Time for a General Election?

sub-x

Yes, because we can't be expected to trust the very morons that got us into this mess to get us out of it again.

No,because we are just going to swap one bunch of morons for another.

Hey we are damned if we do and we're damned if we don't.

smemon

Yes.

This old nonsense of 'what alternative is there?' is rubbish. If we had that attitude Fianna Fáil would remain in power for eternity.

Get them out, get anyone else in. CHANGE.

Change is what we need - doesn't matter whether it's bad or good. Change makes people work harder and fight for their jobs.

If you get sacked, you're gonna fight for a job. If the guy next to you gets sacked, you up your work rate.

We're seeing this throughout the economy - it's being cleansed of evil and bad practices yet the government is not.

The government have been in power for too long and they're too comfortable. Sacking 20 ministers and then re-hiring 15 is typical of this government - they're not practicing what they're preaching.

Raising VAT by 0.5% was a mistake - Lenihan ADMITTED that. Yet he didn't reduce it or address it in the latest budget. 'Too much hassle' was, in a nutshell, his excuse.

tippspur

Yes,kick em out

laurence997

No. Public morale is already low enough without adding the hassle and confusion of changing government. Anyway, I, don't fancy being led by Enda Kenny-Zzz Zzz

marti8

Nothingbetter2d wrote: »

Time for a General Election?

Please just keep answers to just YES or NO

YES

OPENROAD

I would like to see a change. In a way I wish we did not have a PR voting system. If we have an election will a FG/Labour actually work, in terms of policies from what I understand they are far apart and posssibly they would not last a year.

hellboy99

Yes

Jessiemac

Nothingbetter2d wrote: »

Time for a General Election?

Please just keep answers to just YES or NO

Yes. Absolutely. Get them out fast. They're only concerned with the welfare of their privileged cronies.

Solitaire

YES, the reason to keep them in has always been Enda's weakness, and now FF are just as weak and feeble. The other change is that they used to be utterly corrupt and reasonably effective. Now they're only corrupt, and will not hesitate to ruin the people of this nation to avoid losing face.

Morale and efficacy are already at rock bottom, and we know that no matter what happens the current regime will choose the stupidest, most short-sighted and ridiculously elitist course. How much worse could it get with a different coalition?

endplate

Yes vote them numpties out asap. I expected them to chicken out and try and tax us out of the recession. Very bad move a major bunch of cowards. They have had 12 years of throwing money at problems and buying votes. Now they are found out that they can't handle real problems they simply have to go and hope the alternative will have the balls to handle the problem properly and improve morale in the country

They will only do more harm the longer they are in control

lmimmfn

instead of throwing endless amounts of our cash into the infinite money pit that is our banking sector they should be using that money to build infrastructure when its actually cheap, create jobs, build our country up again in preparation for future good times.

Why werent the banks sold or amalgamated? why is this 'our' problem?
How can i set up a bank?, buy loads of stuff and then put it all down to bad debt and pocket myself millions? or just con them into giving me lots of cash for property and say i can no longer pay

caffrey

Yes. whilst I agree that we SHOULD wait until the economic craziness is over, parties letting bygones etc and then call it, but what will happen then is FF will get the praise for getting us through this tough time etc etc.

I call for a look at the voting/party system our country employs... but what are the alternatives?

xz

Yes. This Government could have averted this years ago when Charlie McGreevy was Minister for Finance, but he was shafted out to Brussels and the Government continued to "BUY" us at Budget time.
Now, the ugly side of the "Dictator Cowen" is rearing it's ugly head (no pun intended) with a "Do as I say" attitude. At the moment we are living in a Democratically elected Dictatorship, but I can't see this one revitalising our economy like Hitler did for Germany in the 30's.....and we ALL know what happened in the 40's.
All this talk of buying foreign properties..................;)

tretle

laurence997 wrote: »

No. Public morale is already low enough without adding the hassle and confusion of changing government. Anyway, I, don't fancy being led by Enda Kenny-Zzz Zzz

Not once have I voted for Fianna Fail, they have done nothing but send our country down a spiraling ****hole. The fact that they have repetitively been voted in by people regardless of this has made me ashamed of this place.
People seem to vote for the entertaining ones rather than the ones capable of doing their jobs and the ones that actually care about the people.
You my friend are a moron, not voting for someone because you find them boring... Are you serious.
What I am most ashamed of was this countries treatment of Americans. Don't get me wrong, I was just as against the bush administration as the next but I didn't label all Americans as idiots as the majority of irish did. They based their acusations on the fact bush was voted in but take a look at our own country, how bertie was voted in, purely for entertainment value.
Hypocrites.
How the hell would fianna fail handle this country if we were prone to natural disasters etc. They are ****ing up the worst they possibly can **** up with our geographical location + military power....... I think even bush would do a better job in this country.

