Non-citizens getting the dole? Time to stop it?

Welease

marti8 wrote: »

Well, if you are talking about contravention of EU laws....just take a look a the Lisbon Treaty, we voted, we voted NO, that was not accepted by Brussels......hmmmm, isn't that in contravention of EU law? WE have been "told" that if we vote NO again that the EU will illegally move on without us....so sure lets talk about contravening EU law....

Irrelevant .. how do you implement the law without potentially removing EU funding?
You propose a change.. you provide the details...

marti8

Welease wrote: »

Of course it is.. It's my basic human right as an educated employed person to fund every lazy arsed Irish person who doesn't have the wit or will to find a job...

<cough> bollox.... grow up.. it's not your right to sit on your arse and do fk all and have everyone else pay more taxes for that.. this country has gone down the pan because of arseholes who believe everyone else is responsible for paying for their extravanagances.

If everyone took that stance, who would pay for it?

If everyone took what stance? That if they need it they will get social welfare, ohhhhh, yeah we'd have a crazy society then.....:rolleyes:

Ok, right now lets say there are 450,000 people unemployed, Irish and non-national...you say they are lazy and should get a job, is that correct? So, you are teling me that there are right now in this country 450,000 jobs available?

Welease

marti8 wrote: »

If everyone took what stance? That if they need it they will get social welfare, ohhhhh, yeah we'd have a crazy society then.....:rolleyes:

Ok, right now lets say there are 450,000 people unemployed, Irish and non-national...you say they are lazy and should get a job, is that correct? So, you are teling me that there are right now in this country 450,000 jobs available?

You do have a reading comprehension problem Where did i say that in any of my 20/30 or so previous posts?

OK let's take this slowly again

You are the one asking for a change in the law.. you are the one who wants to ban non-nationals...
When questioned on how this works.. you admit you don't have a plan (apart from it need to keep you and your non irish wife receiving benefits)

Apparently its your right to receive all those benefits for doing fk all... I contest that if it's your right to benefits then, it should be based on work ethic, which you disagreed with (cos you would be impacted)
Then it was to save money for Ireland PLC.. whereby i proposed if we cut benefits to all who's stamps ran out that would save more.. (but again that impacted your gravy train.)

that has nothing to do with whether there are 450K jobs available...

You still don't have a plan for how you would implement your change, and that is the crux of this discussion.. On any question of how it would work, you continually fail to provide any answers.. Is that because it's unworkable? (i hesitate to say dumb )

marti8

Welease wrote: »

Irrelevant .. how do you implement the law without potentially removing EU funding?
You propose a change.. you provide the details...

It is not as irrelevant as you think, the EU cannot say to us we are violating EU law if they are doing the very same, lol.....the simple fact is that our government does not have the balls to stand up to them , to stand up for Irish interests, to represent the people they were elected to represent. But we vote them in and we can vote them out.

I really wonder how much EU funding Ireland gets these days? From 2007 - 2013 Ireland will recieve €750.72 in EU funding. I wonder in the same period how much we will spend on non-nationals in Ireland by way of social welfare benefits and other issues such as schooling, health etc? That would be an interesting figure to know, given that there are now over 47,000 mainly east European nationals on the dole here these days.

marti8

Welease wrote: »

You do have a reading comprehension problem Where did i say that in any of my 20/30 or so previous posts?

OK let's take this slowly again

You are the one asking for a change in the law.. you are the one who wants to ban non-nationals...

When questioned on how this works.. you admit you don't have a plan (apart from it need to keep you and your non irish wish receiving benefits)

You have referred to lazy Irish people on the dole, so tell me whether you think the people on the dole can all get jobs these days? I am nt living in the past, as you seem to be, I am talking about the here and now.

And of course I want the best benefits I can get, just as you want the lowest wage payments you can get..........Why shouldn't I? Why shouldn't you? This is human nature, to want the best of whatever is on offer. I know sacrifices have to be made but manybe instead of slashing the under 20's dole by 50% and TD'S taking a paycut of 10% they should have reversed it.....now that would be what is called leading by example....I wonder if you have asked your employees to take a pay cut so you will have a greater profit?

Welease

marti8 wrote: »

It is not as irrelevant as you think, the EU cannot say to us we are violating EU law if they are doing the very same, lol.....the simple fact is that our government does not have the balls to stand up to them , to stand up for Irish interests, to represent the people they were elected to represent. But we vote them in and we can vote them out.

