No decrease in Social Welfare Payments?

Quartet

Errm to do you remember this bit...

aare wrote: »

as the person in the north does not have to pay any contribution to rent

and this bit from myself.....(Quoted from the HE Website)

If you receive Income Support or Income Based Job Seekers Allowance or Guaranteed Pension Credit you will get maximum Housing Benefit. This may be less than you are charged if your rent is considered to be too high or your home is under-occupied.

I have given the facts that that people in the North do where required pay a contribution

By the gave the reference for the housing executive for everyone to take a look

By the way the LHA is not actually up and running yet!

I referenced it as an example of what will be happening there soon...

Now Quartet...I have a couple of questions that I KNOW our viewers are longing to ask you...

Rem no personal attacks are allowed on the forums & I dont think the Forums have "viewers"...as for Your qustions

Lets all keep a posititive attitude...

aare

Quartet wrote: »

I have given the facts that that people in the North do where required pay a contribution

Where the rent exceeds the maximum limit, as has been the case here as long as I can recall...and your point is?

Quartet wrote: »

By the gave the reference for the housing executive for everyone to take a look

To the large, complicated site...I linked the PAGE you quoted.

Quartet wrote: »

By the way the LHA is not actually up and running yet!

And your point is?

Quartet wrote: »

I referenced it as an example of what will be happening there soon...

Good:D, as it is considerably better than what is happening here at present...but your point was SUPPOSED to be how much WORSE off they are in the North...so how does showing they are better off provide a premise for that?

Quartet wrote: »

Lets all keep a posititive attitude...

Looking for any excuse to frighten and intimidate anyone you perceive to be weaker and more vulnerable than yourself is not a "positive attitude" on my planet...

Quartet

Setting the record straight

So glad you have the facts right now

Ref people in the north paying a contribution ....

aare wrote: »

Where the rent exceeds the maximum limit, as has been the case here as long as I can recall...and your point is?

aare wrote: »

That is simply untrue, as the person in the north does not have to pay any contribution to rent,

ref the rest of it I'm not going there as no personal attacks are allowed on the forums and mud slinging is outside my remit

Lets keep a good attitude, stick to facts that have been checked and not resort to the use of platitudes...

alegrabaroque

gcgirl wrote: »

There are some that have been put in that postion by their ex partners who dont pay a penny towards their kids Which happens to be my story My ex would rather provide for his lazy jobless self centered GF than his kids but i still have to get on with it!!

Well maybe if you`d took the time to get to know him a bit as he wouldn`t have been my first choice as a sperm doner. You made a decision, ok a two second one, but its still a decision why do responsible people have to pay for it? Believe me every legal route should be taken to make him live up to his responsibilities also. Theres still no male contrapceptive as far as I know thou so ultimately shouldn`t you have been on one of the many many many available contraceptives out there or insisted on condoms? Don`t play the victim, victims don`t have a choice.

aare

Quartet wrote: »

Lets keep a good attitude, stick to facts that have been checked and not resort to the use of platitudes...

Don't lecture me about sticking to the facts when I am the only one of us who isn't trying to turn the facts inside out...

The only time anyone in the UK is expected to contribute towards rent is when it exceeds the maximum allowed, whereas here, a portion of the base rate of Social Welfare (as of this budget, 24 euros pw) is automatically allocated to rent before supplement is even calculated.

The UK has an entirely different allocation of payments where rent is calculated in addition to the Social Welfare base rate.

...and there is no way one earth that I can regard your constant quest for excuses to advocate causing suffering to vulnerable people as "a good attitude".

aare

alegrabaroque wrote: »

Well maybe if you`d took the time to get to know him a bit as he wouldn`t have been my first choice as a sperm doner. You made a decision, ok a two second one, but its still a decision why do responsible people have to pay for it? Believe me every legal route should be taken to make him live up to his responsibilities also. Theres still no male contrapceptive as far as I know thou so ultimately shouldn`t you have been on one of the many many many available contraceptives out there or insisted on condoms? Don`t play the victim, victims don`t have a choice.

And grow up your somebodies role model and your obsessing over your ex`s girlfriend very mature!

So now you have psychic powers that tell you how, and why, single mothers met the father's of their children and got pregnant?

I don't think so...

weiss

turgon wrote:

Maybe some social welfare payments, such as dole, should be downsized and replaced with food vouchers?

It wasn't that long ago "butter" coupons were used.

