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college fees

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13

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    #62
    Piste
    Registered Users Posts: 11,440 ✭✭✭✭Piste


    When people say things like "education/healthcare is a privilege" I wonder what they actually mean. Do they mean it should be provided to us free of charge by the goverment? The government doesn't just magic these things out of thin air, education is paid for through taxes, so we do pay for it. Now as it happens the taxes aren't enough, because apparently some things are moe important than education and need our money more (banks...) so if fees come in we'll still be paying for education, just a whole lot more.

    Basically there's no such thing as a free lunch

    (unless you do the insomnia €5 deal, I got a coffee for -45c today!)
    delta_bravo wrote: »
    Absolutely agree with that. Im studying arts now in ucd, before i enrolled i knew exactly what i wanted to do afterwards and that is why I am doing the B.A. I would be in the minority, most people do the course because they havent a clue what to do and waste their degree getting an unimpressive 2.2 in Art History and Sociology or something like that. What is the point of the government funding someone doing a course 'for the sake of it' and wasting their time and the governments money.

    I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, a lot of people go to college because they're expected to and feel under pressure to. Add that to a lack of career guidance and people panic at CAO time and stick down whatever course that seems vaguely interesting. Because of the Celtic Tiger all good jobs required a degree, even if it was just something any TY student could do, if you wanted a halfway decent job that wasn't in retail chances are you'd need a degree, so a lot of today's LC students have the mentality that they have to go to college and get a degree.


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    #63
    invincibleirish
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,219 ✭✭✭invincibleirish


    Ye young people fail to realise about you (or should i say your parents) subsidising 'poorer' people with dole etc. is that you are not owed a free education because mum & dad pay tax. And you fail to realise that kids from wealthy backgrounds are subsidised by ALL taxpayers, that will include those today who are on minimum wage who have been pushed back into the tax base.

    If you want to talk about adopting a system based on universality then start by pushing for for this principle to be adopted for all government spending, not just for certain areas.


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    #64
    Dean D
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20 ✭Dean D


    Third-level fees weren't touched because many students are on a study month. The Government will wait until they have exams and until they break up and go home before announcing fees so students can't mobilise.


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    #65
    Sully
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 24,056 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sully


    Aldebaran wrote: »
    What is Fine Gael's plan?

    Don't mean to drag the thread off topic but I am genuinely interested in this.

    The new proposals by Fine Gael would abolish college registration fees and see new entrants to college, after graduation, make a contribution through the PRSI system to the value of 30% of the cost of their college education.

    Since fees have been abolished by the Fine Gael Government, registration fees have increase from £190 under Fine Gael to €1500 under Fianna Fail. The Fine Gael proposal is a deferred graduate contribution scheme, where graduates pay through the PRSI system in the order of 30% of the cost of their undergraduate course, paying for no more than 10 years.


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    #66
    Dean D
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20 ✭Dean D


    Since fees have been abolished by the Fine Gael Government...
    Come off of it, you're not fooling anyone.


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    #67
    invincibleirish
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,219 ✭✭✭invincibleirish


    Sully wrote: »

    Since fees have been abolished by the Fine Gael Government,

    Free fees were introduced by a Niamh Bhreatenach, a Labour TD implementing Labour party policy.


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    #68
    Sully
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 24,056 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sully


    invincibleirish wrote: »
    Free fees were introduced by a Niamh Bhreatenach, a Labour TD implementing Labour party policy.

    That was a quote from another website. I haven't the energy to explain the policy.

    EDIT; http://www.donegaldemocrat.ie/donegalnews/Young-Fine-Gael-welcome-party.5109582.jp

    Sorry, I am half asleep here so I only glimpsed at the article.


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    #69
    xOxSinéadxOx
    Registered Users Posts: 2,604 ✭✭✭xOxSinéadxOx


    so when are they going to decide anything on this?


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    #70
    Dean D
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20 ✭Dean D


    xOxSinéadxOx wrote: »
    so when are they going to decide anything on this?
    When it becomes impossible for the student body to mobilise- late April or May.


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    #71
    Red Crow
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,139 ✭✭✭Red Crow


    It wasn't really suggested that they would be back this year. Most were backing it for the 2010/11 school year.


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    #72
    Pride Fighter
    Registered Users Posts: 5,729 ✭✭✭Pride Fighter


    invincibleirish wrote: »
    Free fees were introduced by a Niamh Bhreatenach, a Labour TD implementing Labour party policy.

    Just about to mention that.