I really wonder how much EU funding Ireland gets these days? From 2007 - 2013 Ireland will recieve €750.72 in EU funding. I wonder in the same period how much we will spend on non-nationals in Ireland by way of social welfare benefits and other issues such as schooling, health etc? That would be an interesting figure to know, given that there are now over 47,000 mainly east European nationals on the dole here these days.

Yes.. and when our economy is collapsing, now is the time to challenge the organisation that funds our existance...... awesome plan....

Without being an arse about it... it's people like me who actually pay taxes that would have to fund your retarded plans.. and to be honest, i am getting bored of paying really really high taxes for fk all.
How about people STFU, work on being more employable than our European counterparts and be competitive on wages/costs/skills etc. Beat the competition rather than ostracising yourself for refusing to deal with them.

marti8

Welease wrote: »

You do have a reading comprehension problem Where did i say that in any of my 20/30 or so previous posts?

OK let's take this slowly again

You are the one asking for a change in the law.. you are the one who wants to ban non-nationals...
When questioned on how this works.. you admit you don't have a plan (apart from it need to keep you and your non irish wife receiving benefits)

Apparently its your right to receive all those benefits for doing fk all... I contest that if it's your right to benefits then, it should be based on work ethic, which you disagreed with (cos you would be impacted)
Then it was to save money for Ireland PLC.. whereby i proposed if we cut benefits to all who's stamps ran out that would save more.. (but again that impacted your gravy train.)

that has nothing to do with whether there are 450K jobs available...

You still don't have a plan for how you would implement your change, and that is the crux of this discussion.. On any question of how it would work, you continually fail to provide any answers.. Is that because it's unworkable? (i hesitate to say dumb )

You are the one not addressing the questions........you asked how could we implement such a plan without losing EU funds? I gave you the figures yet you fail to respond to that, it's ok, obviously you don't have a response.

And not it is not "dumb" to suggest that we have jobs for Irish people and different qualifying criteria for non-nationals when it comes to social welfare.

And lets turn the focus to your gravy train? What is you do? What business are you in? How many people do you employ? How much do you pay per hour? Have you asked your employees to take a pay cut, have you let go any of your employees? How much profit do you make per year? How much do you need to make per year to stay solvent? Can you make less profit and still stay solvent?

The right to social welfare should be based on nationality first and foremost. I have no problem with non-nationals recieving social welfare upto the ammount which they have contributed in taxes to the State. And I have never said I want to ban non-nationals, pay attention, I have said that jobs should go to Irish people first provided they have the skills and if they don't have the skills or an Irish person can't be found to do the job then fine, hire non-nationals.......I did say the words "hire non-nationals" maybe you were asleep for that part?

And as I have said before, repeatedly, I never said I "have a plan" as you put it. I am saying what I think, it is upto me to formulate governement policy but I can and have every right to suggest that the status quo is costing Ireland a lot of money and on that I am correct.

strathspey

This thread is hilarious. Have the hypocritical Irish forgotten that they were the biggest dole cheats in Britain during the 80's?

Welease

marti8 wrote: »

You have referred to lazy Irish people on the dole, so tell me whether you think the people on the dole can all get jobs these days? I am nt living in the past, as you seem to be, I am talking about the here and now.

And of course I want the best benefits I can get, just as you want the lowest wage payments you can get..........Why shouldn't I? Why shouldn't you? This is human nature, to want the best of whatever is on offer. I know sacrifices have to be made but manybe instead of slashing the under 20's dole by 50% and TD'S taking a paycut of 10% they should have reversed it.....now that would be what is called leading by example....I wonder if you have asked your employees to take a pay cut so you will have a greater profit?

Jeez. you are slow.. lets me use caps for emphasis ....
YOU ARE THE ONE PROPOSING CHANGE.. BACK IT UP WITH HOW IT WORKS..

So, dont use the save Ireland money, when you freely admit (finally) you want to cream the best benefits you can from the gravy train..
Bollox, is it human nature..
i pay in full and have never taken a penny i am due.. it is human nature to those who have become dependant on state handouts for their own failings. (as per the Polish examples of people who were due but didnt claim, and many many Irish exmaples of people who dont claim..)

You Sir, are a sponger and the perfect example of what is dragging this country down.. don't dare blame non nationals who worked their arses off in the boom time for this countries downfall... It's spongers like yourself who are ruining this country..

marti8

Welease wrote: »

Jeez. you are slow.. lets me use caps for emphasis ....
YOU ARE THE ONE PROPOSING CHANGE.. BACK IT UP WITH HOW IT WORKS..

