final written warning

gerrycollins

Dublin_Gunner wrote: »

Beep - I'm afraid you have the wrong answer.

Sure, for anything considered to be a major breach of conduct, what could be considered gross misconduct, then yes indeed, this may warrant an immediate written warning, or dismissal if the case of misconduct was severe enough.

This is not 'fast tracking'.

For any other circumstance - especially in this case where it is deemed to be performance related, proper disciplinary procedures MUST be followed, else the employer's conduct in dealing with the matter be deemed to infringe on your employment rights.

I've yet to see an EAT to NOT penalise an employer for not following proper disciplinary procedures.

you are both right and wrong.

For dade this process started within his first year with the company and a company is entitled within the first year of an employees time with them to either fire him for any wrong doings etc or skip right ahead to the final written warning as a kinda second chance/warning situation. They could just say its a written warning but the wording is not severe enough.

Where you are right is when dade would be employed over the one year then any issues that arise must be dealt with thru the displinary process that you discribe where multiple chance are given before dismissal as a final consequence.

However after the first year has been competed a company still has a choice of where it wishes to commence the displinary process depending on the "crime" committed. However for minor things such as attendance and time keeping it would start with the usual verbal warnings but turning up drunk could result with a written warning etc but the

kravmaga

@op Dade

Having read all the posts I am in support of your situation.

Sounds like the whole thing was caused by an over sensitive/ zealous CEO.

You also made the right decision of informing SIPTU at the very start.

Keep us informed of any up-dates.............:)

dade

blueeyedboy wrote: »

@op Dade

Having read all the posts I am in support of your situation.

Sounds like the whole thing was caused by an over sensitive/ zealous CEO.

You also made the right decision of informing SIPTU at the very start.

Keep us informed of any up-dates.............:)

Hey how's it hangang long time no chat.

well the situation is I'm off work for a bit due to exams and such so it takes teh pressure off me, I won't be reading any emails no matter who they are from. The matter is being refered to the LRC but the company do not have to attend. That said IMO it makes them look bad if they don't, especially if you consider that the person with teh problem is the CEO so IMO there is no possibility for me to recieve a fair and un biased hearing. so if it was me to appear fair as a HR manager who had nothing to hide i'd have no problem turning up, at the end of teh day if you have done nothing wrong you have nothing to fear. but like i said they don't have to turn up.

what will happen is that'll probably keep alleging poor performance and put all these KPIs in front of me and i'll play nice for a while, then something will come up and i'll be gone, then the fun really starts. because i have my resignation letter already written and in it i have clearly stated that i left because of this situation and i found that my position was untenable and felt i had no choice but to leave. that means if and when i take a case i've laid the ground work for constructive dismissal. the problem with constructive is that the burden of proof is mine, so i have to be careful with what i do over the next few weeks.

so if anyone knows of any sys admin contracts coming up pop me a PM LOL

i got another letter off her yesterday full of more lies and fabrications, so I'm spending tomorrow going through everything she has said and taking it apart piece by piece, refuting her claims highlighting her inaccuricies and correcting her fabrications, I'm approaching this like a research project i look at all the "facts" and then attacking those facts and to be honest it's very easy in this case. one is that she claims i never appealed, but i have two emails and one letter dubmitted within 10 days of her letter (one within 2 days) stuff liek that.

dade

gerrycollins wrote: »

For dade this process started within his first year with the company and a company is entitled within the first year of an employees time with them to either fire him for any wrong doings etc or skip right ahead to the final written warning .

your dead right, but one point in my instance is that I was considered a full time employee ewho had successfully completed probation. So your points are still 100% correct with my understanding of teh law anyway. But their "fast Track" process for those between 6 & 12 months is a dicriminatory process because two full time employees are treated differently in the discipline process, but this could be because teh company want to give someone that has passed probation a second chance

gerrycollins wrote: »

However after the first year has been competed a company still has a choice of where it wishes to commence the displinary process depending on the "crime" committed. However for minor things such as attendance and time keeping it would start with the usual verbal warnings but turning up drunk could result with a written warning etc but the

agree totally, if i turned up drunk, caused them to lose millions or suffer prosecution because i failed to uphold the law I'd be happy to accept dismissal.
or if i was consistantly late, taking long lunches, you tubing (or boardsing) all day etc tehn again i'd accept a warning of some sort.

