the budget

Nevyn

Free preschool year for all children.
Child benefit to be means tested.
Childcare payment to be cut in half in may and got rid of by the end of 2009.

Dades

Just some details:

budget.gov.ie wrote:

Early Childcare Supplement monthly payment to be halved to €41.50 per child with effect from 1 May 2009 and abolished at end-2009. It will be replaced in January 2010 with a pre-school Early Childhood and Education Scheme (ECCE) for all children between the ages of 3 years 3 months and 4 years 6 months. A capitation grant will be payable to service providers who provide free pre-school services.

Budget Speech wrote:

We will continue to target the available resources on those most in need. The Government does not think that it is fair to pay the same level of benefit irrespective of the level of income of the recipient. For that reason, the Government has decided that Child Benefit will be means tested or taxed in the Budget for next year.

Fixing the travesty that allows the people who actually pay the tax that's spent on child benefit to receive it.

embee

The scrapping of the Early Childcare Supplement and for it to be replaced as "free" pre-school for a year.... my child will be 4 in February 2010 so she falls into that bracket.

Does it mean though that ONLY the "pre-school" element will be paid for... ie they'll pay the Montessori fees but not for creche time either side of that? I have some major re-jigging of my childcare arrangement to do now in light of this stinking, rotten budget.

December bonus from the OPFP gone as well..... how in the hell am I meant to manage Christmas? They're not touching the Social Welfare payments now but I imagine it's only a matter of time. They've taken away the December bonus too.... god only knows how I'll manage Christmas.

littlebug

embee wrote: »

The scrapping of the Early Childcare Supplement and for it to be replaced as "free" pre-school for a year.... my child will be 4 in February 2010 so she falls into that bracket.

Does it mean though that ONLY the "pre-school" element will be paid for... ie they'll pay the Montessori fees but not for creche time either side of that? I have some major re-jigging of my childcare arrangement to do now in light of this stinking, rotten budget.

December bonus from the OPFP gone as well..... how in the hell am I meant to manage Christmas? They're not touching the Social Welfare payments now but I imagine it's only a matter of time. They've taken away the December bonus too.... god only knows how I'll manage Christmas.

Did the ECS really pay for more than montessori hours? My child's montessori fees come to about 1800 for the year. (4 days 9.30am to 1pm) so in fact I would have been better off with a free year.

embee

No, but the ECS was paid from birth onwards... Most people receiving the ECS are getting it for a child too young for Montessori... Plenty of people out there relying on that cash for purposes other than pre-school.

littlebug

ah right I get you now. Yes it's the people with pre-pre school children that lose out.

I wonder what the child benedit means testing criteria will be?

Redpunto

littlebug wrote: »

Did the ECS really pay for more than montessori hours? My child's montessori fees come to about 1800 for the year. (4 days 9.30am to 1pm) so in fact I would have been better off with a free year.

1800 for the year? do ya mean 18000? if not, i wanna know the name of that montessori?

littlebug

Redpunto wrote: »

1800 for the year? do ya mean 18000? if not, i wanna know the name of that montessori?

No I mean 1800. Well a bit more. 183 per month Sept- Jun. It's only for 3.5 hours for 4 mornings. Are others more expensive?

I approve of the free pre school initiative as the ECS wasn't enough to pay for this but it's a pity that it's at the expense of the ECS altogether. Many creches just hiked up their fees accordingly when the ECS was first introduced so parents will now be left paying that excess.

kelle

And what is the criteria for this free preschool year? My husband mentioned the child had to be 3years and 3months on the January of that year. If that's the case, then some children would only be able to avail of 8 months worth.

embee

Sure Montessori isn't a year round thing anyway, it's September to June with holidays around Christmas and Easter, so eight months is as long as they'd be in Montessori. Unless there are kids out there doing two years of Montessori.... I would imagine two years of Montessori before primary school isn't the norm (though I'm open to correction on that). My daughter will be doing one year of it, september 09 to June 2010 before going to primary in September 2010.

