Budget 2009 - Is it clear that we need new government?

jeawan

hellboy99 wrote: »

We've a government that can't govern, a Taoiseach that does not know how to communicate in a professional manner or run a country (speaks more like a bully in a school yard), a Finance minister with no accounting skills, and the list goes on....

It's time they went and it's long overdue !

not one of the current Government have ever ran a business they have no idea what the hell they are doing . they have royally screwed us big time in this budget and yet they have defared there own tax and pay cuts for a year to be decided by a committee.

Any Government would be better then this of idiots that have no idea how to run a corner shop let alone the country , the private sector gets blow after blow and they do nothing to help save the jobs being lost

ionix5891

GalKiefer wrote: »

Does anyone else think its a joke that after each party leader has given their speech the whole lot walk out? Sinn Féin's Arthur Morgan TD is speaking now and there's practically nobody still in the House.

beh who wants to listen to them SF clowns ....


all jokes aside this is an example of our tax money hard at work :eek: .... in the pub next to the Dail that is about now ....

T-K-O

GalKiefer wrote: »

Does anyone else think its a joke that after each party leader has given their speech the whole lot walk out? Sinn Féin's Arthur Morgan TD is speaking now and there's practically nobody still in the House.

Yes I've always noticed that. It's a complete lack of respect. The place was empty when Burton from Labour was speaking.

We should also make EVERY member attend the Dail just like the UK and the States. I actually like watching debates from the house but the place is always empty.

rapture 3

was brian cowen not minister of finance,when all this took place?now he s running the country?all previous taoiseach s were elected by us the public,cowen was nt,would he of been elected,i douth it.its a joke.and now we all have to suffer,this is utter BOLLOX. IRELAND IS A JOKE,and to think people died for this country,and before anybody gets on and said we all had it good,we all had money ,my life got worse and now..........................****en joke.

Gran Hermano

I agree Lisbon II has nothing to do with FF, I was pointing out that certain
parts of the population will be fuming over the loss of their 'double dole' and
will likely turn to SF as witnessed in the past. A lot of voters can not see
the bigger picture and will use any opportunity to register an "anyone but FF"
vote and protest.

T-K-O

snyper wrote: »

I hve no doubt that FF will take a trouncing in the next election..

Its rather simple - when the economy is doing well and people have money in their pocket the government at that time will remain in power..


ie.. If the silent majority are happy

Its rather simple, people want someone to blame, and naturally the government are the first place to look at, rather than accepting personal responsibility for accepting that 100% fixed rate mortgage that they cant pay now because they have lost their job.

NO MATTER WHO IS IN POWER the problem remains, we have budget deficit in this country tht needs to be addressed, we need money and we need it fast. No government wants to take money from people on lower incomes but the wish of the masses to tax the wealthy will not generate the returns that people expext so the problem still remains.

A change of government will change nothing other than perhaps higher supertaxes on people on higher incomes such as the super tax of 90% the UK had in the 80's. What did that produce? The mass exedous of wealth from the country.

We could borrow money - unlike other EU countries we have not been borrowing heavily in recent times.

Taxing the super rich will not solve the problem - that is NO reason not to do it.

Erroneous the opposition are completely against tax increases thats their whole point.

AckwelFoley

T-K-O wrote: »

You say that as if we should give them a pass for ****ing up. FF have put another nail in the coffin and for the first time I am beginning to worry about our economy.

They have not done enough. Personally I don't think I'm effected at all !!!!!

I like how you blame FF for the global crisis. You are not alone, most people do.

What FF can be held accountable for is relying too much on the returns from taxes generated through the construction and then giving tax cuts to the masses by widening the tax bands to take so many out of the income tax net.

But we didnt complain then did we?

AckwelFoley

T-K-O wrote: »

Erroneous the opposition are completely against tax increases thats their whole point.

so am i.

I dont want to pay tax at all.

Wheres the money comming from?

