Non-citizens getting the dole? Time to stop it?

marti8

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

so you wish we could implement an idea, but have given little thought to how such an idea could or would be put into practice?

I don;t think it qualifies as an idea then, i'd class it as more of a ramble then

Ok, for example currently non-nationals can claim dole after having worked 2 years....as a start why not extend that time frame, to say 5 years or 10 years.....obviously it is not in violation of current EU law as there is already the 2 year time frame. That could be a start.

As for jobs, this perhaps the government couldn't deal with, however people power could (Irish of course, all green and shiney and lovely....;)) An earlier poster raised the idea of boycotting companies who employed non-nationals at the expense of Irish nationals. It's an idea I guess.

Welease

marti8 wrote: »

It is a fact that having non-nationals in positions that could be filled by Irish nationals is denying Irish people jobs. To say otherwise is simply not correct.

Actually.. I have never met a business that employed less skilled/fitting employees than the best that were applying..
If the Irish person doesnt meet the standards of the foreign applicant, it would be commercial suicide to employ a worse employee based on country of birth... Have you ever run a business?

Welease

marti8 wrote: »

Ok, for example currently non-nationals can claim dole after having worked 2 years....as a start why not extend that time frame, to say 5 years or 10 years.....obviously it is not in violation of current EU law as there is already the 2 year time frame. That could be a start.

As for jobs, this perhaps the government couldn't deal with, however people power could (Irish of course, all green and shiney and lovely....;)) An earlier poster raised the idea of boycotting companies who employed non-nationals at the expense of Irish nationals. It's an idea I guess.

Why go to that bother? You ignore my previous point (I presume because you take a hit).. why not move the dole down to a level that is well below our EU counterparts.. that would fix the problem in an instance....

marti8

Welease wrote: »

Actually.. I have never met a business that employed less skilled/fitting employees than the best that were applying..
If the Irish person doesnt meet the standards of the foreign applicant, it would be commercial suicide to employ a worse employee based on country of birth... Have you ever run a business?

It doesn't take much skill to flip a burger or pack a box or whatever else. if there is a specific skills shortage then fine, as I have already said, let non-nationals take those jobs by way of work permits.

If you can't find an Irish person to do it fine, hire a foreigner but if you can find an Irish person to do it then hire the Irish person.

We have a small online business but as I said already we study, f/t and p/t and I recieve a social welfare payment.

Dr Galen

marti8 wrote: »

Ok, for example currently non-nationals can claim dole after having worked 2 years....as a start why not extend that time frame, to say 5 years or 10 years.....obviously it is not in violation of current EU law as there is already the 2 year time frame. That could be a start.

i'm not sure what your trying to achieve with measures like that? is it to make everyone feel more Irish? To cool the nationalist waters? If it's a policy based on economics then I can't see how it would make any real difference.

As for jobs, this perhaps the government couldn't deal with, however people power could (Irish of course, all green and shiney and lovely....;)) An earlier poster raised the idea of boycotting companies who employed non-nationals at the expense of Irish nationals. It's an idea I guess.

so say this gets through, then what happens in 5 years when hopefully the worldwide economic situation has improved. Where will all the FDI come from?

marti8

Welease wrote: »

Why go to that bother? You ignore my previous point (I presume because you take a hit).. why not move the dole down to a level that is well below our EU counterparts.. that would fix the problem in an instance....

No, I didn't take a "hit" as you called it. Simply put that would not be a good idea for Irish peole in reciept of social welfare, why should irish nationals suffer becuase of foreign nationals? As I see it Irish people have a right to welfare BY VIRTUE OF NATIONALITY.

I have heard of a race to the bottom business wise, that would be a race to bottom welfare wise.

marti8

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

i'm not sure what your trying to achieve with measures like that? is it to make everyone feel more Irish? To cool the nationalist waters? If it's a policy based on economics then I can't see how it would make any real difference.



so say this gets through, then what happens in 5 years when hopefully the worldwide economic situation has improved. Where will all the FDI come from?

