Non-citizens getting the dole? Time to stop it?

marti8

No, I'm not xenophobic or racist. I am just wondering how much it costs the State in dole payments to cover EU nationals in Ireland who have worked but are now unemployed and entitled under the current regime to social welfare payments?

Yes, they paid their taxes, fair enough. Personally I think it would be a good idea to allow those non-nationals to get social welfare until they have in effect recouped the ammount they have paid in taxes but then say no more.

A few months before all the eastern European countries joined the EU I was in an eastern European capital on holiday and while there (I don't want to say which one) I met the Irish ambassador and we had an informal chat during which the issue of eastern Europeans flooding into Ireland was raised and both myself and the ambassador couldn't believe that the government were going to allow it!

I know we needed, at that time, workers for the Irish economy but what we could have done was introduce a "green card" scheme, simple as that. It would have been the easiest thing to do but no. Non-nationals are costing, yes costing not contributing, the Irish economy hundreds of millions of euro on social welfare payments each year. Plus we have added strain on our public services. Now, today, in these economic times we have to say enough is enough. If there aren't enough jobs for Irish people then non-nationals need to return to their own countries. And I would say the exact same thing, although I wouldn't like it, if the roles were reversed.

Each country, each State needs to look after its own citizens first. Simple as that. Now, I have to add that I am in reciept of a social welfare payment, am I a burden on the State, yes of course I am but I as an Irish citizen have the right to expect the State to support me if I cannot work or if I cannot find work. And I hasten to add my spouse is a non-national, you might say "kick her out too!" if you try to reverse it and use my own logic but not so, as an Irish citizen I am entitled to marry whom ever I see fit, Irish or not, and have the right to be financially supported. That is the basis of the welfare state. Our welfare system was designed for Irish people and their dependants not half of Europe! (I know it's an exageration)

Ireland is a soft touch and has been for ages, it CANNOT continue given our current problems, we're running out of money fast while still paying non-national the same social welfare entitlements as Irish nationals! I know many folks might disagree with me and say I am focusing on a vulnerable group but they miss the point, in Ireland we have X ammount of money for social welfare, we can barely help our own citizens nevermind everyone else's! But I think many folks will, hopefully, also agree with me.

Mena

marti8 wrote: »

I am just wondering how much it costs the State in dole payments to cover EU nationals in Ireland who have worked but are now unemployed and entitled under the current regime to social welfare payments?

Then

marti8 wrote: »

Non-nationals are costing, yes costing not contributing, the Irish economy hundreds of millions of euro on social welfare payments each year.

Make up your mind please? Also, do you have references for that claim? I'm not saying it's wrong at all, but I would like to see the actual data.

marti8 wrote: »

Yes, they paid their taxes, fair enough. Personally I think it would be a good idea to allow those non-nationals to get social welfare until they have in effect recouped the ammount they have paid in taxes but the say no more.

I'd agree with this (as a non-national)

In fact, scrap it altogether, for every one. The whole idea of a welfare state still amuses me. Use the money to create jobs.

greendom

Nonsense, as long as they abide by the rules and live in Ireland they are as entitled to the benefit payments as any Irish person - just as any Irish person living in another EU country is entitled to the benefits that apply in that country. It's part of what makes the EU such a great institution.

Your post is wrong on so many levels but I'll leave it at that for now.

jhegarty

I think anyone who has paid tax should get every help from the government.


I have a far bigger issue with the Irish long term unemployed then a Polish person who fell on hard times are a few years of paying tax.

Traumadoc

We pay PRSI so why should we be excluded, many Irish recieved the dole in the UK in the past.

aare

I take your point...but I am not sure how that is going to show a profit when the UK and other European countries start sending the Irish Citizens back???

Also, as the domicile laws have changed throughout europe this would leave many people (and their families) stranded with no home, no job and no access to welfare benefits ANYWHERE...sometimes after having lived here for decades...

jhegarty

aare wrote: »

I take your point...but I am not sure how that is going to show a profit when the UK and other European countries start sending the Irish Citizens back???

Also, as the domicile laws have changed throughout europe this would leave many people (and their families) stranded with no home, no job and no access to welfare benefits ANYWHERE...sometimes after having lived here for decades...

