Non-citizens getting the dole? Time to stop it?

Welease

Scofflaw wrote: »

In a word, yes. To be fair, though, the people who are complaining are often younger, and have never personally taken either employment or welfare abroad.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Well i belive the OP has taken the latter, but i refuse to belive he has ever encountered the former (either here or abroad)

Scofflaw

marti8 wrote: »

And what if the government can't trick, I mean convince, the Irish people to vote YES? What then? Does the EU stand by the rule of law and the treaty falls or does the EU disregard EU law and carry on regardless.

If we are talking about legalities then that said if we vote NO again according to the rules the treaty falls. End of.

No, the EU won't carry on with Lisbon if Ireland doesn't ratify, and a second Irish No would indeed mean that Ireland will not ratify, which would kill the Treaty. However, that isn't what you were claiming, was it?

regards,
Scofflaw

marti8

Welease wrote: »

oh lol.. your arguements get worse... you asked for a change and picked on non nationals..

I asked you to explain the plan.. you can't.. as i have stated many time I (unlike you) pay plenty loads of tax and am willing to fund a welfare state.. you don't contribute jack, but want to deny others for your own benefit (and you admitted it).. don't try and paint me as the villan...

once again, for the (lost count now), explain how we should implement your plan..

Have you been reading this thread at all? Wakey, wakey, I have explained how we can save money....READ THE ABOVE THREADS...or here let me make it easier for you: Instead of cutting the dole for the under 20's the government could have changed to eligability criteria for non-nationals claiming social welfare. Ok, now what is it that you don't understand about that?

It doesn't matter one iota how much tax you pay or don't pay....you totally miss the point....the social welfare system is there for people who need it, if you need it, you get it. Simple. Now what part of that don't you understand?

And yes of course I want as much money as I can get on social welfare, just as you want as much profit as you can make in your business. But it is upto the government, not me, to decide how much to give to social welfare recipients.....however if they try to do what they have done with the under 20's to the wider group who claim social welfare there will be very serious consequences, without doubt. There would be social disorder on a scale we have NEVER seen. Cuts need to be made, fine, so lead from the top down.......not the from ground up. TD's took a 10% paycut yet the under 20's took a 50% cut in social welfare. Reverse it and TD's will still have a comfortable life. This is just one of many examples I could mention.

marti8

Scofflaw wrote: »

No, the EU won't carry on with Lisbon if Ireland doesn't ratify, and a second Irish No would indeed mean that Ireland will not ratify, which would kill the Treaty. However, that isn't what you were claiming, was it?

regards,
Scofflaw

Good to hear! No, not exactly but more of a side issue, good to know nonetheless but we'll see what happens because there have been murmurs from Brussels that our tiny little populace will not be allowed to derail their grand design for Europe................

It was mentioned that it would be illegal under EU law for Ireland to not allow non-nationals from taking up employment in Ireland....and yes, of course it is illegal. However, I was hypothesising that in the event of the EU saying to Ireland "you voted No, we don't accept that, we are moving ahead with Lisbon" then they couldn't very well turn around to us and accuse us of acting illegally with regard to banning foreign workers. That's all.

marti8

Welease wrote: »

Well i belive the OP has taken the latter, but i refuse to belive he has ever encountered the former (either here or abroad)

Whether I have worked here or abraod or claimed social welfare here or abroad is totally irrelevant.....:pac: We are not discussing me, this thread isn't about me, lol.....but for your information I have worked both here and abroad and I have paid tax both here and abroad...as I did mention before....and no I have not claimed dole abroad but have done so here, as is my legitimate right as an Irish citizen.

You seem to be confused....:P Social welfare is not a luxury, it is a right.

Welease

marti8 wrote: »

Have you been reading this thread at all? Wakey, wakey, I have explained how we can save money....READ THE ABOVE THREADS...or here let me make it easier for you: Instead of cutting the dole for the under 20's the government could have changed to eligability criteria for non-nationals claiming social welfare. Ok, now what is it that you don't understand about that?

It doesn't matter one iota how much tax you pay or don't pay....you totally miss the point....the social welfare system is there for people who need it, if you need it, you get it. Simple. Now what part of that don't you understand?

