Lets all just Leave!

Disease Ridden

I'd say the government would love to cull all the unemployed and their children, they just dont have the guts to say it. Seriously, that would fix things.

Kippure

Disease Ridden wrote: »

I'd say the government would love to cull all the unemployed and their children, they just dont have the guts to say it. Seriously, that would fix things.

Define Unemployed and there children.

A_SN

You guys, don't surrender already. We'd never do that in France. Well, mostly because all the other French speaking countries suck. I mean, Québec, Belgium, Switzerland and half of Africa? No thanks, but that's beyond the point.

In France, when we're pissed, we go on general strike! Train workers block trains by standing on the rails as to prevent people from going to work, truckers park their 38-ton trucks on the exit of oil refineries so the whole country runs out of gasoline, they block freeways and such, and if the government doesn't quickly agree to our demands then we riot in the main cities, which consists in burning every car parked in the streets and throwing rocks and molotov cocktails on the CRS!

Do read about this general strike http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1995_strikes_in_France , it's mostly what I'm talking about, it was very memorable, I remember my parents congratulating themselves for their wisdom for having some full tanks of gasoline in the garage just in case. It's also relevant because it was about welfare cutbacks that we didn't like and such.

Disease Ridden

Kippure wrote: »

Define Unemployed and there children.

Any person without work at the present time and any children at present dependent upon them. This definition includes me so unfortunately I'll have to be killed aswel.

Kippure

Disease Ridden wrote: »

Any person without work at the present time and any children at present dependent upon them. This definition includes me so unfortunately I'll have to be killed aswel.

Dont be so hard on yourself...thank god this not 1940,s germany.

*shadow*

Wow..that budget was a surprise wasn't it..Not!!..Typical Irish Government, punish the people that never got us into this situation in the first place and bail out those that caused it..The more I think about it the more angry I get and the more I wanna just pack my bags and leave the country this instant..however I will stay to finish Uni.

The Irish really do need to stand up to the government though, It's just a joke what they are getting away with, Im not even going to say any more Im so angry. This budget is not going to do a single positive thing for the people of Ireland, now or in the future. [FONT=&quot]Thanks for nothing Fianna Fáil.
[/FONT]

A_SN

*shadow* wrote: »

Wow..that budget was a surprise wasn't it..Not!!..Typical Irish Government, punish the people that never got us into this situation in the first place and bail out those that caused it..The more I think about it the more angry I get and the more I wanna just pack my bags and leave the country this instant..however I will stay to finish Uni.

The Irish really do need to stand up to the government though, It's just a joke what they are getting away with, Im not even going to say any more Im so angry. This budget is not going to do a single positive thing for the people of Ireland, now or in the future. [FONT=&quot]Thanks for nothing Fianna Fáil.
[/FONT]

Exactly! Major unions should have strikes and demonstrations planned already, what's up with that?

ionix5891

A_SN wrote: »

Exactly! Major unions should have strikes and demonstrations planned already, what's up with that?

and which hole will the government pull money out of?

their expenses are twice the income this year

this is like a young person under 20 who is used to getting a dole of 200 euro a week finding that now they will only get half but their costs (rent, food, drink) are the same

A_SN

ionix5891 wrote: »

and which hole will the government pull money out of?

their expenses are twice the income this year

this is like a young person under 20 who is used to getting a dole of 200 euro a week finding that now they will only get half but their costs (rent, food, drink) are the same

Looks like you quoted the wrong comment there

hobochris

FFS.. I'M SICK OF PEOPLE GOING ON ABOUT WHO IS TO BLAME. The fact of the matter is no amount of pointing fingers will get us out of this mess.

