Non-citizens getting the dole? Time to stop it?

marti8

ShiverinEskimo wrote: »

If I continue to read your posts I will get far too angry. Your view is one of the most ill-informed, narrow-minded, selfish views I have ever seen on this site. It's infuriatingly backward.

You are married to a non-national yet here you are saying we should kick hard-working, guests to the kerb and force them out of our country.

Wave your non-Xenophobic banner all you like but when you advocate reserving jobs for Irish only and forgoing payment of social welfare to non-nationals there really is no argument at all - you are a biggoted xenophobe with no regard to the bigger picture.

It's about time we forgot about Ireland and started worrying about Europe because there's no way we'll get out of this mess without outside help.

You can read can't you? I have repeatedly said that foreign nationals who have paid tax should, SHOULD, recieve social welfare upto the ammount of tax they have paid initially? I also said that should no suitable Irish person be found for a job that by all means offer the job to a foreigner, no problem. So, no I have never said "kick hard working guests to the kerb and force them out of the country...".

And the xenophobe line is SO old......check the meaning of the word in the dictionary,pal. Xenophobes tend (for some silly reason :rolleyes:) to fear foreigners, they tend not to marry them.....Instead of attacking me why don't you respond to the questions I put to you? Is it that you can't defend your generalisations? You my friend are the bigot.

marti8

stevelknievel wrote: »

Of course there is a European level. You just get the average amount. Basic maths. Not that hard.



By lazy Irish people he means people who have been claiming in the past when it was good as well as now when it's bad. He means the people who don't want to find work and are happy to abuse the system for their own personal gains.
This is not human nature. When I was out of work I never looked for the medical card, and it took me 6 months to seek rent allowance. I couldn't afford nights out, CD's etc on this, but I only looked for the rent when food was becoming an issue. Not everyone is as selfish as you are.



Does this not just completely destroy you're entire argument up until now?



I am shocked to hear you already have a source of income. I shouldn't be. Your support for the long term spongers should have rang bells. Your desire to pick on 'the furrners takin our jawbs' should have made me realise. If you are so worried about the nations coffers why are you claiming when you have a source of income. Is the social department aware of this? You say you're not making a lot of money. If you're not making enough money out of it, then get off boards, stop bitching about everyone else, and work harder at your company. Earn your own f**king living, so that we dont have to. What's the view like from up there on your high horse? Talking about how the Government should 'lead by example' and not pick on the 'most vulnerable'. What about the example you’re setting. Screw everyone else so long as I'm alright. And surely the most vulnerable are the people without another source of income!! You feel you should claim even though you have money coming in, but someone who has worked their ass off should f**k off back where they came from because... and here's the funny part... they are costing the state money? Grow up. Get a life, or better still a job. I'm not going to waste any more time on you. You're already wasting my money...

Fistly, it makes absolutely no sense to reduce Irish social welfare to what you call a "European standard" Are good and services, food, utilities etc etc at a "European average" in this country?...tell you what, you go away do the math, it's basic math as you said, and then come back, ok?

Listen, if you choose not to claim social welfare that is your choice but don't try to force your choices on other people. Social welfare is the safety net, without it or with one that is very basic we would have huge social problems, the social problems we already have today would pale and shrivle in comparison, then you WOULD have real reason to complain.

When I talk of the social welfare net being there for people who need it I am obviously referring to Irish citizens and EU nationals who have paid tax, maybe you simply haven't been following this thread?

And no, the "source of income" you refer to is as I have said a "hobby" business which brings in the ammount under the threshold which is allowed for my social welfare payment, in fact when I say we make a very modest profit it means just that. I am not talking about thousands of euro's here....lol This is a "hobby" business....lol And no, social welfare don't need to be informed about such sums.

"Get off boards....", why should I? Because you don't agree with what I am saying, talk about ignorant. Listen, you obviously have quite a low intelligence level if you believe boards.ie is simply for you and people who think the same way you do. I wouldn't for a second even suggest that "you get off boards" but then I think things through, unlike you obviously.

strathspey

Have the hypocritical Irish forgotten that they were the biggest dole cheats in Britain during the 80's?

marti8

strathspey wrote: »

Have the hypocritical Irish forgotten that they were the biggest dole cheats in Britain during the 80's?

