college fees

AARRRGH

My masters cost me €6,000 per year. This definitely made me take it a bit more serious and work a little bit harder.

I agree with the concept of free fees, but I do think it makes people a bit more relaxed about dropping out.

Does anyone know of any statistics which show the drop out rates before and after the introduction of free fees?

invincibleirish

K4t wrote: »

No, you mis-interpreted my post. What I'm saying is how is it fair to introduce fees now when the economy is completely screwed and when parents are facing income levies and increased taxes. In '96 the economy was thriving and fees were abolished! It doesn't make sense to me.

In 1996 we still had highish (compared to the period 2000-2006) unemployment but the economy was certainly developing.

If a family earn over 120k+ per year they should well be able to afford full fees(with increased exemptions where a number of children are in college). Is it fair that middle income earners you mention whose children receive no grants have to pay 1500k registration fee, the same as those whose parents are millionaires? tell me K4T do your parents own any additional property like holiday homes etc.? do you attend a grind school? if you do then mum & dad need to prioritise what they spend their money on in these tough times.

Sully

Xavi6 wrote: »

As I said, in my experience it is. Every year Dublin 15 students flock to Maynooth in large part due to it's convenience. It's 'cool' to get the train to Maynooth in a big group, go out on the lash midweek etc. People see Arts as an easy course so that combined with convenience is a breeding ground for wasters.

I know that if it was costing a few grand for the course a lot of them wouldn't have been out there as mammy and daddy would have had more of a vested interest in how they were getting on.

Well I cant say I have seen the same down here at least. Registration fee is expensive enough now, so it should be a deterrent.

SD1990

The ammount of people that are relaxed about droping out because of no fees fails in comparison to the amount of people that would be FORCED to drop out if they were brought back imo..

Léan

invincibleirish wrote: »

Fees should be reintroduced, there are too many people who's parents can afford to send them to expensive grind schools and fund their college lifestyle. If your parents own additional properties outside of their family home then they can afford to send their kid to college, if they can't have both then they'll have to pick & choose.

I'm sorry but I hate this attitude that 'all people that go to grind schools are loaded and should pay fees' etc..

My parents scraped the money together to send me to a grind school. In fact my mother opened an account in the credit union and tried to put in what she could every month to send me. By no means did they have extra money to send me there, they thought long and hard about it and decided it would be an investment in my education.
There is no way my parents would be able to afford college fees if they were introduced. They put evey bit of money they could aside to allow me to go to a grind school so I could get the points I needed to do my course and since then i've been working hard in college to give them the results.

The attitude that people who can afford to go to grind schools can afford college fees is totally unfair. I went to school with a lot of people from many backgrounds and the majority of them couldn't afford to be going to the school and were doing what they could to get by. A friend of mine even took out a loan to go to the school to get the points she needed.

Most of the time it's the points system that drives people to go to grind schools and not because they can afford it, but that's another issue altogether.

Sierra Oscar

I dont think it was expected that fees would be announced in the budget.

invincibleirish

Léan wrote: »

I'm sorry but I hate this attitude that 'all people that go to grind schools are loaded and should pay fees' etc..

My parents scraped the money together to send me to a grind school. In fact my mother opened an account in the credit union and tried to put in what she could every month to send me. By no means did they have extra money to send me there, they thought long and hard about it and decided it would be an investment in my education.
There is no way my parents would be able to afford college fees if they were introduced. They put evey bit of money they could aside to allow me to go to a grind school so I could get the points I needed to do my course and since then i've been working hard in college to give them the results.

The attitude that people who can afford to go to grind schools can afford college fees is totally unfair. I went to school with a lot of people from many backgrounds and the majority of them couldn't afford to be going to the school and were doing what they could to get by. A friend of mine even took out a loan to go to the school to get the points she needed.

Most of the time it's the points system that drives people to go to grind schools and not because they can afford it, but that's another issue altogether.

OK relax chill, i also attended a grind school in my youf i know how it is. Grind schools blossomed in the years after free fees were introduced, parents who now did not have to spend money on college fees put their kids into these schools instead. These schools create an educational apartheid and contributed to the points inflation you referenced.

dimejinky99

High end earner Families who can afford to send their kids to college should be made to pay to do so. this should be assessed on a case by case basis. Middle-low earning families shouldnt be charged fees ever. It completely deflates the whole idea of a knowledge based economy and really it's us shooting ourselves in the foot in a maasive way. This budget is ridiculous anyways, people should be encouraged to spend, not saved, but the bank bailouts are the killer. As usual Irelands government gets it totllay arse about face. we need a change now and even FG would be better than this shower of incompetents.

Xavi6

Xavi6 wrote: »

No but they should be in the form of means testing.

Sorry I havn't read the rest of the thread yet so I don't know if this has been brought up, but how bloody badly do you want to hit the members of society who have worked their asses off in college and planned their expenditure and saved their money?