Most shop keepers would accept these as payment for other goods.

I'm more concerned about the public sector and the government bleeding the country dry than anything else.

alegrabaroque

aare wrote: »

So now you have psychic powers that tell you how, and why, single mothers met the father's of their children and got pregnant?

I don't think so...

Eh...well as far as I know there is only one way to make a baby?lmfao

gcgirl

alegrabaroque wrote: »

Well maybe if you`d took the time to get to know him a bit as he wouldn`t have been my first choice as a sperm doner. You made a decision, ok a two second one, but its still a decision why do responsible people have to pay for it? Believe me every legal route should be taken to make him live up to his responsibilities also. Theres still no male contrapceptive as far as I know thou so ultimately shouldn`t you have been on one of the many many many available contraceptives out there or insisted on condoms? Don`t play the victim, victims don`t have a choice.

And grow up your somebodies role model and your obsessing over your ex`s girlfriend very mature!

What kind of person are you? not a very nice are you ? I am the one thats getting on with my life here i am the one with 20 euro's to do me till next thursday after i paid out everything and got food and the like i dont get out much i gave up smokin, I provide everything my kids needs so stop personally attacking people!

gcgirl

alegrabaroque wrote: »

Eh...well as far as I know there is only one way to make a baby?

Why are you making this personal?

aare

alegrabaroque wrote: »

Eh...well as far as I know there is only one way to make a baby?lmfao

But I rather think you went into rather more personal, and speculative detail than that, didn't you?

alegrabaroque wrote:

Well maybe if you`d took the time to get to know him a bit as he wouldn`t have been my first choice as a sperm doner. You made a decision, ok a two second one, but its still a decision why do responsible people have to pay for it? Believe me every legal route should be taken to make him live up to his responsibilities also. Theres still no male contrapceptive as far as I know thou so ultimately shouldn`t you have been on one of the many many many available contraceptives out there or insisted on condoms? Don`t play the victim, victims don`t have a choice.

And grow up your somebodies role model and your obsessing over your ex`s girlfriend very mature!

That kind of attack is really not justified, nor is it likely to be accurate.

flag123

I entirely agree with the slashing of the u20s dole to 100 quid.
The majority of people at that age that was claiming dole were having a party!..The way economics work is looking at majority, therefor they see that most of them people where after leaving school and walking right into a handy lump of cash each week, sure you can't blame them for not looking for a job( whatever chance of employment they'd have if they did).
I feel sorry for the genuine people under 20 that need the money and are in crap circumstances..I' am myself a student in my final year of secondary school, and I hear what my people my age that left school are doing with there dole, spending on drink and in some case drugs!..sure what else could they spend it on?..they have no interest in further education to save up for.
but again I feel sorry for the people that need it and like everyone else cannot find a job..

weiss

Why don't the government remove tax of condoms?

Is it because Irish government still lives in the dark ages, taking advice from a catholic church behind closed doors?

"wrong, regrettable and contrary to the common good." is what the so-called Bishops of Ireland said when there was debate last year on whether the government should reduce tax from 13.5% to 11%.

Bishops "utterly rejects the use and promotion of condoms,"

It would naturally promote promiscuity among Irelands population, we'd have high rates of STD's, high rate of unplanned pregnancies and single mothers living on social welfare... :rolleyes:

aare

weiss wrote: »

Why don't the government remove tax of condoms?

It won't solve the recession (unless the Government are gearing up for a saturation "Roger to Recovery" campaign), but that is SUCH a good idea...

It's insane, be in the right place, at the right time, and you get bombarded with free condoms...otherwise they are prohibitively expensive (apart from Boots "own brand" which are just *ordinarily* expensive).

nesf

Right, final warning about this. Personal attacks are not allowed in this forum.

mikemac

Off the wall idea here which probably breaches all sorts of EU competition law.:P

Hand out food vouchers as part payment of your benefits.
Farmers incomes are down, this might generate business and increase sales for Irish produce.

The government would be guranteed the money was being spent here, some particpating retailers will get increased sales and farmers could supply all this.
Of course, it'd be the factory and the retailers taking far more of a cut then the farmer, as always!