Really? What evidence do you have for this? I would have thought that there would have been more British citizens, given the numbers of Irish nationals verses British nationals "cheating" the UK welfare system in the 80's or at any other time? Think before you post...

But this thread isn't actually about social welfare fraud, read the topic.

menoscemo

If I hear you saying 'up to the amount of tax they have paid into Irish coffers' again I will go mad.
What do you mean, Income tax I presume? You do realise our beloved Eastern Europeans pay VAT on goods and services, surely this should be included in how much welfare they could claim. But how would you calculate it?

marti8

menoscemo wrote: »

If I hear you saying 'up to the amount of tax they have paid into Irish coffers' again I will go mad.
What do you mean, Income tax I presume? You do realise our beloved Eastern Europeans pay VAT on goods and services, surely this should be included in how much welfare they could claim. But how would you calculate it?

"Upto the ammount of tax they have paid into the Irish coffers" :rolleyes:

I am of course referring to income tax and income tax alone. Not VAT as it would be impossible to prove how much beer someone drank or how many cigarettes they smoked and so on and so on....You can easily establish how much income tax someone paid.

flag123

I've been thinking to myself these few years about the non-nationals in Ireland claiming welfare left right and center. What really gets to me is the fact that people are only starting to notice or say anything about these people now.!.when there is enough money going around everyone is happy, if you say a slight remark about a non-national claiming are welfare you were look at as being racist which really got to me..
Well lets see how welcoming the foreigners will feel if there entering the country any time soon...

marti8

flag123 wrote: »

I've been thinking to myself these few years about the non-nationals in Ireland claiming welfare left right and center. What really gets to me is the fact that people are only starting to notice or say anything about these people now.!.when there is enough money going around everyone is happy, if you say a slight remark about a non-national claiming are welfare you were look at as being racist which really got to me..
Well lets see how welcoming the foreigners will feel if there entering the country any time soon...

Thanks for your input. We have to remember that it isn't the fault of foreigners, I see what you are saying but the system allows that, it is the system which needs to be changed.

And yeah, of course you're right, it is stupid that some people label folks who believe Irish citizens should come first as racist, of course it's not racist. Each country should do what is best for that country.


I would personally always be welcoming to foreigners, what I don't like is the fact that non-nationals, and I'm talking about other EU nationals, mainly east Europeans becuse they are the single biggest non-national group* on social welfare getting the exact same benefits as Irish citizens after having worked for 2 years is NOT fair, it's not fair or in the best interests of Ireland or Irish people. We need to look after our own citizens first.


*I'm not including the UK for reasons I have mentioned before....we don't in practical terms consider British non-nationals and they in practical terms don't consider Irish non-nationals, although of course technically they are and we are....there are many Irish citizens on the dole in the UK and vice versa, we have close political, historical, familial links.....we get to vote in UK general elections and vice versa..and then there is northern Ireland, where people can hold Irish and British citizenship at the same time...And since the foundation of the State there has been free movement of people between the UK and Ireland, no work permit restrictions etc.

DeVore

Wow... our government is about to create a black-hole of a toxic-bank with billions of euro of our (and future generations) money. They refuse to release the names of the 10 people who effectively handed hundreds of millions of pounds with the Anlgo farce and have shirked from making the wealthy pay for the trouble we find ourlselves in...

But its the foreign nationals on the dole you are focusing on?

Wow. :eek:


DeV.

marti8

DeVore wrote: »

Wow... our government is about to create a black-hole of a toxic-bank with billions of pounds of our (and future generations) money. They refuse to release the names of the 10 people who effectively handed hundreds of millions of pounds with the Anlgo farce and have shirked at making the wealthy pay for the trouble we find ourlselves in...

But its the foreign nationals on the dole you are focusing on?

Wow. :eek:


DeV.

