Non-citizens getting the dole? Time to stop it?

stainluss

Mena wrote: »

In fact, scrap it altogether, for every one. The whole idea of a welfare state still amuses me. Use the money to create jobs.

there is no way in hell that will ever happen (or work)
what would happen to the people who can't find work?
starvation?

marti8

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

why do we need to address this?

Because when you have Irish people unable to get jobs because those very same jobs are already taken by non-nationals, that is why this should be addressed by the lame excuse for a government we have.

Ok, you have bankers, architects and accountants trying to get jobs in McDonalds now, these days......but they can't! yet if they walk in for a BigSmack they;ll very likely be served by a non-national....this WILL breed greater and greater resentment.

It is not that fault of the non-national, I know this and it woud be crazy to suggest it was. But it is a problem nonetheless.

"Do zou want fries with you BigSmack, Sir?"

:mad: "No, I want a job!"

Dr Galen

i'm still not totally sure though why it needs to be addressed? Being Irish is nothing more than an accident of birth, and shouldn't in my book give me a right to a job over someone else, just because their accident of birth happened in Germany/Birmingham/Latvia etc

As far as I'm concerned, if someone works, pays taxes and conducts themselves properly, then leave them to it

stevelknievel

marti8 wrote: »

Em, are you referring to Irish emmigration in the 80's to the US, Australia and so on....all places which we needed visas to go? EU nationals in Ireland, the majority of whom come from east European states do not require visas or work permits to come to Ireland....big difference.

Already in Ireland non-nationals have to have been working 2 years to get social welfare....but Irish citizens do not. I guess you'd consider this "racist"?

And to answer your first question, YES, I believe that Irish nationals have more of an entitlement to social welfare than non-nationals, by sole virtue of nationality. Simple as that. However, I have never said non-nationals are not entitled to social welfare full stop.

But you're problem isn't directly with work permits or visas. It is to do with the amount of non-nationals claiming welfare here. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the number is around 46,000. In 1989 alone, 49,000 Irish people left for America, with 10s of 1000s in the years before and after this.
Would you say non-nationals who worked for 2 years in a mimum wage role (and therefore paid no taxes) are not entitled to social welfare full stop?

herya

marti8 wrote: »

Ok, you have abnkers, architects and accountants trying to get jobs in McDonalds now, these days......but they can't! yet if they walk in for a BigSmack they;ll very likely be served by a non-national....this WILL breed greater and greater resentment.

So you think your non-national wife should never be allowed to work in Ireland?

Welease

marti8 wrote: »

Why should Irish citizens suffer huge reductions in dole paymenst while at the same time non-nationals live a more comfortable life on the dole than if they were even working in their home countries? They Irish social welfare system worked quite well for quite a long time until , until, there was an influx (and yes, hundreds of thousand IS an influx) of foreign nationals.

The Irish social welfare in my opinion should be primarily designed to aid Irish nationals not foreign nationals.

Actually I disagree... as per my "rant".. the system was fine until it was extended to cover students, under 20's living at home, and all the other people who want a state handout for doing jack... in the 80's you didn't get squat until you were broke, and then just enough to keep you afloat...
In the 80's i never heard the cry, it's not worth me going back to work i end up with less.....

It should be designed to help nationals (Irish or non is another debate), but at the moment its a joke, paying long term payments to people who have 0 incentive to get off their arses and do anything (Irish or not)

Those hundred's of thousand non nationaly paid tax into the governments coffers, there is only a fraction claiming benefit.

marti8

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

i'm still not totally sure though why it needs to be addressed? Being Irish is nothing more than an accident of birth, and shouldn't in my book give me a right to a job over someone else, just because their accident of birth happened in Germany/Birmingham/Latvia etc

As far as I'm concerned, if someone works, pays taxes and conducts themselves properly, then leave them to it

Well, this is where we have a very big difference of opinion

Welease

marti8 wrote: »

Ok, you have abnkers, architects and accountants trying to get jobs in McDonalds now, these days......but they can't! yet if they walk in for a BigSmack they;ll very likely be served by a non-national....this WILL breed greater and greater resentment.
quote]