Everyone wins, no?
First link in google shows 28 million Americans recieving food stamps so it's not an new idea, sure we had it here before in the bad old days

jay-me

All the people saying "I would love a job" and "I'd give my right teste for the meer sniff of a job". Have an old look on jobs.ie there are plenty of jobs available and I have seen signs in town advertising for workers in shops and the likes. I know it isn't as easy now as before but there is jobs out there.

eddiehobbs

mikemac wrote: »

Off the wall idea here which probably breaches all sorts of EU competition law.:P

Hand out food vouchers as part payment of your benefits.
Farmers incomes are down, this might generate business and increase sales for Irish produce.

The government would be guranteed the money was being spent here, some particpating retailers will get increased sales and farmers could supply all this.
Of course, it'd be the factory and the retailers taking far more of a cut then the farmer, as always!

Everyone wins, no?
First link in google shows 28 million Americans recieving food stamps so it's not an new idea, sure we had it here before in the bad old days

Absolutly agree here. At the moment we have the ridiculous situation wherby alot of people are receiving payment here to spend out of the country be it northern ireland or elsewhere. Social welfare should be given in some sort of voucher system which can only be redeemed in businesses in the republic. This will improve the coffers and maintain / create jobs.

The payments are so generous here that i reckon imposing this condition on payments could not be resisted. People dont realise theyre contributing to the ruination of the economy by spending their money in the north. thats why the tax take is down and will continue to be down until this changes, and if the deterioration in the tax take continues there will be savage cuts in social welfare down the line.

mikemac

not everybody in Ireland has access to the internet or would know how to use that site or email a CV.
And even you'd agree that many agency jobs don't actually exist. There are countless threads over in work forum on it.

Fair point on the job notices though

Scofflaw

I've just removed an extremely inappropriate post and responses to it. Alegrabaroque, this is your last warning - do not make personal comments on or at or about other posters. If you cannot tell what is appropriate on an internet forum and what is not I would prefer you not to post.

I remain,
political correctness gone mad personified,
Scofflaw

gcgirl

Scofflaw wrote: »

I've just removed an extremely inappropriate post and responses to it. Alegrabaroque, this is your last warning - do not make personal comments on or at or about other posters. If you cannot tell what is appropriate on an internet forum and what is not I would prefer you not to post.

I remain,
political correctness gone mad personified,
Scofflaw

I think thats my que to wander back to ruggers forum!!

ynotdu

mikemac wrote: »

Off the wall idea here which probably breaches all sorts of EU competition law.:P

Hand out food vouchers as part payment of your benefits.
Farmers incomes are down, this might generate business and increase sales for Irish produce.

The government would be guranteed the money was being spent here, some particpating retailers will get increased sales and farmers could supply all this.
Of course, it'd be the factory and the retailers taking far more of a cut then the farmer, as always!

Everyone wins, no?
First link in google shows 28 million Americans recieving food stamps so it's not an new idea, sure we had it here before in the bad old days

Many feel deep shame signing on,food vouchers:eek: c,mon imagine handing them in instead of cash in holy nosey Ireland.
We are not,repeat not the U.S.A!getting worried at how many across various threads here have totally bought into the sink or swim,survivol of the fittest mentality:(

Celtic tiger ? did Ireland gaineth the world and loseth its soul(and 100,s of years of our values)in a decade?

are we a nice race of people at all?have we any depth?about ten years of a boom and so many now speak as if they are working for fox news

is there anything left worth the effort of saving here?its all got ugly.

aare

ynotdu wrote: »

Many feel deep shame signing on,food vouchers:eek: c,mon imagine handing them in instead of cash in holy nosey Ireland.
We are not,repeat not the U.S.A!getting worried at how many across various threads here have totally bought into the sink or swim,survivol of the fittest mentality:(

Celtic tiger ? did Ireland gaineth the world and loseth its soul(and 100,s of years of our values)in a decade?

are we a nice race of people at all?have we any depth?about ten years of a boom and so many now speak as if they are working for fox news

is there anything left worth the effort of saving here?its all got ugly.

You really have nailed it for me...

All we have left right now is the kindness and commonsense that once prevailed here, whatever, and so many people seem so desperate to waste that.

But there IS another side...other people are starting to support and encourage each other...outside, off the internet, everyone seems in good spirits, determined to keep smiling and do what they can to make life a little brighter...

We still have, not only our soul, but also our heart...or, at any rate, most of us do...

Quartet

aare wrote: »

The only time anyone in the UK is expected to contribute towards rent is when it exceeds the maximum allowed, whereas here, a portion of the base rate of Social Welfare (as of this budget, 24 euros pw) is automatically allocated to rent before supplement is even calculated.

