often for ever.

We already had a massive shortfall in public housing before the recession that will only get bigger now...and we have no public housing provision for the single homeless at all.

That all adds up to no *AVAILABLE* public housing, regardless of the legal provision on paper...so the only way to have a roof over your head is to pay the going rate in the private sector, which, for many (and certainly anyone with a family in an urban area) is absolutely impossible on minimum wages. So a lot of people cannot survive if they take those jobs, totally independent of the level of social welfare.

Which means that we pretty soon will be talking "homeless people" and families, some of whom will never fully recover, some of whom may not even survive...

Incidentally, it was as much you, as me, (and a few others) who brought housing into this thread and kept it here...after such a run of debate between us without even beginning to snipe personally, I would rather like to keep it that way? Wouldn't you?

Quartet

Agreed with you no snipping or other direct issues its importnat to keep the matter in hand

The issue of housing provision was responded to as a matter of clarification of private vs public benefits and costs of public housing being made available for everyone (see prev Posts)

Not as a full new discusion and digression of the existing thread

Currently
Where social welfare recipients are in private accommodation there is the provision of rent allowance (inc single people)

Where there is public housing then it is a case of being assessed and being eligible

I know of many people who have availed of both and nobody was / is living under a bridge

Minimun wage does not mean you cant afford accommodation just that people cant always live beyond their means. A family with both partners working on min wage will be able to provide for needs

We need to get away from this idea that we cant look after ourselves and become dependant on the nanny state and bringing children up in this culture.

The importance of people living within their means cannot be over stressed and that means paying rent for what you can afford and in areas you can afford...


Ref London in the 1980's I personally worked two jobs to make ends meet and lived in a YWCA hostel Since then I have lived in all types of private rented accommodation and was very glad to have a roof over my head.

There will always be specific cases of housing need but this should not be the norm.

There is No Massive Cookie Jar in the Sky

johnnyskeleton

stevelknievel wrote: »

But, to be fair folks, Christmas is 8 months away. I dunno what the uproar is about. I reckon most people who want work will have it by then. And anyone who doesnt want work doesn't deserve the bonus.

Also, if you take the total budget 09 (i.e. October and April changes together) the increase of €6.50 p.w. brought in in the Oct budget is more than the loss of the christmas bonus in April (equivalent of €3.92 p.w.)

aare

Quartet wrote: »

Agreed with you no snipping or other direct issues its importnat to keep the matter in hand

Quartet wrote: »

Where social welfare recipients are in private accommodation there is the provision of rent allowance (inc single people)

Which must be maintained at levels really adequate to renting the private sector to avoid homelessness.

Quartet wrote: »

Where there is public housing then it is a case of being assessed and being eligible

Currently there is an huge short fall between the people assessed as eligable for public housing and available public housing, and that will increase with unemployment and repossessions... leaving the people (almost all families, pensioners and the disabled) caught in the shortfall "between the stools" will cause homelessness and must be avoided at all costs.

Quartet wrote: »

I know of many people who have availed of both and nobody was / is living under a bridge

Which is why we have to strive to maintain and increase current levels of all forms of social housing to meet the rising demand, or else cause homelessness.

Quartet wrote: »

Minimun wage does not mean you cant afford accommodation

Actually, at least at current urban prices, it usually DOES mean you can't afford accommodation, even as a single person, certainly as a family, and all the denial in the world will not bridge that gap, which can easily lead to homelessness.

Quartet wrote: »

just that people cant always live beyond their means. A family with both partners working on min wage will be able to provide for needs

Ah c'mon. in a situation where it is almost impossible for one person to find a job at minimum wage WHERE THE FECK are you going to find two? Let alone pay for childcare provision AS REQUIRED BY LAW.

Quartet wrote: »

We need to get away from this idea that we cant look after ourselves and become dependant on the nanny state and bringing children up in this culture.

Sure, but maybe put that (minority)attitude revision off unti people at least have a sporting chance of providing for themselves again...not now, while it is impossible for so many, that's just rubbing the nose in...

Quartet wrote: »

The importance of people living within their means cannot be over stressed and that means paying rent for what you can afford and in areas you can afford...

Sure, but it isn't about that, it's not about unable to pay for a better or worse area, it is about not being able to afford *any* legally adequate, and available, rental properties in the private sector.

