No decrease in Social Welfare Payments?

Quartet

aare wrote: »

Yes it was, you were insisting on a direct comparison between rates of Welfare in the UK and here...which is inapplicable because the are calculated and paid in a totally different way.

Distorting facts in order to demand punitive measures against a minority to which one does not belong IS uncannily like the parameters of the rise of National Socialism on Germany in the 30s.

If you don't like the comparison, try rethinking the behaviour.

No that was NOt the point I was making....I have attempted to explain it but would appear that the take up is wanting..

There you go again !

National Socialism

...

I will reiterate what I said before - Contributing information and ideas and avoiding personal attacks is what good discussion is all about. It is a cheap and offensive method of arguement to level Nazi type accusations at those who are contributing to the discussion.

nesf

aare wrote: »

Yes it was, you were insisting on a direct comparison between rates of Welfare in the UK and here...which is inapplicable because the are calculated and paid in a totally different way.

Distorting facts in order to demand punitive measures against a minority to which one does not belong IS uncannily like the parameters of the rise of National Socialism on Germany in the 30s.

If you don't like the comparison, try rethinking the behaviour.

Please do not liken people to Nazis on this forum, thanks.

aare

Sorry Nesf,

I didn't intend it as an attack...just as an historical parallel to that specific attitude. How exact it is genuinely scares me.

Actually I am thinking of just not responding to Quartet's posts any more, all the distortions and negatives are just one big downer that get's us nowhere, and the more I try to discuss it the more extreme he seems to get.

I feel my world is just as "out of control" but I choose to deal with it by stripping down a defunct deluxe lawnmower (including "my very first carburettor"), and getting it running. I can't even relate to people who deal with it by wanting to see other people suffer.

road_high

Even they spent a fraction of the social welfare bill on stimuli for creating jobs I'm sure it would be better spent than simply spending money on people to do nothing...

aare

mfitzy wrote: »

Even they spent a fraction of the social welfare bill on stimuli for creating jobs I'm sure it would be better spent than simply spending money on people to do nothing...

The trouble is that it wouldn't be spent effectively on stimuli or creating jobs...

Most of the FAS budget has always been wasted on creating an artificial appearance of employment with schemes that are little better than people digging holes and filling them up again in real terms, quite apart from leaking misappropriations like a sieve...and the buck doesn't stop there, because the structure they are working within actually makes it easier to do that than to do anything realistic.

It would be far, far better to go on giving claimants enough to live on instead and encourage schemes for using that pool of available labour to generate zero or low cost savings and profits that can be used to bolster the ailing economy.

KittyeeTrix

As a person on the dole I do not mind taking a "hit" like we did with the christmas bonus but I very much do mind the idea of being labelled a sponger. As a mother I am also pretty sick and tired of the demands of some people to cut the child benefit payment. Some of us less well off do use this money for everyday bills and would be wrecked without it..
I absolutely understand that the taxpayer is taking a major hit at the moment and it is an extremely difficult time for them too!!

You don't see the people who are on the dole screaming for more to be taken off the taxpayer, I don't have the answer but just try to ease off us a little. We seem to be the flogging horse for a lot of peoples anger at the moment

I must agree with Aare though, in that I feel many people in the country have allowed themselves to be overcome with a "them" and "us" mentality. They seem to be comfortable with the idea of making people who are struggling, struggle even more...

We seem to have become a nation obsessed with money..... and material goods.
I have so many friends who live in huge houses, with 3 bathrooms, big jeeps, plasma tv's and the like. Their homes look like they are features in an interior design magazine. I remember in the 80's we didn't turn on each other like this and maybe it was that kind of standing together that got us all through that economic downturn.

Before anybody jumps on the fact that I may not know everything there is about politics or economics, I will save you posting time and admit that I know nothing whatsoever about any of it, but I will say this:

I know that when a person is down the citizens of a good decent Ireland would not dig in the boot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

KittyeeTrix

mfitzy wrote: »

Even they spent a fraction of the social welfare bill on stimuli for creating jobs I'm sure it would be better spent than simply spending money on people to do nothing...

I wish this thread could get a big huge blinking sign that posters could see before they post
Preferably it would read

GLOBAL RECESSION TO
LAST UNTIL 2???

because I don't think everyone is aware of it yet!!!!!!!!

people can't help being unemployed at the moment so why hurt them even more

road_high

fluffyorganic1 wrote: »

I wish this thread could get a big huge blinking sign that posters could see before they post
Preferably it would read

GLOBAL RECESSION TO
LAST UNTIL 2???

because I don't think everyone is aware of it yet!!!!!!!!

people can't help being unemployed at the moment so why hurt them even more

What difference would that make? Paying people to do nothing, global reccession or not doesn't add up to me

KittyeeTrix

mfitzy wrote: »

What difference would that make? Paying people to do nothing, global reccession or not doesn't add up to me

Sigh..........
Honest to god, I can't believe I'm getting into this kinda tussle again about "paying people to do nothing"
That is not a correct assesment of the social welfare as far as I know
I believe it was set up to help individuals of a society to survive and live if they could not work for a number of different reasons,
Old age
Disability
Long-term illness
Unmarried person with kids
Unemployment due to GLOBAL RECESSION

What part of that does not add up to you?

road_high

fluffyorganic1 wrote: »

Sigh..........
Honest to god, I can't believe I'm getting into this kinda tussle again about "paying people to do nothing"
That is not a correct assesment of the social welfare as far as I know
I believe it was set up to help individuals of a society to survive and live if they could not work for a number of different reasons,
Old age
Disability
Long-term illness
Unmarried person with kids
Unemployment due to GLOBAL RECESSION

What part of that does not add up to you?

