Non-citizens getting the dole? Time to stop it?

marti8

ejmaztec wrote: »

So, from your first post to this one, they've gone from paying tax (in which case they would have had PRSI credits) to not having PRSI credits? You should really make your mind up.



So, left-wing and right-wing are both the same? There's a turn-up for the books.

Jese louise, what is it you can't understand?...lol If non-nationals have paid tax the that is fine, I have absolutely no problem with non-nationals who have paid tax recieving social welfare upto the ammount they have paid in tax, I have said that repeatedly.

Conversely, if non-nationals have not paid tax then those non-nationals should not recieve social welfare.

The whole line of my argument hindges basically on one fact and one fact alone: citizenship. The State owes it's first responsibility to the citizen.

I believe as do many others that in Ireland Irish nationals should come first and in Poland Polish nationals should come first and in France French nationals should come first and on and on and on.........


No, the left and the right are not the same (although over the years we have seen the "mainstream" left move further right, imho) I believe in the redistribution of wealth, I believe in protecting the vulnerable and poorer citizens (notice the word) in our society, I believe in public ownership of utilities for example....by definition I am left leaning (in fact left leaning would be putting it mildly) Now, whether "all" socialists belive in what I am suggesting is upto them......Just as whether "all" right wing folks believe that dole should be abolished is upto them.

couerdelion

This thread is predictable considering the state of the country at the moment. When things go bad people look for someone to blame. The eastern europeans are an easy target coming over here and taking our jobs etc.

The thing is that those countries who embraced the open borders policies profitted by larger GDP increases than those who kept a closed borders policy. By having a ready supply of qualified employees Ireland was able to attract foreign investment, the additional workforce required to service these companies had to come from somewhere. How do you quantify the additional money they brought, and still do, into the country through corporation taxes etc?

Do we start partitioning taxes and allow only Polish taxes to be used to pay Polish SW? Afterall if they're living 10 to a room they aren't using the full amount of social services their taxes pay for.

Social Welfare is an important part of assisting and helping those who are out of work. The government needs to make sure it isn't abused and that it is not an incentive for anyone to stay out of work. I don't care if they are martians if they have paid into the system in good faith then they deserved to be paid out in good faith too.

and yes I have a vested interest as I'm a non-national who has put a good deal into the governments coffers in the few years I've been here. Still, I'm probably just seen as taking a job that any irish person could do...

marti8

teetotaller wrote: »

Marti8

Thank you for being so generous.

I'm from Poland, I live in Dublin nearly 5 years and so far I paid over 35k in taxes so far. If I'd loose my job, I could go claim SW benefit and governent would have to pay me benefits for 35000/800 = 3,5 years on dole

Great news for me I won't get SW benefit paid for 1 year as it is at the moment but for 3,5 years !!

I'd like to remind you my Irish friends that not everyone from Eastern Europe works as kitchen porter, cleaner or waitress. Also not everyone send every penny back to Poland. Myself after 5 years in Ireland I have 500 euro on my Polish account. everything else is here. I got married here, My wife is going to give birth here as well, and we spend our money here in Ireland.

I'm pretty sure that these people who scream loudest do their shopping in Northern Ireland and spend a lot of money abroad while on holidays. and that is how they contribute to Irish economy.

I feel very embarassed when I read threats like this and almost all people write that we don't contribute to your ( our ) economy. I don't like when I read that we all work for minimum wages and shop only in Polish shops. I don't like as well when I read that we live 10 people in 2 bed house and we don't help Irish people to pay their morgages.

Maybe that was a true but few years ago - just after we arrived. Now all my friends from Poland live on their own, spend money in Irish shops support SW beneficients, by cars ( helping Irish people to get 09cars) etc etc.

When everything is allright you are happy to have us here, you are happy to be managers not just company staff, you are saying that Polish people are hard working people- if you don't remember check threads that were written few years ago. Now situation is bad and you simply say - go away why ?

Did some of you already forgot what was situation in Ireland just over 10 years ago and how much help you got from other countries ?
Don't forget that many companies in Ireland are not Irish owned companies. Usually UK and US - tell them also to go away and fcuk off - they are not Irish are they


one more thing

I'm a member of Polish forums as well, and I read every day about people who lost their jobs, about job seekers benefits about social welfare payments - and some of these people are just lazy, they don't want to work they are happy with SW "salaries"
but whose fault is this ?