...and there is no way one earth that I can regard your constant quest for excuses to advocate causing suffering to vulnerable people as "a good attitude".

I am glad we can agree on the fact of rent allowance and that there are situations where individuals need to pay a contribution towaeds the rent allowance in the North.

One of the reason for the payment of the maximum allowance is because the base payment is so low in the North £69 sterling as opposed to €204.

I have noticed there is an increasing amount of negative references to "attacking / causing suffering to the vulnerable" "frightening and intimidating the week" , "causing people to suffer depression" , Nazi's etc etc everytime someone poses any other opinion or fact to that expressed.

The unemployed do not constitute a homogenous group that can be in its entirety labelled "Weak", "Vulnerable" "Depressed" or "Intimidated". People who become unemployed (and that has included myself) are normal members of society who at any given period happen not in renumerated employment.

It is a given that some of those individuals unemployed may suffer from depression etc however there are many of those who have jobs also suffer from this.

Contributing information and ideas and avoiding personal attacks is what good discussion is all about. It is a cheap and offensive method of arguement to level Nazi type accusations at those who are contributing to the discussion.

Just because somebody may not agree with someone else should not mean that they are open season. If an individual has a personal issue with either depression, feeling vulnerable etc then that may be expressed if they wish to do so. To label the many thousands of unemployed people thus is wrong. Please dont label people as it really seves no positive purpose.

mikemac

ynotdu wrote: »

Many feel deep shame signing on,food vouchers:eek: c,mon imagine handing them in instead of cash in holy nosey Ireland.
We are not,repeat not the U.S.A!getting worried at how many across various threads here have totally bought into the sink or swim,survivol of the fittest mentality:(

Celtic tiger ? did Ireland gaineth the world and loseth its soul(and 100,s of years of our values)in a decade?

are we a nice race of people at all?have we any depth?about ten years of a boom and so many now speak as if they are working for fox news

is there anything left worth the effort of saving here?its all got ugly.

Nowhere in my post did I attack or seem to humiliate people on welfare, I've been there myself. What has fox news got to do with anything here?
Was just an off the wall idea but even then, it's not new and as I said 28 million Americans already get this, are we so different?

I listed four benefits of the scheme and you countered with one, possible humiliation. Got any other points before you instantly dismiss food vouchers?

Ronan|Raven

I have had to move onto the dole the last few months due to the severe downturn in the industry I work in and am now on short time like a large portion of people in the manufacturing sector (steel work etc) I can tell ya never did I hate it as much going in to sign on. There has been some horrid short sighted bull**** spouted in this thread, sadly boards nowadays reads like the comments page of the Daily Mail..

Welfare will be cut and id say we could see another mini budget introducing this in the latter thirsd quarter of this year as goods continue to devalue.

The slash in rent allowance is right imho, a relation in Germany works in a new department created there to deal with social housing payments and getting the prices paid to landlords etc dramatically reduced or the people given new lodgings after consultation with the parties involved at lower costs. This should be done here, I also agree about the drain the long term scroungers and this is what they are they are not the lads I know in their 50's who worked in manual labour jobs who sadly will not get another job in their pre 60's lifetime and to see the dejection they feel about it.

It was far to easy and lax for social welfare to turn a blind eye to the fraud that was and is being commited.

solas

ynotdu wrote: »

Many feel deep shame signing on,food vouchers:eek: c,mon imagine handing them in instead of cash in holy nosey Ireland.
We are not,repeat not the U.S.A!getting worried at how many across various threads here have totally bought into the sink or swim,survivol of the fittest mentality:(

Celtic tiger ? did Ireland gaineth the world and loseth its soul(and 100,s of years of our values)in a decade?

are we a nice race of people at all?have we any depth?about ten years of a boom and so many now speak as if they are working for fox news

is there anything left worth the effort of saving here?its all got ugly.

good thing thing this is just the internet and these people aren't real

aare

Quartet wrote: »

I am glad we can agree on the fact of rent allowance and that there are situations where individuals need to pay a contribution towaeds the rent allowance in the North.

Except that only applies when the rent in question exceeds the maximum payable, and was nothing to do with your point, which was that the two rates of payment are directly comparable, when, as one of them contains components (such as the first 24 euro plus contribution towards rents below the maximum limit) that the other does not, that is patently obviously not so.

Quartet wrote: »

Contributing information and ideas and avoiding personal attacks is what good discussion is all about. It is a cheap and offensive method of arguement to level Nazi type accusations at those who are contributing to the discussion.