I dont want to give my fiance money at the end of the week towards the household bills, but if i dont we shall not eat, and we will sit in the dark..cold.

ciaran76

Maybe a reason the opposition are not coming up with any proposals is because they don't want the job either !:(

GalwayKiefer

T-K-O wrote: »

It's a complete lack of respect.

We should also make EVERY member attend the Dail just like the UK and the States.

100% agree, shows total disrespect for other TD's and the House. Not that I'm a SF supporter but I believe every TD has the right to be heard by the House - They're there because they're representing a portion of the population. I'm always disgusted to see loads of empty seats here and a full house in UK (where they're always baying for each other's blood - good entertainment if you've a remote interest in the topic!)

nesf

T-K-O wrote: »

We could borrow money - unlike other EU countries we have not been borrowing heavily in recent times.

Taxing the super rich will not solve the problem - that is NO reason not to do it.

Erroneous the opposition are completely against tax increases thats their whole point.

No they're not, FG confirmed that there would be a temporary "solidarity tax" on most/all workers which would amount to a similar thing to the income levy.

Smoke and mirrors.

Snowaddict

T-K-O wrote: »

You say that as if we should give them a pass for ****ing up. FF have put another nail in the coffin and for the first time I am beginning to worry about our economy.

They have not done enough. Personally I don't think I'm effected at all !!!!!

That's not what I'm saying, but to state that it's as simple as get them out and the opposition is just not feasible.

Yes the government have made mistakes, but are you honestly suggesting that a stuttering Richard Bruton with an oblivious Enda Kenny, coupled with a screaming Joan Burton can seriously solve our problems and would seriously have done better.

FF have fostered the most susbtantial economic development that this country has even seen. With the good must come the bad and unfortunately we are now in a downturn. FF can do nothing about that.

There is a, broadly speaking, 30 year cyclical recessional phase in Ireland - the 1950's, 1980's and of course towards 2010.

I'm not vindicating the mistakes of FF, of which there have been several over the past 10 years, but they have done and will do a far better job than the prospective opposition.

ionix5891

T-K-O wrote: »

Erroneous the opposition are completely against tax increases thats their whole point.

Without increasing taxes and cutting public sector/welfare what else is there to do to cover the losses?

As for blaming FF for crisis thats kinda stupid, their main contribution was allowing the construction sector get so large

they were only a factor in the whole thing, we the mindless consumers are responsible too, also all the speculators and builders who bought into the housing bubble

General Strife

Snowaddict wrote: »

That's not what I'm saying, but to state that it's as simple as get them out and the opposition is just not feasible.

Yes the government have made mistakes, but are you honestly suggesting that a stuttering Richard Bruton with an oblivious Enda Kenny, coupled with a screaming Joan Burton can seriously solve our problems and would seriously have done better

Definitely

Snowaddict wrote: »

FF have fostered the most susbtantial economic development that this country has even seen. With the good must come the bad and unfortunately we are now in a downturn. FF can do nothing about that.

We all new it was going t**s up over 2 years ago. Well everyone but the see no evil / hear no evil Fianna Fail.

Snowaddict wrote: »

There is a, broadly speaking, 30 year cyclical recessional phase in Ireland - the 1950's, 1980's and of course towards 2010.

Now that's just making excuses for them.

Snowaddict wrote: »

I'm not vindicating the mistakes of FF, of which there have been several over the past 10 years, but they have done and will do a far better job than the prospective opposition.

That remains to be seen.

latenia

I would vote for a Fine Gael led by Richard Bruton or else Fianna Fáil again. Unfortunately they are the best options.

Snowaddict

General Strife wrote: »

Definitely

Now that's just making excuses for them.

That remains to be seen.

How is it making excuses for them? Familiarity with the economic trends of our nation will dictate that there was an extremely high probability of a recession sometime around 2010. These have been the trends over time, regardless of who was in power. It is redicilous to suggest that this is making excuses for them, this is merely the statement of economic fact.