This government has screwed up plenty of times and will most probably continue to do so and when they are gone the next government will also probably screw up plenty too.....but hopefully would do a better job.

Focusing on non-nationals getting the dole is just one issue of many that should be addressed by this government and which should be scrutinised by the Irish people but because it is only one of many does not, as you seem to suggest, mean we don't focus on it. How exactly does your logic work?

ejmaztec

marti8 wrote: »

Thanks for your input. We have to remember that it isn't the fault of foreigners, I see what you are saying but the system allows that, it is the system which needs to be changed.

And yeah, of course you're right, it is stupid that some people label folks who believe Irish citizens should come first as racist, of course it's not racist. Each country should do what is best for that country.


I would personally always be welcoming to foreigners, what I don't like is the fact that non-nationals, and I'm talking about other EU nationals, mainly east Europeans becuse they are the single biggest non-national group* on social welfare getting the exact same benefits as Irish citizens after having worked for 2 years is NOT fair, it's not fair or in the best interests of Ireland or Irish people. We need to look after our own citizens first.


*I'm not including the UK for reasons I have mentioned before....we don't in practical terms consider British non-nationals and they in practical terms don't consider Irish non-nationals, although of course technically they are and we are....there are many Irish citizens on the dole in the UK and vice versa, we have close political, historical, familial links.....we get to vote in UK general elections and vice versa..and then there is northern Ireland, where people can hold Irish and British citizenship at the same time...And since the foundation of the State there has been free movement of people between the UK and Ireland, no work permit restrictions etc.

There are British and Irish people who would either be very angry, or split their side with laughter reading such total fantasy. As I have dual nationality I'll split both my sides.

marti8

ejmaztec wrote: »

There are British and Irish people who would either be very angry, or split their side with laughter reading such total fantasy. As I have dual nationality I'll split both my sides.

Laugh as much as you want to...lol....as you are unable to engage in debate and support any arguments you have tried to make so far....now, I'm splitting my sides with laughter....:D

The simple fact is that since the foundation of the State Irish people have been able to work, vote, live in, claim dole in the UK just as, obviously, British people have. And vice versa should they so wish. There have never been restrictions on the free movement of people. So, again, for all intents and purposes Irish people have been treated exactly as British citizens when in the UK and British citizens have been treated exactly as Irish citizens when in Ireland. Do you understand what I am saying now?....lol We have something between our 2 countries which is called a Common Travel Area also. And then we also have the complex situation which is northern Ireland whereby people born in northern Ireland can opt for Irish or British passports....or both actually.

But all this is a side issue to the real issue which is non-nationals in Ireland having the same rights to social benefits as Irish citizens, why don't you put forward a rational, logical argument to oppose what I am saying? Why not, lol....because you can't!

mikemac

marti8 wrote: »

But all this is a side issue to the real issue which is non-nationals in Ireland having the same rights to social benefits as Irish citizens,

Tis a while since I was last in the SW system but from what I understood, non-nationals need to be here paying PRSI for two years before they can claim.
But last time I was on the dole, I think it was 39 consecutive weeks before you could get Job seekers benefit. It was called unemployment benefit back then.

So realy, they don't have the same rights at the moment.

marti8

mikemac wrote: »

Tis a while since I was last in the SW system but from what I understood, non-nationals need to be here paying PRSI for two years before they can claim.
But last time I was on the dole, I think it was 39 consecutive weeks before you could get Job seekers benefit. It was called unemployment benefit back then.

So realy, they don't have the same rights at the moment.

If they have worked for 2 years non-nationals then have exactly the same rights to social welfare as an Irish citizen and that, in my opinion and the opinion of others, is wrong and unfair to Ireland and Irish citizens.

Maybe instead of cutting the dole for the under 20's in half the government should have tightened the qualifying criteria for non-nationals to get social welfare from that 2 years to say 5 or 6 or 7 or 10! It wouldn't solve the problem but would be a move in the right direction. They could do it they want to but they choose not to, instead they focused in on Irish nationals, who do make up the vast majority of the under 20's in Ireland, and cut their welfare payments. It is unfair to Irish citizens and in Ireland Irish citizens should come first.

but43r

marti8 wrote: »

If they have worked for 2 years non-nationals then have exactly the same rights to social welfare as an Irish citizen and that, in my opinion and the opinion of others, is wrong and unfair to Ireland and Irish citizens.