It is something far worse to aspire to embrace and encourage attitudes towards others redolant of the early days of national socialism

Quartet wrote: »

Just because somebody may not agree with someone else should not mean that they are open season. If an individual has a personal issue with either depression, feeling vulnerable etc then that may be expressed if they wish to do so. To label the many thousands of unemployed people thus is wrong. Please dont label people as it really seves no positive purpose.

Just because we are in a recession, does not mean it is "open season" on anyone who is in a different social group to you that can create excuses to scapegoat.

Quartet

aare wrote: »

Except that only applies when the rent in question exceeds the maximum payable, and was nothing to do with your point, which was that the two rates of payment are directly comparable, when, as one of them contains components (such as the first 24 euro plus contribution towards rents below the maximum limit) that the other does not, that is patently obviously not so.

*sigh*
No that was not my point. For clarification please reread the original post

aare wrote: »

It is something far worse to aspire to embrace and encourage attitudes towards others redolant of the early days of national socialism

As I stated in my previous post

I have noticed there is an increasing amount of negative references to "attacking / causing suffering to the vulnerable" "frightening and intimidating the week" , "causing people to suffer depression" , Nazi's etc etc everytime someone poses any other opinion or fact to that expressed.

(I fogot to add use of the phrase "Scapegoating")

Well there it is again

national socialism

.

I will reiterate what I said before - Contributing information and ideas and avoiding personal attacks is what good discussion is all about. It is a cheap and offensive method of arguement to level Nazi type accusations at those who are contributing to the discussion.

aare wrote: »

Just because we are in a recession, does not mean it is "open season" on anyone who is in a different social group to you that can create excuses to scapegoat.

This is a discussion forum, not a Country Club. There is no requirement to presume to know or ask someones "social group". Labeling individuals does not contribute to the discussion.

I will reiterate once again what I said before - Contributing information and ideas and avoiding personal attacks is what good discussion is all about. Keep the replies to the point ie No scapegoats, Nazis, National Socialists, attacking the vunerable, weak, depressed accusations. Please stick to the facts.

aare

Quartet wrote: »

*sigh*
No that was not my point.

Yes it was, you were insisting on a direct comparison between rates of Welfare in the UK and here...which is inapplicable because the are calculated and paid in a totally different way.

Distorting facts in order to demand punitive measures against a minority to which one does not belong IS uncannily like the parameters of the rise of National Socialism on Germany in the 30s.

If you don't like the comparison, try rethinking the behaviour.

Quartet

aare wrote: »

Yes it was, you were insisting on a direct comparison between rates of Welfare in the UK and here...which is inapplicable because the are calculated and paid in a totally different way.

Distorting facts in order to demand punitive measures against a minority to which one does not belong IS uncannily like the parameters of the rise of National Socialism on Germany in the 30s.

If you don't like the comparison, try rethinking the behaviour.

No that was NOt the point I was making....I have attempted to explain it but would appear that the take up is wanting..

There you go again !

National Socialism

...

I will reiterate what I said before - Contributing information and ideas and avoiding personal attacks is what good discussion is all about. It is a cheap and offensive method of arguement to level Nazi type accusations at those who are contributing to the discussion.

nesf

aare wrote: »

Yes it was, you were insisting on a direct comparison between rates of Welfare in the UK and here...which is inapplicable because the are calculated and paid in a totally different way.

Distorting facts in order to demand punitive measures against a minority to which one does not belong IS uncannily like the parameters of the rise of National Socialism on Germany in the 30s.

If you don't like the comparison, try rethinking the behaviour.

Please do not liken people to Nazis on this forum, thanks.

aare

Sorry Nesf,

I didn't intend it as an attack...just as an historical parallel to that specific attitude. How exact it is genuinely scares me.

Actually I am thinking of just not responding to Quartet's posts any more, all the distortions and negatives are just one big downer that get's us nowhere, and the more I try to discuss it the more extreme he seems to get.

I feel my world is just as "out of control" but I choose to deal with it by stripping down a defunct deluxe lawnmower (including "my very first carburettor"), and getting it running. I can't even relate to people who deal with it by wanting to see other people suffer.

road_high

Even they spent a fraction of the social welfare bill on stimuli for creating jobs I'm sure it would be better spent than simply spending money on people to do nothing...

aare

mfitzy wrote: »

Even they spent a fraction of the social welfare bill on stimuli for creating jobs I'm sure it would be better spent than simply spending money on people to do nothing...