John Mason

Both playschools, which generally operate in line with the school year, and full- and part-time childcare services will be eligible to apply under the scheme to facilitate as many parents as possible. Children enrolled in playschools will receive free pre-school provision of 3 hours per day, 5 days each week over a 38 weeks year. This equates to a weekly capitation grant to the service of €64.50 and parents with children enrolled in these services will not be charged. Children enrolled in full- or part-time childcare services will receive free pre-school provision of 2 hours and 15 minutes per day, 5 days a week over a 50 week period. This equates to a weekly capitation grant to the service of €48.50, with parents paying a childcare fee net of this amount.

All children aged between 3 years 3 months and 4 years 6 months at 1 September each year, will be eligible and parents who wish to avail of the scheme can enrol their children with the available participating service of their choice. Children entering the scheme in January 2010 will be eligible if they are aged between 3 years and 7 months and 4 years and 10 months at 1 January 2010. Parents seeking to enrol their children in January 2010 will be able to apply to participating services from October of this year and, in future years, the selection period is expected to begin in June.

With the Government's investment over the last decade of over €1 billion in developing the childcare infrastructure, under both the National Childcare Investment Programme 2006-2010 and, prior to that, the EU co-funded Equal Opportunities Childcare Programme 2000-2006, 70,000 additional childcare places will have been created by 2010 and, as a result, it is now possible to introduce the pre-school year scheme and be confident that, in almost all cases, parents who wish to access a pre-school year place for their child, will be able to do so.

The pre-school year will be guided by the principles of Siolta, the early years care and education framework developed by the Centre for Early Childhood Development and Education (CECDE) under the Department of Education and Science. The expertise of the CECDE is now an integral part of the Office of the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs (OMCYA) and, as you know, steps are already underway with you to implement Siolta as part of the National Childcare Strategy. It is proposed that this role will now feed into supporting services participating in the pre-school year. It is also proposed that the County Childcare Committees will continue to play their important role in ensuring that quality standards are applied and that this will assist and support this new measure.

Nevyn

Cite please.

John Mason

Email from the OMCYA to me

Ludo

I was just scanning through the examples of the effects of the budget here:

http://www.budget.gov.ie/2009SupApril09/downloads/Annex%20A%20-%20Details%20of%20Income%20Levy%20Health%20Levy%20&%20PRSI%20changes.pdf

So, taking the 50K income for one income family with 2 kids under 5...they lose 5.2% (or €2500) this year because of the changes yesterday. (will be €3500 next year at least by the way when the rest of ECS goes, plus more again with changes to CA)

Taking the 50K income for a one income family with NO kids ...they lose 3.8% (or €1500) this year because of the changes yesterday.

This is the ECS which accounts for the difference.

They have basically screwed anyone with kids here. How exactly is this fair Mr Lenihan? Take nearly twice as much off the family with two kids to support as from a family with none?

Can't wait for the first FF canvasser to call to my door!

EDIT: By the way that figure of 2500 is rubbish....much closer to 4000 than 2500!

loyatemu

the ECS was a badly thought out stroke scheme to start with - a typical example of FF throwing money at a problem rather than thinking through a solution. Between it and child benefit many families with small kids were actually net recipients from the exchequer, a situation thats obviously not sustainable now.

Directly subsidising childcare costs at source was what they should've done in the first place (as happens in many european countries), and it seems this is the road they are going down now - hopefully in better times we'll see subsidised creche and after-school care also.

I have 2 kids under 5, so it'll hurt when it goes, but I can see the reason for it. Slightly more concerned about the proposed taxing of child benefit.

embee

I don't personally believe people should be just given Child Benefit without at the very least some sort of means testing. There are very wealthy people in this country who don't need or rely on that money and that does need to be addressed.

I'm incensed about the scrapping of the Christmas bonuses for Social Welfare recipients. Thousands of lone parents out there are going to find Christmas extremely difficult, if not impossible, particularly those with two or more kids.