Really? You want them to pay for poorer people's dole, poorer peoples medical expenses and now for their kids to go through college while their own kids will be forced to pay themselves? Absolute joke.

Fee's for all or fee's for none. Will these people that pass the "means test" not be able to pay their own fee's back after too?

invincibleirish

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

Sorry I havn't read the rest of the thread yet so I don't know if this has been brought up, but how bloody badly do you want to hit the members of society who have worked their asses off in college and planned their expenditure and saved their money?

Really? You want them to pay for poorer people's dole, poorer peoples medical expenses and now for their kids to go through college while their own kids will be forced to pay themselves? Absolute joke.

Fee's for all or fee's for none. Will these people that pass the "means test" not be able to pay their own fee's back after too?

Me Fein much?

dimejinky99

dimejinky99 wrote: »

High end earner Families who can afford to send their kids to college should be made to pay to do so. this should be assessed on a case by case basis. Middle-low earning families shouldnt be charged fees ever. It completely deflates the whole idea of a knowledge based economy and really it's us shooting ourselves in the foot in a maasive way. This budget is ridiculous anyways, people should be encouraged to spend, not saved, but the bank bailouts are the killer. As usual Irelands government gets it totllay arse about face. we need a change now and even FG would be better than this shower of incompetents.

So you think a good way of getting people to spend is making sure that gratuates are in debt as soon as they leave college?
Good plan.

invincibleirish

invincibleirish wrote: »

Me Fein much?

Not at all, I have already been through the system and even though I might go back again as a mature student, this whole fee debacle won't affect me much.

I'm merely looking out for generations to come, unless people actually think its a good thing to make this country as unattractive as possible to anyone earning a decent wage.

dimejinky99

your missing the point. fees excludes lower earning families kids from ever attending college in the first place. Back to the bad old days of annoying Fentons & Andrea's from D4 only being able to go to college. Bad scene all round. And it's heading that way. Education is a right not a privelige and excluding people from all areas, classes and income bands is going to be hugely detremental to our economy in the very near future and from then on.

invincibleirish

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

Not at all, I have already been through the system and even though I might go back again as a mature student, this whole fee debacle won't affect me much.

I'm merely looking out for generations to come, unless people actually think its a good thing to make this country as unattractive as possible to anyone earning a decent wage.

Whats your definition of a a decent wage? no one is suggesting that everyone has to pay fees, only those earning above a certain threshold? btw we already have fees introduced in the form of the registration fee, and a wholly inadequate grant system. Reform is needed whats your alternative?

dimejinky99

dimejinky99 wrote: »

your missing the point. fees excludes lower earning families kids from ever attending college in the first place. Back to the bad old days of annoying Fentons & Andrea's from D4 only being able to go to college. Bad scene all round. And it's heading that way. Education is a right not a privelige and excluding people from all areas, classes and income bands is going to be hugely detremental to our economy in the very near future and from then on.

So you believe that the students parents of higher earning families should be paying their fee's straight out? Or should the students themselves get a loan? If it's the latter then what is to stop these students from lower earning families to do the same?

invincibleirish

invincibleirish wrote: »

Whats your definition of a a decent wage? no one is suggesting that everyone has to pay fees, only those earning above a certain threshold? btw we already have fees introduced in the form of the registration fee, and a wholly inadequate grant system. Reform is needed whats your alternative?

My alternative is to 1) Leave the system as is. I went to college with people from low income families who got the grant and high income families who didn't. I honestly can't see what's wrong with that? Fair for everyone.

2) If people think our 3rd level education system is that bad and underfunded (You'd swear we lived in afghanistan the way some people describe it) then introduce a loan system for EVERYONE.

dimejinky99

Rojo, high end earning families can afford to educate their kids. Read my post. If they can afford to pay? they should be made to pay. If they cant? free fees&free education access programs such as there are, should be made available to them. It's not rocket science. The grants scheme works on this basis. It should apply in the fees aspect also.

dimejinky99

dimejinky99 wrote: »

Rojo, high end earning families can afford to educate their kids. Read my post. If they can afford to pay? they should be made to pay. If they cant? free fees&free education access programs such as there are, should be made available to them. It's not rocket science. The grants scheme works on this basis. It should apply in the fees aspect also.

But they already pay in the current system with their high end taxes. The system you're proposing sees them paying twice no?

ec18

fluffyorganic1 wrote: »

Does this mean everyone has to pay the new registration fee irrespective of income or is it means tested?

If you qualify got a grant than you will be reimbursed for the registration fee i believe

dimejinky99

No it doesnt. Everyone pays tax. It's as the goon says, those who can afford to pay should be made to pay. It's the only way we can ensure we're still on the path to a high quality knowledge based economy, not one accessible to the high earners and elite. Most families can't afford to put kids through college, they shouldnt be excluded because of their earnings, we just left decades of that behind, and we saw what happened. why go through it again?
waste of time. Fund health and education primarily. Everything else will fall into line after that.

danois

does any one know if the grant has been changed in the budget??

danois

danois wrote: »

does any one know if the grant has been changed in the budget??

