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Non-citizens getting the dole? Time to stop it?
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What exactly is your problem? Non-nationals claiming the dole is the least of our worries in Ireland today. Are you pissed because you feel you should be getting more money instead of giving people who actually paid tax the dole when they've lost their job?
Your views are short sighted and narrow minded. Without the support of Europe "in the current climate" like you keep saying we would be in far more trouble. Treating fellow EU citizens with contempt(which is what your proposing) will not help Ireland. It will however keep closet racists like you happy :rolleyes:
We have got billions from Europe which enabled us to develop and transform into a modern society in which we exist. Its ironic that without recieving money from Europe we would be still living in the dark ages(google Ireland in the 70's), no multinational would invest here, we would still be emigrating en masse working minimum wages around the world and whatever social welfare payment you currently get would probably not exist
You seem to have forgotten the part whereby those on the minimum wage didn't pay tax...so what are you actually talking about when you say they should get the dole because they have paid tax?.....Do you mean those non-nationals who have paid tax?......
I am all for giving non-nationals who have paid tax that tax back by way of social welfare benefits.
Yes, the EU gave us money WHEN IT HAD MONEYTO GIVE.......Ireland is giving non-nationals money WHEN IT DOES NOT HAVE MONEY TO GIVE. Do you understand the difference I wonder? And you are forgetting that we, Ireland, also gave our waters over to the EU......wonder how much that was and is worth?
And no, I am not racist. But maybe that is one of the only "...ist" words you know.0 -
Well, we disagree. You are seriously suggesting that if a non-national needs money they should just "get it"? Oh yeah, that'd be a great situation, I can imagine how well that would work.......And you said that "you and I" pay tax, actually as I have said before, I don't.....I am in reciept of a social welfare payment, and have no qualms about that and n difficulty in saying I am, why should I? I am an Irish citizen, and yes, I have a non-national dependant.
So, what do you suggest the under 20's do who do not or can not live at home for whatever reason and they cannot get a job or they cannot find a place on a training course (after which they might still not in al probabilituy get a job) and who have just had their social welfare entitlements cut by 50% actually do?
I'm seriously suggesting that if anyone needs and deserves money they should get it. Are you seriously suggesting you would rather pay some lazy Irish pr!ck (who has been a drain on our nation for many years all because he couldn't be arsed getting a job), than a hard-working, educated, industrious foreigner that was made redundant? As for the under 20's I never said I agreed with that change. I'm actually completely against it. Just because most of them don't need it, doesn't mean they have stop it on everyone. Which is why it should means tested. Which is also why I said "If you're an 18 year old living away from home, then yes, you should get the full amount."niceguyjoe wrote: »this subjct cvould go on and on forever im really biting my tounge on here now
very gray area
but i will say this.
letting people come to any country with no work when they get off the boat .. thats plain stupid
not to mention getting paid for it.. via welfare
That is stupid. It's almost like thousands of Irish people sailing to America with no jobs or housing. What a crazy world that would be. Wait a minute...:rolleyes:As I said quite an ignorant individual (you call me "racist"....I'll call you "ignorant"....)
It is not racist to suggest that non-nationals should only recieve in social welfare that ammount which they have paid in tax.........
No it's not. But it is racist to treat someone differently because of where they come from, no matter how you try to justify it. The KKK thought they were fighting the good fight too... (Just to clarify I'm not lumping you in with them. I'm just making a point0 -
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jealousy, close mindedness, xenophobia, unfamiliarity with life/business/economics/globalisation
take a pick
Ireland as a country chose to be as interconnected as possible to the global system this has allowed this country to grow faster than the rest when the times where good but also fall harder in recent tough times (tho we are still relatively among the richest countries per capita)
Treating workers from EU or even other countries as second class citizens, rejecting any further EU integration, putting in trade barriers will send us back to the bog we crawled out of eating spuds and being the poorman of europe yet again
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your being a bit hard on the OP to be honest. Both of you are soap-boxing big time and your not actually doing much to convince anyone of the validity of your "arguments". Calling each other racists and ignorant is hardly very clever now is it kids?