If these f+ckers manage to stay in power much longer I will be leaving this country with a finger pointed at its shores.

is_that_so

For now I'll say no although when it comes there will be change of government. The Cowen manoeuvre has ensured they'll all stay onside until after the June elections anyway. Sure it might make people feel better and Labour are exploiting the notion but I just don't believe that the chaos and power vacuum that comes out of an election is really of any use to anyone at present.

We'd have the dissolution of the Dail, a minimum of a three week campaign, negotiations on formation of new government and then a few weeks of holidays. All told we could be looking at up to three months of no government.

Much as I dislike what we have and believe it must be changed, now is not the time. With international markets trying to decide if we're moving any way in the right direction, a 2-3 month interregnum would not go down well.

Dark_lord_ire

No

The government are elected to make hard calls like they did if we had a general election everytime a government had to deliver a budget in recession we would be doing it every year.

Anyway who on gods earth would want the job right now. Best to have election as things are turning for the better which being honest could be when the elected lifetime of this government ends anyway.

zootroid

tretle wrote: »

Not once have I voted for Fianna Fail, they have done nothing but send our country down a spiraling ****hole. The fact that they have repetitively been voted in by people regardless of this has made me ashamed of this place.
People seem to vote for the entertaining ones rather than the ones capable of doing their jobs and the ones that actually care about the people.

If these f+ckers manage to stay in power much longer I will be leaving this country with a finger pointed at its shores.

+1


YES. I have absolutely no confidence in the current government, based on their previous record. They made idiotic policy decisions over the last few years, going against the advice of independent economic commentators. They couldn't even see the recession coming last summer despite the steady increase in unemployment. They seem to only want to feather their own nests. Eg, how in Gods name can a sitting TD claim a pension?!?! I know that is now ended, but should never have been allowed in the first place. Enormous salaries for ministers in comparison to other countries, TDs claiming twice the average industrial wage in expenses, appointing friends to the boards of state bodies etc etc. All these things are just infuriating.

Lastly, they continue to blame anyone and anything for the mess the country is in, without accepting any blame themselves.

I also think that FF being decimated would show them how angry the people are with their performance over the last few years, and how they brought this country to its knees.

On the plus side, I think Richard Bruton would make a good finance minister. I think Enda Kenny (while not the most charismatic of people, but is Cowen??) is honest, something which is lacking in FF. I think there are enough talented individuals in the opposition to see us through this mess. Cowen and Lenihan get the blame, but FF have plenty of other idiots. Coughlan, Cullen anyone?

zootroid

By the way, this thread could really have done with a poll!

deepriver

Het-Field wrote: »

What do you base your arguments regarding McDowell on ? Incidentally, McDowell is a barrister. Again, I feel you are one of those people who disliked him becasue it was fashionable to dislike him.

The reality was he was the first Reforming Minster for Justice this country has had in years.

The Criminal Justice Acts of 2006 and 2007 are testament to that.

He is one of the only world leaders who has taken action on immigration, ensuring that the judge made law of Lobe v Osyande was not the conerstone of our immigration policy (he abided by the constitution, and put it to the people in June 2004).

He properly tried to reform alcohol legislation. His attempts to put it in supermarkets (to increase competition), and his 24 Hour cafe bars idea (to bring Ireland towards a sustainable, sensible and European Liberal Policy) were some of the most innovative ideas towards alcohol regulation. Lenihan just sought to curtail opening hours, hike prices, and punish people for drinking outside of their homes (this has only served to force people to drink in their homes, while earlier closing times means more violence, more wanton destruction of public property, and more discomfort for all those who engage in nocturnal activities.