Sorry but that's crap.. If any banker/architect/accountant is going for a job flipping burgers then they are talking crap.. Sorry but I am gonna call "Daily Mirror" or BS on this one.. I don't know anyone banker/architect or accountant that could make ends meet on a McDonalds salary with the mortgages/loans they have.. And if their port of call is flipping burgers they were at best untrained junior staff with no resourcefulness (is that even a word?)

herya

If there were any banker etc applicants for McDonalds jobs (although I doubt it very much) it was most like to get a rejection and present it to the welfare office to get their dole or other benefits. I believe that you need to show them that you are actively looking for work also outside your field of expertise so people apply for all kinds of crazy unrelated jobs to be able to present their rejection letters as proof of job seeking activity.

marti8

herya wrote: »

So you think your non-national wife should never be allowed to work in Ireland?

Nope, as I outlined previously dependants of Irish citizens should, and do, have the right to work (as far as I'm aware) This is my opinion, why? Because this is what is best for me and mine, simple, of course it is selfish. But it also makes sense because if you have an Irish national with a non-national spouse then the Irish national may not depending on his/her skills etc have enough money to support 2 people and would then have to pssibily apply for Family Income Supplement or whatever it's called (if it even still exists?!)

Also the spouse of an Irish person can get naturalised ater X years, 3 years and then process starts so that once non-national then becomes an Irish citizen.

herya

marti8 wrote: »

Nope, as I outlined previously dependants of Irish citizens should, and do, have the right to work (as far as I'm aware) This is my opinion, why? Because this is what is best for me and mine, simple, of course it is selfish.

I've no problem with you rooting for what's best for you and yours, it's just the part when you believe it is automatically best for Ireland that is silly.

And if you divorce your wife before she get citizenship, she is no longer entitled to work here? Also can't you see how many fake marriages would immediately appear?

meathstevie

marti8 wrote: »

You seem to be very misinformed I have to say. The deciding factor, in fact if it even registers on the scale it is tiny, for foreign companies starting up in Ireland is not whether their employees will ever get social welfare should they lay them off..........

Ireland has several advantages some other EU States don't: English Speaking country, Low Corporate Tax, Highly Educated and Skilled workforce, IDA inticements and so on and so on.....Yes, we have shortcomings of course but that is not what this thread is about.

Do you realy believe that done to death line ? Crap infrastructure, overpriced and shoddy services is more like it...And as for English speaking, anywhere in Western Europe has a decent amount of second language English speakers. How many German, French, Spanish, Dutch or whatever speakers are there in Ireland ? Real speakers, not the sort of leaving cert lines that passes for language knowledge.

marti8

Welease wrote: »

marti8 wrote: »

Ok, you have abnkers, architects and accountants trying to get jobs in McDonalds now, these days......but they can't! yet if they walk in for a BigSmack they;ll very likely be served by a non-national....this WILL breed greater and greater resentment.
quote]

Sorry but that's crap.. If any banker/architect/accountant is going for a job flipping burgers then they are talking crap.. Sorry but I am gonna call "Daily Mirror" or BS on this one.. I don't know anyone banker/architect or accountant that could make ends meet on a McDonalds salary with the mortgages/loans they have.. And if their port of call is flipping burgers they were at best untrained junior staff with no resourcefulness (is that even a word?)

Well, it's true, see: http://www.examiner.ie/ireland/idojidaumh/

And no it's not the Daily Mail.

Welease

marti8 wrote: »

Welease wrote: »

Well, it's true, see: http://www.examiner.ie/ireland/idojidaumh/

And no it's not the Daily Mail.

It's an unsubstantiated report from someone who gets free advertising about a new franchise opening... what a surprise..

Do you think a REAL banker or accountant with mortgage/loans would spend their day flipping burgers for minimum wage ? i.e. go bankrupt....
or would they spend their time getting a job that satisfies their outgoings?

Get real....

Dr Galen

marti8 wrote: »

Well, this is where we have a very big difference of opinion

so would you like to explain your rationale behind believing that such an accident of birth should entitle you to special treatment?

marti8

herya wrote: »

I've no problem with you rooting for what's best for you and yours, it's just the part when you believe it is automatically best for Ireland that is silly.