Ludo

embee wrote: »

I don't personally believe people should be just given Child Benefit without at the very least some sort of means testing. There are very wealthy people in this country who don't need or rely on that money and that does need to be addressed.

I agree...the only problem I have with means testing is that the cut off point is ALWAYS set waaaayyy too low and a lot of people lose out when they shoudl not.

embee wrote: »

I'm incensed about the scrapping of the Christmas bonuses for Social Welfare recipients. Thousands of lone parents out there are going to find Christmas extremely difficult, if not impossible, particularly those with two or more kids.

hmm....bonuses in this economic climate? Not many of them going around at the moment...

kelle

Ludo wrote: »

I agree...the only problem I have with means testing is that the cut off point is ALWAYS set waaaayyy too low and a lot of people lose out when they shoudl not.

I concur. After the way the medical cards were going to be means-tested where the State Pension would bring OAPs over the limit, I'm certain that's the way CA will be means-tested.

It's depressing. I'll be down e90 per week (my pension levy is added to that), which will now leave me with e20 per week after paying childcare. It's much worse for 4 of my work colleagues who have huge mortgages. Thank God I love my job.

dodgyme

embee wrote: »

I don't personally believe people should be just given Child Benefit without at the very least some sort of means testing. There are very wealthy people in this country who don't need or rely on that money and that does need to be addressed..

I completely disagree - the policy means that spongers (and I know a few) have kids and get the full amount. Those who wait for some security and wrap themselves in a mortgage , job etc etc before having kids get less based on means!. Essentially it encourages kids for benefit and discourages familes and mothers from the workplace. This cycle then increases and in 20 years time the spongers produce more kids which then need to be kept etc etc. I know a grandmother for example who is 39 and never worked a day in her life.!

embee wrote: »

I'm incensed about the scrapping of the Christmas bonuses for Social Welfare recipients. Thousands of lone parents out there are going to find Christmas extremely difficult, if not impossible, particularly those with two or more kids.

agree this should have been scrapped when the dole rate was 4%. (i.e. the people who never wanted a job).doing it now is a kick in the teeth to those who lost there jobs.

embee

These "spongers".... I guess I must be one of them as I'm a single mother, unemployed, on welfare.

Every single cent of the €166 per month Child Benefit that I get is accounted for before it goes into the bank. I'm a student, will end up working in the public sector when I graduate. Childcare is €150 a week, welfare is €207 per week. I have food, clothing and travel expenses to meet.

I just don't think that the parents out there who have two big cars, the foreign holidays and the six figure salaries have as pressing a need for the Child Benefit as I would have. I'm living below the poverty line, vast majority of these archetypal parents aren't.

beth-lou

I have two kids and another on the way.
Both my husband and I work.
Childcare costs €450 a week.
After I pay for that I put another €100 into my mortgage. That leaves €40 that I put towards shopping. And that's it. All my money gone.
My husband covers the rest of the mortgage, food shopping, petrol and bills.
Our car is over 10 years old. He is lucky if he has €20 at the end of the week.

On paper we might look like we are doing ok, but in reality, we are paying out €20,000 per year in childcare. The ECS and Child benefit helps me to pay for clothes, doctors vists, swimming lessons, school books, school uniform. There is no spare cash in our household, even though we both work hard. The sad fact is, I would actually be financially better off on the dole.

It doesn't matter whether you are on the dole or bringing in a substanstial wage, the majorityof working families and those on the dole are going to be badly effected by this.

If they means test it, will they include the childcare costs I have or will they just look at what you earn and then cut you off?

Dades

Ludo wrote: »

So, taking the 50K income for one income family with 2 kids under 5...they lose 5.2% (or €2500) this year because of the changes yesterday. (will be €3500 next year at least by the way when the rest of ECS goes, plus more again with changes to CA)

Taking the 50K income for a one income family with NO kids ...they lose 3.8% (or €1500) this year because of the changes yesterday.

This is the ECS which accounts for the difference.