Well already they have taken a far more strategic approach than FG would have, which was demonstrated readily by Richard Bruton's response today - a response that did not contain one piece of relevant economic substance.

shezzie

they are quite simply robbing ba**ards - they put the economy in the mess its in and they rob the people to make it better for them - yet only bout 14 of our government ministers will take a reduction in pay - how bout we say we dont want the reduction in our wages that they want to take reckon they will listen not - cause they can get away with robbing us - i know they have to make measures to make up their deficit but there were definately other ways i do think the cigarettes should have been increased more - businesses should have to pay more... heavier fines for tax evaders -

so disappointed in the government - can anyone explain why this country voted them back in i can at least say i had sense to vote for another party though it must be said they are all as useless as each other:mad:

they are all half wits that and robbing bas**ds cant say that enough totally peeved with budget and government they hae no idea how to govern just to destroy the economy and excuse and excuse:mad:

rant over ....:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

General Strife

Snowaddict wrote: »

How is it making excuses for them? Familiarity with the economic trends of our nation will dictate that there was an extremely high probability of a recession sometime around 2010. These have been the trends over time, regardless of who was in power. It is redicilous to suggest that this is making excuses for them, this is merely the statement of economic fact.

Well already they have taken a far more strategic approach than FG would have, which was demonstrated readily by Richard Bruton's response today - a response that did not contain one piece of relevant economic substance.

It's making excuses for them because the government seen this coming over 2 years ago:

http://www.finfacts.com/irelandbusinessnews/publish/article_10006861.shtml

And they done nothing, not a thing. Sure what would the IMF know about it anyways?

Your basis of a 30 year cyclical economy is no more than a handy coincidence.

Highsider

Yes

Snowaddict

General Strife wrote: »

It's making excuses for them because the government seen this coming over 2 years ago:

http://www.finfacts.com/irelandbusinessnews/publish/article_10006861.shtml

And they done nothing, not a thing. Sure what would the IMF know about it anyways?

Your basis of a 30 year cyclical economy is no more than a handy coincidence.

I repeat once again that I don't deny that they have made mistakes. They should have taken action more quickly, however no-one could have forseen such a sharp contraction.

Yes, the collapse of the construction sector was inevitable, basic economic analysis would dictate this outcome with over supply and saturation of the market, however the decline in other sectors could not have been forseen.

My point is not referring to the IMF, it is that FG or Labour would have done no better, in fact, quite possibly worse.

My basis of a 30 year cyclical cycle is not a mere handy co-incidence. Take a look at some manufacturing stats and this generally broad cycle holds well, tying in very well also with all of the population figures from CSO, referring to net migration etc. It is far from a handy co-incidence.

Let people vote FG and co in if they like, but what I will say is be prepared for the consequences.

sdanseo

I think the problem here is that FF have had power for most of the last 30 years, in fact for most of the history of the state. They're too comfortable, they have apparently nothing to prove so they're not even trying, but worse than that they're ****ing us over and taking our money and jobs to do it.

At least FG or Labour would have something to prove and might actually make a half-hearted attempt at improving things rather than looking after their own - what with the judges being offered the pay cut "voulantarily", and I notice also that corporation tax wasn't increased at all, for example. I know we have to remain competitive but the idea that big businesses get out of this scot-free is painful to say the least. OK so we might scare a few companies off, but we'll still have one of the lowest rates in the EU, if not THE lowest.

Frankly I don't care who replaces them at this stage. Anything would be better. Trained monkeys included.

They need to go because they CAN NOT govern to save their life. And they need to go now, before they take more of our increasingly hard-earned from us.

Kerly

Gran Hermano wrote: »

June 5th 2009, by-election in South Dublin. I reckon FF will feel the backlash and as for the Lisbon Treaty II...

