Stopping the Flow of Irish Money to the North

cls

De Hipster wrote: »

Thanks


The problem being that unfortunately (as said on this thread previously), the government cannot stop the flow of finances to the North as they have done little to incentivise the people to shop in the south as VAT alone means they get even more of the little earnings they’ve left us with to live on.

I don't think they should be doing anything. It's a problem for retailers, not the government. The governments only concern is the tax receipts. And with people shopping North, not shopping at all and nobody buying houses they have a major problem with their tax structure. They need to hit people at source, stay at home or shop in the North all you like and the government will still get its taxes. That is what they are working on now and over the next few years. Stopping the flow of Irish money to the North is a retailer/consumer issue. There's plenty of scope for lowering prices in the Republic and everyone knows it. You can see it already, the smart retailers will take what they can get and be happy with whatever profits they make in a recession.

cojomo2

RETAILERS CANNOT DOP PRICES WITHOUT THE GOVERNMENT PUTTING LEGISLATION IN PLACE TO STOP THE LANDLORDS TAKING THE PISS!

hellboy99

cojomo2 wrote: »

RETAILERS CANNOT DOP PRICES WITHOUT THE GOVERNMENT PUTTING LEGISLATION IN PLACE TO STOP THE LANDLORDS TAKING THE PISS!

Fair enough rents are high but that's not the whole problem, there's a lot of profiteering going on too, prices can be dropped even with the current rents.

Disease Ridden

The reason that prices are so high in the Republic compared to Northern Ireland is because wages here have become overinflated in recent years.
The budget yesterday aimed to lower wages in this country to try to fix things in the long run. Continuing to buy up north actually might help to speed up the process of wage and price equilibrium between the North and the Republic by causing their prices to rise slightly and ours to fall perhaps even more; shopping in the Republic is simply perpetuating the unnaturally high prices here.
Is that not the way capatilism works? Everybody looks out for themselves and if somebody cant keep up the pace (eg. if they cant sell goods cheap enough) they get weeded out from the market and tough luck; life isnt meant to be fair.

hellboy99

The cost of living needs to come down first, not wages.

cojomo2

hellboy99 wrote: »

Fair enough rents are high but that's not the whole problem, there's a lot of profiteering going on too, prices can be dropped even with the current rents.

dont agree. As already mentioned rents in the north are only a fraction of what they are here. I pay rent at the rate of nearly 1500 per sq metre which was bearable(just about) in boom times(when this rent was agreed). now its just a matter of time b4 im screwed. with such huge differences in rent and labour between here and N.I how the hell are we supposed to be comptetetive? Greedy landlords- every1 seems to be overlooking them as a big part of the problem..

bauderline

The problem is fairly fundamental... the jobs in the private sector are won or lost in a global economy, the cost of living here is fairly high which is why people have or seek higher wages than our counterparts. This in turn creates additional overheads for retailers and businesses which we see refelected in the price of our goods to a certain extent... and so goes the vicious circle.

Because we became self obsessed with our internal markets which was driven by the property boom which was fuelled by cheap money and irresponsible behaviour by banks our cost of living and cost base went throught the roof. Everyone wanted a slice of pie... Sadly once the property boom vanished in a fairly blinding puff of smoke we are left in a position that we cannot compete with other european countries let alone asia for jobs... at any sort of skill level...

The entire Irish economy needs a reboot, the person that figures out how to do it will go far... and then some ....

The cost of employing people in this country needs to go down, no two ways about, however for this to become viable the cost of living has to come down. The term "standard of living" is in fact horse****. What people need and want is value for money. Moreover irish firms need to get value for money as well both in terms of their overheads... rent, electricity and in term of employee salaries..

Its simple, Ireland needs to be able to compete with the rest of europe in order to attract jobs and investment which is what will turn our economy around. To do this we need to lower the cost of living and the cost of doing business in this country.

One last thing I would say is that it is easy to lay blame at the door of the banks for this whole mess, however as the old saying goes.. if you give them enough rope.... Ultimately our goverment failed us badly, the writing was on the wall, they saw the money rolling in, they let the public sector finances run riot and they let the population of this country run up a huge tab that will take them 10 - 20 years to pay off..

Its shocking to think that we cannot hold anyone accountable for this, it really was a gross dereliction of duty by our goverment of the last ten years. I for one hope that people send a clear message the next time they get near a ballot box..

P.

bauderline

cojomo2 wrote: »

dont agree. As already mentioned rents in the north are only a fraction of what they are here. I pay rent at the rate of nearly 1500 per sq metre which was bearable(just about) in boom times(when this rent was agreed). now its just a matter of time b4 im screwed. with such huge differences in rent and labour between here and N.I how the hell are we supposed to be comptetetive? Greedy landlords- every1 seems to be overlooking them as a big part of the problem..