So, dont use the save Ireland money, when you freely admit (finally) you want to cream the best benefits you can from the gravy train..
Bollox, is it human nature..
i pay in full and have never taken a penny i am due.. it is human nature to those who have become dependant on state handouts for their own failings. (as per the Polish examples of people who were due but didnt claim, and many many Irish exmaples of people who dont claim..)

You Sir, are a sponger and the perfect example of what is dragging this country down.. don't dare blame non nationals who worked their arses off in the boom time for this countries downfall... It's spongers like yourself who are ruining this country..

You pay what in full, the minimum wage which you are legally obliged to pay? And if you check you will see that several posts back, too many to count I said that of course I wanted the best I could get from social welfare......you think someone should want the worst or least they could get? Are you living in the real world?

If people don't want to claim social welfare that's for them to decide, they obviously want, choose, to live off their savings. But for those who want social welfare it is there for them and the majority of people are thankful for that.

And when you say "spongers like yourself" it makes me laugh....what exactly do you mean? You can't toss words out without clarifying them? Because I get social welfare I am a "sponger"? Huh, weird.

Welease

marti8 wrote: »

The right to social welfare should be based on nationality first and foremost. I have no problem with non-nationals recieving social welfare upto the ammount which they have contributed in taxes to the State. And I have never said I want to ban non-nationals, pay attention, I have said that jobs should go to Irish people first provided they have the skills and if they don't have the skills or an Irish person can't be found to do the job then fine, hire non-nationals.......I did say the words "hire non-nationals" maybe you were asleep for that part?

No, once again, i questioned you on how you implement a rule of nationals first.. 6 month tender? etc? and you admitted you no idea how it would work.. even asleep i can respond to your lack of a plan...

You ignored any proposal that impacted the fact the state bankrolls you for doing nothing...

Lets boil it down.. you (as you admitted) want to ensure you get the maximum benefit for yourself while not (currently) contributing to the exchequer... and you have an unworkable plan to achieve that...

aare

Have you guys no beds to go to?
:rolleyes:

Welease

marti8 wrote: »

You pay what in full, the minimum wage which you are legally obliged to pay? And if you check you will see that several posts back, too many to count I said that of course I wanted the best I could get from social welfare......you think someone should want the worst or least they could get? Are you living in the real world?

If people don't want to claim social welfare that's for them to decide, they obviously want, choose, to live off their savings. But for those who want social welfare it is there for them and the majority of people are thankful for that.

And when you say "spongers like yourself" it makes me laugh....what exactly do you mean? You can't toss words out without clarifying them? Because I get social welfare I am a "sponger"? Huh, weird.

No... apparently your whole arguement was based on lowering the social welfare bill for Ireland "BECAUSE OF MONEY WE DONT HAVE".. (and you started this thread)
up until the point it hits your lazy ass and non national wife pocket correct?

Scofflaw

marti8 wrote: »

Vell, virst ve get ze machine guns vit ze ammo zen ve find ze nice long. long vall and zen ve......:D

Listen, I don't know how it would work. I don't have a solution as to how we could implement such an idea, it is that, an idea. One I wish we could implement but as I have said before one which we may not be able to.

One thing I do know is that the EU does not, has not and will not respect it's own rules, legally binding rules. I am talking of the Lisbon Treaty which says it must be ratified in ALL member States to come into force. They didn't respect the will of the Irish people last year when we voted NO (neither did our so-called government) and it is most likely they will not respect the will of the Irish people should, and I hope we do, vote NO again (when we are forced in subversion of the democratic process to vote yet again)

If they don't respect EU law then why should we..............

I'm going to point out, for the nth time, that there is absolutely nothing whatsoever in the Treaty of Lisbon, in international law, or in EU law, that says that a refusal to ratify at the first try is something that kills a treaty.

If the government can get a Yes at a second referendum, then Ireland will have ratified within the two-year time frame allowed for ratification, and that ratification has exactly the same legal force as a ratification last year would have done. In those countries that use parliamentary ratification (that's everybody bar us, Denmark and France) they can hold a parliamentary vote every day for the two years, and if they finally ratified the treaty on December 31st 2009, the ratification would be just as legally valid as if they had done it on January 1st 2008.


regards,
Scofflaw

Welease

aare wrote: »

Have you guys no beds to go to?
:rolleyes:

If you ever played warhammer online and had 2 kids under 2 years.. trust me.. this is entertainment in the middle hours

marti8

Welease wrote: »

Jeez. you are slow.. lets me use caps for emphasis ....
YOU ARE THE ONE PROPOSING CHANGE.. BACK IT UP WITH HOW IT WORKS..