And yes of course I want as much money as I can get on social welfare, just as you want as much profit as you can make in your business. But it is upto the government, not me, to decide how much to give to social welfare recipients.....however if they try to do what they have done with the under 20's to the wider group who cliam social welfare there will be very serious consequences, without doubt. There would be social disorder on a scale we have NEVER seen. Cuts need to be made, fine, so lead from the top down.......not the from ground up. TD's took a 10% paycut yet the under 20's took a 50% cut in social welfare. Reverse it and TD's will still have a comfortable life. This is just one of many examples I could mention.

Hold on.. So foreigners are ok now? it's the government we need to be going after?

Jeez man, be clear, I had a group with pitchforks heading towards polishtown, should i point them towards the Dail Eireann now?

OK seriously.. i understand every point you actually made.. and i actually responded to them, it's you who admitted you don;t know how it would actually work, and couldnt respond to my many questions.. remember? well of course you probably remember, but it drew attention to the fact you were milking the systems and therefore had no real plan on how to answer the dumb plan you suggest without impact you are your non national wife with a company still claiming benefits...
How about you stop claiming benefits and pay in, before telling everyone else who can and should be paid?

Give a question to the average Irish person.. would you rather pay higher than the standard EU benefits to.

1) an eastern EU person, who is universally acknowledged as working their asses off in underpaid jobs... or
2) student in another country with online company claiming benefits with non national wife who want to stop dole payments to non nationals (excluding himself and family)...

What do you think they vote would be? as you keep claiming the moral majority on this lol...............

Welease

marti8 wrote: »

You seem to be confused....:P Social welfare is not a luxury, it is a right.

Actually you might find in the next few years.. its a luxury not a right.. but then as has become apparent, you didnt live through the 80's, you lived through the easy boom years and think you know it all lol...
I'd hate to be in your lazy asses shoes when that happens....
Those of us, who can survive without handouts will do fine... those of us who can't deal with life without others propping us up.. well....

But hey, your all about saving money we don't have... so you'll be ok with that ... LOL

marti8

Welease wrote: »

Hold on.. So foreigners are ok now? it's the government we need to be going after?

Jeez man, be clear, I had a group with pitchforks heading towards polishtown, should i point them towards the Dail Eireann now?

OK seriously.. i understand every point you actually made.. and i actually responded to them, it's you who admitted you don;t know how it would actually work, and couldnt respond to my many questions.. remember? well of course you probably remember, but it drew attention to the fact you were milking the systems and therefore had no real plan on how to answer the dumb plan you suggest without impact you are your non national wife with a company still claiming benefits...
How about you stop claiming benefits and pay in, before telling everyone else who can and should be paid?

Give a question to the average Irish person.. would you rather pay higher than the standard EU benefits to.

1) an eastern EU person, who is universally acknowledged as working their asses off in underpaid jobs... or
2) student in another country with online company claiming benefits with non national wife who want to stop dole payments to non nationals (excluding himself and family)...

What do you think they vote would be? as you keep claiming the moral majority on this lol...............

Here I'll give you another question you could ask while your'e at it (in fact a referendum would be even better) :

Would you support tightening the social welfare system to make it harder for non-nationals to claim social welfare?

What do you think the response would be?

Oh yeah, and you think I am in another country? Well, if Cork is another country then yes, I am!....lol Are you sure youre reading the same posts that I'm posting...lol

Also our online business is what is called a "hobby" business, i.e: we do it more out of enjoyment than to make a profit although we do make a very, very modest profit. A profit which actually wouldn't even have a bearing on the rate of social welfare we get. Come to think of it, you said you are a higher earner, why not also ask the people if they think you should even pay a higher rate of tax than you are paying already?.......:)

And if you read what I posted you will see that I repeatedly said foreigners were not to blame for the current situation, that the government was to blame (you can read can't you?.....if you don't play nice neither will I)

And no you didn't respond to the questions I asked you, simply scroll back and you'll see.....to be honest I couldn't be bothered writing them out again for you.....lol :P

And you refer to "standard" EU benefits... what are you talking about? WHAT STANDARD? Swedish or Slovakian?....lol....oh, you don't have a clue.