And if you divorce your wife before she get citizenship, she is no longer entitled to work here? Also can't you see how many fake marriages would immediately appear?

Sorry but you have lost me? Fake marriages would appear when exactly? I don't understand what you are talking about?

Of course there are fake marriages out there, without doubt, that however does not mean that all Irish/non-national marriages are fake. It is upto the relevant authorities to spot them and deal with them.

herya

marti8 wrote: »

Sorry but you have lost me? Fake marriages would appear when exactly? I don't understand what you are talking about?

You say that what's not OK for a non-national is OK for your non-national wife (since she married you an Irish citizen).

Therefore in your system all it takes to be entitled to everything is to marry an Irish citizen. How many scumbags would gladly accept couple thou to have a fake husband/wife for a couple of years, and maybe even get benefits for them on top of it?

Dr Galen

so how does it tally that Irish jobs for Irish people would benefit the state right now? In a real sense, not in any airy fairy, it will prevent resentment way. If, as is claimed by many, we are a highly educated people, then surely our education should have opened our minds past such petty resentment?

marti8

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

so would you like to explain your rationale behind believing that such an accident of birth should entitle you to special treatment?

Because the world is made up of nation states, I am Irish, someone else is Russian, someone else is Japanese and so on and so on. Each country will have certain rules and regulations for it's own nationals and certain rules and regulations for foreigners.

For exampe, just take the US.....Americans have more rights than non-nationals, as it should be.There are non-nationals there of course, millions but the American governments first responsibility is towards its own American citizens, its first responsibility is not towards the non-nationals residing in America!

Nationality, citizenship confers rights and priviledges, that's my view.

marti8

herya wrote: »

You say that what's not OK for a non-national is OK for your non-national wife (since she married you an Irish citizen).

Therefore in your system all it takes to be entitled to everything is to marry an Irish citizen. How many scumbags would gladly accept couple thou to have a fake husband/wife for a couple of years, and maybe even get benefits for them on top of it?

No, not in "my system" as you said, this already happens worldwide, not just in Ireland.

Dr Galen

marti8 wrote: »

Because the world is made up of nation states, I am Irish, someone else is Russian, someone else is Japanese and so on and so on. Each country will have certain rules and regulations for it's own nationals and certain rules and regulations for foreigners.

For exampe, just take the US.....Americans have more rights than non-nationals, as it should be.There are non-nationals there of course, millions but the American governments first responsibility is towards its own American citizens, its first responsibility is not towards the non-nationals residing in America!

Nationality, citizenship confers rights and priviledges, that's my view.

a goverments responsibility is to govern. They are elected by the people manage the countries institutions. Most of which are there for the service of all people living within the borders.

your right, birth does confer certain priviledges and rights, but that stops far short of your idea of Irish jobs for Irish people.

marti8

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

so how does it tally that Irish jobs for Irish people would benefit the state right now? In a real sense, not in any airy fairy, it will prevent resentment way. If, as is claimed by many, we are a highly educated people, then surely our education should have opened our minds past such petty resentment?

Ok, lets say there are 50,000 (it's just a random number) Irish people looking for work, actually genuinely looking. But they can't find work. At the very same time there are 50,000 non-nationals in jobs that those 50,000 could do......So, what happens, the Irish stay on the dole while the non-nationals continue working. And not only that, just say 25,000, half, of those 50,000 Irish people looking for jobs are under 20 (whose dole has just been cut in half!).........then you'll have resentment.

It is a fact that having non-nationals in positions that could be filled by Irish nationals is denying Irish people jobs. To say otherwise is simply not correct.

marti8

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

a goverments responsibility is to govern. They are elected by the people manage the countries institutions. Most of which are there for the service of all people living within the borders.

your right, birth does confer certain priviledges and rights, but that stops far short of your idea of Irish jobs for Irish people.

No, it doesn't stop far short of the idea of Irish jobs for Irish people. It lands right on the doorstep of it.

Welease

marti8 wrote: »

Ok, lets say there are 50,000 (it's just a random number) Irish people looking for work, actually genuinely looking. But they can't find work. At the very same time there are 50,000 non-nationals in jobs that those 50,000 could do......So, what happens, the Irish stay on the dole while the non-nationals continue working. And not only that, just say 25,000, half, of those 50,000 Irish people looking for jobs are under 20.........then you'll have resentment.