Either do your part to help or GTFO!

once the country is back on its feet then you can do all the finger pointing etc that you want... that's when the reform can take place that already hasn't taken place.

ionix5891

A_SN wrote: »

Looks like you quoted the wrong comment there

speed reading my bad

anyways i don't like FF but one thing i noticed in these threads in this sub forum is complete lack of understanding of the deep hole this country is in, and the fact that all the other political parties cant come up with solutions either despite being brought in the loop with the budget makes on wonder whether this country will ever get out of this hole

A_SN

hobochris wrote: »

FFS.. I'M SICK OF PEOPLE GOING ON ABOUT WHO IS TO BLAME. The fact of the matter is no amount of pointing fingers will get us out of this mess.

Either do your part to help or GTFO!

once the country is back on its feet then you can do all the finger pointing etc that you want... that's when the reform can take place that already hasn't taken place.

Well while lynching the people we consider responsible wouldn't help, we definitely need to get them out of power. It's not just about what they've done, it's what they've done reveals about their interests and because you can infer from that that their interests are very poorly aligned with our interests, so you can't expect anything good coming out of their forthcoming decisions and actions. That's why something needs to be done right now.

Right now our part to help should involve pitchforks and torches, or their modern equivalents, witty banners and megaphones. Waiting until it's all over is pretty pointless, because we still can change what's gonna happen by reacting right now.

Did you guys know that we're having the worst deflation in Ireland since 1933?! Yeah, deflation, we haven't had since 1960, and that spells trouble. Unemployment is currently (as of March) at 11%, and increasing by about 0.7 points a month, and projected to reach 14-16% come December.

Is FF trying to solve that? No, because if they were then they'd try to give us the people more money to spend. Instead they're worried about their banker and developer buddies, while the vicious circle of deflation and unemployment feeds itself to dig us a nice hole.

hobochris

hobochris wrote: »

FFS.. I'M SICK OF PEOPLE GOING ON ABOUT WHO IS TO BLAME. The fact of the matter is no amount of pointing fingers will get us out of this mess.

Either do your part to help or GTFO!

once the country is back on its feet then you can do all the finger pointing etc that you want... that's when the reform can take place that already hasn't taken place.

you have it backwards - we need to reform things in order to get the nation back on its feet.

I see yer man Peter Bacon was a developer - this man has been put in charge of deciding the prices that us taxpayers will pay for the bad debts..........heis director of NAMA

So in your face I`ll point fingers

hobochris

Deleted User wrote: »

you have it backwards - we need to reform things in order to get the nation back on its feet.

I see yer man Bacon is a developer - this man has been put in charge of deciding the prices that us taxpayers will pay for the bad debts..........

So in your face I`ll point fingers

If you read my post again you'll see I Said "when the reform can take place that already hasn't taken place" I.e. yes some reform is needed now. But other reform can wait until the country is stable again.

what we need to do now is cut public spending, shake up the government.

Then later once the country is in a better position to do so(I'm gonna play devils advocate here), then you can have reforms going after the corrupt fat cats who need bring down a few pegs.. we all need a wake up call though as we are all (my self included) a little bit to blame for allowing this notion that the economy will keep on growing and growing to continue..

Even though you can only go after the corrupt ones as the others were just doing their capitalist duty by making profits from their chosen sectors.. after all we live in a capitalist society where making a profit is not a crime, despite what some begrudger's would instigate.

We were stupid enough to buy into this notion that the good times would never end.

so just remember when your point the finger of blame, there's 3 fingers pointing back at you.

and please if you will, enlighten me as to how all the finger pointing and moaning about who is to blame will get us out of this mess?

A_SN wrote: »

Well while lynching the people we consider responsible wouldn't help, we definitely need to get them out of power. It's not just about what they've done, it's what they've done reveals about their interests and because you can infer from that that their interests are very poorly aligned with our interests, so you can't expect anything good coming out of their forthcoming decisions and actions. That's why something needs to be done right now.

Right now our part to help should involve pitchforks and torches, or their modern equivalents, witty banners and megaphones. Waiting until it's all over is pretty pointless, because we still can change what's gonna happen by reacting right now.