Maybe instead of cutting the dole for the under 20's in half the government should have tightened the qualifying criteria for non-nationals to get social welfare from that 2 years to say 5 or 6 or 7 or 10! It wouldn't solve the problem but would be a move in the right direction. They could do it they want to but they choose not to, instead they focused in on Irish nationals, who do make up the vast majority of the under 20's in Ireland, and cut their welfare payments. It is unfair to Irish citizens and in Ireland Irish citizens should come first.

Person who is the most competent should come first. Can you imagine what would happen if most of eastern Europeans who are on the dole would leave Ireland now??? Demand for goods and services would fall... The houses that they used to live in would be left empty... Income tax and PRSI is not the only tax that there is, VAT, Motor Tax, VRT and many more taxes that are there, how would government calculate the amount that they have paid then??? Why should eastern Europeans pay Income tax and PRSI at all then???

marti8

but43r wrote: »

Person who is the most competent should come first. Can you imagine what would happen if most of eastern Europeans who are on the dole would leave Ireland now??? Demand for goods and services would fall... The houses that they used to live in would be left empty... Income tax and PRSI is not the only tax that there is, VAT, Motor Tax, VRT and many more taxes that are there, how would government calculate the amount that they have paid then??? Why should eastern Europeans pay Income tax and PRSI at all then???

The person who is the most competent should come first? Huh, since when? If that is the case then why do most non-EU nationals require work permits or do you suggest that we leave everyone in and whoever happens to be the most competent gets the job? Strange logic.

Or if you are referring to dole, do you understand how our social welfare system works? It is not about being competent or incompetent?

Lol, don't make me laugh, the non-nationals who are on the dole pay for those goods and services with money provided to them by the Irish State.....And if you read the thread although granted it goes on for a few pages...lol, you will see that I have repeatedly said non-national claiming social welfare should be ALLOWED to but only upto the ammount which they have contributed in taxes.

We live in very tough economic times and as cold as it might sound in Ireland Irish people should come first. Just as in Poland Polish people should come first and so on and so on. If Ireland doesn't now even have enough money to support our own citizens then why should we be supporting the citizens of other countries?..............

ejmaztec

marti8 wrote: »

Laugh as much as you want to...lol....as you are unable to engage in debate and support any arguments you have tried to make so far....now, I'm splitting my sides with laughter....:D

The simple fact is that since the foundation of the State Irish people have been able to work, vote, live in, claim dole in the UK just as, obviously, British people have. And vice versa should they so wish. There have never been restrictions on the free movement of people. So, again, for all intents and purposes Irish people have been treated exactly as British citizens when in the UK and British citizens have been treated exactly as Irish citizens when in Ireland. Do you understand what I am saying now?....lol We have something between our 2 countries which is called a Common Travel Area also. And then we also have the complex situation which is northern Ireland whereby people born in northern Ireland can opt for Irish or British passports....or both actually.

But all this is a side issue to the real issue which is non-nationals in Ireland having the same rights to social benefits as Irish citizens, why don't you put forward a rational, logical argument to oppose what I am saying? Why not, lol....because you can't!

As I said before, you cannot exclude the UK. I understand perfectly well what you're saying, as I accidentally happened upon the Stormfront website on one occasion.

Let's take your selfish, irrational and illogical scheme a step further. If you consider that the unemployed should only get benefits to the tune of what they have contributed, you would also be consigning a myriad of Irish nationals to a famine-like situation. No-one pays enough into the kitty to keep them on benefits indefinitely.

I sincerely hope that you haven't exceeded the contributions that you've made.:eek: Oh, no, you're still ok, because some illogical government hasn't changed the law - yet!

marti8

ejmaztec wrote: »

As I said before, you cannot exclude the UK. I understand perfectly well what you're saying, as I accidentally happened upon the Stormfront website on one occasion.