And finally, your mantra about "spongers", I asked you to explain exactly, as in exactly...lol, what you mean....define a "sponger".....so far you have been unable to do so. Oh, and I wonder whether you employ as you put it "an eastern European.....working their ass off in an underpaid job".....and if you do, hey, why don't YOU pay them more?..............:)

marti8

Welease wrote: »

Actually you might find in the next few years.. its a luxury not a right.. but then as has become apparent, you didnt live through the 80's, you lived through the easy boom years and think you know it all lol...
I'd hate to be in your lazy asses shoes when that happens....
Those of us, who can survive without handouts will do fine... those of us who can't deal with life without others propping us up.. well....

But hey, your all about saving money we don't have... so you'll be ok with that ... LOL

Oh no, social welfare will trust me continue to be a right, why? Because that is what the majority support, now and will in the future because if they ever need it it's there for them. You obviously have an "everyone for themselves" view......ever think of emigrating, you'd love America......:).....hey, I'll even chip in some of my social welfare money for your ticket! You seriously think in a society where there is no social welfare safety net that the better off would be safe...lmao...all I can say is if that is the country you envisage you better learn to shoot! :eek:

professore

marti8 wrote: »

I recall when the "new" eastern states joined the EU, I was delighted, I thought it was great...but the more I think on it the more negative effects I see from that. We didn't need eastern Europe, eastern Europe needed us. And that is a plain, cold, hard fact. Yes, we needed workers from outside Ireland, even from outside the EU as it was pre-enlargement but these workers could have come here on tempoary green cards but our government didn't opt for that.

The exact same argument applied to Ireland when we joined the EU. And I bet you voted no to Lisbon as well.

marti8

professore wrote: »

The exact same argument applied to Ireland when we joined the EU. And I bet you voted no to Lisbon as well.

Yep, voted NO to Lisbon and glad I did! Will vote NO next time too, as we are going to be forced to have another referendum, in fact I'll be actively campaigning.

And how many hundreds of thousands of Irish people flooded to the then EEC States? Now compare that to the situation Ireland is now in.....Remember back then there was already free movement of people between the UK and Ireland, so the UK doesn't count.....You cannot compare Ireland entering the EEC in the 70's and the majority eastern European countries which entered the EU in 2004, as we have seen both situations are very different.

professore

marti8 wrote: »

Oh no, social welfare will trust me continue to be a right, why? Because that is what the majority support, now and will in the future because if they ever need it it's there for them.

I support having a salary of € 100 K p.a. Doesn't mean it will happen. Social welfare will be cut drastically in December's budget. The alternative is reforming the public sector and that ain't gonna happen. The country is seriously broke. We can't change the welfare entitlements of EU non-nationals as you call them (hate that expression) without leaving the EU so your thread is pointless unless you want us to leave the EU.

professore

marti8 wrote: »

Yep, voted NO to Lisbon and glad I did! Will vote NO next time too, as we are going to be forced to have another referendum, in fact I'll be actively campaigning.

And how many hundreds of thousands of Irish people flooded to the then EEC States? Now compare that to the situation Ireland is now in.....Remember back then there was already free movement of people between the UK and Ireland, so the UK doesn't count.....You cannot compare Ireland entering the EEC in the 70's and the majority eastern European countries which entered the EU in 2004, as we have seen both situations are very different.

Not many since all except UK Sweden and ourselves imposed a delay on implementing the free movement of people. Since many have since lifted it and with the collapse of our so-called economy based on selling houses to each other a lot of the Eastern Europeans have already gone home.

marti8

professore wrote: »

I support having a salary of € 100 K p.a. Doesn't mean it will happen. Social welfare will be cut drastically in December's budget. The alternative is reforming the public sector and that ain't gonna happen. The country is seriously broke. We can't change the welfare entitlements of EU non-nationals as you call them (hate that expression) without leaving the EU so your thread is pointless unless you want us to leave the EU.

Well, if social welfare is cut "drastically" come next December you will without doubt see huge, and I don't exaggerate, huge social chaos. Probably the likes of which we have never witnessed.

If money needs to be saved and of course it does then they, the government, can start at the top and work their way down, not vice versa. And should they not want to do that and should they target the most vulnerable in society there will be a backlash, a very violent backlash.

A cut in social welfare is probably coming, it is how much of a cut is the question. How much of a paycut did the TD's give themselves, 10% wasn't it.....from an already generous salary....as I said start from the top down, lead by example otherwise there will be serious trouble.

marti8

professore wrote: »

Not many since all except UK Sweden and ourselves imposed a delay on implementing the free movement of people. Since many have since lifted it and with the collapse of our so-called economy based on selling houses to each other a lot of the Eastern Europeans have already gone home.