FDI would still be here but with Irish workers. Big business doesn't really care about internal domestic politics, and certainy doesn't care whether it's Irish people or non-nationals doing the work...just as long as they are skilled and do a good job. And if theres a shortage of skilled Irish then fine have a work permit process for non-nationals, no probs with that whatsoever.

ceret

marti8 wrote: »

why just eastern Europe? Because that is where the majority of non-nationals living in Ireland today are from.

Incorrect. UK citizens are the major nonnational group in Ireland. In the 2006 Census there were 112,000 UK people in Ireland out of 419,000 non-Irish. Next highest is Poland, with 63,000 people. i.e. for every Polish citizen there are 2 UK citzens.

http://www.cso.ie/statistics/nationalityagegroup.htm Check your stats.

Welease

marti8 wrote: »

It doesn't take much skill to flip a burger or pack a box or whatever else. if there is a specific skills shortage then fine, as I have already said, let non-nationals take those jobs by way of work permits.

If you can't find an Irish person to do it fine, hire a foreigner but if you can find an Irish person to do it then hire the Irish person.

We have a small online business but as I said already we study, f/t and p/t and I recieve a social welfare payment.

As I said, and you continue to ignore, drop dole down to the levels of the rest of the EU.. problem solved..
You don't want that because you continue to milk the system..
You have 0 credibility, while you run an online business (i.e. have an income), go to college and have people like me pay for you and your non national wife's living expenses.

When you have the balls/initiative to pay your own way and not leech off the system, you might gain some credibility.. Then come and talk to us again....

Dr Galen

marti8 wrote: »

FDI would still be here but with Irish workers. Big business doesn't really care about internal domestic politics, and certainy doesn't care whether it's Irish people or non-nationals doing the work...just as long as they are skilled and do a good job. And if theres a shortage of skilled Irish then fine have a work permit process for non-nationals, no probs with that whatsoever.

again you fail to see the bigger picture.

not all FDI comes from so-called Big Business for a start,plenty of small-medium sized business have invested here and created jobs and wealth.

Many companies would look at Ireland following those policies and decide not to invest, purely on the basis that if we ignored the evidence and went down this line, they would have concerns over the management of the economy etc as a whole.

Also, without a population of non-national workers, wages in many sectors would more than likely be higher. Further eroding our competitiveness, which is pretty crap anyway. Not that I'd advocate a "race to the bottom" in terms of wages, but certainly restraint is an important factor.

I'm beginning to think that this is a losing battle here. All I'll say is that if the country went down the road your suggesting, I'd not be hanging around

marti8

Welease wrote: »

As I said, and you continue to ignore, drop dole down to the levels of the rest of the EU.. problem solved..
You don't want that because you continue to milk the system..
You have 0 credibility, while you run an online business (i.e. have an income), go to college and have people like me pay for you and your non national wife's living expenses.

When you have the balls/initiative to pay your own way and not leech off the system, you might gain some credibility.. Then come and talk to us again....

Wrong....oh, again. Irish nationals and their dependants are fully entitled to claim social welfare as I believe it should be. Does it benefit me, of course it does, why shouldn't it? Do I believe the very same measures should apply to non-nationals, obviously not.

You keep with this ridiculous mantra of drop the dole levels to the rest of the EU? What on earth are you talking about, you really do need to think through your case before stating it, what levels? German, Swedish, Danish, Dutch, Austrian, Finnish, French, Belgian, Luxembourger.......or maybe you are thinking more along the lines of Slovakia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland........There is NO European level, there are European LEVELS, different in each State.

Fine drop the ammount of social welfare paid but also drop the prices for goods and services, to use your reasoning to a "European level"..........

We have a welfare state, very obviously you don't believe in a welfare state......you'd rather everyone was on the breadline, typical selfish, greedy, capitalist thinking.

marti8

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

again you fail to see the bigger picture.

not all FDI comes from so-called Big Business for a start,plenty of small-medium sized business have invested here and created jobs and wealth.

Many companies would look at Ireland following those policies and decide not to invest, purely on the basis that if we ignored the evidence and went down this line, they would have concerns over the management of the economy etc as a whole.