For gods sake please dont lump the Lisbon treaty in with support for FF.
Without the euro we would be in a far worse fix than we are now, the good people of europe were happy to help us out in the 80's and 90's when things were not so good. We may need their help again..

jmayo

Alcatel wrote: »

That's the "They're smart" assumption, but either way the end result is the same. They can let, say, FG take the reigns, do the hard budgets, become unpopular, and then come back to government when it's all over.

That has always been the way they worked.

snyper wrote: »

exactly.

Who do you elect? Enda Kenny and that other spanner John Gilmore?

What amuses me is that everybody is an expert on the economy :rolleyes:

I donot get involved in political debate simply because of mindless comments made about politicians and politics that lack any thought or decent analysis.

As opposed to your spanners, biffo clowen, brian haven't a clue lenihan, not forgetting mary hopeless coughlan :rolleyes:
Very impressive collection.
So would that be only people not doing decent analysis on ff party and ff ministers that you don't debate with :rolleyes:
From recollection I remember you braying how wonderful bertie was and how FF were the people to keep the great economic growth going at time of last election.
Please correct me if i am totally wrong.

snyper wrote: »

How do you come to this figure?

He uses the same principle as Brian Lenihan, he sticks one finger in his left ear and the other up in the air and it just comes to him

Snowaddict wrote: »

This is the worst national and international contraction since the Great Depression following the Wall Street Crash of 1929.

Of course it is a global problem, always make sure to get that little point in :rolleyes:

snyper wrote: »

I like how you blame FF for the global crisis. You are not alone, most people do.

What FF can be held accountable for is relying too much on the returns from taxes generated through the construction and then giving tax cuts to the masses by widening the tax bands to take so many out of the income tax net.

But we didnt complain then did we?

No you mightn't have been complinaing but I remember I like a lot of others did because we weren't involved in the building trade :rolleyes:

Snowaddict wrote: »

That's not what I'm saying, but to state that it's as simple as get them out and the opposition is just not feasible.

Yes the government have made mistakes, but are you honestly suggesting that a stuttering Richard Bruton with an oblivious Enda Kenny, coupled with a screaming Joan Burton can seriously solve our problems and would seriously have done better.

FF have fostered the most susbtantial economic development that this country has even seen. With the good must come the bad and unfortunately we are now in a downturn. FF can do nothing about that.

There is a, broadly speaking, 30 year cyclical recessional phase in Ireland - the 1950's, 1980's and of course towards 2010.

I'm not vindicating the mistakes of FF, of which there have been several over the past 10 years, but they have done and will do a far better job than the prospective opposition.

FFS so now it is a cyclical occurence.
Actaully match some of those years and you will find ff were in power beofre the ar** might have fell out of things.

Yes you are vindicating ff in every one of your posts.
You claim they have done a better job than oposition would do and they will do a better job.
Funny the international investment community don't have your rosey opinion of this government.

Ps building residential property in the ar*hole of nowhere, that nobody wants based on cheap borrowing is not economic growth, but I guess that is what is seen as economic growth by the builders party :rolleyes:

Oh I hear it coming "bertie built the celtic tiger" :rolleyes:
He inherited it, then fleeced it and sold it to his building buddies.

PS weren't David McWilliams, Morgan Kelly, Eddie Hobbs and the like issuing warning abotu the economy ?
So much for nobody seeing the problems ...

T-K-O

snyper wrote: »

I like how you blame FF for the global crisis. You are not alone, most people do.

What FF can be held accountable for is relying too much on the returns from taxes generated through the construction and then giving tax cuts to the masses by widening the tax bands to take so many out of the income tax net.

But we didnt complain then did we?

Yeah I'm blaming them for the global crisis.:rolleyes:

I do blame them for allowing the regulator sit on his hole. I blame them for all the wasted money - remember e-voting:eek:.
I blame them for over paying themselves creating junior positions for their buddies the list goes on

And for the record I did question it when MBNA bombarded me with offers of 20k credit cards when I was a broke ass student.