"A lot" of the eastern Europeans have already gone home? There are over 43,000 east Europeans on the live register. I don't have figures for how many are in employment.

professore

marti8 wrote: »

Well, if social welfare is cut "drastically" come next December you will without doubt see huge, and I don't exaggerate, huge social chaos. Probably the likes of which we have never witnessed.

I hope there will be but not so sure, there hasn't been much backlash yet from the under 20s cut. People are down 6%+ on take home pay because of the Government. The biggest backlash was the over 70's medical card, for people over 70 earning more than € 700 per week !!!! Shows you the difference - the pension will be the last to be cut.

marti8 wrote: »

If money needs to be saved and of course it does then they, the government, can start at the top and work their way down, not vice versa. And should they not want to do that and should they target the most vulnerable in society there will be a backlash, a very violent backlash.

Since when have they ever done what they should do ? Why should they start now? At the end of the day they don't give a f**k about what's good for the country. It's all mé féin. We're in this mess because of non existent regulation and huge tax incentives to keep building during a huge property boom.

marti8 wrote: »

A cut in social welfare is probably coming, it is how much of a cut is the question. How much of a paycut did the TD's give themselves, 10% wasn't it.....from an already generous salary....as I said start from the top down, lead by example otherwise there will be serious trouble.

Getting back on topic, I agree with your sentiment to a certain extent, in that we should look after our own people first, BUT we are in the EU and have obligations based on that, and also other EU countries have obligations to our citizens living there. We still get far more from the EU than we give, even now when we are one of the richest countries.

http://www.finfacts.com/comment/irelandeunetreceiptsbenefits.htm (2003 figures can't find anything more recent).

professore

marti8 wrote: »

"A lot" of the eastern Europeans have already gone home? There are over 47,000 east Europeans on the live register. I don't have figures for how many are in employment.

Source ?

marti8

professore wrote: »

Source ?

http://www.cso.ie/releasespublications/documents/labour_market/current/lregeo.pdf

These are March 2009 figures

Apologies, the figure is: 43,559.

professore

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/foreign-workers-worsthit-as-jobless-rate-soars-1664607.html

Nearly 60pc, or 41,000, of non-national workers on the Live Register come from the recent EU accession states in Eastern Europe, while 15,700 come from Britain, 4,000 came from the old EU states on the Continent and 11,000 were from outside Europe, the CSO figures reveal.

Total unemployment in March was 371271. So that means roughly 11% of people on unemployment benefit are eastern european (despite all the misleading percentages in the article, typical of the crap Indo). This is good news, as they will only be on it for 12 months after which time they will be ineligible. So we should see a fall off in the live register in the coming months (assuming things don't get any worse )

marti8

professore wrote: »

I hope there will be but not so sure, there hasn't been much backlash yet from the under 20s cut. People are down 6%+ on take home pay because of the Government. The biggest backlash was the over 70's medical card, for people over 70 earning more than € 700 per week !!!! Shows you the difference - the pension will be the last to be cut.



Since when have they ever done what they should do ? Why should they start now? At the end of the day they don't give a f**k about what's good for the country. It's all mé féin. We're in this mess because of non existent regulation and huge tax incentives to keep building during a huge property boom.



Getting back on topic, I agree with your sentiment to a certain extent, in that we should look after our own people first, BUT we are in the EU and have obligations based on that, and also other EU countries have obligations to our citizens living there. We still get far more from the EU than we give, even now when we are one of the richest countries.

http://www.finfacts.com/comment/irelandeunetreceiptsbenefits.htm (2003 figures can't find anything more recent).

Yes, we are in the EU alright, lol.....and actually I'm pro-EU but for a democratic, accountable EU. I know it is unrealisitc to try to ensure Irish people get jobs above other EU nationals, I just wanted to play with the idea of it. But what is not unrealistic is for the government, the sorry excuse for one that we have, to change the eligability criteria for other EU nationals in claiming social welfare, this could be done quite easily and would not contravene EU law as we already have a 2 year work period in place before they can claim social welfare.

So, if we can have 2 years, why not 5 or 6 or 7 or 10.....it doesn't solve the problem but it does move us in the right direction.