... and the beauty and the ability of the free market to correct itself becomes clear.

If people like you do go out of business and continue to do so then these same landlords will be left with empty buildings... which in turn will mean rents will at last start to fall as competition for tennants hots up...

It's not pleasant.... It's not fair.... But its a correction that is needed...

Unless anyone has a better suggestion to get landlords to lower their prices...

Fat_Fingers

cojomo2 wrote: »

RETAILERS CANNOT DOP PRICES WITHOUT THE GOVERNMENT PUTTING LEGISLATION IN PLACE TO STOP THE LANDLORDS TAKING THE PISS!

Maybe i'm naive.. should not retailers lobby be working on this with landlords?
I'm very skeptical of retailers here in Republic. For years they were ripping people off but it was ok when stupid Irish was prepared to pay whatever the price was. Now when most people have no choice but to take their business elsewhere is not retailers fault but someone else. .. like Government or Landlords... Over the years we heard of massive profits retailing sector was making here. It all remind me of publicans blaming smoking ban and not seeing anything wrong with 2 drinks for 10 + euro..

cls

Can you not deal with the landlords yourself? I mean, if they really are threatening to put you out of business with high rents surely they have no choice but to lower rents? btw, rents in the North are cheap because it is Northern Ireland.

banshee_bones

I keep reading in threads on boards about the cost of living coming down.i would love to know where exactly because by the looks of this thread it most certainly has not.
If anything more and more poeple are now being forced to go to the north to try and save as much cash as they can and if you are unemployed or trying to feed and clothe a family, keeping a roof over your head is going to be your priority, not saving someones job by "buying Irish" when its going to be of enormous cost to you...

cojomo2

bauderline wrote: »

... and the beauty and the ability of the free market to correct itself becomes clear.

If people like you do go out of business and continue to do so then these same landlords will be left with empty buildings... which in turn will mean rents will at last start to fall as competition for tennants hots up...

It's not pleasant.... It's not fair.... But its a correction that is needed...

Unless anyone has a better suggestion to get landlords to lower their prices...

well im tied into a lease..even if i go out of business im still liable to pay the rent. I have asked my landlord via their agency for a rent review numerous times..with 'no' being the answer every time. Im in a shopping centre and about 15 shops have closed down here in the last year. landlords arnt taking much notice...yes they will lower the rent for new tennants but give the big 2 fingers to ones like me who are in the middle of their lease and have no legal foot to stand on other that pay up untill the death!

bauderline

cojomo2 wrote: »

well im tied into a lease..even if i go out of business im still liable to pay the rent. I have asked my landlord via their agency for a rent review numerous times..with 'no' being the answer every time. Im in a shopping centre and about 15 shops have closed down here in the last year. landlords arnt taking much notice...yes they will lower the rent for new tennants but give the big 2 fingers to ones like me who are in the middle of their lease and have no legal foot to stand on other that pay up untill the death!

I am no expert but I was under the impression once you file for bankruptacy you have a certain amount of protection for this ? On a personal level you should be able to go bankrupt and not be liable for the remainder of the lease ? If this is not the law in this country then that is something that needs reforming right there....

I would also imagine that most people going bust don't have any money, not much good having people tied into a leases when they can't pay... again landlords will need to seek fresh income and to do so they will need to reduce rents...

mark my words commercial rents will be corrected throughout Ireland but especially in Dublin..... This ain't over yet... not by a longshot...

CamperMan

cls wrote: »

Can you not deal with the landlords yourself? I mean, if they really are threatening to put you out of business with high rents surely they have no choice but to lower rents? btw, rents in the North are cheap because it is Northern Ireland.

Landlords do have mortgages on these premises, if they pay ex amount in mortgage payments each month, how can they reduce the rent just to suit the tenant, they can't, the landlord has to keep up those hefty mortgage payments!!

cojomo2

bauderline wrote: »

I am no expert but I was under the impression once you file for bankruptacy you have a certain amount of protection for this ? On a personal level you should be able to go bankrupt and not be liable for the remainder of the lease ? If this is not the law in this country then that is something that needs reforming right there....