I think that it is only Irish government's fault

I read about people who are back in Poland and their friends are collecting and sending them their SW payments why is this possible ?
Why at the post office nobody was checking documents when somebody wanted to collect money ? only SW swipe card and signature.....

I work very hard, but got very irritated after I spoke to my neighbours She is Irish, He is from EE country, they have a kid.

They both don't work and don't want to work - they get SW payments, government pay for their rent, they get paid their bills. Bills - I try to not to use too much gas or electricity average is about 100 - 150 euro every month. My neighbours bills who live in the same type of house are over 350 every month - they don't care government pay for this........

construction collapsy - who allowed to increase house prices so much in last few years ? Simple answer - government

Thanks for your input, I know we will disagree but I am glad you took the time to express what you feel. Listen, my wife is east European. And we have discussed this often and if the roles were reversed and people in Poland or Slovakia or Hungary or Latvia or wherever were being asked to support non-citizens to the ammount of I believe someone mentioned 8 million euro earlier each week through social welfare then you would see the same response. You may disagree and that is your right however it is equally my right to express my opinion.

I have, obviously!, nothing against east Europeans. I am thinking solely about what is best for Irish nationals and the Irish State. We are experiencing very economically challenging times, money has to be saved and from my point of view the State needs to protect her own citizens first. If a Polish citizen living in Ireland has contributed to the State then that individual should get that contribution back by way of social welfare should he or she need it.

I'm sorry but I am not thinking "what is best for non-nationals in Ireland", I am thinking what is best for Irish nationals in Ireland. And I cannot apologise for that. Yes, it is 100%, totally and utterly selfish and I never denied that but each State has as I have said many times its first responsibility to its citizens.

I wish, again as I have said before, that it didn't have to be like this but when a country, any country, is FAST running out of money, it has to be. Especially then.

Would I want to see Irish nationals in jobs in Ireland rather than other nationals, yes. Why? Because right now and I am talking about right now, that is what we need. If there aren't enough Irish people available to fill jobs then I have NO problem with those jobs being filled by non-nationals. And yes, I know all non-nationals are not in lower paying jobs but from empirical evidence it would suggest that they are.

Initially Ireland had a work permit sheme for non-nationals, that, against the best advice of some economists was scrapped for "new" EU member State citizens , the State was warned that if and when there was an economic downturn (and right now we are in a major downturn....and it is going to get much, much worse) that there would be problems.

We could have done as many other "old" EU States did, require work permits, we foolishly choose not to and now we have an 32 million euro social welfare bill each month for non-nationals.........

So, I am sorry for thinking of Irish people first but I am Irish. I would expect someone in Poland to be saying exactly the same thing were the roles reversed.......

Edit: I have just seen your edit and yes, you are totally correct, social welfare and non-nationals is only one of the problems which should be addressed. I have NEVER blamed non-nationals for the situation we are now in and I have said as much before. In fact when one poster who agreed with me went onto verbally attack foreigners I made it clear that that was not what I believed. Yes, the situation of non-nationals being able to get social welfare payments after having worked 2 years is the governments fault.....but still, no matter who's fault it is or isn't it still needs to be addressed.

marti8

couerdelion wrote: »

This thread is predictable considering the state of the country at the moment. When things go bad people look for someone to blame. The eastern europeans are an easy target coming over here and taking our jobs etc.

The thing is that those countries who embraced the open borders policies profitted by larger GDP increases than those who kept a closed borders policy. By having a ready supply of qualified employees Ireland was able to attract foreign investment, the additional workforce required to service these companies had to come from somewhere. How do you quantify the additional money they brought, and still do, into the country through corporation taxes etc?

Do we start partitioning taxes and allow only Polish taxes to be used to pay Polish SW? Afterall if they're living 10 to a room they aren't using the full amount of social services their taxes pay for.

Social Welfare is an important part of assisting and helping those who are out of work. The government needs to make sure it isn't abused and that it is not an incentive for anyone to stay out of work. I don't care if they are martians if they have paid into the system in good faith then they deserved to be paid out in good faith too.

and yes I have a vested interest as I'm a non-national who has put a good deal into the governments coffers in the few years I've been here. Still, I'm probably just seen as taking a job that any irish person could do...