The trouble is that it wouldn't be spent effectively on stimuli or creating jobs...

Most of the FAS budget has always been wasted on creating an artificial appearance of employment with schemes that are little better than people digging holes and filling them up again in real terms, quite apart from leaking misappropriations like a sieve...and the buck doesn't stop there, because the structure they are working within actually makes it easier to do that than to do anything realistic.

It would be far, far better to go on giving claimants enough to live on instead and encourage schemes for using that pool of available labour to generate zero or low cost savings and profits that can be used to bolster the ailing economy.

KittyeeTrix

As a person on the dole I do not mind taking a "hit" like we did with the christmas bonus but I very much do mind the idea of being labelled a sponger. As a mother I am also pretty sick and tired of the demands of some people to cut the child benefit payment. Some of us less well off do use this money for everyday bills and would be wrecked without it..
I absolutely understand that the taxpayer is taking a major hit at the moment and it is an extremely difficult time for them too!!

You don't see the people who are on the dole screaming for more to be taken off the taxpayer, I don't have the answer but just try to ease off us a little. We seem to be the flogging horse for a lot of peoples anger at the moment

I must agree with Aare though, in that I feel many people in the country have allowed themselves to be overcome with a "them" and "us" mentality. They seem to be comfortable with the idea of making people who are struggling, struggle even more...

We seem to have become a nation obsessed with money..... and material goods.
I have so many friends who live in huge houses, with 3 bathrooms, big jeeps, plasma tv's and the like. Their homes look like they are features in an interior design magazine. I remember in the 80's we didn't turn on each other like this and maybe it was that kind of standing together that got us all through that economic downturn.

Before anybody jumps on the fact that I may not know everything there is about politics or economics, I will save you posting time and admit that I know nothing whatsoever about any of it, but I will say this:

I know that when a person is down the citizens of a good decent Ireland would not dig in the boot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

KittyeeTrix

mfitzy wrote: »

Even they spent a fraction of the social welfare bill on stimuli for creating jobs I'm sure it would be better spent than simply spending money on people to do nothing...

I wish this thread could get a big huge blinking sign that posters could see before they post
Preferably it would read

GLOBAL RECESSION TO
LAST UNTIL 2???

because I don't think everyone is aware of it yet!!!!!!!!

people can't help being unemployed at the moment so why hurt them even more

road_high

fluffyorganic1 wrote: »

I wish this thread could get a big huge blinking sign that posters could see before they post
Preferably it would read

GLOBAL RECESSION TO
LAST UNTIL 2???

because I don't think everyone is aware of it yet!!!!!!!!

people can't help being unemployed at the moment so why hurt them even more

What difference would that make? Paying people to do nothing, global reccession or not doesn't add up to me

KittyeeTrix

mfitzy wrote: »

What difference would that make? Paying people to do nothing, global reccession or not doesn't add up to me

Sigh..........
Honest to god, I can't believe I'm getting into this kinda tussle again about "paying people to do nothing"
That is not a correct assesment of the social welfare as far as I know
I believe it was set up to help individuals of a society to survive and live if they could not work for a number of different reasons,
Old age
Disability
Long-term illness
Unmarried person with kids
Unemployment due to GLOBAL RECESSION

What part of that does not add up to you?

road_high

fluffyorganic1 wrote: »

Sigh..........
Honest to god, I can't believe I'm getting into this kinda tussle again about "paying people to do nothing"
That is not a correct assesment of the social welfare as far as I know
I believe it was set up to help individuals of a society to survive and live if they could not work for a number of different reasons,
Old age
Disability
Long-term illness
Unmarried person with kids
Unemployment due to GLOBAL RECESSION

What part of that does not add up to you?

I tell you what doesn't add up to me....this country of just over 4 million people is spending 21 Billion on Social Welfare this year.
We are estimated to take in just 33 or 34 billion in tax revenues this year.

Like it or not this cannot go on. We just can't afford that level of Welfare spending. It's that simple for me.

aare

fluffyorganic1 wrote: »

people can't help being unemployed at the moment so why hurt them even more

That is the bottom line...

But I am in favour of persuading unemployed people to give back anything they can in time, skills and services...

Even if all that achieves is to make somebody's day (in an HEALTHY way) then it's a step in the right direction.

Quartet

aare wrote: »

I didn't intend it as an attack...just as an historical parallel to that specific attitude. How exact it is genuinely scares me.