Let's take your selfish, irrational and illogical scheme a step further. If you consider that the unemployed should only get benefits to the tune of what they have contributed, you would also be consigning a myriad of Irish nationals to a famine-like situation. No-one pays enough into the kitty to keep them on benefits indefinitely.

I sincerely hope that you haven't exceeded the contributions that you've made.:eek: Oh, no, you're still ok, because some illogical government hasn't changed the law - yet!

You say the UK cannot be excluded? Of course it can. I am talking what is in the best interests of Ireland, is it selfish, yes, of course but whenever a State does what is best for itself it is by definition selfish or if you want to use the term "in the national interst" be my guest, and rightly so.

Ireland and the UK have a special relationship that goes above and beyond the relationship we actually have with say Poland or Latvia or wherever else. This is realism, these are the facts.

And if your response to my argument is to say "oh, lets it take it one step further....", well, that isn't a very convincing rebuttal. I'm not talking about taking anything one step further, the heading for this topic is very clear.

Oh and that rather immature, idiotic comment you made about Stormfront is just that, immature and idiotic. Your level of intelligence realy does come shining through......I am neither a racist nor a xenophobe. In fact the type of folks on Stormfront which I once stumbled across also repulse me and trust me they would not be too fond of me, a left leaning Irishman with a non-national spouse............. So, think before you post, I know it must be hard for you but you really should try it.

thoker

CiaranC wrote: »

You'd say?

Maybe you should check.

It's less than polish on the dole in Ireland ?;)

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

thoker wrote: »

It's less than polish on the dole in Ireland ?;)

Post some proof of this or GTFO with your speculation...

DeVore

marti8 wrote: »

This government has screwed up plenty of times and will most probably continue to do so and when they are gone the next government will also probably screw up plenty too.....but hopefully would do a better job.

Focusing on non-nationals getting the dole is just one issue of many that should be addressed by this government and which should be scrutinised by the Irish people but because it is only one of many does not, as you seem to suggest, mean we don't focus on it. How exactly does your logic work?

Its called prioritisation and urgency.

You accept its not the top priority item, would you say its in the top 3? the top 5? 10? 20?

Where on the list of things we should be having a 30 page thread about would you put it?

DeV.

marti8

Milana Icy Waistband wrote: »

Post some proof of this or GTFO with your speculation...

Unfortunetly it appears there are no figures to hand for this but it is without doubt true, there are not for example over 40,000 Irish people on the dole in eastern Europe, to suggest that there are is laughable.

And if you suggest otherwise, then why don't YOU back it up with some numbers?.........

marti8

DeVore wrote: »

Its called prioritisation and urgency.

You accept its not the top priority item, would you say its in the top 3? the top 5? 10? 20?

Where on the list of things we should be having a 30 page thread about would you put it?

DeV.

Well, if you don't think the fact that there are tens of thousands of non-nationals on the dole claiming welfare from the Irish State on a weekly basis is an urgent issue then that is where you and I disagree, although I am sure we disagree about many other issues too.....

Perhaps you think a 50% dole cut for Irish citizens above a tightening of restrictions for non-nationals getting the dole takes precedence.......If the criteria had been changed, if it had become more restrictive for non-nationals to get dole here then there would have been no need for the government to cut Irish citizens dole in half....and the majority of those affected ARE Irish.

Scofflaw

If Ireland chose to restrict the right of foreign nationals to welfare, we can expect other countries to do so too. We're only an island geographically.

cordially,
Scofflaw

marti8

Scofflaw wrote: »

If Ireland chose to restrict the right of foreign nationals to welfare, we can expect other countries to do so too. We're only an island geographically.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Of course and that is 100% AOK. The numbers of Irish nationals recieving social welfare payments in other EU States is well below the level of EU nationals recieving social welfare in Ireland. To put it simply and concisely, there are more of them here, than of us there.

And I am not icluding the UK in this little calculation for a number of reasons which I have outlined time and again already.