The family with no kids isn't "losing" as much because they never got the ECS in the first place.

embee wrote: »

I just don't think that the parents out there who have two big cars, the foreign holidays and the six figure salaries have as pressing a need for the Child Benefit as I would have. I'm living below the poverty line, vast majority of these archetypal parents aren't.

I'm with beth-lou on this. There aren't just 'two types' of family - yours, and 6 figure earners with Range Rovers.

There are likely to be a lot of families who are likely to find themselves cut because they've both decided to work. So the government will happily take their pound of flesh in tax but then reserve the right to deny them the benefits their taxes pay for.

Means testing is just one more incentive for people to give up their job and instead of remaining an asset to the economy, become a liability.

dodgyme

embee wrote: »

These "spongers".... I guess I must be one of them as I'm a single mother, unemployed, on welfare.
.

every circumstance is individual. I dont know yours to judge.

dodgyme

Dades wrote: »

Means testing is just one more incentive for people to give up their job and instead of remaining an asset to the economy, become a liability.

SPOT ON

Rev Hellfire

dodgyme wrote: »

did you no think of waiting to have kids until you had a job and a house? Its a straight question and I am not trying to be smart?

Assuming its not a virgin birth the answer is obviously no.

But welfare for single mothers isn't really a reward for their stupidity but support for a child who's placed in this predicament through no fault of their own.

Redpunto

littlebug wrote: »

No I mean 1800. Well a bit more. 183 per month Sept- Jun. It's only for 3.5 hours for 4 mornings. Are others more expensive?

My little one does 3 and half hours, five days a week and it costs me €75 a week.

embee

dodgyme,

My circumstances are indeed not for you to judge. You did though, in your initial post.

To clarify, mine was an unplanned pregnancy, as are a significant number of pregnancies in this country every year. I was 25 when I had my daughter, I worked since I was 18. It isn't really fair to say someone shouldn't have kids unless they can afford it. I worked before I had the baby. I returned to work once my maternity leave was over. I didn't add a load of "sick" weeks onto my maternity leave, I took the time I was entitled to and not a day more.

Now, I'm actively trying to improve my situation. Trying to put myself through college, not just for me but for my wee girl too. But there seems to be a prevaling negative notion about single mothers out there. Very unfair and in most cases not even close to justified.

I dunno, I shouldn't feel the need to explain myself but I do. Maybe you read "single unemployed mother on welfare" and thought, ah sure it's her own fault, what did she expect. I expect nothing but equity and fairness, and I honestly don't think it's equitable or fair for extremely wealthy people to be getting child benefit regardless of their means. And I don't mean people in situations like beth-lou's... I'm talking about the über rich.

Rev Hellfire

embee wrote: »

I expect nothing but equity and fairness, and I honestly don't think it's equitable or fair for extremely wealthy people to be getting child benefit regardless of their means

If they put money into the pot they should be entitled to also take money out of the pot, for equities sake.

The uber-rich aren't the sort of people who are effected by this its the middle-income parents who seem to be expected to finance everyone else mistakes and get nothing in return.

Personally I'm glad to see the back of the holiday bonus, its early enough in the year for people to budget for Christmas, just like everyone else. It might have been a different story if it had been sprung on them in November.

luckat

No point in turning on each other. Most of the people here have children, love them, and are doing their best to support them. I doubt anyone on this forum is lazing around living under the happy palm tree of the dole and drinking mai tais.

Morag

Contraception isn't 100% and everyone plays tax and prsi and so do their family and thier kids when they grow up unless the parens are utter scummers.

The more that is invested to make sure kids who are on the breadline get a decent education and can stay in school and go to college the better. This just puts the squeeze on to many familys.

Joan Burton was right the child care allowance scheme was a big fat bribe to get FF back in government and as soon as they are in they are back to f ucking people over.

Joey the lips

I get lost in some of the termonology but does this mean the Childrens allowence is being means tested.

If so does anybody know the mechanism limits etc....