McDowell was a firm believer, proponent, and purchaser of the land for the building of Thornton Hall "Super Prison". Mountjoy is inadequate (no constitution changes vis sentencing could occur until the capacity is radically increased. Until then the country has no alternative but to operate a revolving door prison system), inhumane (no proper in cell sanitation facilities), and Dickensian to the core. The new prison would have catered for the distribution of mandatory sentence, and given a certain level of dignety to those imprisoned there.

Finally he exposed Gerry Adams as a complete spoofer. Adams has no political ideology beyond his nationalism, and McDowell exposed that in 2007. His last act was to jettison any development of Sinn Fein between 2007-2012

McDowell was beyond poor as a leader of the Progressive Democrats. He rubbed people up the wrong way, and his gung hoe arrogance led him to be widely disliked by the. His expulsion from the Dail was a stupid decision on the part of the people of Dublin South East. They deprived the country of a thinker and a reformer, who will shoot from the hip.

very succinctly put... McDowell was a politician who cared more about reform than the next election... and where did that get him in our political system... Fired... I was a big fan of Mc Dowell purely for his integrity and willingness to take on work and make changes... but the Irish voting public didnt see it that way, he didnt wear a Man U shirt at the weekends and slug Bass which doomed his career

I pretty much lost all faith in our system at that point... can only be saved by Labour / Greens or a re-emergence of the PDs

Fianna Dail & Gail are more or less the same beast...

YES to an election, but I fear this Irish public would vote back in Fianna Fail, given enough time to heal the issues say 1 year

Sure look at Bertie.. the man that must take the most responsibility for ruining the country is hoovering around looking for the PM role... and the scary thing is he will probably get it

the problem in this country is not with the elected politicians, but the people who elect them & reject people like McDowell

faceman

Het-Field wrote: »

What do you base your arguments regarding McDowell on ? Incidentally, McDowell is a barrister. Again, I feel you are one of those people who disliked him becasue it was fashionable to dislike him.

The reality was he was the first Reforming Minster for Justice this country has had in years.

The Criminal Justice Acts of 2006 and 2007 are testament to that.

He is one of the only world leaders who has taken action on immigration, ensuring that the judge made law of Lobe v Osyande was not the conerstone of our immigration policy (he abided by the constitution, and put it to the people in June 2004).

He sped up the deportation of failed asylum seekers. One of which was leaving cert student Kunle Eluhanla, who was deported back to Nigeria. After outcry for schoolmates, McDowell reversed his decision which undermined the integrity of his stance on immigration. Other deportees were not given a similar voice.

wrote:

He properly tried to reform alcohol legislation. His attempts to put it in supermarkets (to increase competition), and his 24 Hour cafe bars idea (to bring Ireland towards a sustainable, sensible and European Liberal Policy) were some of the most innovative ideas towards alcohol regulation.

He did an overnight U-Turn on the 24 hour cafe bar idea. (which i admit, i liked his idea) He didnt have the integrity to stand up to whatever or whoever made him change his mind.

wrote:

McDowell was a firm believer, proponent, and purchaser of the land for the building of Thornton Hall "Super Prison". Mountjoy is inadequate (no constitution changes vis sentencing could occur until the capacity is radically increased. Until then the country has no alternative but to operate a revolving door prison system), inhumane (no proper in cell sanitation facilities), and Dickensian to the core. The new prison would have catered for the distribution of mandatory sentence, and given a certain level of dignety to those imprisoned there.

The price we paid for that land was well above the going rate for land in that area. It was never address why unused state owned land Dublin wasnt utilised instead.

wrote:

Finally he exposed Gerry Adams as a complete spoofer. Adams has no political ideology beyond his nationalism, and McDowell exposed that in 2007. His last act was to jettison any development of Sinn Fein between 2007-2012

Yeah he used to accuse them of being members of the PIRA.

wrote:

McDowell was beyond poor as a leader of the Progressive Democrats. He rubbed people up the wrong way, and his gung hoe arrogance led him to be widely disliked by the. His expulsion from the Dail was a stupid decision on the part of the people of Dublin South East. They deprived the country of a thinker and a reformer, who will shoot from the hip.

His inability to review the laws on statutory rape correctly was farcical. He ended up having to apologise to the Dail as a result.