Well, to be honest these days you probably are seen as taking a job an Irish national could do, yes, that is true.

And you said that if they have paid in then they should get back.....and what if they have not paid in, what if they were on minimum wage and paid NO PRSI?

Multinationals don't worry themselves overly as to whether their workers are in the country on work permits or not, as long as the job is done. We could have introduced a work permit system, we didn't, that was our stupidity (well, our sorry excuse for a governments stupidity actually)

couerdelion

You are right, I am probably seen as blocking an Irish person from having a job irrespective of the entrepreneurial skills I have shown which has resulted in employment of five other Irish and non-irish persons.

If they were on minimum wage there will have been minimal contributions made at least indirectly through corporation tax payments from the company they were working for. By all means limit the amount of dole that the country is willing to pay out but you then have to limit the amount you expect to be paid in once the person has exceeded the amount that could possibly be returned. Why should I continue to pay full tax if I'm going to be limited to claiming SW?

You're wrong that multi-nationals don't care about work permits or non-work permit staff. Manufacturers have to know a ready supply of qualified staff are available for employment if they decide to increase production. They don't want to go through the hassle of advertising and sponsoring a work permit. An available workforce is one of the major tickboxes for locating a company and is one of the reasons Ireland is/was trying to sell itself as a knowledge based economy. In these times supply and demand will mean Irish people are more likely to be offered a job compared to a similarly qualified non-Irish person. Two years ago just about anyone who wanted to work was working and companies had no choice but to look elsewhere.

Scofflaw

couerdelion wrote: »

You are right, I am probably seen as blocking an Irish person from having a job irrespective of the entrepreneurial skills I have shown which has resulted in employment of five other Irish and non-irish persons.

If they were on minimum wage there will have been minimal contributions made at least indirectly through corporation tax payments from the company they were working for. By all means limit the amount of dole that the country is willing to pay out but you then have to limit the amount you expect to be paid in once the person has exceeded the amount that could possibly be returned. Why should I continue to pay full tax if I'm going to be limited to claiming SW?

You're wrong that multi-nationals don't care about work permits or non-work permit staff. Manufacturers have to know a ready supply of qualified staff are available for employment if they decide to increase production. They don't want to go through the hassle of advertising and sponsoring a work permit. An available workforce is one of the major tickboxes for locating a company and is one of the reasons Ireland is/was trying to sell itself as a knowledge based economy. In these times supply and demand will mean Irish people are more likely to be offered a job compared to a similarly qualified non-Irish person. Two years ago just about anyone who wanted to work was working and companies had no choice but to look elsewhere.

Which was one of the main reasons the Irish government chose to waive the Nice Treaty delay on free movement of accession state nationals - the main bottleneck for the Irish economy was always going to be people, so the only way the economy could continue to expand past a certain point was to suck in the accession state nationals before there was anywhere else in the EU for them to go. Not that some of us were ever going to be grateful, but there would be less rancour if the government hadn't then screwed up the management of the resulting boom.

cordially,
Scofflaw

marti8

couerdelion wrote: »

You are right, I am probably seen as blocking an Irish person from having a job irrespective of the entrepreneurial skills I have shown which has resulted in employment of five other Irish and non-irish persons.

If they were on minimum wage there will have been minimal contributions made at least indirectly through corporation tax payments from the company they were working for. By all means limit the amount of dole that the country is willing to pay out but you then have to limit the amount you expect to be paid in once the person has exceeded the amount that could possibly be returned. Why should I continue to pay full tax if I'm going to be limited to claiming SW?

You're wrong that multi-nationals don't care about work permits or non-work permit staff. Manufacturers have to know a ready supply of qualified staff are available for employment if they decide to increase production. They don't want to go through the hassle of advertising and sponsoring a work permit. An available workforce is one of the major tickboxes for locating a company and is one of the reasons Ireland is/was trying to sell itself as a knowledge based economy. In these times supply and demand will mean Irish people are more likely to be offered a job compared to a similarly qualified non-Irish person. Two years ago just about anyone who wanted to work was working and companies had no choice but to look elsewhere.