But for a blackberry that was allegedly not working? for not answering an email that was sent on a sunday when i dont get paid to work out of hours on call. well sorry but ask my back side

What amazed me throughout teh years and still amazes me is the number of people that do not know their employment entitlements. I would think given the current climate more people will be learning more about it. this process has also made me think about a career change, I've always been interested in HR and I think this process has shown me how a HR manager should not operate. maybe HR is calling LOL

Tuvok

Hi Dade,

My experiences with HR managers has been quite bad as well. At the end of the day they are getting paid by the company so they will do whatever the CEO or senior managers say. I know someone who moved out of HR into another area as she said that her hands were often tied in these situations. She knew that the employee was being treatly badly but she wasn't allowed say anything about it.:(

gerrycollins

dade wrote: »

your dead right, but one point in my instance is that I was considered a full time employee ewho had successfully completed probation. So your points are still 100% correct with my understanding of teh law anyway. But their "fast Track" process for those between 6 & 12 months is a dicriminatory process because two full time employees are treated differently in the discipline process, but this could be because teh company want to give someone that has passed probation a second chance


But for a blackberry that was allegedly not working? for not answering an email that was sent on a sunday when i dont get paid to work out of hours on call. well sorry but ask my back side

the "considered" full time is a bit of a grey area but still the one year holds up.

A question on the email. I think you said it in a post that you read it yourself on the sunday? am i correct?

whats are the chances of a auto read reply and that got his goat up that you didnt reply for 24 hrs?

sorry to revisit again?

dade

gerrycollins wrote: »

the "considered" full time is a bit of a grey area but still the one year holds up.

yeah i know it does so they can fast track it final warning or dismisal if they like. But my point is that it discriminates against one employerr who is full time and another. both full time employees or for want of a better term, both permenant employees (non contract non probabtion) do not have the same discipline process applied to them, under SI146 your discippline porcess must be fair and just. when an employee is between 6 & 12 months with my company teh discipline process is not fair because of this and therefore can also me impline to be unjust

gerrycollins wrote: »

A question on the email. I think you said it in a post that you read it yourself on the sunday? am i correct?

whats are the chances of a auto read reply and that got his goat up that you didnt reply for 24 hrs?

sorry to revisit again?

no worries it's not opening any wounds, I've been going over teh emails all day.

Basically he sent the mail on the sunday afternoon saying that he could not hear people on the phone, And that he had tried a wired handsfree to see if that worked. i got into work between 730 and 830 on teh monday, read the email and responded immediatly. However a week previous when i gave teh guy the BB, I emailed him my personal phone number so he could contacr me if there was any problems. he never called. he was given his BB on March 4th, he emailed about the volume on March 15. so it was either working just fine til that point then broke. not unheard of OR if you consider teh following

I July 08 he had problems with his BB, we gave him 3 replacement handsets in the space of 2 week coz each time it "wasn't working" but the third handset was actuall the first one he said was broken and it left my desk working perfectly fine, got stuck in a paddded box and sent to him in Fiji, it didn't work there or in New Zealand apparantly. BUT i was never asked to configure a 4th device for him at that time. SO either the fairies fixed it OR there was an issue with the organic interface on the device during this period he was also given my private phone number to call if he had any problems. he didn't.

with this recent issue he came back into teh office and i asked if he needed me to look at the BB and he said no it's working now. So those magic blackberry faires must be in town.


my honest opinion is this. Om March 4 he wanted me to stay late and hand him his BB after a meeting he was attending. this meeting was due to start at 5.10PM i was due to leave work at 5 PM, also i couldn't stay beacuse i had a college class to attend and explained this to him. so he probbaly had his knickers in a bind over this. the following evening he turned off teh BB and din't know the PIN even though the card with the pin on it was in teh box that came with it and was explained to him were it was. teh PIN was even emailed out to him that day. on the sunday he had an issue with teh volume. as it was 11 days after the device was given to him I find it inconcievable that he would not have made or recieved a call in that time so teh device operated as expected. He probably turned down teh volume playing with the thing. I emailed him on teh monday asking him to check if teh volume had been reset. Now i never said in case you turned it down i just said in cased it has been reset. he probably felt like a mug because this is what happened and then decided to throw his weight around a little

Jonty

dade wrote: »

SO either the fairies fixed it OR there was an issue with the organic interface on the device

Good one. An old foreman I know used to say "ya know Jonty, there's no such thing as bad diggers, Its what's in the seat that counts!!"