I have no issue with him rubbing people up the wrong way. But have integrity in what you do and say.

bcirl03

Yes, Brian Clown and his Muppet Show need to go.

They haven’t a clue.

deepriver

faceman wrote: »

He sped up the deportation of failed asylum seekers. One of which was leaving cert student Kunle Eluhanla, who was deported back to Nigeria. After outcry for schoolmates, McDowell reversed his decision which undermined the integrity of his stance on immigration. Other deportees were not given a similar voice.



He did an overnight U-Turn on the 24 hour cafe bar idea. (which i admit, i liked his idea) He didnt have the integrity to stand up to whatever or whoever made him change his mind.



The price we paid for that land was well above the going rate for land in that area. It was never address why unused state owned land Dublin wasnt utilised instead.



Yeah he used to accuse them of being members of the PIRA.



His inability to review the laws on statutory rape correctly was farcical. He ended up having to apologise to the Dail as a result.

I have no issue with him rubbing people up the wrong way. But have integrity in what you do and say.

you've just highlighted McDowells strong point, he had enough honesty to reverse a decision... I dont see the current government accepting responsibility for bringing the country to near bankruptcy or admitting the VAT decision was a mistake even though it is sending money across the border

admitting a mistake or reversing a decision is the sign of a politician who doesnt value his own opinion over that of his electorate

SeaFields

No.
Firstly i think that now is not the time for us to be without a government. In the interim period between dissolution of the Dáil and the subsequent general election decisions may need to be made for the good of the country rather that with one or both eyes on an upcoming election.

If we want to show our disapproval of FF and the greens do so at the June local and European elections (and i think there is a couple of by-elections then two - replacing Tony Gregory and Seamus Brennen?) by ensuring they do not retain or win any seats.

I believe any party in government, whether by majority or in a coalition, would have had to deliver the sort of budget we got. The money is needed by the country and those measures are required to get us back on track. I have confidence we can be brought back on track through the right decisions.

Finally, when i general election does come about - perhaps after a full term or perhaps sooner - I hope the Irish people finally and firmly stand up for themselves, show that the policies of FF will no longer be tolerated and decimate the FF party.

faceman

deepriver wrote: »

you've just highlighted McDowells strong point, he had enough honesty to reverse a decision... I dont see the current government accepting responsibility for bringing the country to near bankruptcy or admitting the VAT decision was a mistake even though it is sending money across the border

admitting a mistake or reversing a decision is the sign of a politician who doesnt value his own opinion over that of his electorate

While i would agree in principal, you do have to ask how many mistakes should someone in his position be allowed to make? How many apologies or retractions should one make before you question their ability?

Lenihan recently admitted that they got the VAT increase decision wrong in the last budget. Should we forgive them for that?

DrumSteve

faceman wrote: »

While i would agree in principal, you do have to ask how many mistakes should someone in his position be allowed to make? How many apologies or retractions should one make before you question their ability?

Lenihan recently admitted that they got the VAT increase decision wrong in the last budget. Should we forgive them for that?

no because he never reversed his decision.

and yes i believe that we need an election. very few people have confidence in this crowd to weather the current economic storm.

johnnyskeleton

eoinbn wrote: »

No. We need FF to be the ones to make the call to the IMF. If FG/Labour make it then we will be back here in 25 years with the next generation of FF clowns destroying the country.

Fair point, although the IMF have said that they don't want to know about us, so it will probably be the EU if it happens.

But realistically, a general election wouldn't be so bad. The damage has already been done for the most part, but at least with FG/Labour there is a chance that those who engaged in corrupt or dishonest practices will be prosecuted, and at this stage, we really have to see this happening. Otherwise, we are not a fully democratic modern nation.

A_SN

My understanding of Irish politics is very basic, but why would anyone want to keep FF? It seems that FF has handled the whole crisis pretty badly, and correct me if I'm wrong but it seems things were turning sour for Ireland before it really did for the whole world. The approval rate of the government and of Cowen are awful, Wikipedia says that Cowen has been ranked as the second worst leader of European Union.