They can't send the Irish home. Not without leaving the EU.

marti8

aare wrote: »

I take your point...but I am not sure how that is going to show a profit when the UK and other European countries start sending the Irish Citizens back???

Also, as the domicile laws have changed throughout europe this would leave many people (and their families) stranded with no home, no job and no access to welfare benefits ANYWHERE...sometimes after having lived here for decades...

I am specifically talking about eastern European countries, not so -called "old Europe", why just eastern Europe? Because that is where the majority of non-nationals living in Ireland today are from. Why not the UK? Because Irish people in the UK can get the dole yet how many Irish people in Poland, Slovakia or anywhere else get their "version" of the dole, none I'd say. Yes, it is a selfish point of view in a way and I wish I didn't have to express it as I have nothing against east European people but these are extraordinary times we are living in, we are on the verge of a deprssion, forget recession (recession is a walk in the park compared to this and potentially what has yet to come)

CiaranC

marti8 wrote: »

how many Irish people in Poland, Slovakia or anywhere else get their "version" of the dole, none I'd say.

You'd say?

Maybe you should check.

Helix

if youve worked and contributed to the state via taxes you should be perfectly entitled to the dole, regardless of your nationality

if you havent, you shouldnt get a sniff, regardless of your nationality

marti8

CiaranC wrote: »

You'd say?

Maybe you should check.

Ok Ciaran, how many, you seem to know?

menoscemo

marti8 wrote: »

Each country, each State needs to look after its own citizens first. Simple as that.

These 'Eastern Europeans' have to work 2 years in Ireland before being entitled to social welfare payments. That is a lot more than a lot Irish Citizens claiming the dole. Therefore they are more entitled to it than many Irish citzens. Nationality should have nothing to do with it.

marti8 wrote: »

Now, today, in these economic times we have to say enough is enough. If there aren't enough jobs for Irish people then non-nationals need to return to their own countries. And I would say the exact same thing, although I wouldn't like it, if the roles were reversed.

Enough Jobs for Irsh People? There are plenty of minimum wage paying jobs taken up mostly by Non-nationals simply because the dole pays just as much as a 40hour p/w minimum wage job (more after rent and other allowances). So who is going to do these jobs when we send the non nationals home?

marti8

menoscemo wrote: »

These 'Eastern Europeans' have to work 2 years in Ireland before being entitled to social welfare payments. That is a lot more than a lot Irish Citizens claiming the dole. Therefore they are more entitled to it than many Irish citzens. Nationality should have nothing to do with it.



Enough Jobs for Irsh People? There are plenty of minimum wage paying jobs taken up mostly by Non-nationals simply because the dole pays just as much as a 40hour p/w minimum wage job (more after rent and other allowances). So who is going to do these jobs when we send the non nationals home?

If there are jobs which can't be filled by Irish people, fine. I have no problem with that. I do have an issue with eastern Europeans having the right to be on the dole just as long as an Irish national. Each country has its first responsibility to its own citizens and their dependants.

You say there are plenty of low paying jobs, really? Maybe a year ago, not today. Times have changed, today you have bankers, accountants, architects etc applying for jobs in McDonalds. If there are any jobs available for them, why...because there are so many east Europeans working there already............

ejmaztec

marti8 wrote: »

If there are jobs which can't be filled by Irish people, fine. I have no problem with that. I do have an issue with eastern Europeans having the right to be on the dole just as long as an Irish national. Each country has it's first responsibility to it's own citizens.

You say there are plenty of low paying jobs, really? Maybe a year ago, not today.

Every EU citizen is entitled to claim unemployment benefit from whichever EU state they happen to be in when they become become unemployed.

marti8

ejmaztec wrote: »

Every EU citizen is entitled to claim unemployment benefit from whichever EU state they happen to be in when they become become unemployed.

And that is the problem. The governmenet could have introduced a green card system for east Europeans but they didn't. Yet, when Bulgaria and Romania joined their citizens weren't allowed to work freely in other EU States........

It is an unequal system, a system which works against Ireland and costs us a lot of money. If an Irish person working in eastern Europe became unemployed they would most likey return to Ireland, if an eastern European (who has worked for more than 2 years in Ireland) becomes unemployed why would they return to their own country? They get much more money here, indefinetly.