What they did to the under 20's is disgraceful. I can't believe it. But the under 20's are by and large living at home, somewhat sheltered from the cut but it is still unjustified. Under 20's are more unorganised, relatively small in number compared to the general number of social welfare recipients. Should the government try the same move with the majority or even a large minority of social welfare recipients, there will be trouble. I have no doubt about that.

The pensioners in my opinion don't need medical cards if they are getting over €700 a week, that is crazy. But they marched.....people will do more than march if the government go after social welfare in a big way. The image of petrol bombs illuminating the night sky comes to mind. There would be absolute chaos, they really do need to bear that in mind.

marti8

professore wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/foreign-workers-worsthit-as-jobless-rate-soars-1664607.html

Nearly 60pc, or 41,000, of non-national workers on the Live Register come from the recent EU accession states in Eastern Europe, while 15,700 come from Britain, 4,000 came from the old EU states on the Continent and 11,000 were from outside Europe, the CSO figures reveal.

Total unemployment in March was 371271. So that means roughly 11% of people on unemployment benefit are eastern european (despite all the misleading percentages in the article, typical of the crap Indo). This is good news, as they will only be on it for 12 months after which time they will be ineligible. So we should see a fall off in the live register in the coming months (assuming things don't get any worse )

Foreign workers are ineligible for social welfare after 12 months? I hadn't heard this before? And I think the economy is going to get much worse, we haven't hit the bottom yet and it will be years and years before we pull ourselves out of it. Yes, I am a bearer of glad tidings!....lol

ShiverinEskimo

I've just read this thread from start to finish and cannot believe what I'm reading.

For years Irish people were quite happy to take their cushy jobs and leave their low-end jobs to foreign nationals, whom I might add were paid inferior wages to their Irish counterparts (including in some cases sub-minimum wage levels).

Suddenly the rich bankers, accountants, architects, etc. are losing their jobs and now you think we should kick out the foreign nationals and hand the jobs back to the greedy paddies?

Can you not remember the outrage felt by our nations emmigrants when the sign "Irish need not apply" popped up across the UK for rental accomodation and job applications?

I'm delighted for the foreign nationals who came here willing to work the low-end jobs with bad hours so they can serve burgers to drunken abusive irish people falling out pubs at 3am. They were doing the jobs we didn't want in the good times so for anyone to say they should not be working jobs when there are Irish unemployed, I say cop on and stop being to selfish.

As has been mentioned quite a few times already on this thread I worry more for the Irish people who have been on the dole for countless years who show up stinking of drink one a month to claim their benfits and complain when they queue past the pub opening time.

They are the rot that is holding this country back - not the people who came here willing to work and contribute and who have hit a stumbling block in the process - Ireland should treasure these people so willing to work - they are ten times the citizens the Irish spongers will ever be.

As as for your points in relation to halving the dole for under twenties - the only people who should be worried about that is the Vinters Association of Ireland.

It is so sickening to think that the attitude shown to Irish for so many years in so many countries is beginning to manifest itself now when the tides have turned. Instead of acknowledging how the Irish were treated in the past as foreign nationals abroad and learning from it - we seem to have joined the elitist club now and are happy to refuse entry to the countries who were queuing just behind us.

ionix5891

marti8 wrote: »

Yes, we are in the EU alright, lol.....and actually I'm pro-EU but for a democratic, accountable EU. I know it is unrealisitc to try to ensure Irish people get jobs above other EU nationals, I just wanted to play with the idea of it. But what is not unrealistic is for the government, the sorry excuse for one that we have, to change the eligability criteria for other EU nationals in claiming social welfare, this could be done quite easily and would not contravene EU law as we already have a 2 year work period in place before they can claim social welfare.

So, if we can have 2 years, why not 5 or 6 or 7 or 10.....it doesn't solve the problem but it does move us in the right direction.

What they did to the under 20's is disgraceful. I can't believe it. But the under 20's are by and large living at home, somewhat sheltered from the cut but it is still unjustified. Under 20's are more unorganised, relatively small in number compared to the general number of social welfare recipients. Should the government try the same move with the majority or even a large minority of social welfare recipients, there will be trouble. I have no doubt about that.