OP, your falling for the populist tabloid line, as in fairness, many people are. Your definition of Irish people and foreigners seems narrow. Your assumption that the majority of non-Irish workers are earning minimum wage and therefore not paying tax is somewhat simple. The largest grouping of non-nationals in this country actually are emigrants from the UK. Would be interesting to see the average earnings of the largest group within that population. Even if you solely look at those who came from the Eastern European states, many of those people where working in construction, and were doing pretty well for themselves, between basic rates of pay and add on overtime etc. Again, all paying tax.
Ionix i'd agree with you that any protectionist measures, no matter what form they take, would be severely detrimental in both the medium and long term. What might seem like a great idea now, would come back to haunt us once things start to pick up around the world again and companies look to invest overseas0 -
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Mystik Monkey wrote: »your being a bit hard on the OP to be honest. Both of you are soap-boxing big time and your not actually doing much to convince anyone of the validity of your "arguments". Calling each other racists and ignorant is hardly very clever now is it kids?
OP, your falling for the populist tabloid line, as in fairness, many people are. Your definition of Irish people and foreigners seems narrow. Your assumption that the majority of non-Irish workers are earning minimum wage and therefore not paying tax is somewhat simple. The largest grouping of non-nationals in this country actually are emigrants from the UK. Would be interesting to see the average earnings of the largest group within that population. Even if you solely look at those who came from the Eastern European states, many of those people where working in construction, and were doing pretty well for themselves, between basic rates of pay and add on overtime etc. Again, all paying tax.
Ionix i'd agree with you that any protectionist measures, no matter what form they take, would be severely detrimental in both the medium and long term. What might seem like a great idea now, would come back to haunt us once things start to pick up around the world again and companies look to invest overseas
Yes, you're right he is being hard on me, and it's not fair....I don't wanna play no more now...:( He's not a nice man. He's a big bad baddy..... :P
Seriously though, I am right and he is wrong why can't he just accept that?:rolleyes:
Anyway, I am not including UK nationals as "non-nationals" for reasons I have outlined time and again. And no, I haven't fallen for the so-called populist line. This is something I believe in as an individual. I am not a Daily Mail reader, in fact I read The Guardian...lol And I am not rightwing, in fact I consider myself leftwing.0 -
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there was a swipe at you in that post too matey
seriously though, realistically, preventing non - nationals from claiming welfare payments will only have a very limited effect on government finances. root and branch reform of the whole system of government is whats needed, we are pretty screwed, a few million here and a few million there won't make a jot of difference. We're in need of major cuts and efficiencies, in the region of billions!0 -
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I am saying Irish people should come first when it comes to social welfare and jobs. Just as I believe in Poland Poles should come first, in France French should come first etc etc.....
Comparing 2009 to 1849 is a bit out of touch.........
Let the KKK or any other racist group think whatever they want to, I don't agree with them in the remotest. And no it is not racist to treat someone differently based upon where they come from.....if I go to France can I vote for the President of France....no, why, because I am not French...are you suggesting that is racist?
I don't think the OP is racist.. It may sound like he is, but I (for what it's worth) don't think he is..
I just think he has misguided views on how to solve the countries problem.
He believes you can help by cutting payments to non Irish.. which sounds racist but in reality it's not any more rascist than creating opportunities in Ireland for inward investment to draw jobs away from foreign countries. It's just a different way of approaching the problem.
I believe he is misguided becuase imo his plan makes Ireland less attractive.. His plan is blunt and direct, but that doesn't make him a racist..
Just my 2c 0 -
Are you finished with your rant? Ok, you really need to cut down on your caffeine intake, pal. As an Irish national with a non-national dependant spouse (who no, isn't British.....you seem to have ENGLISH on the brain....) I am perfectly entitled to claim social welfare, these are the rules, this is the law and this is how I believe it should be, why? Because I am Irish, I am an Irish citizen. However, I believe non-nationals (ex.UK) should only be entitled to social welfare upto the ammount they contributed in taxes, why? Because they are not citizens.