I would also imagine that most people going bust don't have any money, not much good having people tied into a leases when they can't pay... again landlords will need to seek fresh income and to do so they will need to reduce rents...

mark my words commercial rents will be corrected throughout Ireland but especially in Dublin..... This ain't over yet... not by a longshot...

no...when u sign the lease u are required to sign a 'personal guarantee' which means they can come after your house and othere personal posessions''

Fat_Fingers

cojomo2 wrote: »

well im tied into a lease..even if i go out of business im still liable to pay the rent. I have asked my landlord via their agency for a rent review numerous times..with 'no' being the answer every time. Im in a shopping centre and about 15 shops have closed down here in the last year. landlords arnt taking much notice...yes they will lower the rent for new tennants but give the big 2 fingers to ones like me who are in the middle of their lease and have no legal foot to stand on other that pay up untill the death!

Well that is a nasty situation. Is there no way your lobby group can put a pressure on landlord? I would think you on your own will have no luck but if your business is represented by likes of IBEC then you would have a more muscle. Usually those big shopping centers are owned by one person (developer) or small group. Get your legal help to check the contract again to see if there is likes of "inability to pay" and what are the penalties for pulling out of contract after x years.. If you signed the contract that is fully tilted against you then you need to have a word with your legal person who advised you to sign on doted line.
I do hope you canget some resolution to this asap.

Sleipnir

cojomo2 wrote: »

RETAILERS CANNOT DOP PRICES WITHOUT THE GOVERNMENT PUTTING LEGISLATION IN PLACE TO STOP THE LANDLORDS TAKING THE PISS!

How can they do that though? Legislate so that people can break leases at any time? Bang goes all contract law so.

jeawan

Fingleberries wrote: »

Unfortunately this is then considered 'protectionism' and is the very thing that the EU and everyone moaned about when the US proposed similar measures in their stimulus package.

aye this is true but how many EU countries send there work out of there countries ? none bar us they all have measures to keep the work in the country were as we don't .

cojomo2

CamperMan wrote: »

Landlords do have mortgages on these premises, if they pay ex amount in mortgage payments each month, how can they reduce the rent just to suit the tenant, they can't, the landlord has to keep up those hefty mortgage payments!!

not usually the case....example ..in my case the landlord is Irish Life. They will seek to get maximum rent to sataify their investors..id guess this centre is long paid for...their objective is to get as much as they possible can, not just to cover their payments and and extra bit on top..they are out to give u a jolly rogering..and with the help of the law- allowing them 'upward only reviews'- regardless of how economic conditions change

bauderline

cojomo2 wrote: »

no...when u sign the lease u are required to sign a 'personal guarantee' which means they can come after your house and othere personal posessions''

Sign the whole shebang over to your spouse or children. Then stiff em... can't take what you don't have....

Idbatterim

Im surprised there wasnt a token gesture reduction in vat say .5% or so. As I read recently how much can the government lose by lowering the vat rate is no one is spending! 21.5% is insane, it should be 20% at most!

cojomo2

Sleipnir wrote: »

How can they do that though? Legislate so that people can break leases at any time? Bang goes all contract law so.

2 simple measures/

1. outlaw upward only rent reviews and establish a body for fair rent reviews based on changing economic conditions that business can go to if they feel they are being taken advantage of

2. outlaw asking a business for a 'personal guarantee'...if the business goes bust , landlords should not be able to come after the owners house..the landlord should have to take a certain amount of risk on board too - just like any other business...

stevelknievel

If you shop around in Ireland, you will save money! There has never been a better time to shop in Ireland. Go to your Lidl and Aldi. Play Tesco and Dunnes off each other, and get the deals in each of those places. It's simple. The fact is thousands of euros are crossing the border every day. Everyone who blames the Governement for everything and still takes their money north is a hypocrite. They are adding to the problem, and making things worse. Not for the Government, but for the people. Especially the people who have to make long journeys. Individually not much, but collectively it's a big problem. And in all fairness lowering the VAT wouldn't make a big difference. 2%? You spend 100 quid and save 2 euro? Would that really make people go on big spending sprees? I think not. And that's only if the retailer passes on the savings, which they probably won't because they're struggling too. Because everyone is f**king off to the North.

bauderline

stevelknievel wrote: »

If you shop around in Ireland, you will save money! There has never been a better time to shop in Ireland. Go to your Lidl and Aldi. Play Tesco and Dunnes off each other, and get the deals in each of those places. It's simple. The fact is thousands of euros are crossing the border every day. Everyone who blames the Governement for everything and still takes their money north is a hypocrite. They are adding to the problem, and making things worse. Not for the Government, but for the people. Especially the people who have to make long journeys. Individually not much, but collectively it's a big problem. And in all fairness lowering the VAT wouldn't make a big difference. 2%? You spend 100 quid and save 2 euro? Would that really make people go on big spending sprees? I think not. And that's only if the retailer passes on the savings, which they probably won't because they're struggling too. Because everyone is f**king off to the North.