The pensioners in my opinion don't need medical cards if they are getting over €700 a week, that is crazy. But they marched.....people will do more than march if the government go after social welfare in a big way. The image of petrol bombs illuminating the night sky comes to mind. There would be absolute chaos, they really do need to bear that in mind.

You keep referring to the EU as "they" the big bad man thats out to get Ireland

in this thread you have shown a very shallow understanding of economics, politics and life in general

You keep trying to drag the Lisbon Treaty into this (somehow) making the union we entered and "milked" so much out of to be the devil himself

There are several posts in this thread where myself and others have exposed YOU for being the hypocrite you are

Few people here pointed out that they would gladly have the dole scrapped or lowered to the EU level (or even the NI level) for everyone

You continue using words such as "democracy" and "fairness" while you advocate the opposite

I sure hope you read a few books on history and economy, it would open your eyes (thats if you decide to open up your closed little mind)

I don't know so far its about 3 dozen people vs you in this thread, im surprised that you haven't got the message yet


anyways I need to get back to work (yes i work weekends too) so i can continue paying taxes to feed smucks like you

ejmaztec

ionix5891 wrote: »

You keep referring to the EU as "they" the big bad man thats out to get Ireland

in this thread you have shown a very shallow understanding of economics, politics and life in general

You keep trying to drag the Lisbon Treaty into this (somehow) making the union we entered and "milked" so much out of to be the devil himself

There are several posts in this thread where myself and others have exposed YOU for being the hypocrite you are

Few people here pointed out that they would gladly have the dole scrapped or lowered to the EU level (or even the NI level) for everyone

You continue using words such as "democracy" and "fairness" while you advocate the opposite

I sure hope you read a few books on history and economy, it would open your eyes (thats if you decide to open up your closed little mind)

I don't know so far its about 3 dozen people vs you in this thread, im surprised that you haven't got the message yet


anyways I need to get back to work (yes i work weekends too) so i can continue paying taxes to feed smucks like you

We could all chip in and pay for a one-way ticket to Rockall.:pac:

Zeppi

professore wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/foreign-workers-worsthit-as-jobless-rate-soars-1664607.html

This is good news, as they will only be on it for 12 months after which time they will be ineligible. So we should see a fall off in the live register in the coming months (assuming things don't get any worse )

Can you explain what you meant by saying "This is good news, as they will only be on it for 12 months after which time they will be ineligible."

Zeppi

stevelknievel

marti8 wrote: »

You keep with this ridiculous mantra of drop the dole levels to the rest of the EU? What on earth are you talking about, you really do need to think through your case before stating it, what levels? German, Swedish, Danish, Dutch, Austrian, Finnish, French, Belgian, Luxembourger.......or maybe you are thinking more along the lines of Slovakia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland........There is NO European level, there are European LEVELS, different in each State.

Of course there is a European level. You just get the average amount. Basic maths. Not that hard.

marti8 wrote: »

You have referred to lazy Irish people on the dole, so tell me whether you think the people on the dole can all get jobs these days? I am nt living in the past, as you seem to be, I am talking about the here and now.

And of course I want the best benefits I can get, just as you want the lowest wage payments you can get..........Why shouldn't I? Why shouldn't you? This is human nature, to want the best of whatever is on offer. I know sacrifices have to be made but manybe instead of slashing the under 20's dole by 50% and TD'S taking a paycut of 10% they should have reversed it.....now that would be what is called leading by example....I wonder if you have asked your employees to take a pay cut so you will have a greater profit?

By lazy Irish people he means people who have been claiming in the past when it was good as well as now when it's bad. He means the people who don't want to find work and are happy to abuse the system for their own personal gains.
This is not human nature. When I was out of work I never looked for the medical card, and it took me 6 months to seek rent allowance. I couldn't afford nights out, CD's etc on this, but I only looked for the rent when food was becoming an issue. Not everyone is as selfish as you are.

marti8 wrote: »

It doesn't matter one iota how much tax you pay or don't pay....you totally miss the point....the social welfare system is there for people who need it, if you need it, you get it. Simple. Now what part of that don't you understand?