Actually I am thinking of just not responding to Quartet's posts any more, all the distortions and negatives are just one big downer that get's us nowhere, and the more I try to discuss it the more extreme he seems to get..

You off again aare! Its the same thing whatever way you put it. Calling names and hurling abuse when you dont agree with somebody else point of view on quoted facts and figures is not discussion it is bullying.

What you are talking about was caused by building up defined sterotypes and hurling allegations and stiffling debate. So for gs give over and engage in proper discussion - not allegation, not mud slinging and not attempting to stifle debate and the free expression of ideas. You have levied this allegation not just at myself but at many other posters in this and other thread.

So let us get back to the discussion of this thread concerning Welfare Payments in a polite and reasonable manner.

KittyeeTrix

mfitzy wrote: »

I tell you what doesn't add up to me....this country of just over 4 million people is spending 21 Billion on Social Welfare this year.
We are estimated to take in just 33 or 34 billion in tax revenues this year.

Like it or not this cannot go on. We just can't afford that level of Welfare spending. It's that simple for me.

Of course things can't go on the way they have been but our government has set up a situation whereby
people can hide behind the dole for years,
where ordinary folks are paying prices for houses that could get you a mini mansion in Bel Air
where students have no idea what the hell is going to happen with regards fees

The ordinary person recently on the dole through no fault of their is now nearly having their effigy burnt on the street by the "angry mob"

Whatever the answer is, I don't think it solely lies in witholding social welfare to the decent once-working until recently people whom we all know out there..

You seem to have a good grasp on "economics",
Do you not have any other suggestions for the money leaking out of the economy?

KittyeeTrix

aare wrote: »

That is the bottom line...

But I am in favour of persuading unemployed people to give back anything they can in time, skills and services...

Even if all that achieves is to make somebody's day (in an HEALTHY way) then it's a step in the right direction.

Absolutely agree with you
There must be some way that the skills of unemployed people could be utilised.
That is, in a way that it would not remove jobs of others currently employed....
ps. Keep holding the upper moral ground Aare:)

aare

Quartet wrote: »

You off again aare! Its the same thing whatever way you put it. Calling names and hurling abuse when you dont agree with somebody else point of view on quoted facts and figures is not discussion it is bullying.

What you are talking about was caused by building up defined sterotypes and hurling allegations and stiffling debate. So for gs give over and engage in proper discussion - not allegation, not mud slinging and not attempting to stifle debate and the free expression of ideas. You have levied this allegation not just at myself but at many other posters in this and other thread.

So let us get back to the discussion of this thread concerning Welfare Payments in a polite and reasonable manner.

I have no intention of responding to you any more, it only seems to make you more extreme, and that causes me significant distress.

fluffyorganic1 wrote: »

Of course things can't go on the way they have been but our government has set up a situation whereby
people can hide behind the dole for years,
where ordinary folks are paying prices for houses that could get you a mini mansion in Bel Air
where students have no idea what the hell is going to happen with regards fees

The ordinary person recently on the dole through no fault of their is now nearly having their effigy burnt on the street by the "angry mob"

Absolutely...the more unity and less hate and divisiveness we have at this time the better it will be for ALL of us.

ohdelightful

clearly if you had a family to support and a mortgage to pay u wouldnt be making such comments. I would like to see you live on what some ppl on social welfare recieve. You would swear they were spongers!! :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

KittyeeTrix

[quote=Quartet;59795200.]

No scapegoats, Nazis, National Socialists, attacking the vunerable, weak, depressed accusations. Please stick to the facts.[/quote]

As one of those currently on the dole, I am feeling vulnerable, weak and depressed

KittyeeTrix

Forgot to say feeling attacked as well

aare

fluffyorganic1 wrote: »

Absolutely agree with you
There must be some way that the skills of unemployed people could be utilised.
That is, in a way that it would not remove jobs of others currently employed....
ps. Keep holding the upper moral ground Aare:)

So true, when we don't have any money we need to learn to barter and gift what we DO have...

Skills...even just time...can we figure out ways to donate our time and skills to saving other people, and/or the state money?

This is an EMERGENCY, and the best way to deal with emergencies is to support each other and pull together...not beat each other up over "who's fault it is"

PS stay up here with me and hold my hand...I'M AFRAID OF HEIGHTS:eek:

gcgirl

I'm just waiting for the announcement that the Gas Chambers are ready to be used!!