Did you guys know that we're having the worst deflation in Ireland since 1933?! Yeah, deflation, we haven't had since 1960, and that spells trouble. Unemployment is currently (as of March) at 11%, and increasing by about 0.7 points a month, and projected to reach 14-16% come December.

Is FF trying to solve that? No, because if they were then they'd try to give us the people more money to spend. Instead they're worried about their banker and developer buddies, while the vicious circle of deflation and unemployment feeds itself to dig us a nice hole.

Your 100% write In what your saying.. we do need to act(not moan or blame people for the mess). not talk and play the blame game, at the moment the government aren't really steering us with any real conviction in any direction that can be seen to help this country.

McCruiskeen

why should we all have to leave? wouldnt it cost less to pack all the expensively overpaid politicians off to some 3rd world country instead?

then hire qualified people in their correct fields of expertise to run the various departments of this country

and hire others to police them with vigour to prevent corruption.

So what you're saying is that we should kick out our democratically elected government which WE the people voted for and install a dictatorship?

Exactly! Major unions should have strikes and demonstrations planned already, what's up with that?

That will solve everything and of course no other responsible government would have to do anything silly like cut services or raise taxes? They could just cut taxes and increase spending and then we can all go and live in magical fairyland with the fairy people.


But seriously. Alas, in most OECD countries you will still find that you would be paying more taxes on your wages that you are now in Ireland. The current problem now arises, because we got away with paying too little in taxes in recent years and we will now slowly move towards the average OECD tax wedge over the next few years.

Yep, the "evil and corrupt" builders and property deveopers paid tens of billions in taxes, in recent years and had us all covered. The problem was that the government increased spending in line with taxes that we realistically knew were never going to be there in a few years.

ALL POLITICAL PARTIES ENGAGED IN THIS CONSENSUS. WE, THE PEOPLE (VICTIMS??) WOULD NOT HAVE VOTED IN ANY PARTY WHO ACTED OTHERWISE.

A_SN

McCruiskeen wrote: »

But seriously. Alas, in most OECD countries you will still find that you would be paying more taxes on your wages that you are now in Ireland. The current problem now arises, because we got away with paying too little in taxes in recent years and we will now slowly move towards the average OECD tax wedge over the next few years.

Yep, the "evil and corrupt" builders and property deveopers paid tens of billions in taxes, in recent years and had us all covered.

Oh sorry, I guess we don't realise how good we're having it. Maybe we should stop complaining and be happy with our skyrocketing unemployment and our economy slowly shutting down.

Mostly that from listening to you it seems that no one could do anything better or differently than our lovely little government. Rejoice, for nothing could make our ****ty situation any better!

Alternatively we could show FF the door and give FG and Labour their chance. I mean these days even the labour party is more popular than FF.

hobochris

A_SN wrote: »

Oh sorry, I guess we don't realise how good we're having it. Maybe we should stop complaining and be happy with our skyrocketing unemployment and our economy slowly shutting down.

Mostly that from listening to you it seems that no one could do anything better or differently than our lovely little government. Rejoice, for nothing could make our ****ty situation any better!

Alternatively we could show FF the door and give FG and Labour their chance. I mean these days even the labour party is more popular than FF.

we do need change in government, but IMO fg or labour wouldn't be much of a difference, I think we need a new party.

And as for the unemployment its just one of the things that goes with a GLOBAL RECESSION. Its the economic model we choose to go with.unless we dramatically change our economic setup etc.. there's not a huge amount we or a different government can do.

our economy is deeply tied into other countries economies so we need them to also recover to get back on track.

ionix5891

A_SN wrote: »

Well while lynching the people we consider responsible wouldn't help, we definitely need to get them out of power. It's not just about what they've done, it's what they've done reveals about their interests and because you can infer from that that their interests are very poorly aligned with our interests, so you can't expect anything good coming out of their forthcoming decisions and actions. That's why something needs to be done right now.