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    #73
    TheDoc
    Registered Users Posts: 23,137 ✭✭✭✭TheDoc


    I pay my way through college, I do not qualify for grants, because seemingly a father who breaks his bollox working as a postman, and a mother who works 5 days a week as a hopistal secretary, is well off?

    I paid 900 euro this year, 150 of that manditory gym fees.

    Firstly they can go **** right off. I'm not paying that

    But now they want me to pay €1500?

    The funny thing is, the people who get the grants, have mostly dropped out of my course, or are scraping their grades.

    Reading this budget just reminds me of how much i hate this country, and how it is run by muppets.


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    #74
    Thirdfox
    Registered Users Posts: 7,110 ✭✭✭Thirdfox


    TheDoc wrote: »
    I pay my way through college, I do not qualify for grants, because seemingly a father who breaks his bollox working as a postman, and a mother who works 5 days a week as a hopistal secretary, is well off?

    I paid 900 euro this year, 150 of that manditory gym fees.

    Firstly they can go **** right off. I'm not paying that

    But now they want me to pay €1500?

    The funny thing is, the people who get the grants, have mostly dropped out of my course, or are scraping their grades.

    Reading this budget just reminds me of how much i hate this country, and how it is run by muppets.

    I take it you're in Trinity? (I am anyway - and that's what we pay).

    However, right now I'm on exchange - and in the US, law school certainly does not cost 1500... I would be paying 40,000 dollars for the year here if it wasn't for our exchange agreement (my American friends turn green with envy over the fact that we only pay 1500 euro).

    Even England, that great socialist state (compared to capitalist America anyway) has fees at around 3,000 pounds last time I checked (3 years ago). Fees will probably have to come in soon, especially as our universities are woefully underfunded. The law school over here has a multi-million dollar budget, our law school gets a multi-thousand euro one. Since we are here to learn in the best possible environment possible, I would be for paying extra fees if I knew that we would get value for money.

    And therein lies the problem, ensuring that the government responsibly manages extra income and re-invests it into our 3rd level education and not waste/tunnel it somewhere else.

    Or we could sell our souls back to Coke... the uni I'm in, gets 80% of their funding from Coca Cola - so they have 6 billion dollars in the coffers.


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    #75
    xOxSinéadxOx
    Registered Users Posts: 2,604 ✭✭✭xOxSinéadxOx


    I'm sorry but I don't think our universities will be getting any extra money when fees come in. why do you think the government want fees back? funding will be cut in line with fees


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    #76
    Thirdfox
    Registered Users Posts: 7,110 ✭✭✭Thirdfox


    Like I said - therein lies the problem.


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    #77
    lostexpectation
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,082 ✭✭✭lostexpectation


    i thought he said he make an announcement this week about them coming back in particular form next year


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    #78
    Piste
    Registered Users Posts: 11,440 ✭✭✭✭Piste


    Thirdfox wrote: »
    Even England, that great socialist state (compared to capitalist America anyway) has fees at around 3,000 pounds last time I checked (3 years ago).

    If the goverment make Irish students pay the EU rate then you're looking at about €5,000-€8000 a year, the Irish Independent said that in the UK there's a cap of €3500 (they said euro anyway) per year on fees so if we bring in a much higher rate we're going to see a definite brain drain to the UK. Why study law in a little Irish university when you could be in Oxford or Cambridge for much less?


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    #79
    zonEEE
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,554 ✭✭✭zonEEE


    Minister always said the fees wont be included in the budget. He is bringing his recommendation to the cabinet in a few weeks.


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    #80
    Thirdfox
    Registered Users Posts: 7,110 ✭✭✭Thirdfox


    Who said we need to bring in the EU rate? Foreign students pay up to 14,000 (law) to 30,000 (medicine) to study in Ireland... doesn't mean we'll pay it. Though there were reports of Irish parents wanting to pay those fees in order to have their child benefit from the reduced points requirement for the high demand courses (medicine reduced from 590 to 480 in the case of TCD a friend studying it told me).

    And why study law in Trinity? Same reason why we don't get brain drain from Britain from the LSE applicants even though we are ranked higher than them... people want to study in the uni's of their country, with their respective legal system. We get plenty of British people who come to Trinners anyway since it's seen as a back up to the trinity of Oxbrige + Trinity... indeed, you can get an Oxford degree instead of a Trinity one if you are deemed worthy enough.

    But that's enough extolling of the virtues of Trinity - the main problem is the underfunding. And we could either get it from a) increased taxation b) shifting money from other areas or c) fees. Which option is the most appealing to you?