Snowaddict

jmayo wrote: »

FFS so now it is a cyclical occurence.
Actaully match some of those years and you will find ff were in power beofre the ar** might have fell out of things.

Yes you are vindicating ff in every one of your posts.
You claim they have done a better job than oposition would do and they will do a better job.
Funny the international investment community don't have your rosey opinion of this government.

Ps building residential property in the ar*hole of nowhere, that nobody wants based on cheap borrowing is not economic growth, but I guess that is what is seen as economic growth by the builders party :rolleyes:

Oh I hear it coming "bertie built the celtic tiger" :rolleyes:
He inherited it, then fleeced it and sold it to his building buddies.

PS weren't David McWilliams, Morgan Kelly, Eddie Hobbs and the like issuing warning abotu the economy ?
So much for nobody seeing the problems ...

Yes, every 30 years broadly speaking, since the 1950's, Ireland has experienced net outward migration for several years to a sustained period of contraction.

You state that I vindicate FF in my posts, yet you deride them completely, so what's your point.

I'm merely pointing out that it's so easy to point the finger of blame, it's so easy to say ''get rid of them'', yet what alternatives are we faced with?

Given the performances of the opposition today along with their political policies, absolutely none!

Also, please don't seriously suggest that Eddie Hoobs was making accurate forecasts. Anyone can persistently state that a recession is on the cards. David McWilliams suggested that a decline was on the cards certainly, but largely due to consumer overspending, as highlighted in all of his documenataries.

Did the government go out and force people to spend instead of keeping their income in a deposit account? No they didn't so that argument simply does not stand.

General Strife

Snowaddict wrote: »

I repeat once again that I don't deny that they have made mistakes. They should have taken action more quickly, however no-one could have forseen such a sharp contraction.

Yes, the collapse of the construction sector was inevitable, basic economic analysis would dictate this outcome with over supply and saturation of the market, however the decline in other sectors could not have been forseen.

My point is not referring to the IMF, it is that FG or Labour would have done no better, in fact, quite possibly worse.

My basis of a 30 year cyclical cycle is not a mere handy co-incidence. Take a look at some manufacturing stats and this generally broad cycle holds well, tying in very well also with all of the population figures from CSO, referring to net migration etc. It is far from a handy co-incidence.

Let people vote FG and co in if they like, but what I will say is be prepared for the consequences.

The government stoked the fire of the property boom/construction industry and it fell apart.

The leading economy in Europe is not turned into the worst more or less overnight by a 30 year cyclical theory. Forgive me but it makes you sound like an FF apologist.

FF have had their chance. Now it's the opposition's turn whoever that might turn out to be.

AckwelFoley

jmayo wrote: »

That has always been the way they worked.



As opposed to your spanners, biffo clowen, brian haven't a clue lenihan, not forgetting mary hopeless coughlan :rolleyes:
Very impressive collection.
So would that be only people not doing decent analysis on ff party and ff ministers that you don't debate with :rolleyes:
From recollection I remember you braying how wonderful bertie was and how FF were the people to keep the great economic growth going at time of last election.
Please correct me if i am totally wrong.

...

No, you are absolutely correct.

T-K-O

ionix5891 wrote: »

Without increasing taxes and cutting public sector/welfare what else is there to do to cover the losses?

As for blaming FF for crisis thats kinda stupid, their main contribution was allowing the construction sector get so large

they were only a factor in the whole thing, we the mindless consumers are responsible too, also all the speculators and builders who bought into the housing bubble

Cut the spending the public sector is a JOKE. 20% need to be removed.

They took the credit for the boom now they can take the criticism. Is anyone seriously happy with Lenihan. The guy is incompetent of fulfilling his job title.

shezzie

ff are robbing ba**ards pure and simple they caused the problem pure and simple and are robbing the people to pay for their mistakes and their arrogance

buckfasterer

So what are the first steps to actually getting this government out?