Right now our part to help should involve pitchforks and torches, or their modern equivalents, witty banners and megaphones. Waiting until it's all over is pretty pointless, because we still can change what's gonna happen by reacting right now.

Did you guys know that we're having the worst deflation in Ireland since 1933?! Yeah, deflation, we haven't had since 1960, and that spells trouble. Unemployment is currently (as of March) at 11%, and increasing by about 0.7 points a month, and projected to reach 14-16% come December.

Is FF trying to solve that? No, because if they were then they'd try to give us the people more money to spend. Instead they're worried about their banker and developer buddies, while the vicious circle of deflation and unemployment feeds itself to dig us a nice hole.

since when is deflation a bad thing? its only bad for people with debts as they cant inflate their way out of it

all the better for people like me who saved up for a rainy day

and the main cause of the deflation is plummeting asset prices for housing which as everyone here knows is still wildly overvalued based on average prices for housing thruout history in all countries being 3-4x times ones salary

ionix5891

A_SN wrote: »

Oh sorry, I guess we don't realise how good we're having it. Maybe we should stop complaining and be happy with our skyrocketing unemployment and our economy slowly shutting down.

Mostly that from listening to you it seems that no one could do anything better or differently than our lovely little government. Rejoice, for nothing could make our ****ty situation any better!

Alternatively we could show FF the door and give FG and Labour their chance. I mean these days even the labour party is more popular than FF.

25% of GDP was due to construction

that is a crazy % and was well above the EU average

the construction bubble now popped, of course it would lead to unemployment

neither the government nor the people tried to stop this madness only a few years ago, we all are responsible for this mess by putting a blind eye on things and not pocking the government to do the right thing, too many people in Ireland where profiting wildly from the boom and taught the fun will never end in turn reelecting FF

so seriously lets put the blame squarely where it lies US THE PEOPLE

McCruiskeen

Whoops, double post

McCruiskeen

A_SN wrote: »

Oh sorry, I guess we don't realise how good we're having it. Maybe we should stop complaining and be happy with our skyrocketing unemployment and our economy slowly shutting down.

Mostly that from listening to you it seems that no one could do anything better or differently than our lovely little government. Rejoice, for nothing could make our ****ty situation any better!

Alternatively we could show FF the door and give FG and Labour their chance. I mean these days even the labour party is more popular than FF.

I have never and would never have voted for FF. The point I am trying to make was that if we had voted in FG and Labour in the last election, we would still be in this mess as they would have done the same things (for proof of this just look at their last election manifestos).

If we vote in Labour and FG now, they will do the same thing FF are doing now, which is to increase taxes and cut spending. If they did not we would 100% be bankrupt in a few years.

As much as it pains everybody, people have to grow up and accept this. There is no alternative.

so seriously lets put the blame squarely where it lies US THE PEOPLE

100% true. A democracy will always get the government it deserves.

Galmay

McCruiskeen wrote: »

But seriously. Alas, in most OECD countries you will still find that you would be paying more taxes on your wages that you are now in Ireland. The current problem now arises, because we got away with paying too little in taxes in recent years and we will now slowly move towards the average OECD tax wedge over the next few years.

It may be so that we paid a lesser percentage of our income to direct taxation, but our taxation system was wrongly dependent on consumption and indirect taxes which meant that although we had some of the lowest headline rates of tax in the developed world, it was a major contributing factor to our status as one of the highest cost of living places worldwide.

Now, thanks to magicalness of FF, we will get to move to our rightful place of having an average OECD level of direct taxation but retain our high consumption and transaction taxes.

Many people were highly educated by the state in the last 15 years and they have good incomes of 50 -80k. Theyre jobs are usually safe and absolutely necessary, they are professional, highly skilled and specialised in what they do. Their employer may have given then a 10% cut, often out of oppurtunities sake than economic need, or if in PS they were hit with pension levy, and now they were hammered in the budget, more than any other group.