Does this not just completely destroy you're entire argument up until now?

marti8 wrote: »

Also our online business is what is called a "hobby" business, i.e: we do it more out of enjoyment than to make a profit although we do make a very, very modest profit. A profit which actually wouldn't even have a bearing on the rate of social welfare we get. Come to think of it, you said you are a higher earner, why not also ask the people if they think you should even pay a higher rate of tax than you are paying already?.......:)

I am shocked to hear you already have a source of income. I shouldn't be. Your support for the long term spongers should have rang bells. Your desire to pick on 'the furrners takin our jawbs' should have made me realise. If you are so worried about the nations coffers why are you claiming when you have a source of income. Is the social department aware of this? You say you're not making a lot of money. If you're not making enough money out of it, then get off boards, stop bitching about everyone else, and work harder at your company. Earn your own f**king living, so that we dont have to. What's the view like from up there on your high horse? Talking about how the Government should 'lead by example' and not pick on the 'most vulnerable'. What about the example you’re setting. Screw everyone else so long as I'm alright. And surely the most vulnerable are the people without another source of income!! You feel you should claim even though you have money coming in, but someone who has worked their ass off should f**k off back where they came from because... and here's the funny part... they are costing the state money? Grow up. Get a life, or better still a job. I'm not going to waste any more time on you. You're already wasting my money...

marti8

ShiverinEskimo wrote: »

I've just read this thread from start to finish and cannot believe what I'm reading.

For years Irish people were quite happy to take their cushy jobs and leave their low-end jobs to foreign nationals, whom I might add were paid inferior wages to their Irish counterparts (including in some cases sub-minimum wage levels).

Suddenly the rich bankers, accountants, architects, etc. are losing their jobs and now you think we should kick out the foreign nationals and hand the jobs back to the greedy paddies?

Can you not remember the outrage felt by our nations emmigrants when the sign "Irish need not apply" popped up across the UK for rental accomodation and job applications?

I'm delighted for the foreign nationals who came here willing to work the low-end jobs with bad hours so they can serve burgers to drunken abusive irish people falling out pubs at 3am. They were doing the jobs we didn't want in the good times so for anyone to say they should not be working jobs when there are Irish unemployed, I say cop on and stop being to selfish.

As has been mentioned quite a few times already on this thread I worry more for the Irish people who have been on the dole for countless years who show up stinking of drink one a month to claim their benfits and complain when they queue past the pub opening time.

They are the rot that is holding this country back - not the people who came here willing to work and contribute and who have hit a stumbling block in the process - Ireland should treasure these people so willing to work - they are ten times the citizens the Irish spongers will ever be.

As as for your points in relation to halving the dole for under twenties - the only people who should be worried about that is the Vinters Association of Ireland.

It is so sickening to think that the attitude shown to Irish for so many years in so many countries is beginning to manifest itself now when the tides have turned. Instead of acknowledging how the Irish were treated in the past as foreign nationals abroad and learning from it - we seem to have joined the elitist club now and are happy to refuse entry to the countries who were queuing just behind us.

Firstly, you are as much entitled to your opinion as I am to mine. You seem to forget or want to forget that we live in a democracy.....And now to address the points you raised......

Yes, absolutely, for years Irish people did have a "holier than thou" attitude when it came to taking lower paid, more menial jobs. I have never said otherwise! But you forget that I am not talking about the PAST, I am talking about today, where we go today, what we do today.....not the "oh, if only...." yesterdays.....I am being 100% realistic and practical and thinking what is best for Ireland and Irish people.

I have said I have no problem with non-nationals getting social welfare upto the ammount of tax which they have contributed into the Irish coffers. And would I personally rather see an Irish person get a job before a non-national, yes of course I would and make absolutely no apologises for believing that.That does not make me anti-foreigner, it makes me pro-Irish. If there are not enough Irish people with the proper skills or an employer cannot find an Irish to do the job then fine offer the job to a non-national but first and foremost in Ireland Irish people should come first. Just as in Poland Poles should come first etc etc.

Yes, no doubt there are irish people on the dole who do not genuinely look for work, of course there are, we all know this myself included. But that is a problem with the system, perhaps if there was adequate measures in place to ensure Irish people were out looking, were for example reporting monthly on what job efforts they had made we wouldn't have such a problem, this is a problem with governmental policy, with departmental inaction........if you hand out "free" money to folks don't then be surprised or shocked when they take it. You try to tar an entire group, long term unempoyed, with the same brush - now that it bias, that is unreasonable and unfair. In fact it is ignornat.