Also we do already restrict non-nationals when it comes to social welfare in that they have to have been working for 2 years initially before being able to claim. So, if we choose not to stop the dole for non-nationals completely we could make a good start by tightening the eligibility criteria, say to 5,6,7 or 10 years....instead of 2. Not ideal but a good start.

Scofflaw

marti8 wrote: »

Of course and that is 100% AOK. The numbers of Irish nationals recieving social welfare payments in other EU States is well below the level of EU nationals recieving social welfare in Ireland. To put it simply and concisely, there are more of them here, than of us there.

Currently, if even that...there are a lot more than 75,000 Irish national abroad.

marti8 wrote: »

And I am not icluding the UK in this little calculation for a number of reasons which I have outlined time and again already.

And which have persuaded nobody.

marti8 wrote: »

Also we do already restrict non-nationals when it comes to social welfare in that they have to have been working for 2 years initially before being able to claim. So, if we choose not to stop the dole for non-nationals completely we could make a good start by tightening the eligibility criteria, say to 5,6,7 or 10 years....instead of 2. Not ideal but a good start.

Well, you're welcome to suggest it. I wouldn't support it.

Scofflaw

marti8

Scofflaw wrote: »

Currently, if even that...there are a lot more than 75,000 Irish national abroad.



And which have persuaded nobody.



Well, you're welcome to suggest it. I wouldn't support it.

Scofflaw

There are more EU nationals claiming social welfare in Ireland than Irish nationals claiming social welfare in other EU member States. This excludes the UK for reasons I have mentioned previously.

And if the reason I have excluded the UK doesn't persuade someone well, honestly that doesn't matter. I am not here to persuade anyone of anything, I am here to express an opinion, people agree, fine...people disagree, fine.

And you say you wouldn't support tightening the eligibility for non-nationals to get the dole in Ireland, fine that is your opinion. So, you would suggest that cuts are made somewhere else in the social welfare budget I assume? I'd really love to hear where?...........We have already had Irish citizens dole cut in half (the under 20's, the vast majority of whom are Irish) while non-citizens remain untouched. As I have said previously and will restate: the Irish State owes its first responsibility to Irish citizens.

deadhead13

PRSI contributions go directly into the Social Insurance Fund, which in turn funds social benefits. Are you suggesting that all foreign nationals be obliged to pay into this fund weekly, but can never benefit from it if the need arises? Utter nonsense.

marti8

deadhead13 wrote: »

PRSI contributions go directly into the Social Insurance Fund, which in turn funds social benefits. Are you suggesting that all foreign nationals be obliged to pay into this fund weekly, but can never benefit from it if the need arises? Utter nonsense.

If you had actually read what I said you would see that NO this is not what I said.........I explained quite clearly that non-nationals should only recieve social welfare payments upto the ammount they have paid in tax to the State. Do you understand now? Also very many non-nationals, in fact probably the majority from empirical evidence, work(ed) in lower paid jobs, minimum wage job......these individuals didn't actually even pay PRSI. So, it is very correct to say that non-nationals who were in minimum wage jobs (earning under €352 p.w) and who are now on the dole NEVER in the first instance even paid social insurance yet are entitled to social benefits....A CRAZY SYSTEM.

And I don't belive that lower paid, minimum wage workers should pay tax......but what I do believe is that foreign nationals who have not paid tax should not get social welfare and those who have should get social welfare, as I said, upto the ammount they have contibuted in tax. I draw a distinction between Irish citizens entitlements to social welfare and the entitlements of non-citizens to the very same benefits. Simple.

ionix5891

marti8 wrote: »

Do you support tightening the rules in realtion to non-nationals claiming social welfare?

i support tightening the dole for everyone no matter what their race or color is

social welfare system is way too generous and has no incentives for people to find or make employment/further education

i understand that if someone looses their job its a tough time, but i don't see how one can not find any employment/education even after a year no matter how hard things are

there are still jobs out there to dirty for Irish folk which is sickening, i chose to scrape pots when i was your age and not live of welfare