Now, you may say well they can well afford it, but 70k is not a lot when you take the undoubtedly large mortagage car loan family costs and the fact that people generally live to a standard determined by their income. These people work hard and will feel punished in the budget and will know that it is they who will be punished in each subsequent FF budget from now until 2013. And they know it wont change after that.

However their skills are transferrable across borders, they have the skills that countries such as australia canada etc are looking for, even in recession. They know other countries will be out of recession before ireland and will have loads of opportunites in a couple of years with a lower cost of living. And they know they, and their family, are better off out of Ireland.

Welcome to the 80s, part 2! Brought to you by FF. And the Greens..

sardineta

€200 dole is half the problem, there's little incentive to work, instead being a drain on fragile resources.

Halving it is a good start.

McCruiskeen

Well done Galmay

Now, you may say well they can well afford it, but 70k is not a lot

You have single handily shown what is wrong with the attitude of people in this country.

It may be so that we paid a lesser percentage of our income to direct taxation, but our taxation system was wrongly dependent on consumption and indirect taxes which meant that although we had some of the lowest headline rates of tax in the developed world, it was a major contributing factor to our status as one of the highest cost of living places worldwide.

Just not true as much as you would like to believe it. Can't find the figures at the moment , but the following link (although 2006) gives an indication of the income taxes you be playing if you lived elswhere (see blue chart lower down)

http://www.finfacts.com/irelandbusinessnews/publish/article_10005354.shtml


VAT is similar in other countries also. Our service charges are modest, in comparison.

mcwhirter

Kippure wrote: »

Canada for one has opportunitys for irish people, Sure the east coast Of canada is like been in ireland.

Without the corruption hopefully

Dexterm99

Kippure wrote: »

Theres nothing wrong with staying, its a choice. But if thats that life you want, grand.

A change in goverment? for who?

Who would you vote for, An independant?

There just not interested in the People.

As you said there was nearly an empty house.

ionix5891 wrote: »

25% of GDP was due to construction

that is a crazy % and was well above the EU average

the construction bubble now popped, of course it would lead to unemployment

neither the government nor the people tried to stop this madness only a few years ago, we all are responsible for this mess by putting a blind eye on things and not pocking the government to do the right thing, too many people in Ireland where profiting wildly from the boom and taught the fun will never end in turn reelecting FF

so seriously lets put the blame squarely where it lies US THE PEOPLE

You have a point but it was effectively the decision makers in this country who brought us to ruin. If you want to blame 'The People', blame the people who voted them in and ask yourself why did they do that knowing full well what these cretins were capable of.

This just didn't happen overnight, the country has been going down the toilet for years. When Ahearn was re-elected for the second time I couldn't believe it. I'd have put money on FG getting in. I was wrong because I forgot one thing. Favouritism.

Voting for a politian because he managed to put a couple of speed bumps on your road, or managed to get you more social welfare benefits got that cretin in. You let him in because you felt obliged to give him your vote. Tell me, what did he do towards implementing improved national infrastructure projects? How was he involved in generating jobs? That's right, nothing.

Answer me this:

What did we all do when the bag tax came in?
What did we all do when the bin tax was introduced?
What did we all do when local hospitals was being closed or services were getting cut?
What did we all do when we had to pay high prices in the shops?
What did we all do about toll charges?
What did we all do about the TV license?

Yes collectively nothing. We are a nation of whingers. What did the opposition do? Collectively nothing.

Thankfully, most people have woken up over the past year about the amount of corruption and incompetence going on between banks, developers and politian's. So if you only do one thing, vote these gangsters out.

Oh and please, let's not demand a tribuneral. That's all we need. Just let the Gardai do what they are supposed to do instead.

Heineken Helen

Anyone planning on upping ship make sure you've enough money to do you a couple of months... and never EVER dip into your money for your flight home.