So, dont use the save Ireland money, when you freely admit (finally) you want to cream the best benefits you can from the gravy train..
Bollox, is it human nature..
i pay in full and have never taken a penny i am due.. it is human nature to those who have become dependant on state handouts for their own failings. (as per the Polish examples of people who were due but didnt claim, and many many Irish exmaples of people who dont claim..)

You Sir, are a sponger and the perfect example of what is dragging this country down.. don't dare blame non nationals who worked their arses off in the boom time for this countries downfall... It's spongers like yourself who are ruining this country..

I readily admit and have done so from the begining of this little thread that it may not be possible to stop non-nationals taking jobs in Ireland. But what is evidently possible is to change the eligability criteria for non-nationals claiming the dole. Right now it is set at 2 years working before the dole is available to non-nationals, well, very simply change the time scale.....easily done. Change it to 5 years, 6 years, 10 years....whatever. I don't believe the contravenes EU law and if it does please let me know. I don't see how it can as we already have a 2 year time scale in place for non-nationals which doesn't apply to Irish nationals (unless we are already breaking EU law?) :)It is not ideal but would be a good start.

castie

Seems to me that this whole topic is highlighting the point that social welfare payments in Ireland are quite high. I know of people that ge roughly 200 euro cash a week before any other allowances.

Maybe instead of risking the wrath of europe with drastic changes we should do the sensible thing and reduce the payment amount.

200 euro plus allowances makes for a nice weekly wage for doing nothing.

Welease

castie wrote: »

Seems to me that this whole topic is highlighting the point that social welfare payments in Ireland are quite high. I know of people that ge roughly 200 euro cash a week before any other allowances.

Maybe instead of risking the wrath of europe with drastic changes we should do the sensible thing and reduce the payment amount.

200 euro plus allowances makes for a nice weekly wage for doing nothing.

Obsolutely.. it has been proposed to the Op many times... but as that would hit him financially he ignored it..

If you dont want an influx of social welfare claimants in this country, then drop the payments.. problem solved.. (apart from those who want to cream the system and ban non nationals to take the focus of the high social welfare costs)

Welease

marti8 wrote: »

I readily admit and have done so from the begining of this little thread that it may not be possible to stop non-nationals taking jobs in Ireland. But what is evidently possible is to change the eligability criteria for non-nationals claiming the dole. Right now it is set at 2 years working before the dole is available to non-nationals, well, very simply change the time scale.....easily done. Change it to 5 years, 6 years, 10 years....whatever. I don't believe the contravenes EU law and if it does please let me know. I don't see how it can as we already have a 2 year time scale in place for non-nationals which doesn't apply to Irish nationals (unless we are already breaking EU law?) :)It is not ideal but would be a good start.

No.. a good start would be to drop dole levels... so we dont entice people to come here..

marti8

Scofflaw wrote: »

I'm going to point out, for the nth time, that there is absolutely nothing whatsoever in the Treaty of Lisbon, in international law, or in EU law, that says that a refusal to ratify at the first try is something that kills a treaty.

If the government can get a Yes at a second referendum, then Ireland will have ratified within the two-year time frame allowed for ratification, and that ratification has exactly the same legal force as a ratification last year would have done. In those countries that use parliamentary ratification (that's everybody bar us, Denmark and France) they can hold a parliamentary vote every day for the two years, and if they finally ratified the treaty on December 31st 2009, the ratification would be just as legally valid as if they had done it on January 1st 2008.


regards,
Scofflaw

And what if the government can't trick, I mean convince, the Irish people to vote YES? What then? Does the EU stand by the rule of law and the treaty falls or does the EU disregard EU law and carry on regardless.

If we are talking about legalities then that said if we vote NO again according to the rules the treaty falls. End of.

marti8

Welease wrote: »

No.. a good start would be to drop dole levels... so we dont entice people to come here..

No....a good start would be to change the eligability conditions for claiming dole for non-nationals....so we don't find ourselves in the position we are in now again....

As I said before the EU will give Ireland approx €750 million in grant aid over the years 2007 -2013....how much will the Irish State spend on foreign nationals over the same timeframe I wonder?.........

Welease

marti8 wrote: »

No....a good start would be to change the eligability conditions for claiming dole for non-nationals....so we don't find ourselves in the position we are in now again....

As I said before the EU will give Ireland approx €750 million in grant aid over the years 2007 -2013....how much will the Irish State spend on foreign nationals over the same timeframe I wonder?.........

No.. a good start would be to change dole levels to those of our competitors (or lower)...