Also, without a population of non-national workers, wages in many sectors would more than likely be higher. Further eroding our competitiveness, which is pretty crap anyway. Not that I'd advocate a "race to the bottom" in terms of wages, but certainly restraint is an important factor.

I'm beginning to think that this is a losing battle here. All I'll say is that if the country went down the road your suggesting, I'd not be hanging around

Huh, funny that...I recall that during the boom and pre-EU enlargement that we operated a work permit system and had no problem attracting FDI? Your case doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

I fail to see why small or medium or even large business would not invest in Ireland if we operated a work permit scheme, as we did...and also had a skilled workforce, I just don't see your reasoning.

Welease

marti8 wrote: »

FDI would still be here but with Irish workers. Big business doesn't really care about internal domestic politics, and certainy doesn't care whether it's Irish people or non-nationals doing the work...just as long as they are skilled and do a good job. And if theres a shortage of skilled Irish then fine have a work permit process for non-nationals, no probs with that whatsoever.

Correct they don't care, while there are no limitations on who they can bring in to do the job. Put limitations in place on having skilled non nationals in place and they will care... So again, explain in detail how your scheme would work..

The biggest single private employer in this country is in the semi conductor manufacturing business. There was no experience in this country to fill those jobs initially with local employees, what would your legislation look like.. and how would it have impacted them coming here?

Welease

marti8 wrote: »

Wrong....oh, again. Irish nationals and their dependants are fully entitled to claim social welfare as I believe it should be. Does it benefit me, of course it does, why shouldn't it? Do I believe the very same measures should apply to non-nationals, obviously not.

You keep with this ridiculous mantra of drop the dole levels to the rest of the EU? What on earth are you talking about, you really do need to think through your case before stating it, what levels? German, Swedish, Danish, Dutch, Austrian, Finnish, French, Belgian, Luxembourger.......or maybe you are thinking more along the lines of Slovakia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland........There is NO European level, there are European LEVELS, different in each State.

Fine drop the ammount of social welfare paid but also drop the prices for goods and services, to use your reasoning to a "European level"..........

We have a welfare state, very obviously you don't believe in a welfare state......you'd rather everyone was on the breadline, typical selfish, greedy, capitalist thinking.

And you continue to avoid having to take a hit yourself.. Your issue.. as you have stated many times.. is with non nationals coming to this country and claiming dole and taking jobs?

So if we lower the statutory wage rate below the EU standard, and drop the social welfare rate below the EU standard then the problem goes away..

I don't see how I can make it any simpler for you.. What don't you understand?..

Do you think these nasty non-nationals would stay here is they got better benefits at home?

Oh no.. you've been exposed.. you don't a crap about the defecit, you want to continue to milk payments for you, your non-national wife, your business and your education..

At least have the balls to be honest about it....

marti8

Welease wrote: »

Correct they don't care, while there are no limitations on who they can bring in to do the job. Put limitations in place on having skilled non nationals in place and they will care... So again, explain in detail how your scheme would work..

The biggest single private employer in this country is in the semi conductor manufacturing business. There was no experience in this country to fill those jobs initially with local employees, what would your legislation look like.. and how would it have impacted them coming here?

There would be no restrictions on having skilled foreign workers employed, if they were needed that's fine. If there were no Irish people with the skills required then by all means hire foreign workers using a work permit system (one that operated effectively and quickly) Problem solved.

marti8

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

so you suggest we leave the EU then? Because thats the essence of what you suggest.

In any case, am I right in saying that you would think that operating a protectionist range of policies would benefit the economy?

No, I don't suggest we leave the EU. In fact I am pro-EU,as ironic as it may seem. And no, I don't favour protectionism in the sense you allude to. I do favour regulation however (and if we had correct regulation in the first place we wouldn't be in the mess we are today with the global economy)

Welease

marti8 wrote: »

We have a welfare state, very obviously you don't believe in a welfare state......you'd rather everyone was on the breadline, typical selfish, greedy, capitalist thinking.