It is a fact that having non-nationals in positions that could be filled by Irish nationals is denying Irish people jobs. To say otherwise is simply not correct.

So, if we want that to stop happening.. lets leave the EU and stop them coming in... thats your solution?

Start dealing with the realities of what you propose.. if you dont want non nationals coming to Ireland, you HAVE to leave the EU.. so how would you fund all the programs that the EU fund for us.. given for the last 30+ years we have taken far more than we have given..

Stop the rhetoric.. give us real details on how your plan would work...

Who will fund all of the roads/infrastructure etc. that we have build and continue to need building?
How will we cope without access to the EU market?
How will we cope without the cash we get from the EU?

Spell out exactly how your plan works...

marti8

Welease wrote: »

So, if we want that to stop happening.. lets leave the EU and stop them coming in... thats your solution?

Start dealing with the realities of what you propose.. if you dont want non nationals coming to Ireland, you HAVE to leave the EU.. so how would you fund all the programs that the EU fund for us.. given for the last 30+ years we have taken far more than we have given..

Stop the rhetoric.. give us real details on how your plan would work...

Who will fund all of the roads/infrastructure etc. that we have build and continue to need building?
How will we cope without access to the EU market?
How will we cope without the cash we get from the EU?

Spell out exactly how your plan works...

Vell, virst ve get ze machine guns vit ze ammo zen ve find ze nice long. long vall and zen ve......:D

Listen, I don't know how it would work. I don't have a solution as to how we could implement such an idea, it is that, an idea. One I wish we could implement but as I have said before one which we may not be able to.

One thing I do know is that the EU does not, has not and will not respect it's own rules, legally binding rules. I am talking of the Lisbon Treaty which says it must be ratified in ALL member States to come into force. They didn't respect the will of the Irish people last year when we voted NO (neither did our so-called government) and it is most likely they will not respect the will of the Irish people should, and I hope we do, vote NO again (when we are forced in subversion of the democratic process to vote yet again)

If they don't respect EU law then why should we..............

Welease

marti8 wrote: »

Vell, virst ve get ze machine guns vit ze ammo zen ve find ze nice long. long vall and zen ve......:D

You Win

Dr Galen

marti8 wrote: »

Ok, lets say there are 50,000 (it's just a random number) Irish people looking for work, actually genuinely looking. But they can't find work. At the very same time there are 50,000 non-nationals in jobs that those 50,000 could do......So, what happens, the Irish stay on the dole while the non-nationals continue working. And not only that, just say 25,000, half, of those 50,000 Irish people looking for jobs are under 20 (whose dole has just been cut in half!).........then you'll have resentment.

so we should set our policies on non-Irish nationals working on the basis of not making people annoyed? hardly a great advert for our highly educated workforce is it?

as has been pointed out, in order to put your plans into action we'd have to leave the EU. How would you plan to square that circle?

It is a fact that having non-nationals in positions that could be filled by Irish nationals is denying Irish people jobs. To say otherwise is simply not correct.

i don't deny this as a fact. I do disagree though that it's as much of an issue as you make out, or solved by the action you'd propose

Dr Galen

marti8 wrote: »

Vell, virst ve get ze machine guns vit ze ammo zen ve find ze nice long. long vall and zen ve......:D

Listen, I don't know how it would work. I don't have a solution as to how we could implement such an idea, it is that, an idea. One I wish we could implement but as I have said before one which we may not be able to.

so you wish we could implement an idea, but have given little thought to how such an idea could or would be put into practice?

I don;t think it qualifies as an idea then, i'd class it as more of a ramble then

marti8

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

so you wish we could implement an idea, but have given little thought to how such an idea could or would be put into practice?

I don;t think it qualifies as an idea then, i'd class it as more of a ramble then

Well, we could do exactly what the EU does to us, ignore EU law...

Dr Galen

so you suggest we leave the EU then? Because thats the essence of what you suggest.

In any case, am I right in saying that you would think that operating a protectionist range of policies would benefit the economy?