If you can't agree with that, then you nullify any further arguement about solving Irelands issues.. simple as... You don't want a solution (because that one of the problems), you want a scapegoat.. and that is 100% different...

Edit lol .... So.. lets get a commitment on this.. is your arguement based on your definition of a 750M grant to Ireland from the EU and that costing less than the outoings to non nationals (non UK of course /boggle) until 2013?.....

marti8

castie wrote: »

Seems to me that this whole topic is highlighting the point that social welfare payments in Ireland are quite high. I know of people that ge roughly 200 euro cash a week before any other allowances.

Maybe instead of risking the wrath of europe with drastic changes we should do the sensible thing and reduce the payment amount.

200 euro plus allowances makes for a nice weekly wage for doing nothing.

The ammount of social welfare paid in Ireland is proportionate to the costs in Ireland. Ireland already has one of the highest gaps between rich and poor western Europe. Payments for the under 20's have already been cut by 50% from approx €200 to approx €100. The government might just about have gotten away with that, and it is a very unfair measure but should they try soemthing similar with other recipients of social welfare they won't get away so lightly. If they tried it, with hundreds of thousands unemployed there would, without doubt, be social disorder on a massive scale.

Now if prices fall, if the cost for goods and services falls then by all mean reduse social welfare proportionetly....however right nw, some things are staying the same, some are going up in price and some are falling in price.

marti8

Welease wrote: »

No.. a good start would be to change dole levels to those of our competitors (or lower)...

If you can't agree with that, then you nullify any further arguement about solving Irelands issues.. simple as... You don't want a solution (because that one of the problems), you want a scapegoat.. and that is 100% different...

No, you want a scapegoat and your scapegoat are social welfare recipients. Simple as.

Welease

marti8 wrote: »

The ammount of social welfare paid in Ireland is proportionate to the costs in Ireland. Ireland already has one of the highest gaps between rich and poor western Europe. Payments for the under 20's have already been cut by 50% from approx €200 to approx €100. The government might just about have gotten away with that, and it is a very unfair measure but should they try soemthing similar with other recipients of social welfare they won't get away so lightly. If they tried it, with hundreds of thousands unemployed there would, without doubt, be social disorder on a massive scale.

Now if prices fall, if the cost for goods and services falls then by all mean reduse social welfare proportionetly....however right nw, some things are staying the same, some are going up in price and some are falling in price.

OK, so it's nothing to do with saving the country money as you said, because the government plan did that..

marti8

aare wrote: »

Have you guys no beds to go to?
:rolleyes:

I'm on social welfare I can't afford a bed.....:)

marti8

Welease wrote: »

OK, so it's nothing to do with saving the country money as you said, because the government plan did that..

It is totally about saving the country money, as much as possible without degenerating into a American style social welfare "system" (if it can even be called that) The cutting of 50% in dole payments to the under 20's was a retrograde move. There ARE other ways to save the same ammount of money. I have outlined one, change the eligability criteria for non-nationals claiming social welfare.

The job of the State is to protect its citizens, it has failed to do so. It has put the interests of non-nationals above the interests and wellbeing of its own citizens and in my book that is a step too far.

Welease

marti8 wrote: »

No, you want a scapegoat and your scapegoat are social welfare recipients. Simple as.

oh lol.. your arguements get worse... you asked for a change and picked on non nationals..

I asked you to explain the plan.. you can't.. as i have stated many time I (unlike you) pay plenty loads of tax and am willing to fund a welfare state.. you don't contribute jack, but want to deny others for your own benefit (and you admitted it).. don't try and paint me as the villan...

once again, for the (lost count now), explain how we should implement your plan..

Scofflaw

strathspey wrote: »

This thread is hilarious. Have the hypocritical Irish forgotten that they were the biggest dole cheats in Britain during the 80's?

In a word, yes. To be fair, though, the people who are complaining are often younger, and have never personally taken either employment or welfare abroad.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Welease

marti8 wrote: »

It is totally about saving the country money, as much as possible without degenerating into a American style social welfare "system" (if it can even be called that) The cutting of 50% in dole payments to the under 20's was a retrograde move. There ARE other ways to save the same ammount of money. I have outlined one, change the eligability criteria for non-nationals claiming social welfare.

The job of the State is to protect its citizens, it has failed to do so. It has put the interests of non-nationals above the interests and wellbeing of its own citizens and in my book that is a step too far.

The job of the state is to protect its citizens.. you believe its by bankrolling lazy bastards, while those who actually contribute to society think its by proactively creating jobs...What does handing money to under 20's give us? What does pissing off the rest of Europe do to us? Can you even understand the difference?