I tell you what doesn't add up to me....this country of just over 4 million people is spending 21 Billion on Social Welfare this year.
We are estimated to take in just 33 or 34 billion in tax revenues this year.

Like it or not this cannot go on. We just can't afford that level of Welfare spending. It's that simple for me.

aare

fluffyorganic1 wrote: »

people can't help being unemployed at the moment so why hurt them even more

That is the bottom line...

But I am in favour of persuading unemployed people to give back anything they can in time, skills and services...

Even if all that achieves is to make somebody's day (in an HEALTHY way) then it's a step in the right direction.

Quartet

aare wrote: »

I didn't intend it as an attack...just as an historical parallel to that specific attitude. How exact it is genuinely scares me.

Actually I am thinking of just not responding to Quartet's posts any more, all the distortions and negatives are just one big downer that get's us nowhere, and the more I try to discuss it the more extreme he seems to get..

You off again aare! Its the same thing whatever way you put it. Calling names and hurling abuse when you dont agree with somebody else point of view on quoted facts and figures is not discussion it is bullying.

What you are talking about was caused by building up defined sterotypes and hurling allegations and stiffling debate. So for gs give over and engage in proper discussion - not allegation, not mud slinging and not attempting to stifle debate and the free expression of ideas. You have levied this allegation not just at myself but at many other posters in this and other thread.

So let us get back to the discussion of this thread concerning Welfare Payments in a polite and reasonable manner.

KittyeeTrix

mfitzy wrote: »

I tell you what doesn't add up to me....this country of just over 4 million people is spending 21 Billion on Social Welfare this year.
We are estimated to take in just 33 or 34 billion in tax revenues this year.

Like it or not this cannot go on. We just can't afford that level of Welfare spending. It's that simple for me.

Of course things can't go on the way they have been but our government has set up a situation whereby
people can hide behind the dole for years,
where ordinary folks are paying prices for houses that could get you a mini mansion in Bel Air
where students have no idea what the hell is going to happen with regards fees

The ordinary person recently on the dole through no fault of their is now nearly having their effigy burnt on the street by the "angry mob"

Whatever the answer is, I don't think it solely lies in witholding social welfare to the decent once-working until recently people whom we all know out there..

You seem to have a good grasp on "economics",
Do you not have any other suggestions for the money leaking out of the economy?

KittyeeTrix

aare wrote: »

That is the bottom line...

But I am in favour of persuading unemployed people to give back anything they can in time, skills and services...

Even if all that achieves is to make somebody's day (in an HEALTHY way) then it's a step in the right direction.

Absolutely agree with you
There must be some way that the skills of unemployed people could be utilised.
That is, in a way that it would not remove jobs of others currently employed....
ps. Keep holding the upper moral ground Aare:)

aare

Quartet wrote: »

You off again aare! Its the same thing whatever way you put it. Calling names and hurling abuse when you dont agree with somebody else point of view on quoted facts and figures is not discussion it is bullying.

What you are talking about was caused by building up defined sterotypes and hurling allegations and stiffling debate. So for gs give over and engage in proper discussion - not allegation, not mud slinging and not attempting to stifle debate and the free expression of ideas. You have levied this allegation not just at myself but at many other posters in this and other thread.

So let us get back to the discussion of this thread concerning Welfare Payments in a polite and reasonable manner.

I have no intention of responding to you any more, it only seems to make you more extreme, and that causes me significant distress.

fluffyorganic1 wrote: »

Of course things can't go on the way they have been but our government has set up a situation whereby
people can hide behind the dole for years,
where ordinary folks are paying prices for houses that could get you a mini mansion in Bel Air
where students have no idea what the hell is going to happen with regards fees

The ordinary person recently on the dole through no fault of their is now nearly having their effigy burnt on the street by the "angry mob"

Absolutely...the more unity and less hate and divisiveness we have at this time the better it will be for ALL of us.

ohdelightful

clearly if you had a family to support and a mortgage to pay u wouldnt be making such comments. I would like to see you live on what some ppl on social welfare recieve. You would swear they were spongers!! :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

KittyeeTrix

[quote=Quartet;59795200.]