Canada crying out for jobs at the mo is a MYTH! I think they're doing ok compared to the rest of us but they're certainly not booming... and I have Canadian friends struggling to find work.

A_SN

sardineta wrote: »

€200 dole is half the problem, there's little incentive to work, instead being a drain on fragile resources.

Halving it is a good start.

Incentives? Who needs incentives when there's no work out there?!? Wanting a job really really bad isn't gonna make one pop up out of thin air. Reducing the dole is only going to reduce how much people spend, which will participate to slowing down the economy and make more people redundant. Yeah, that's like Economy 101, people have paid jobs because people spend money, that's where your salary comes from. Spending creates jobs, if people have no jobs and less money to spend then even more jobs will go.

hobochris : Yeah but you see, not all countries handle it the same way. Sure there are different circumstances, like we have that construction bubble that makes our lot worse, but actions matter too, and considered how FF acts, we're not out of trouble any time soon. Our leaders and their leadership it's what's going to make the difference between recovering in 2-3 years and being back on top or slipping into some deep **** and kissing your European El Dorado status a definite goodbye.

ionix : Muahaha, deflation is a good thing maybe? Let's see what Wikipedia says about it : "Currently, mainstream economists generally believe that deflation is a problem in a modern economy because of the danger of a deflationary spiral.[3] Deflation is also linked with recessions and with the Great Depression. Additionally, deflation also prevents monetary policy from stabilizing the economy because of a mechanism called the liquidity trap." Oh right, it sounds just great! I mostly like the part about deflation, lack of demand/buying and unemployment getting into a feedback loop.

And sure, you can blame that bubble thing on anyone who didn't see it coming, but who do you blame for the wrong moves being done right now? The new budget? Is it a good thing? No? Oh, who's to blame for that?

When I read comments on this thread and other similar threads I'm hardly surprised that Irish politics are dominated by populism and demagogy (or so it seems, once again I still only have a superficial understanding of how it's like in this country).

ixtlan

Dexterm99 wrote: »

Answer me this:

What did we all do when the bag tax came in?
A good policy.

What did we all do when the bin tax was introduced?
A good policy. What shouldn't people pay for what they throw away? It's insane to think it's a fundamental right to throw stuff away for free. Health is such a right and education, not rubbish disposal.

What did we all do when local hospitals was being closed or services were getting cut?
Part of our problem with the health services is the refusal of local communities to allow their mim-hospitals be rationalised into larger centres. So here people were wrongly on the streets. A valid criticism is that not enough such decisions were taken.

What did we all do when we had to pay high prices in the shops?
We demanded more tax cuts and higher wages without understanding that this was leading to a vicious inflation circle where we were ultimately worse off and getting less competitive.

What did we all do about toll charges?
We allowed the government to enter public/private partnerships so that they could cut taxes and not have to put our money into transport infrastructure.

What did we all do about the TV license?
See above... demanded more tax cuts etc etc.

Dexterm99 wrote: »

Thankfully, most people have woken up over the past year about the amount of corruption and incompetence going on between banks, developers and politian's. So if you only do one thing, vote these gangsters out.

People are right to be angry. Unfortunately they are angry about the wrong thing. Service cuts and tax raises have to happen now, people may hate those but they have to happen.

The anger should be due to the fact that FF was so weak that they gave the public what they wanted without showing real leadership, and explaining that sometimes high growth, lower taxes and higher wages are a bad thing.

I'll add that an election may be a good thing... but not to change policy now. That's too late. It's only purpose would be punish those who allowed this situation to develop. However since people don't understand why it developed I worry...

NewDubliner

A_SN wrote: »

Alternatively we could show FF the door and give FG and Labour their chance. I mean these days even the labour party is more popular than FF.

Ever hear of a 'reverse takeover'? The government has not taken over the banks, they've taken over the government. We hear more policy coming from the bank-owned stockbrokers than we do from politicians.