Actually i fully believe in a welfare state.. I have paid into it since the mid 80's without complaint.. and given your explanation of your current circumstances I have paid a crap load more than you are likely to pay for the next 10-15 years minimum... I am happy to have done that..
Not once have I ever drawn from the money i have paid in via Social Welfare.

You pay zero into the welfare state, extract the maximum and feel like you would should be able to call the shots. I pay the top rate of tax with no issues (apart from where it's spent)

Grow up and defend your plan for the welfare state on it's merits, rather than trying to attack mine, when you contribute (and I apologise for the expression in advance) fk all the the exchequer compared to me...

Explain your plan..

Latchy

marti8 wrote: »

Ireland is a soft touch and has been for ages,

Some might say the UK which has a larger population and economy, is a much softer touch altogether .It's expected the unemployment figure there will rise to 3 million or more by this time next year and thousends of illegals are still trying to gain entry via France ( to claim the much better social welfare benifits ) Also many thousends of jobs in recent years have gone, and are going to non nationals .So likewise it's expected this trend wil continue for the forseeable future and no wonder that the British also feel aggrieved .

marti8

ceret wrote: »

Incorrect. UK citizens are the major nonnational group in Ireland. In the 2006 Census there were 112,000 UK people in Ireland out of 419,000 non-Irish. Next highest is Poland, with 63,000 people. i.e. for every Polish citizen there are 2 UK citzens.

http://www.cso.ie/statistics/nationalityagegroup.htm Check your stats.

I have already explained several times that for puposes of this little exercise UK nationals are not classified as "non-national" That is due to numerous reasons, one being northern Ireland, political, historical, cultural, economical, familial ties........also because there is a Common Travel Area between our 2 countries and also because the UK and Ireland have never viewed each others citizens when residing in whichever country as non-nationals per se. Irish citizens can get the dole, vote etc etc in the UK as can British people in Ireland.

Oh, and the largest number of unemployed foreign nationals in Ireland come from east European states.

Welease

marti8 wrote: »

There would be no restrictions on having skilled foreign workers employed, if they were needed that's fine. If there were no Irish people with the skills required then by all means hire foreign workers using a work permit system (one that operated effectively and quickly) Problem solved.

So how does that work? Put jobs out to tender for 6 months before they can employ non-nationals?

marti8

Welease wrote: »

So how does that work? Put jobs out to tender for 6 months before they can employ non-nationals?

Hmmmm, well, lets see, I wonder how it worked during the boom pre-EU expansion when we operated a work permit system? How did we ever manage I wonder? :rolleyes:

Welease

marti8 wrote: »

Oh, and the largest number of unemployed foreign nationals in Ireland come from east European states.

But the largest segment come from within Ireland (and hence the largest portion of an unsustainble bill)... as does the OP... so let's not change the eligibility within the country based on that

Welease

marti8 wrote: »

Hmmmm, well, lets see, I wonder how it worked during the boom pre-EU expansion when we operated a work permit system? How did we ever manage I wonder? :rolleyes:

No.. the rules have changes since then... you are planning to ban non nationals from getting initial jobs in direct contravention of the EU laws (who prop up this country financially)..

So how do you do it? (for about the 10th time).......

marti8

Welease wrote: »

Actually i fully believe in a welfare state.. I have paid into it since the mid 80's without complaint.. and given your explanation of your current circumstances I have paid a crap load more than you are likely to pay for the next 10-15 years minimum... I am happy to have done that..
Not once have I ever drawn from the money i have paid in via Social Welfare.

You pay zero into the welfare state, extract the maximum and feel like you would should be able to call the shots. I pay the top rate of tax with no issues (apart from where it's spent)

Grow up and defend your plan for the welfare state on it's merits, rather than trying to attack mine, when you contribute (and I apologise for the expression in advance) fk all the the exchequer compared to me...

Explain your plan..

My, my... what a holier than thou attitude you have! Em, yeah, I pay zero into the welfare State....em, people getting social welfare usually don't pay into it when their on it.....hello? :rolleyes:

I want to call the shots? Lol, since when.......I am making a suggestion that we could have less unemployed Irish people and, AND, reduce the ammount we now spend on social welfare. Not by reducing social welfare but by reducing eligibility for it.