Quartet wrote: »

Ref London in the 1980's I personally worked two jobs to make ends meet and lived in a YWCA hostel Since then I have lived in all types of private rented accommodation and was very glad to have a roof over my head.

I'll raise you working an 18 - 20 hour day, and a 7 day week, at my own business doing something I ABSOLUTELY HATED and had not natural talent for, while living (illegally) in my workshop in a converted optical factory in ECI...because I barely had enough money to live like that, let alone rent anywhere.

Quartet wrote: »

There will always be specific cases of housing need but this should not be the norm.

Absolutely...but avoiding "specific cases" becoming "marked trends" should be the name of the game...

badabinbadaboom

Quartet wrote: »

Yes I do get it!

McDonalds are Currently Hiring! Yes there are Jobs!

See Here

The positions will be filled by people with degrees in catering, there are no jobs for people like me!!
Every job that is available now, the competition is feirce!! I have no qualms about working minimum wage or cleaning up other peoples ****, that is what I know, that is how my jobs have always been and I cannot find a job right now!
Jobs there, but filled in an instant!

Quartet

aare

'nuff said

We are getting into a virtual scenario here and are digressing again for the main import of the thread

We will not be able to afford the huge increase in numbers claiming the current levels of welfare benefits

Everyone inc workers and claimants need to wise up to this

QED

There is No Massive Cookie Jar in the Sky

aare

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Also, if you take the total budget 09 (i.e. October and April changes together) the increase of €6.50 p.w. brought in in the Oct budget is more than the loss of the christmas bonus in April (equivalent of €3.92 p.w.)

Not when you factor in the €11 pw additional payment towards rent supplement since October, + the 8% to be deducted from existing rent supplement to try and force claimants to force their landlords to negotiate the rent down (sorry, but to me that is just bizarre in it's unfairness as basically, the cut only applies to anyone too vulnerable to bully their landlord into decreasing their rent...for instance, pensioners, and the disabled with long term leases).

The is what they are calling a "stealth decrease" in welfare rates.

Quartet

badabinbadaboom wrote: »

The positions will be filled by people with degrees in catering, there are no jobs for people like me!!
Every job that is available now, the competition is feirce!! I have no qualms about working minimum wage or cleaning up other peoples ****, that is what I know, that is how my jobs have always been and I cannot find a job right now!
Jobs there, but filled in an instant!

I applaud your attitude...keep at it and best of luck in the search:)

aare

Quartet wrote: »

I applaud your attitude...keep at it and best of luck in the search:)

Ditto

Demonique

super_furry wrote: »

There's eight months between now and Christmas.

Do people expect to still be on the dole by then and if so, when do you think you'll be able to find work?

It's not just the dole that's been affected, its the state pension and disability payments as well, people who are either too old to work or too ill to work, who won't have a job by Christmas

Demonique

alanmurphy83 wrote: »

So you should get the same amount of money as someone that is working?

LOL, I bet the sponging CHAV types would love that

aare

Demonique wrote: »

It's not just the dole that's been affected, its the state pension and disability payments as well, people who are either too old to work or too ill to work, who won't have a job by Christmas

That is something else worth underlining in terms of all the cuts (including rent supplement - it's not just about the unemployed), but in terms of the Christmas bonus...times really are so hard for everyone that I doubt if most even mind giving up that one payment this year?

Thoughts?

Demonique

Fred83 wrote: »

I think we need a thatcher type person to tell the e.u that ireland shoundnt pay for kids that dont even live in the country

Definately, if a child isn't resident in the State they shouldn't be in receipt of Child Benefit, even if they're the child of an Irish person currently working in the State

Demonique

NTLsucks wrote: »

did u ever think someone of us might'n t want a job? there is such thing as the right not to work in soceity you know. what are people who dont want a job supposed to do for xmas now that the bonus is gone?

They can go drown themselves in the Liffey or the Shannon or whatever is their closest river like the sponging scum that they are

aare

Demonique wrote: »

Definately, if a child isn't resident in the State they shouldn't be in receipt of Child Benefit, even if they're the child of an Irish person currently working in the State

Good grief...ARE they in receipt of child benefit under those circumstances?