Helix

ejmaztec wrote: »

Every EU citizen is entitled to claim unemployment benefit from whichever EU state they happen to be in when they become become unemployed.

which is grossly unfair unless a single europe wide unemployment benefit rate is introduced, otherwise theyll just keep flocking to silly old ireland where they give you far more than any of the other countries

menoscemo

marti8 wrote: »

If there are jobs which can't be filled by Irish people, fine. I have no problem with that. I do have an issue with eastern Europeans having the right to be on the dole just as long as an Irish national. Each country has its first responsibility to its own citizens and their dependants.

You say there are plenty of low paying jobs, really? Maybe a year ago, not today.

Jobs that can't be filled by Irish people? What do you mean? Ones that pay too low to get an Irish person like yourself off the dole to fill them? So you are happy to let non-nationals do these jobs but not, happy to gove them a penny if they lose their job after working years in this country...

You said in your initial post that you were not racist or xenophobic but..... this is always the queue for somone to prove the oposite and you have just done it.

Go to your local pub, shop, supermarket or fast food resturaunt and ask for a job, I am sure it would not be too difficult to find one. After all the manager of such an estblishment would be delighted to employ an Irish person to do such jobs, given the amount of customers compaining about being served by foreigners. You Probably wouldn't lower yourself to do such a job however as for 40 hours work you would get paid little more than you currently claim on welfare. And there-in lies the problem (not the foreigners doing the low paid jobs).

nesf

They worked here for 2 years paying PRSI. I really don't see any good reason for refusing them the dole after they've done that.

It's not like they can just hop on a plane over here and sign on the dole straight after leaving the airport or anything.

Allah Hu Akbar

How does it work for people outside the EU? Example Africa! There's loads down where I am none of them work yet they drive big fancy family cars so they can fit their 10 kids in. They even get their hair cut and keep the receipts and get the money back :eek:

menoscemo

ejmaztec wrote: »

Every EU citizen is entitled to claim unemployment benefit from whichever EU state they happen to be in when they become become unemployed.

This is untrue, since the accession states being accepted into the EU, All (No Irish and UK) EU citizens have to be working a minimum of 2 years in Ireland before being entitled to claim unemployment benefit.
In most other EU countries, citizens (both from that country and other EU states) must work a minimum amount of time and build up enough 'stamps' to claim unemployment benefit.
Ireland, in fact, discriminates between different EU citizens by giving it's own citizens benefits without question while making others work 2 years before being entitled to them.

marti8

menoscemo wrote: »

Jobs that can't be filled by Iriah people? What do you mean? Ones that pay too low to get an Irish person like yourself off the dole to fill them? So you are happy to let non-nationals do these jobs but not, happy to gove them a penny if they lose their job after working years in this country...

You said in your initial post that you were not racist or xenophobic but..... this is always the queue for somone to prove the oposite and you have just done it.

Go to your local pub, shop, supermarket or fast food resturaunt and ask for a job, I am sure it would not be too difficult to find one. After all the manager of such an estblishment would be delighted to employ an Irish person to do such jobs, given the amount of customers compaining about being served by foreigners. You Probably wouldn't lower yourself to do such a job however as for 40 hours work you would get paid little more than you currently claim on welfare. And there-in lies the problem )not the foreigners doing the low paid jobs).

Wrong. These days there are not enough jobs even for Irish people. See: http://www.jobsblog.ie/Jobs/bankers-applying-for-jobs-in-mcdonalds/242

And no, I said earlier that if east Europeans have paid tax and then become unemployed they should recieve that tax paid back in kind by way of a social welfare payment and when they have recieved that ammount back that's it, no more. They then have to return to their own countries.

And you say I am racist/xenophobic, huh, I guess that's why I am married to a non-Irish national...sure that makes sense alright. But then when people don't wish to engage in adult debate it is always an easy way out to start labelling and insulting others. Immature.

ongarite

ejmaztec wrote: »

Every EU citizen is entitled to claim unemployment benefit from whichever EU state they happen to be in when they become become unemployed.

Thats is incorrect. The way marti8 and helix are trying to interpret it is that once you are unemployeed, any EU citizen can come to Ireland for example and claim unemployement benefit.