Plan, what plan? "Where's the beef?!"........I never said I had A PLAN....this is a debate, a discussion, an engaging of opposing or agreeing views, that's it. It isn't upto me to make government policy but I certainly have every right to scrutinise it, whether I pay tax, drive a merc, dress in pink and shout "spank me daddy!...." or not, it doesn't really make a bit of difference!

Not that I suggest you dress in pink and say that.....:)

marti8

Welease wrote: »

But the largest segment come from within Ireland (and hence the largest portion of an unsustainble bill)... as does the OP... so let's not change the eligibility within the country based on that

Yes but as I said repeatedly Irish citizens have every right to be financially supported by the Irish government, this is a basic human right as I see it. Foreign nationals should not have every right to be financially supported by the Irish government because they are not Irish.......This is a question of nationality.

Welease

marti8 wrote: »

My, my... what a holier than thou attitude you have! Em, yeah, I pay zero into the welfare State....em, people getting social welfare usually don't pay into it when their on it.....hello? :rolleyes:

I want to call the shots? Lol, since when.......I am making a suggestion that we could less unemployed Irish people and, AND, reduce the ammount we now spend on social welfare. Not by reducing social welfare but by reducing eligibility for it.

Plan, what plan? "Where's the beef?!"........I never said I had A PLAN....this is a debate, a discussion, an engaging of opposing or agreeing views, that's it. It isn't upto me to make government policy but I certainly have every right to scrutinise it, whether I pay tax, drive a merc, dress in pink and shout "spank me daddy!...." , it doesn't really make a bit f difference!

I hate to be the one to break this to you, but when you leave the comfy world of education and social welfare handouts, and try to make an impactful proposal in the real world.. people (i.e. your boss if you ever manage to get a job) will probe beyond the superficial into the details....
If you don't have any details, as in*gasp* a plan.. they might suspect you don't have the vaguest understanding of the technicalities of what your propose.. which doesn't generally go down well..

"better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt"

marti8

Welease wrote: »

No.. the rules have changes since then... you are planning to ban non nationals from getting initial jobs in direct contravention of the EU laws (who prop up this country financially)..

So how do you do it? (for about the 10th time).......

Well, if you are talking about contravention of EU laws....just take a look a the Lisbon Treaty, we voted, we voted NO, that was not accepted by Brussels......hmmmm, isn't that in contravention of EU law? WE have been "told" that if we vote NO again that the EU will illegally move on without us....so sure lets talk about contravening EU law....

marti8

Welease wrote: »

I hate to be the one to break this to you, but when you leave the comfy world of education and social welfare handouts, and try to make an impactful proposal in the real world.. people (i.e. your boss if you ever manage to get a job) will probe beyond the superficial into the details....
If you don't have any details, as in*gasp* a plan.. they might suspect you don't have the vaguest understanding of the technicalities of what your propose.. which doesn't generally go down well..

"better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt"

You know what, I think that last line just about sums you up.....:)

I have said from the begining that it is legally not possible to do what I am suggesting, as the law stands right now...that doesn't mean the law isn't wrong, I think it is wrong and I think government policy is wrong.

Welease

marti8 wrote: »

Yes but as I said repeatedly Irish citizens have every right to be financially supported by the Irish government, this is a basic human right as I see it.

Of course it is.. It's my basic human right as an educated employed person to fund every lazy arsed Irish person who doesn't have the wit or will to find a job...

<cough> bollox.... grow up.. it's not your right to sit on your arse and do fk all and have everyone else pay more taxes for that.. this country has gone down the pan because of arseholes who believe everyone else is responsible for paying for their extravanagances.

If everyone took that stance, who would pay for it?

Welease

marti8 wrote: »

You know what, I think that last line just about sums you up.....:)

I have said from the begining that it is legally not possible to do what I am suggesting, as the law stands right now...that doesn't mean the law isn't wrong, I think it is wrong and I think government policy is wrong.

I was about to say you'd make a great politician with avoiding the question with that answer.. but in reality you make an irish politician...

how about answer the question?