    To add though - in regards law, many people see the severe contraction of this industry (not as bad as the architects but pretty frightening nonetheless) so there's every chance of brain drain occurring not from fees, but due to emigration as people leave for greener pastures. Having fees and perhaps some Australian type of lock-in loan may ensure that at least our 4 years of public education isn't used to educate someone just so that they take that knowledge elsewhere without at least a token contribution back into the economy.


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    #81
    K4t
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,362 ✭✭✭K4t


    invincibleirish wrote: »
    Is it fair that middle income earners you mention whose children receive no grants have to pay 1500k registration fee, the same as those whose parents are millionaires?
    No! That's my point. But they will be the very people to pay if fees are reintroduced. Maybe not intially but give it a year or two.
    invincibleirish wrote: »
    tell me K4T do your parents own any additional property like holiday homes etc.? do you attend a grind school? if you do then mum & dad need to prioritise what they spend their money on in these tough times.
    You've got some cheek! My parents are middle income earners who even if they had enough money would not dream of buying foreign property. I don't attend grind schools and they have prioritised what they spend on for the last twenty years. They don't drink or smoke and are forgoing a camping holiday abroad this year. And this is nothing compared to what other families are going to have to forego, whereas the welathy will only have to forego their winter getaway to Dubai. So don't tell me where our priorites lie.

    The fact of the matter is that if fees are reintroduced, it will affect middle income earners progressively worse than it will higher income earners, just like the budget itself did.


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    #82
    Piste
    Registered Users Posts: 11,440 ✭✭✭✭Piste


    invincibleirish wrote: »
    tell me K4T do your parents own any additional property like holiday homes etc.? do you attend a grind school? if you do then mum & dad need to prioritise what they spend their money on in these tough times.

    I know this was adressed to K4t, but are you seriously suggesting that parents could sell their holiday home in a market that's gone stagnant to pay for their kid's college fees? Not gonna happen, houses/appartments aren't selling these days!


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    #83
    invincibleirish
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,219 ✭✭✭invincibleirish


    Piste wrote: »
    I know this was adressed to K4t, but are you seriously suggesting that parents could sell their holiday home in a market that's gone stagnant to pay for their kid's college fees? Not gonna happen, houses/appartments aren't selling these days!

    Interesting to see you are so well versed in property news. As elaborated in my op you quoted, in times like now parents have to make tough choices, no one forced people to buy the property they bought? if Pa can't pay juniors college fees because he took a gamble on the property market with his saved up spare change its only his own fault?


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    #84
    invincibleirish
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,219 ✭✭✭invincibleirish


    K4t wrote: »
    No! That's my point. But they will be the very people to pay if fees are reintroduced. Maybe not intially but give it a year or two.

    It all depends on income thresholds, tell me what do you think is an appropriate threshold?

    K4t wrote: »
    he fact of the matter is that if fees are reintroduced, it will affect middle income earners progressively worse than it will higher income earners, just like the budget itself did.

    Welcome to post Celtic Tiger Ireland.


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    #85
    anothernight
    Registered Users Posts: 2,541 ✭✭✭anothernight


    invincibleirish wrote: »
    As elaborated in my op you quoted, in times like now parents have to make tough choices, no one forced people to buy the property they bought? if Pa can't pay juniors college fees because he took a gamble on the property market with his saved up spare change its only his own fault?

    I take it that back when people (including you) didn't know there would be a recession, you never spent any money other than on bare necessities?


    I do know of a few well off families who will struggle to pay the fees, because they have many children of about the same age.
    If the majority people are middle income earners who will probably suffer the most, then I think I'd rather have the old system, even if we were also funding the education of the rich - as well as the poor.


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    #86
    *shadow*
    Closed Accounts Posts: 144 ✭✭*shadow*


    K4t wrote: »
    The fact of the matter is that if fees are reintroduced, it will affect middle income earners progressively worse than it will higher income earners, just like the budget itself did.

    Exactly..Middle income earners nearly end up worse off than others because you might be just above the treshold for receiving a grant but then once fees and accomodation costs have been paid your twice as worse off as someone who recieved a grant.

    Also as far as I am aware registration fees are going up for everyone this year, and fees are to be introduced for all students who are starting college this September, the government is at the moment discussing the way in which the fees are to be introduced.

    It's also ridiculous that there is no accomodation grant..someone living just outside of Dublin can get the normal grant and commuter in everyday while someone at the oposite end of Ireland gets the same grant but has to pay out 7000 a year on accomodation. How can this be right!