And now it seems obvious that they chose to sacrifice the "little people" (understand, the overwhelming majority of the population) rather than try to make things as smooth as possible for people. This and the fact that they don't want to see to knock so hard on bankers, or suck the financial fat out of the billionaires. They'd obviously rather see you try to live on 500e/month.

So I don't understand by what logic can you conclude that these guys whose last move was a move in the wrong direction can also be the guys who will save us. Furthermore, I fail to see how FG or Labour could do a worse job than FF is currently doing.

EDIT : Nevermind, missed the point about not having a government for months and the forthcoming elections in a couple of months.

Belfast

NO.

The opposition is just as clueless as the government and did not see the problem coming. Even when people like David Mcwilliams warned that in
House prices: up or down?
February 3rd, 2002 ,
http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2002/02/03/house-prices-up-or-down

back in 1998 he warned about the problem.
This is when the problem started not last year went unemployment went up and the tax revenue coming in to the state fell below expectations.
http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/1998/11/03/bhead.htm
"Economist warns of move
from Celtic Tiger to Ostrich
by Brian O'Mahony
IRELAND risks moving from Celtic Tiger economic status to Celtic Ostrich over the next two years a top economist has warned.
David McWilliams, senior economist and strategist with Banque Nationale de Paris, in London, said the circumstances that drove the economy forward these past few years are evaporating before our very eyes. Boom conditions here were driven by the seven years of economic growth in the US and on the back of the Asian Tiger economies, he said.
In a series of warnings Mr McWilliams told a conference in Ennis that "we were defying economic gravity," driven by huge credit growth of over 20% per annum, while the economy was growing at just 8%.
Mr McWilliams warned that if we ignore the danger signals from the UK, the US, the Asian economies and more recently Russia, we were in serious danger of hitting rock bottom over the next two years.
But Pat O'Neill, of AIB Capital Markets, disagreed fundamentally with the view of Mr McWilliams.
He dismissed it as a "typical" UK view of the Irish economy.
Even though Mr McWiliams is Irish and is one of those credited with inventing the Celtic Tiger legend, his pessimistic view is not shared by Irish economists generally.
Noteworthy is Dermot O'Brien of NCB Stockbrokers, who has forecast annual growth of 5% per annum over the next five years at least.
Demographics says Mr O'Brien, are driving the phenomenal economic growth here. The babyboomers of the early 1970s and becoming the plastic card consumers of the 1990s and that phenomenon cannot be ignored.
So while we stand to lose export orders and suffer some job losses, Mr O'Brien says the economy is destined to roll along over the next few years.
Mr McWilliams made his comments at a conference entitled "Are We Forgetting Something" held in Ennis, Co Clare. He warned that "some sort of crisis was round the corner" unless the world economy came back into play to stimulate demand.
Since the middle ages, booms have always been followed by busts and Mr McWilliams said the only debate now is how severe the bust that is going to follow would be.
Mr McWilliams has been accused by some of "headline grabbing." "

The opposition ignored his warning just as much as the government did.

Fine Gael seems to be turning out policy biased on marketing surveys as to how to solve the problem.

Fianna fail has been in power to long, but replacing them with another set of clueless Muppets for the opposition who want to spend even more (€11,000,000,000 stimulus packge Fine Geal). is not going to help.

Perhaps it is time to sack all of the correct crop of politicians in Leicester house and start with new one with some new ideas.

The last time the political classes were wiped out in Ireland was the election of 1918 when the home rule party were almost wiped out.

This has already been called for with the bankers.

Perhaps it is time for such a Seachange again.

A general election with a choice between Tweedle Dumb and Tweedle Dumber (Fianna fail , Fianna Gael and Labour) is not going to solve the problem.

To paraphrase Micheal O'Leary. "The political classess have become fat dumb and happy during the Celtic tiger years"

No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it.
Albert Einstein


One last major problem with an General election now is the elector register is out of date and needs to be brought up to date before any new election.

The one sensiable thing I heard in the Dail in recent years was form labour who suggested when the last census was being collect the same people should do a survey to bring the elector register up to date.

Both Fine Geal and Finna Fail said it was a bad idea.

Perhaps it suited the 2 majors parties not to have the elector register updated.(Things might have changed)

deepriver

Some good points there Belfast, good economists called it early... to them a property bubble was obvious, however the bubble landing was more severe as it was coupled with a major economic depression in the US, that was unseen by everyone... even the economists who called the bubble early. So the government are slightly exonerated. But you have to ask yourself in ten years of boom what do we have to show for it?