This issue about corporations is to be honest besdie the point. But fine, the government could have decided to use a quota system for example, there are creative ways to deal with this. Wow, it's am amazing how all those other EU States who had work permits in place for the new accession States were able to attract multinationals, huh, wonder how they did it?....but this thread is about social welfare payments for foreign national after having worked a minimum of 2 years.

And I am referring to a foreign national taking a job an Irish person could do. If a foreign national is employing Irish national then it is a whole different kettle of fish, why? Because I am talking about employees not employers. It is very, very simple because that is what would be best for Ireland....and I am talking about what is best for Ireland and Irish people. If I go to say, the US and I invest some money and start a business and employ some Americans and then my business fails.....how much social welfare as a foreigner would I get?.......As far as I am aware, none. But please correct me if I am wrong.

I would like to see evidence of what you are saying in relation to these days with supply and demand an Irish national will get a job before an equally skilled non-national? How did you reach that conclusion?

Anyway, you seem to miss the point of this whole thread, I believe as do many other Irish people that the first priority of the Irish State is to Irish people. That about wraps it up rather concisely.

teetotaller

marti8 wrote: »

if the roles were reversed and people in Poland or Slovakia or Hungary or Latvia or wherever were being asked to support non-citizens to the ammount of I believe someone mentioned 8 million euro earlier each week through social welfare then you would see the same response.

First of all - these 8 millions can be reduced after implementing more strict check system. And in Poland it is very strict.
If somebody in Poland would work and cos of work got right to SW benefits I wouldn't complain - He made a deal with Poland - he contributes to the country, but he is entitled to get help.

marti8 wrote: »

Would I want to see Irish nationals in jobs in Ireland rather than other nationals, yes. Why? Because right now and I am talking about right now, that is what we need.

I could agree with you only if there wouldn't be so many non Irish companies in Ireland

You simply say - we have difficult time now, Ireland only for Irish - ok, but if Ireland for Irish - say goodbay to hp, intel, google, wyeth, icon, statestreet, etc etc etc.

marti8 wrote: »

If there aren't enough Irish people available to fill jobs then I have NO problem with those jobs being filled by non-nationals. And yes, I know all non-nationals are not in lower paying jobs but from empirical evidence it would suggest that they are.

and are in your opinion all Irish people able to do all these jobs taken by immigrants ?

one example - have you got a chance to be in hospital in last few years ?
more than half of nurses are not Irish. a lot of doctors are not Irish........
can you fill all positions with Irish staff ?

it is only one sector but there are much more... have you heard about good IT Irish specialist who can't get a job ? can you fill all senior IT positions with Irish staff ? etc etc etc

marti8 wrote: »

Yes, the situation of non-nationals being able to get social welfare payments after having worked 2 years is the governments fault.....but still, no matter who's fault it is or isn't it still needs to be addressed.

it is not a fault - don't change my words. it is a fair play actually, but government should put much more attention on how these money are spent and who gets them - it is few more jobs and fe more euros saved.

marti8

Scofflaw wrote: »

Which was one of the main reasons the Irish government chose to waive the Nice Treaty delay on free movement of accession state nationals - the main bottleneck for the Irish economy was always going to be people, so the only way the economy could continue to expand past a certain point was to suck in the accession state nationals before there was anywhere else in the EU for them to go. Not that some of us were ever going to be grateful, but there would be less rancour if the government hadn't then screwed up the management of the resulting boom.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Like I said they could have done that in any number of creative ways, the least creative: work permits....more creative: a quota system "huh, how many people do we project we'll need? 10,000, you said, Bertie? Ok, lets allow 10,000 in....where's me tea"......more creative: only those who could sing The Soldiers Song in Irish, backwards....while at the SAME time doing Micheal Jackson moves and eating shamrock could have been let in......:)

teetotaller

Marti8

let's say I bought a house here in Ireland ( I didn't yet, but my Polish friends did)
do you want to tell me, that If I lost a job I shouldn't get any SW benefit to pay my mortgage ? And i shouldn't be allowed to look after new job- you will tell me goodbye, leave your property and go away ?