Listen, the vast bulk of the stuff in Aldi's and Lidl is utter crap. Dunnes and Tescos have been operating a Cartel for years. The truth of the matter is that groceries in this country cost too much. Whilst overheads may be higher in ROI they are not so high as to leave the company no room to cut prices. Far from it... Tescos and Dunnes etc... do have the ability to compete with prices North of the border, they just need to take the hit on their profit margins... however they don't appear to feel the need to go there.... yet..... they would rather let the business slip away....

cojomo2

bauderline wrote: »

Sign the whole shebang over to your spouse or children. Then stiff em... can't take what you don't have....

if only it was that easy.

im 27, have no kids, and when signing the lease was told my personal guarantee wouldnt be worth a crap as my net worth isnt big enuf...

at this point i reluctantly asked my dad would he sign it, he thought about it and agreed...and it was acepted. Now if i default on rent or do a runner, they go after him, so not an option!!

stevelknievel

bauderline wrote: »

Listen, the vast bulk of the stuff in Aldi's and Lidl is utter crap. Dunnes and Tescos have been operating a Cartel for years. The truth of the matter is that groceries in this country cost too much. Whilst overheads may be higher in ROI they are not so high as to leave the company no room to cut prices. Far from it... Tescos and Dunnes etc... do have the ability to compete with prices North of the border, they just need to take the hit on their profit margins... however they don't appear to feel the need to go there.... yet..... they would rather let the business slip away....

There's nothing wrong with the vast bulk of stuff in Lidl or Aldi. There is some of it a bit rough, but most of it is perfectly useable, and some of it is an improvement on what you can get in other place. Different is not always bad. Tesco, Dunnes etc have cut some of their prices hugely in the last year. And there are so many deals going on in theses places, as well as Londis, Mace etc, that you could get a lot of your shopping done on special offers. It might mean having to use a different brand name than you normally would, but if it helps drag the country out of the state it's currently in and helps to create much needed employment, then it think that's a fair deal.

Sleipnir

cojomo2 wrote: »

2 simple measures/

1. outlaw upward only rent reviews and establish a body for fair rent reviews based on changing economic conditions that business can go to if they feel they are being taken advantage of

2. outlaw asking a business for a 'personal guarantee'...if the business goes bust , landlords should not be able to come after the owners house..the landlord should have to take a certain amount of risk on board too - just like any other business...

Well, I would agree with number two; the inability to pay rent on a business property should not have an attached risk to the family home.

Number one is unworkable though. Could you legislate to outlaw upward-only prices on goods?
How would you clearly define "upward only" Is that something that is defined in the lease?

Dummy

cojomo2 wrote: »

if only it was that easy.

im 27, have no kids, and when signing the lease was told my personal guarantee wouldnt be worth a crap as my net worth isnt big enuf...

at this point i reluctantly asked my dad would he sign it, he thought about it and agreed...and it was acepted. Now if i default on rent or do a runner, they go after him, so not an option!!

Good God - that puts everything into perspective.

There is such a real need for change in this country.

bauderline

stevelknievel wrote: »

There's nothing wrong with the vast bulk of stuff in Lidl or Aldi. There is some of it a bit rough, but most of it is perfectly useable, and some of it is an improvement on what you can get in other place. Different is not always bad. Tesco, Dunnes etc have cut some of their prices hugely in the last year. And there are so many deals going on in theses places, as well as Londis, Mace etc, that you could get a lot of your shopping done on special offers. It might mean having to use a different brand name than you normally would, but if it helps drag the country out of the state it's currently in and helps to create much needed employment, then it think that's a fair deal.

Well I am stumped... I have a wife and two kids which means my shopping list content is fairly wide ranging.. many the deals offered by Supervalu only address a small portion of the weekly shopping list and you will end up paying top whack for everything else, with the result the net effect is pointless.

Moreover I have to really disagree with you on the price cuts front, a weekly shop in ROI seems just as expensive as ever. On a average weekly shop I save almost 100 euros by shopping in Tescos Portadown. This is not only due to the price difference but also the amount of two for one offers and buy one get one free offers in that store far outstrips anything I have ever witnessed south of the border.

A real life example.. six pack fo lucozade in Tescos ROI ... circa €6.70 the same six pack in Tescos NI £2.50 .... I mean WTF !?

In the current economic climate people will continue to seek value for money North of the border... its an unstoppable force of economics. The only people who have the power to stop this is Irish retailers, if they want to survive this and they do care about where the Irish economy is going then they needs to get their customers back by offering them what they want.... value for money....

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