Wasn't mentioned I don't think, the changing rates are normally discussed coming up to June.

danois

Dónal wrote: »

Wasn't mentioned I don't think, the changing rates are normally discussed coming up to June.

thanks for that its hard enough getting by would be totally screwed with out it

Aldebaran

Sully wrote: »

Entirely different topic but the grants situation in Ireland is appalling. Both applying for and actually waiting for it.

Fine Gael seems to have the better plan for this whole debate.

What is Fine Gael's plan?

Don't mean to drag the thread off topic but I am genuinely interested in this.

melekalikimaka

they folded on medical cards... and now on fees...

the moany civic sevice brigade win again

NTLsucks

i hear if u get into a college course u dont hav to sign on and you still get the dole or education allowance or something, is this true?

NTLsucks

NTLsucks wrote: »

i hear if u get into a college course u dont hav to sign on and you still get the dole or education allowance or something, is this true?

BTEA is very specific, I think you need to be on the dole for over 9 months to be eligible. You can't get the dole if you're a full-time student AFAIK.

dimejinky99

NTL, you can be on the dole, carers allowance, all those kindsa schemes for 9 months to be eleigible but once on BTEA your away, it's a great scheme and hugely underused. Go for it but find yourself the right course!

Piste

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

Sorry I havn't read the rest of the thread yet so I don't know if this has been brought up, but how bloody badly do you want to hit the members of society who have worked their asses off in college and planned their expenditure and saved their money?

Really? You want them to pay for poorer people's dole, poorer peoples medical expenses and now for their kids to go through college while their own kids will be forced to pay themselves? Absolute joke.

Fee's for all or fee's for none. Will these people that pass the "means test" not be able to pay their own fee's back after too?

I agree with this totally. Whatver about lower-income families not being able to pay for fees, the middle-income earners have been paying dole, medical card, rent allowance etc., it is completely unfair to ask them to also subsidise poorer people's education. I agree that fees should be for all and not for some.

But I know that many families couldn't afford to pay fees which is why I'm totally in favour of a graduate tax system whereby everyone pays when they reach a certain income threshhold. The reasoning behind fees being introduced is that graduates have a higher income, so they should use that higher income to gradually pay off their fees for their course. That way everyone is affected and everyone can afford to go to college regardless of income (unless you're incredibly poor and can't even afford books/transport in which case there would probably be grants).

I was really surprised to se fees not even getting a mention in the budget. I thought the fees announcement would come out before the budget and when it didn't I assumed they'd made it part of the budget. I just want it to be announced sooner or later so I can start making plans.

I hope they stick with the proposal of introducing it in 2010 just for the people entering college then (so I'll have just missed it, thank god), but if they're going to charge my year I hope to god they only do it from 2010 onwards. To make people pay fes for 2009 would be incredibly hard, we'd only have 4/5 months to get money together.

I heard a proposal that a mixture of a graduate tax and fees would be introduced; the fees paid upfront would get a 20% reduction on the full amount and the people who wanted to pay via taxes would pay the full amount. This would generate revenue in the short term. People might be outraged that it'll be the middle to higher earners who could afford to pay the 80% upfront, but I think they'd deserve it for paying upfront and generating short-term rvenue for the government.

If (okay let's be realistic, when) fees are introduced I really hope they'll be used constructively and hopefully our already good universities will become pioneers for research and development as well as education.

Christ that was a long post.

delta_bravo

Xavi6 wrote: »

As I said, in my experience it is. Every year Dublin 15 students flock to Maynooth in large part due to it's convenience. It's 'cool' to get the train to Maynooth in a big group, go out on the lash midweek etc. People see Arts as an easy course so that combined with convenience is a breeding ground for wasters.

I know that if it was costing a few grand for the course a lot of them wouldn't have been out there as mammy and daddy would have had more of a vested interest in how they were getting on.

Absolutely agree with that. Im studying arts now in ucd, before i enrolled i knew exactly what i wanted to do afterwards and that is why I am doing the B.A. I would be in the minority, most people do the course because they havent a clue what to do and waste their degree getting an unimpressive 2.2 in Art History and Sociology or something like that. What is the point of the government funding someone doing a course 'for the sake of it' and wasting their time and the governments money.

dimejinky99 wrote: »

Back to the bad old days of annoying Fentons & Andrea's from D4 only being able to go to college. Bad scene all round. And it's heading that way. Education is a right not a privelige and excluding people from all areas, classes and income bands is going to be hugely detremental to our economy in the very near future and from then on.

If I hear that statement again I think I'm going to cry, Education is absolutely a privilege and you should be grateful for it and make the most of it. There are a wealth of scholarships and access programmes available to incoming students, many of which are excellent and provide financial assistance and continuous support to disadvantaged student and these will continue so it would be unfair to say that lower income students have been completely blocked from education. A graduate tax is fairly simple to implement and will not act as a deterrent to students who genuinely want a degree