Is Ireland country of law, or ...... ?

couerdelion

Scofflaw wrote: »

Which was one of the main reasons the Irish government chose to waive the Nice Treaty delay on free movement of accession state nationals - the main bottleneck for the Irish economy was always going to be people, so the only way the economy could continue to expand past a certain point was to suck in the accession state nationals before there was anywhere else in the EU for them to go. Not that some of us were ever going to be grateful, but there would be less rancour if the government hadn't then screwed up the management of the resulting boom.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Completely agree. The government decided to gamble on there being continued growth. There wasn't but the amount of growth that has happened has been much higher than comparable states who didn't allow full movement.

marti8 wrote: »

This issue about corporations is to be honest besdie the point. But fine, the government could have decided to use a quota system for example, there are creative ways to deal with this. Wow, it's am amazing how all those other EU States who had work permits in place for the new accession States were able to attract multinationals, huh, wonder how they did it?....but this thread is about social welfare payments for foreign national after having worked a minimum of 2 years.

Would the cost of administrating sucha quota scheme have been restricitve? The other nations didn't attract as many foreign nationals and subsequently didn't have the amount of growth Ireland had.

And I am referring to a foreign national taking a job an Irish person could do. If a foreign national is employing Irish national then it is a whole different kettle of fish, why? Because I am talking about employees not employers. It is very, very simple because that is what would be best for Ireland....and I am talking about what is best for Ireland and Irish people. If I go to say, the US and I invest some money and start a business and employ some Americans and then my business fails.....how much social welfare as a foreigner would I get?.......As far as I am aware, none. But please correct me if I am wrong.

Entrepreneurship isn't exclusive to new ventures it can also relate to actions within existing business as in my case where I grew part of the business. Although the company I work for was set up in Ireland by two non-nationals and employs 150 mainly irish people.

I don't care much for US policies. Their employees get FA holidays and have fewer worker rights. Doesn't mean Ireland should follow.

I would like to see evidence of what you are saying in relation to these days with supply and demand an Irish national will get a job before an equally skilled non-national? How did you reach that conclusion?

Evidence of an illegal act? C'mon everyone knows if a Pole and an Irish person both similarly qualified go for the same job the Irish person will get it. I have friends who've lost out because of this. It's human nature to look after one's own.

Anyway, you seem to miss the point of this whole thread, I believe as do many other Irish people that the first priority of the Irish State is to Irish people. That about wraps it up rather concisely.

Unfortunately once you decided to become part of the larger entity of Europe you lost all rights to determine Ireland as being seperate. As has been stated previously, once Ireland started taking Europes money it was always going to have to pay it back in some way. There's no such thing as a free lunch! Where was protectionism when the UK taxes were paying for the Irish roads?

marti8

teetotaller wrote: »

Marti8

let's say I bought a house here in Ireland ( I didn't yet, but my Polish friends did)
do you want to tell me, that If I lost a job I shouldn't get any SW benefit to pay my mortgage ? And i shouldn't be allowed to look after new job- you will tell me goodbye, leave your property and go away ?

Is Ireland country of law, or ...... ?

Ah, Poland......I like Poland. I actually taught English in Poland before "Methoda Callana", yep...:) And Polish women, ahhhhh, Polish women......but I am married now, happily And "Zubrovka"....ah, Zubrovka, many a happy night.....:) Anyway, back to reality.......listen, I know it is unfair to non-nationals, yes, I know that completely and I really wish it wasn't so, really.

Listen, I don't know what the answer would be in the situation you are speaking of. But in such a situation I would personally say: leave them alone. I started this thread simply to throw it out there and see what people think. I certainly don't have a "plan" on how it would all actually work in practice and it will probably never be put into practice anyway. This is more an exercise in debate, an exchange of ideas.

Do I really want non-nationals kicked out of Ireland...absolutely not. When I say irish peole should be given jobs before foreigners I am just taking my reasoning to its logical conclusion but no I don't I guess really believe that, but I want to debate it as if I do.....;)

We have to be accommodating of foreigners, we have to welcome them and help them and we have to avoid creating barriers between us, I know this. But when it comes to social wefare payments and non-nationas something snaps inside me, perhaps because it hits too close to home, as I get a social welfare payment myself.....perhaps I fear that the more non-nationals that are on the dole the less money for me, yes, it is selfish, this I know also. I think what really freaked me out was when the under 20's had their dole cut in half. I was thinking "well, hold on a minute...the vast majority of the under 20's are Irish yet we pay non-nationals millions of euro through social welfare every week...why didn't they address that?...."