Best of luck!!

Jagera

Any progress on this one?

doolox

Is Dade still Gainfully Employed?
Do bully bosses rule?
Are the jobs of decent hardworking Irishmen safe?

(Sounds like a Workers Party commercial..................)

But I'm curious........

"Oh where, oh where is Our James Connolly?"

mad m

Great reading....Any more updates Dade? More support for you here!

gerrycollins

mad m wrote: »

Great reading....Any more updates Dade? More support for you here!

think in another thread he has said he is out sick.

Jagera

gerrycollins wrote: »

think in another thread he has said he is out sick.

If there's no update by Monday he'll be getting a written warning.

gerrycollins

bw wrote: »

If there's no update by Monday he'll be getting a written warning.

ha ha nah just chuck him out post is less that a year old

dade

sorry folks was out sick again.

basically they sent me a letter with a number of complete fabrications in it and a new "plan" for my performance. this plan included stuff that is not within my remit. I'm a server admin, it's not in my job description to devise departmental strategy that would be the role of the CIO or IT manager. we have both.

So they said "we don't want to disturb you while out sick, btw you're not getting paid while out" which is fair enough i guess, i have had 2 weeks sick this year before now. all for genuine reasons and fully certified.

so anyway before i went out i sent her a nice long letter in it i pointed out the mistake either she or my manager made about a meeting. she claims he called it and i refused to go or discuss anything, but it was the other way around. i also pointed out that my contract has no stipulation for out of hours service. Also that i responded as soon as possible on the 16th to the bosses problem. I also said i gave him my own number so he could call me and he didn't so how could i be not performing as expected.

Oh she also claimed i acknowledged my lack of performance, and i kindly asked her to refrain from taking what ever narcotic she was on because it's causing her to hallucinate

ShooterSF

Just read this from start to finish. Best of luck Dade.

wmpdd3

BTW Dade does your company have a absentee limit ie 3% etc?

You don't want 2 issues going on at the same time.

stepbar

I've said it once before and I'll say it again, HR professionals are tossers. I can't believe it's even called a profession because there's so many bad ones out there. My most recent run in involved a requirement (directed by HR) that I have to go and do a particular qualification, otherwise I won't be allowed "graduate" from the particular grad programme I am on. I emailed the person in question back refuting this point (i.e. there's no such requirement on my contract) and I was ignored. They think they've heard the last from me but let me tell you they haven't.

Good luck with the issue you have and make sure you keep every piece of correspondence (email or otherwise). HR folk love to twist suitations so they can actually get you to do stuff that you are either not required to do or do stuff they just want you to do but have not discussed with you prior. I would sent a fairly pointed email back to the folk in question and allow them to respond. Usually shuts them up as political people like that would never dream of putting things in writing.

wmpdd3

dade wrote: »

ah this lass isn't the brightest light bulb, as soon as i told her i was bringing the union in she responded in writing that they do not recognise the union and i have no legal right to union representation. i thought it was Christmas usually you need to drag a statement like that out of people.

Wow that really is unbelievable!

I could do his/her job cause I can google laws and read boards.

dade

right another letter today.

firstly the matter is closed according to the company. the warning will remain on file for 9 months. the performance improvement plan will also be put into place and i have to address my concerns directly Witt my manager. Oh she also felt the need to define a manager to me coz you know I'm not a trained one myself from previous roles and have never worked before so don't know what a manger does :rolleyes:

apparently i did not appeal based upon the company's terms. terms not outlined the reject claims on misrepresentation and it is inappropriate of me to use such language "as it could be deemed to undermine the thrust and confidence that must exist as part of the employment relationship". is it just me or does that read as a threat cos i read that as a threat that if i continue to say they are lying sacks of sh!t I'll be fired.