Again, you are shown in the ignornat light you should be, you make the wild assumption that all under 20's spend all or most of their dole money on alcohol......where do you get your facts and figures from? Back it up. Don't just say something and be unable to back it up. So, an under 20 who has been working since the age of oh lets say, 18, and who has been laid off and who now seeks a dole payment is going to spend his dole on alcohol.....your pathetic argument doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Again, you seek to generalise, is it that you are unable or unwilling to actually look at the facts?

ShiverinEskimo

If I continue to read your posts I will get far too angry. Your view is one of the most ill-informed, narrow-minded, selfish views I have ever seen on this site. It's infuriatingly backward.

You are married to a non-national yet here you are saying we should kick hard-working, guests to the kerb and force them out of our country.

Wave your non-Xenophobic banner all you like but when you advocate reserving jobs for Irish only and forgoing payment of social welfare to non-nationals there really is no argument at all - you are a biggoted xenophobe with no regard to the bigger picture.

It's about time we forgot about Ireland and started worrying about Europe because there's no way we'll get out of this mess without outside help.

marti8

ionix5891 wrote: »

You keep referring to the EU as "they" the big bad man thats out to get Ireland

in this thread you have shown a very shallow understanding of economics, politics and life in general

You keep trying to drag the Lisbon Treaty into this (somehow) making the union we entered and "milked" so much out of to be the devil himself

There are several posts in this thread where myself and others have exposed YOU for being the hypocrite you are

Few people here pointed out that they would gladly have the dole scrapped or lowered to the EU level (or even the NI level) for everyone

You continue using words such as "democracy" and "fairness" while you advocate the opposite

I sure hope you read a few books on history and economy, it would open your eyes (thats if you decide to open up your closed little mind)

I don't know so far its about 3 dozen people vs you in this thread, im surprised that you haven't got the message yet


anyways I need to get back to work (yes i work weekends too) so i can continue paying taxes to feed smucks like you

Yes, I sometimes refer to the EU as "they" as is quite normal in the English language......lol And no I have never said I see the EU as what did you call it (oh, is it ok to say "it" or would you like me to say "the EU" ?...lol) "the big bad man"........I have said I am pro-EU, as I am, as most Irish people are. That doesn't mean that I think everything the EU does is good, the EU is very obviously lacking democracy and transparency.

Because I don't share yur world view doesn't mean that I don't understand politics, economics or as you suggested "life in general".......But maybe that is the best argument you can come up with?......:)

In relation to the Lisbon Treaty, I as you said "drag" that into this little thread because it has been mentioned, correctly so, that it would be a violation of EU law to discriminate aginst other EU nationals in the workplace. yes, I have always said it would be breaking EU law. What I am adding to that is that the EU doesn't seem to care much abut EU law (last year for example, the European Parliament voted NOT to accept the democratic will of the irish people if we voted NO and rejected the treaty) Also there have been murmurs from Brussels that if we vote NO again that the rest of the EU will move on with Lisbon but without Ireland.........now the point I was making is that should they do that, in violation of EU law - which says that EVERY member State must ratify Lisbon or it falls - then "they" aka: the EU, cannot attack us saying we are breaking EU law by discriminating against other EU nationals in the workplace. It would be rather hypocritical don't you think. But that is a big what if, maybe, we'll see kinda possibility.

LMAO, oh wow, 3 dozen people don't agree with me....well, I MUST be wrong then, LMAO......:P As I said before simply because some people on a forum don't agree with what I have to say doesn't really mean much, other than they don't agree with what I say...lol So what? Agree, disagree...whatever. I'll ask you one simple question, you put a referendum to the people (not to boards.ie,lol.....which I hasten to add is a pretty good forum) but you put a referendum to the Irish people with the simple question:

Do you support tightening the rules in realtion to non-nationals claiming social welfare?

What do you think the response would be?.............So, whether folks on boards.ie agree with me or not is irrelevant

Dyr

ShiverinEskimo wrote: »

It's about time we forgot about Ireland and started worrying about Europe because there's no way we'll get out of this mess without outside help.

"Forget about Ireland" says it all really. Screw that, it's time we started putting the interests of the citizens of this country first.

Other europeans must think we're chumps, you think they're putting europes' best interests before their own? Dream on, the euro is set to suit germany and france' needs not ours. They'll let us got to the wall to save themselves.