A EU citizen is not entitled to ANY assistance from social welfare unless they have built up PRSI stamps gained from working around 2 years in this country.

Mena

Allah Hu Akbar wrote: »

How does it work for people outside the EU? Example Africa! There's loads down where I am none of them work yet they drive big fancy family cars so they can fit their 10 kids in. They even get their hair cut and keep the receipts and get the money back :eek:

Jeez, do I really need to correct this type of utter balderdash and ignorance every day on these forums...

You sir, don't have a clue what you are talking about. Back under your rock.

ongarite

marti8 wrote: »

And you say I am racist/xenophobic, huh, I guess that's why I am married to a non-Irish national...sure that makes sense alright. But then when people don't wish to engage in adult debate it is always an easy way out to start labelling and insulting others. Immature.

That logic is fecked up. Are you then implying that you would send your non-national spouse back to their own country if they were unemployeed?

ejmaztec

marti8 wrote: »

And that is the problem. The governmenet could have introduced a green card system for east Europeans but they didn't. Yet, when Bulgaria and Romania joined their citizens weren't allowed to work freely in other EU States........

It is an unequal system, a system which works against Ireland and costs us a lot of money. There is no incentive for an Irish person working in an eastern European country to claim their social welfare, there is a huge incentive for an eastern European in Ireland to claim Iirsh social welfare.

These people paid their dues and are entitled to benefits. Anything else is "unequal". Were all of the unemployed Irish to return from across the planet, what is being paid to "Eastern Europeans" wouldn't even be noticed.

For non-EU citizens however, it's a different story. Spain and the Czech Republic, for example, have offered to pay their non-EU unemployed to go home.

marti8

ongarite wrote: »

Thats is incorrect. The way marti8 and helix are trying to interpret it is that once you are unemployeed, any EU citizen can come to Ireland for example and claim unemployement benefit.

A EU citizen is not entitled to ANY assistance from social welfare unless they have built up PRSI stamps gained from working around 2 years in this country.

No I haven't misinterpreted it, that is what I have been saying. If an eastern European national has become unemployed after 2 years working here then they should get social welfare.....but uptothe ammount of tax which they have already paid. There is no sensible reason as to why east European national should be a burden on this State especially in these very tough times we are facing.

Mena

ejmaztec wrote: »

For non-EU citizens however, it's a different story. Spain and the Czech Republic, for example, have offered to pay their non-EU unemployed to go home.

We're perfectly entitled to claim welfare benefits as well, so long as we meet the habitual residence rule and have the two years worth of PRSI stamps to match. This being said, it has very serious repercussions if you want to apply for naturalisation at some point, in that you'll be flat declined.

ejmaztec

ongarite wrote: »

Thats is incorrect. The way marti8 and helix are trying to interpret it is that once you are unemployeed, any EU citizen can come to Ireland for example and claim unemployement benefit.

A EU citizen is not entitled to ANY assistance from social welfare unless they have built up PRSI stamps gained from working around 2 years in this country.

That's what I'm talking about - the dues have been paid - so they have as much right as any other EU citizen to claim benefits.

marti8

ongarite wrote: »

That logic is fecked up. Are you then implying that you would send your non-national spouse back to their own country if they were unemployeed?

Nope, you seem to have difficulty following this topic. I am not talking about the dependants of an Irish citizen be they non-national or not, I am talking about east Europeans who come here, work for over 2 years, become unemployed through, probably, no fault of their own and who then can claim Irish social welfare indefinetly. That is what I am talking about, "d'ya get me like?"

aare

ejmaztec wrote: »

For non-EU citizens however, it's a different story. Spain and the Czech Republic, for example, have offered to pay their non-EU unemployed to go home.

I think that is realistic...

Apart from genuine asylum seekers many of these people came here to work...and if there is no work they would probably be happier at home...

However, resettlement costs money, so a resettlement grant might be a deciding factor for many of them.

GuanYin

OK.

OP, your answer will depend on this thread living or dying.

Why should someone who has paid two years of social taxes not receive social benefits?

(I'm ignoring you've moved from the... "they shouldn't get dole" to "send them all home"....... for now...).