apparently agreeing that i should have told someone that i left the blackberry on the owners desk is an admittance of poor performance. WTF yeah i said that but seriously is that really admittance of a whole spate of under performance issues?

apparently the have the right to assign me any duties they deem appropriate, never mind that its outside my role so i guess if the bog needs cleaning i must do it. tell you what folks I'm on the edge now. I'd so close to just walking out the door and telling her and him to shove it.

called union and they are in agreement that this has gone on long enough. I also called Nera, they suggested that i could take them for a breach in my contract. they used a fast track process that was stated as only being available for misconduct. so all other issues must be dealt with in the usual manner as laid out in the handbook. so they are sending paper work.


but you know what I'm done with this shower of cnuts. I'm gonna call the bank today according to my mortgage contract i can take a 6 month break from it. I'm gonna see can i do that. if so I'm walking and doing them for constructive dismissal.

breadmonkey

Good man Dade. I know it must be very mentally draining but hang in there. You've come so far and hopefully you'll nail these bastards to the wall.

Xiney

To be honest, I didn't see this being resolved anyway - I figured you'd probably be going for constructive dismissal in the end.

They sound like a right shower. You'll be well rid of them.

Good luck, seriously.

jeemojney

imo you won't win a constructive dismissal case, resigning has to be your absolute last resort and from reading thru you won't win, rights commissioner/tribunal wind find in their favour

if your only there for a year even if you did win you'll only get a grand or so, will it be worth the hassle ?

dade

jeemojney wrote: »

imo you won't win a constructive dismissal case, resigning has to be your absolute last resort and from reading thru you won't win, rights commissioner/tribunal wind find in their favour

can you explain how i may not win? my opinion is that it is impossible to keep working in the company for a number of reasons. 1 i feel that my manager showed no support during the process, something i should be able to rely on. 2 the company misrepresented facts, ignored appeals, the law and facts i put to them to me this means that the company will continue to behave in this manner 3 that my sentiments and statements will be twisted into mis-truths and lies so that if any other situation arises i will again fall victim to these lies. to me that's ample grounds. Oh and the fact that there is no one i can bring my concerns to HR has shown not be be neutral and my manager also

jeemojney wrote: »

if your only there for a year even if you did win you'll only get a grand or so, will it be worth the hassle ?

in a word yes. honestly. call it fighting the good fight if you will. i wont let anyone slander my name or reputation by making up lies about me these accusations can cause me not to be able to get another job if someone came here looking for a reference, picture it "ah yeah sure he worked here but you know he had bad performance reviews never stayed late and was inflexible" chance are I'm not going to get said job after such a reference. on the flip side if i won the reference could be yeah he worked her and took us to court for unfair/constructive dismissal. now an employer may consider me to be a trouble maker for that reason but if that is the case it wouldn't be a company i wanted to work for anyway to be honest.

jeemojney

don't get me wrong i'm on your side, it's only my opinion and maybe i'm being a bit definite in saying you won't win, your best to consult with the union guy (i found them to be useless) or even the labour court/lrc to see what they think of your situation, also check to see that you will get a hearing, something tells me that if you haven't been employed for 12 months then you may not qualify, bit of a grey area though, just be 100% before you resign

reading thru the determinations on the employment tribunal site eatribunal.ie, very very few constructive dismissal cases win, it's up to you to show that you had no alternative but to resign

as i say it only my opinion, if you feel it's worth fighting for (and btw i agree even if you only got 1c) then i wish you the best of luck, i understand exactly the frustration of working for people who haven't got the first idea of how to treat their (human being) employees and i hope they get all that's coming to them

dade

spoke to NERA yesterday and the guy said i may have grounds for a breach of the terms of my contract. of course that is dependant on what the exact wording on the contract is in relation to discipline. one thing he did say that surprised me is that Ireland has no laws on employment discipline procedures :eek: so basically you can be dragged into a room, no notice, no opportunity to Fair process and fired just coz they want to and once the procedure they follow is documented in your handbook/contract then it's pretty much OK.

gonna wait for the union guy to call me today, he emailed yesterday if i hear nothing by monday I'll call him about it and get him to get this thing heard ASAP.

dade

ok spoke to union this morning, basically what he's saying is that we submit the papers to LRC (which i thought he had done already) and try get arbitration done. problem is that the company consider the matter closed AND have no requirement to turn up to LRC. so its as useful as a fart in a space suit. UNLESS they fire me AFTER we approach the LRC coz then it could be used as ammo for unfair dismissal ie you fired me coz i went to LRC. Fat lot of good that is with a mortgage to pay.