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    #87
    Piste
    Registered Users Posts: 11,440 ✭✭✭✭Piste


    invincibleirish wrote: »
    Interesting to see you are so well versed in property news. As elaborated in my op you quoted, in times like now parents have to make tough choices, no one forced people to buy the property they bought? if Pa can't pay juniors college fees because he took a gamble on the property market with his saved up spare change its only his own fault?

    I don't think you quite understood my post, I wasn't saying that parents shouldn't have to sell their holiday homes, I was saying that they can't. If someone has a holiday home down in Wexford for example (and they might still have a mortgage on it) it's very unlikely that they could sell it. It's not a question of what they should do but what they can do.


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    #88
    ionix5891
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,033 ✭✭✭ionix5891


    Piste wrote: »
    I don't think you quite understood my post, I wasn't saying that parents shouldn't have to sell their holiday homes, I was saying that they can't. If someone has a holiday home down in Wexford for example (and they might still have a mortgage on it) it's very unlikely that they could sell it. It's not a question of what they should do but what they can do.

    thats a lie home can sell easily assuming the seller is not deluded and faces up to the facts that they probably bought into negative equity

    ill pay in cash for a holiday home in wexford from these imaginary people

    but they would have to lower the price to the reasonable value, all houses in Ireland are still wildly overvalued

    average house in UK is €160k, average house here €250k

    prices have a long way to fall yet

    and in all honesty parents should do anything in their powers to help their children not be dumping responsibility on the state and the taxpayer


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    #89
    gcgirl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,044 ✭✭✭gcgirl


    Gorey you can buy a 3 bed house for 170,000 now! Prices have completely slashed!
    I am Sorry to say this but there are some people that fly from course to course and simple do not have a clue what they wanna do Which makes it harder for people that actually want to do the course and i do feel sorry for middle income earners but not for the rich that are well able to pay for the kids 2nd level education they can pay for their 3rd level as well!!
    ionix5891 wrote: »
    thats a lie home can sell easily assuming the seller is not deluded and faces up to the facts that they probably bought into negative equity

    ill pay in cash for a holiday home in wexford from these imaginary people

    but they would have to lower the price to the reasonable value, all houses in Ireland are still wildly overvalued

    average house in UK is €160k, average house here €250k

    prices have a long way to fall yet

    and in all honesty parents should do anything in their powers to help their children not be dumping responsibility on the state and the taxpayer


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    #90
    ionix5891
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,033 ✭✭✭ionix5891


    gcgirl wrote: »
    Gorey you can buy a 3 bed house for 170,000 now! Prices have completely slashed!
    I am Sorry to say this but there are some people that fly from course to course and simple do not have a clue what they wanna do Which makes it harder for people that actually want to do the course and i do feel sorry for middle income earners but not for the rich that are well able to pay for the kids 2nd level education they can pay for their 3rd level as well!!

    please show me a 3 bed in wexford for 170k


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    #91
    ninty9er
    Registered Users Posts: 9,366 ✭✭✭ninty9er


    samsemtex wrote: »
    Why? No fees is the best thing that ever happened this country.
    Yes and No.

    It encouraged 3rd level attendance, but it gave for free whatmany people were already willing and able to pay for.

    It also encourages the mentaility of going to 3rd level because you can and it costs nothing as opposed to wanting a particular outcome.
    Xavi6 wrote: »
    To stop wasters taking courses they don't really want/need to do, and end up dropping a semester in. There are a lot of people who take a course because that's what their mates are doing (Arts in Maynooth from personal experience). It pushes up the points and rules out people who actually want to do the course.

    Doesn't have to a massive fee, but just something to make the wasters think twice when filling out their CAO.



    Implement a loan system similar to that in the UK and Australia. You pay it back when you start earning a proper wage.

    +1

    Except we'd have to put an international remit on the loan which is where the Ozzie system fails. The UK system is to penal.
    ionix5891 wrote: »
    thats a lie home can sell easily assuming the seller is not deluded and faces up to the facts that they probably bought into negative equity

    ill pay in cash for a holiday home in wexford from these imaginary people

    but they would have to lower the price to the reasonable value, all houses in Ireland are still wildly overvalued

    average house in UK is €160k, average house here €250k

    prices have a long way to fall yet

    and in all honesty parents should do anything in their powers to help their children not be dumping responsibility on the state and the taxpayer
    Most people with children of 3rd level age were clever or lucky enough to buy property when it was way below these levels. Get real.

    52% of UL voters are against fees and of the 48% in favour, 66% of those want a loan system.

    52/48 is no big win for the anti-fees movement.


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