I also believe that many Irish nationals cannot now get jobs because many of those jobs are now taken by non-nationals. This IS NOT fair, perhaps you think it is....and that's fine, have your opinion but you won't convnce me otherwise nor will you convince a growing number of Irish people.
Lol its not a rant, no more than your continued posting here for the last couple of days... :;)
Yes, you are prefectly entitled to claim benefit.. under the current laws.. as are non nationals
You want to discuss a change in the law.. which is what we are doing..
You want to cut benefits to non nationals to save cash.. great
I offer that we cut benefits to a lot more than that.. and save even more cash?
Why don't you agree? If we want to balance the books why not go back to the 80's/90's where we didnt fund extravagances like dole for peope living at home under 20's.. dole for students etc?
That would cut a lot more....0 -
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Mystik Monkey wrote: »this is pure madness. If we go down that road, then we really will be ****ed when things recover. Countries that in the past have used such measures have suffered long term. People have to remember that this is a temporary situation, just as the boom was. Things will sort out over time and while we'll not have the crazy growth of the last while, people will in the main be alright. It's no time for knee jerk reactions.
Sure even if we enacted a policy of forcing companies to employ Irish, we'd be no better off in real terms, as regardless of nationality, the worker is paying tax.
If you dont want non nationals here for extended periods claiming dole, then make our dole less attractive then other countries..
We don't get blacklisted for draconian laws then..
But as a beneficiary of our extravagant social welfare system as the OP is.. i somehow don't think he would like that solution
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I don't think the OP is racist.. It may sound like he is, but I (for what it's worth) don't think he is..
I just think he has misguided views on how to solve the countries problem.
He believes you can help by cutting payments to non Irish.. which sounds racist but in reality it's not any more rascist than creating opportunities in Ireland for inward investment to draw jobs away from foreign countries. It's just a different way of approaching the problem.
I believe he is misguided becuase imo his plan makes Ireland less attractive.. His plan is blunt and direct, but that doesn't make him a racist..
Just my 2c
Yes, you are right I am not racist in the slightest. And I know that saving several hundred million (I haven't done the figures but if there are over 47,000 non-nationals on the dole.....) by not allowing non-nationals the same access to the social welfare system will not solve the countrys problems of course not, but it's a start! We also need to address the fact that Irish people cannot now get jobs because those jobs are already occupied by non-nationals...... 0 -
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If you dont want non nationals here for extended periods claiming dole, then make our dole less attractive then other countries..
We don't get blacklisted for draconian laws then..
But as a beneficiary of our extravagant social welfare system as the OP is.. i somehow don't think he would like that solution
Why should Irish citizens suffer huge reductions in dole payments while at the same time non-nationals live a more comfortable life on the dole than if they were even working in their home countries? The Irish social welfare system worked quite well for quite a long time until , until, there was an influx (and yes, hundreds of thousand IS an influx) of foreign nationals.
The Irish social welfare in my opinion should be primarily designed to aid Irish nationals not foreign nationals.0 -
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Yes, you are right I am not racist in the slightest. And I know that saving several hundred million (I haven't done the figures but if there are over 47,000 non-nationals on the dole.....) by not allowing non-nationals the same access to the social welfare system will not solve the countrys problems of course not, but it's a start! We also need to address the fact that Irish people cannot now get jobs because those jobs are already occupied by non-nationals......
So.. with that agreed
There are two things that draw low income people to Ireland..
1) High statutory basic wage
2) High Social Welfare payments.
1) brings them here (as did job availability obviously) 2) keeps them here...
Would you agree that we should cut 2) down to less than other European countries to save cash and act as a disencentive to come here?
We (of course) have to do it across the board for all the reasons that have been mentioned before... so everyone takes a dole cut for dear old Ireland and the non nationals have no reason to stay here,and we save tons...
Problem solved? 0
This discussion has been closed.
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