One other option is breach of contract as i mentioned in my last post. that requires a solicitor i would think.

sent HR another letter today asking her if her statement of "it could be deemed to undermine the thrust and confidence that must exist as part of the employment relationship" is a threat and i will not be threatened, harassed or bullied by her. I also asked how an appeals decision could be made if i was not present at the appeal earning. I'm thinking I'll get another threat of drop it or else.


continually looking for work to get out of the place and the day an offer comes in is the day i walk, no notice nothing. i know that may come back to bite my ass but to be honest my sanity is worth more to me.

meeting today at 4PM in relation to the performance plan, unfortunately i can't refuse to attend this, its a legitimate request from my manager. I can however refuse the terms of the plan if that are not in my job description, of course HR are of the impression that i have to do anything they ask coz it's a concentration camp but there you go.


obviously the final option is suck it up, not gonna happen.

One think I'm curious about. any of you folks out there in It as sys admins, if you are required to provide out of hours support by being on call is there anything in your contracts about it? in mine it mentions hours worked and the need for flexibility. to me this means if needed stay late to do maintenance or do the odd weekend for upgrades and roll outs etc. but it does not involve monitoring email, answering phone calls to my phone (the company never provided me with one) are being within ear shot of a broadband connection so i can remote admin a system. my contract does not specify that i am required to be on call, there is an on call rota that i have never been included on and i have never received any additional pay for this type of service. so to my mind i am not required to provide anything other than my 9-5 and the obvious occasion that you have to work late or come in early or do weekends for critical changes etc. anyone any thoughts on that?

Xiney

At my old job we had on call phone coverage once a week and one weekend per month - it was very clearly laid out in our contract. I'm not a sysadmin though.

Sleipnir

dade wrote: »

One think I'm curious about. any of you folks out there in It as sys admins, if you are required to provide out of hours support by being on call is there anything in your contracts about it? in mine it mentions hours worked and the need for flexibility. to me this means if needed stay late to do maintenance or do the odd weekend for upgrades and roll outs etc. but it does not involve monitoring email, answering phone calls to my phone (the company never provided me with one) are being within ear shot of a broadband connection so i can remote admin a system. my contract does not specify that i am required to be on call, there is an on call rota that i have never been included on and i have never received any additional pay for this type of service. so to my mind i am not required to provide anything other than my 9-5 and the obvious occasion that you have to work late or come in early or do weekends for critical changes etc. anyone any thoughts on that?

Dade, I do on call support but it's a separate to my contract of employment and I get paid extra for it.
It states that I need to be one hour from being able to dial-in, must be sober, no more than 3 hours away from the office etc etc.

It isn't part of my "you are expected to work any extra hours...." i.e. when I'm not on call, I don't have to answer my phone, I don't have to be less then 3 hours away from the office etc. I'm free to do what I want.
Otherwise, they could discipline me for not answering calls when I'm on my holidays on a beach in the south of France!

If you haven't been given a company mobile, you're under no obligation to answer your own personal phone to them at the weekends or out of hours. What if you have no credit for example? Are they going to make it part of your contract that you must have credit on your personal phone at all times? Or make you sign up for billpay?!?!?!

Are they going to make you on-call 24x7x365 with no remuneration? Can't drink? Can't leave the county (nevermind the country)?

dade

Sleipnir wrote: »

Dade, I do on call support but it's a separate to my contract of employment and I get paid extra for it.
..................

Are they going to make you on-call 24x7x365 with no remuneration? Can't drink? Can't leave the county (nevermind the country)?

your understanding is exactly like mine then. the flexibility part HR refers to is not On Call, that's separate and to be honest in all other positions (10 years experience of IT) it has been the same, it has always been a separate agreement you sign and the tools are provided. this whole be available when we want you would be skating close to a breach of the work time act i would think