If so, I admit that DOES seems a little over generous...to say the least.

partyatmygaff

aare wrote: »

That is something else worth underlining in terms of all the cuts (including rent supplement - it's not just about the unemployed), but in terms of the Christmas bonus...times really are so hard for everyone that I doubt if most even mind giving up that one payment this year?

Thoughts?

Why does it have to be hard for everyone? Why do you NEED to spend extra during christmas, just skip all the insane spending one year if you cant afford it. Live within your means and nothing above that.

How about an Alcohol, present, party free christmas one year of our lives, it wouldnt kill me (Or should I say never did affect me) nor anyone else.

Sure fine, heating bills, but besides that NO EXTRA COSTS if you live sensibly.


(Amazing thing is most of these people who would die if they didnt "celebrate" christmas aren't even christians so I dont even know why they bother with christmas at all, hypocrisy, but thats for another day and another forum)

Hagar

Is there no humanity left anywhere?

partyatmygaff

NTLsucks wrote: »

did u ever think someone of us might'n t want a job? there is such thing as the right not to work in soceity you know. what are people who dont want a job supposed to do for xmas now that the bonus is gone?

They can go live on their own little remote Island and drink all the seawater they like and eat all the soil they want, no way in hell will anybody who works their @ss off pay for you and your sponging friends.

You dont have to work in society too bad that means your gonna have to live in a cardboard box off the side of the street.
It would be great if someone from the Social welfare office was told about this and have this guy reported and have his supply of money cut off, some people are in desperate need of money to survive while others like you have the cheek to defraud all the taxpayers in the country just so you can "have a few cans and a laugh" with your mates instead of "flipping burgers like a retard".

partyatmygaff

Hagar wrote: »

Is there no humanity left anywhere?

There still is and this is what it is. Better 204 a week rather than the big fat 0 other countries give, generous imo.

aare

Hagar wrote: »

Is there no humanity left anywhere?

I often find myself wondering that, but if you look closely you will see plenty really...

Most of the people kicking others when they are down on these threads are just trying to keep their own (very real, justified) fears at bay at someone else's expense (and who of us does have their finest hour when they are frightened?). That's just human nature (a slightly different thing from humanity sometimes)...

Then other posters...like partyatmygaff who, at first sight seem to be ranting and raving, are, under it all, trying to get across the idea that money isn't everything and there are other recipes for happiness...which is actually humanity plus when you think about it...

You just have to know how to look...

It could be worse. At least we are not like the Brits...celebrating the recession, in the spirit of the blitz, IF IT KILLS THEM.

Demonique

aare wrote: »

Good grief...ARE they in receipt of child benefit under those circumstances?

If so, I admit that DOES seems a little over generous...to say the least.

Well, I've heard that Polish people working in the State can claim child benefit for any children back living in Poland so I'd assume it's the same for an Irish person. In either case, I'm not in favour of it. If you want to claim child benefit for your kid bring them to live in the country!

aare

Demonique wrote: »

Well, I've heard that Polish people working in the State can claim child benefit for any children back living in Poland so I'd assume it's the same for an Irish person. In either case, I'm not in favour of it. If you want to claim child benefit for your kid bring them to live in the country!

That sounds more like a fiddle where they use the paperwork and leave the kids at home with Granny to me...

Certainly NOT ON anyway...

DT100

partyatmygaff wrote: »

They can go live on their own little remote Island and drink all the seawater they like and eat all the soil they want, no way in hell will anybody who works their @ss off pay for you and your sponging friends.

You dont have to work in society too bad that means your gonna have to live in a cardboard box off the side of the street.
It would be great if someone from the Social welfare office was told about this and have this guy reported and have his supply of money cut off, some people are in desperate need of money to survive while others like you have the cheek to defraud all the taxpayers in the country just so you can "have a few cans and a laugh" with your mates instead of "flipping burgers like a retard".

So are you saying that those that flip burgers for a living are retards?

Hagar

partyatmygaff wrote: »

There still is and this is what it is. Better 204 a week rather than the big fat 0 other countries give, generous imo.

By that logic we could just cut it back to a nice round €100 and still be ahead of what other countries give.

No doubt there are abuses of the system but really how far would €204 go in Ireland today? Accomodation, food, travel, clothing, medicines etc I don't see a lot left for wild living and the like.