No scapegoats, Nazis, National Socialists, attacking the vunerable, weak, depressed accusations. Please stick to the facts.[/quote]

As one of those currently on the dole, I am feeling vulnerable, weak and depressed

KittyeeTrix

Forgot to say feeling attacked as well

aare

fluffyorganic1 wrote: »

Absolutely agree with you
There must be some way that the skills of unemployed people could be utilised.
That is, in a way that it would not remove jobs of others currently employed....
ps. Keep holding the upper moral ground Aare:)

So true, when we don't have any money we need to learn to barter and gift what we DO have...

Skills...even just time...can we figure out ways to donate our time and skills to saving other people, and/or the state money?

This is an EMERGENCY, and the best way to deal with emergencies is to support each other and pull together...not beat each other up over "who's fault it is"

PS stay up here with me and hold my hand...I'M AFRAID OF HEIGHTS:eek:

gcgirl

I'm just waiting for the announcement that the Gas Chambers are ready to be used!!

Quartet

aare wrote: »

I have no intention of responding to you any more, it only seems to make you more extreme, and that causes me significant distress..

Ok good on you. Hope you feel better soon. So back to the discussion

Here is some infomation from the SW site regarding the latest changes

http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Press/PressReleases/2009/Pages/pr070409.aspx

Social Welfare spending to be 20% higher than in 2008

Government avoids a general cut in weekly Social Welfare payment rates - Hanafin

By providing almost €21.3 billion for social welfare – 20% more than what was spent in 2008 – the Government has ensured that income support will be available to people who need it and has avoided a general cut in weekly social welfare payment rates.
According to Minister Hanafin, “the focus of the social welfare measures announced today is to help people get access to education, training and work experience.”
“People will now be able to access the back to education and back to work schemes much earlier. A new graduate placement programme is being developed in conjunction with the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment. And we are also putting in place a new incentive to encourage 18 and 19 year old jobseekers to avail of the education and training opportunities and improve their skills, in order to try to avoid them becoming long-term welfare dependent from a young age” she said.

KittyeeTrix

gcgirl wrote: »

I'm just waiting for the announcement that the Gas Chambers are ready to be used!!

The dolers should be okay for a while yet, I hear elderly and non-nationals first!!!!:eek:

KittyeeTrix

Quartet wrote: »

Ok good on you. Hope you feel better soon. So back to the discussion

Here is some infomation from the SW site regarding the latest changes

http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Press/PressReleases/2009/Pages/pr070409.aspx

</H1>

What's your point?
I don't get the </H1> thing

gcgirl

fluffyorganic1 wrote: »

The dolers should be okay for a while yet, I hear elderly and non-nationals first!!!!:eek:

I told my gran they would be starting with the over 66's first so i was kind of right, She would actually prefer a bullet in the back of the head though!!lol

gcgirl

fluffyorganic1 wrote: »

What's your point?
I don't get the </H1> thing

Maybe the </H1> is a code for something!! Humm Strokes chin!

KittyeeTrix

gcgirl wrote: »

Maybe the </H1> is a code for something!! Humm Strokes chin!

Jeez, your right, maybe they're coming for us early.......
Best get the kids down to the bunker quick....

Quartet

fluffyorganic1 wrote: »

What's your point?
I don't get the </H1> thing

Ref Information on original post in thread...

daisy123 wrote: »

I'm just wondering is there a reason behind the no decrease in Job Seekers Allowance/Benefits? Legislation or something? It was promised that all areas of society would bear the brunt equally, and yet everybodies income is coming down except those who are not working.

What </H1> thing? Neither do I

Heineken Helen

jay-me wrote: »

All the people saying "I would love a job" and "I'd give my right teste for the meer sniff of a job". Have an old look on jobs.ie there are plenty of jobs available and I have seen signs in town advertising for workers in shops and the likes. I know it isn't as easy now as before but there is jobs out there.

well said... there ARE plenty of jobs... I know cos I apply for at LEAST 40 a week and only stop applying when I've applied for all I'm capable of doing. Funny how I'm lucky to hear back from two of them... and some sites show how many people have applied for the job... it's often 300+ .

So don't ASSUME to know anything thank you:cool:

Heineken Helen

fluffyorganic1 wrote: »

Absolutely agree with you
There must be some way that the skills of unemployed people could be utilised.
That is, in a way that it would not remove jobs of others currently employed....
ps. Keep holding the upper moral ground Aare:)

Absolutely... I've suggested things like focus groups... there are plenty of super intelligent people on the dole now and if they could get their heads together... or if there was somehow people of a certain skillset could get together with similar people and are encouraged to set up their own business or something.

aare

Heineken Helen wrote: »

Absolutely... I've suggested things like focus groups... there are plenty of super intelligent people on the dole now and if they could get their heads together... or if there was somehow people of a certain skillset could get together with similar people and are encouraged to set up their own business or something.

That is a brilliant idea...

But the thing is...there is no point in waiting for the Government to organise that (one word :- FAS) people are going to have to get up the impetus to do that THEMSELVES.

Hey...could we stop inhaling the toxic begrudgery around here and formulate a specific request to get a board opened where unemployed people could start to network and think tank?

Start a USEFUL revolution???