- 90 billion of bad debts on property portfolios

- no significant infrastructure developments (M50 only recently completed, LUAS extensions still in the pipeline, Western Corridor??)

- miles and miles of empty office blocks and apartments

- No savings (apart from the Pension Fund which is now decimated)

- No tax reform (we still use the levy system which was introduced as a temporary measure 20 years ago)

- A third world health care system with first world prices (GP / consultant fees???)

- Poor public transport infrastructure (it costs more to get a train to Westport than a plane to the South of France)

- A damaged international reputation both in international money lending markets and with the EU (Nice Treaty anyone?)

What mistakes did Fianna Fail make to contribute to the harsh downfall of the economy?

- Failed to introduce any significant level effective of regulatory practice that stopped banks from engaging in high risk loan portfolios + to date people like Anglo Irish ex-CEO has gone unpunished (if wrong doing is proved in the US regulatory environment this guy would do significant time in jail)

- paid the governor of the central bank millions in wages and then ignored his warnings that we were in a property bubble = ignored prominent economist such as McWilliams

- took some of the highest wages in the world for politicians (Cowen gets paid more than Obama) and introduced working groups and increased the number of backbenchers, costs all born by the tax payer

- created cosy relationships with property developers and created a governance environment that allowed them to push through shady property deals and rezoning requests

- and lets not forget the likes of Bertie and Lawlor who undoubtedly where corrupt and took bribe after bribe

In a nutshell the government of Ireland or Ireland Corp presided over the biggest turnaround in circumstances in the history of the state, from one of the richest countries to THE hardest hit economy in the Euro zone all within ten years. We literally one the lottery and blew it all. A lot of the blame can be laid at the feet of the people of this country who should have been more prudent. But whats that old saying about a Nanny state, dont we indeed hire politicians to look after our best interests... this is where the government have fallen down.

To add to this they havent made anyone culpable for the problems we now face today. Bankers have got away free so far, the government have not admitted any responsibility for the situation and NAMA may or may not go after all those stinking rich property developers who still drive around in Land Rovers, to be seen...

So the US situation has certainly made matters worse today and the recent budget nailed middle class people, (who unfortunately they are the ones that have always propped up this economy and dutifully and honestly go about a life or work and taxes), but I would argue they are managing it quite well, making hard decisions (Cowen and Minister of Finance or competent smart guys), but with the following criticisms...


- In this economy total welfare payments are 21billion per annum, health care costs 20billion, total tax receipts for this years will be 31 billion, straight away we have a problem, we are overspending - cut welfare from 200 per week to half that and force life longer's off the dole queue and into training or labour schemes

- low earners now brought into the tax net while super rich / horse breeders / non residents tax exiles get away free

- no effort to stimulate, its purely a puinitive budget

What needs to be done...?

- Fianna Fail need to be thrown out of goverment because they are a corrupt and inept government

- we need a seachange approach to governance in this country, becoming more prudent and conservative , bringing in a Green / Labour coalition will help to trim a bloated governance system

- we need to invest in major infrastruture projects over the next 10 years as per the Fianna Gail plan with the aim of putting all those construction workers back in employment, stimulate the economy and build a lasting legacy

- we need the Green party to spear head the green energy industry sector as a source of sustainable industry to this country, with a target of becoming the world leader in the field over 20 years

- the people of Ireland need to remember how this government ruined us, vote them out and keep them out until such time as they are fit to ever govern again

- we need efficient reform of the health care system so it becomes more economical and effective and doesnt cost 20 billion per annum a year

its a sorry state of affairs we are in today, but the worst thing we can do, is let the current government dance around and shock us with budgets until we forget what complete p*icks they are and then hey presto after a year or two all is forgotten, the economy is showing signs of recovery, they reduce alcohol tax, its party time, they are still in power and tyrant-in-chief, Bertie Ahern is the President

rasper

Yes

We so need these clowns out, I for one shudder to think how bad the bank bailout can go and do not want FF anyway near it. Not a fan of FG and their populist rantings but would take Bruton in a flash over our two Brians.