But my Polish friend you are very welcome in Ireland and I apologise if what I said made you feel otherwise.

pcardin

Darkbloom wrote: »

Am I right in thinking you were commenting on here for more than twelve hours yesterday?! Christ!

No wonder he can't find any job. Imagine if he is like this on every interview if he ever had one. Brrrrr. I think we just need to stop argue with him and just ignore his madness. Our replies is like a food for hungry man.

This man is so selfish, so fool and so ignorant. Real shame. And all these postings "I am no a racist because I'm married with non-national" just make me sick. I've read a lot and I can tell you YOU ARE!
And I'm so sorry for your wife. Must be so hard to live with a such Nazi like you? What do you do when she is notleastineng to you? Scare with deportation?

weiss

marti8 wrote:

the vast majority of the under 20's are Irish yet we pay non-nationals millions of euro through social welfare every week...why didn't they address that?...."

marti8, I know quite a number of individuals from my hometown who have been on the dole their entire lives - since they could get it at 18, of course.

I'm sure its not uncommon throughout the rest of Ireland.

Some of them are fathers to 2,3 kids or more who are also living on welfare, some of the kids are with different mothers.

The mothers are given houses for nothing..yet they all moan about the hardship they endure.

Alot of this happens before the age of 20.

Halving of the dole for under 20's is too late imho, it should have been implemented well over 10 years ago.

Do you really believe a handful of non-nationals collecting dole is the problem here?

Its the government, they're the real problem..they've no balls, or maybe they just don't care? but I wouldn't you be surprised, would you?

They pishe on their workforce with a smile.. the last budget is perfectly good example of this.

scorpioishere

Marti8 as i said before you are so selfish and ignorant. Your comments are repetitive and have no sense at all. Instead of writting rubbish here you better go and find some jobs. You are just a waste of time.

pcardin

Absolute waste of time. But unfortunately he can't hear us. He is deep under hypnosis. Anti eastern-european hypnosis.

ejmaztec

As Marti8, no matter how much he's told:rolleyes::rolleyes:, insists that non-nationals on the minimum wage have no right to dole payments because they don't contribute, I would like to point out the following. This is not for his benefit, but for the worried foreign nationals who might be alarmed reading the nonsensical "tabloid-type" drivel in this thread.

Up to €352 per week (or 52x352= €18304 per annum), no employee, whether he be Irish, non-Irish, or even a three legged Venusian, has any PRSI deducted from his pay.

The contribution in this case is made by the employer, who has to pay 8.5% of the gross pay into the social fund on behalf of the employee.

So, in effect, if your gross pay is say €350 per week, this actually costs your employer €350 +8.5%x€350=€29.75, giving a total of €379.75.

Above €352 per week, the employee also starts to have PRSI deducted from his pay, which is added to the employer's contribution, and the total paid into the social fund.


http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Topics/Budget/bud09_apr/Pages/SummaryPRSIBudgetApril2009.aspx

I hope that this is clear.

marti8

pcardin wrote: »

No wonder he can't find any job. Imagine if he is like this on every interview if he ever had one. Brrrrr. I think we just need to stop argue with him and just ignore his madness. Our replies is like a food for hungry man.

This man is so selfish, so fool and so ignorant. Real shame. And all these postings "I am no a racist because I'm married with non-national" just make me sick. I've read a lot and I can tell you YOU ARE!
And I'm so sorry for your wife. Must be so hard to live with a such Nazi like you? What do you do when she is notleastineng to you? Scare with deportation?

Lol......oh (wo)man, you are so immature.....:pac: And maybe you haven't noticed there are hundreds of thousands of folks on social welfare these days.....and in all probability be on it for quite some time to come.

And I have said many times before that wanting to put Irish people first is selfish but you obviously didn't hear that.

I realy don't think you have a clue about the definition of the word racist. But listen, if it makes you happy by all means call me a racist or a c**t or whatever else makes you happy.....doesn't matter to me...:)

Lol, you make us laugh....:pac:

ionix5891

marti8 wrote: »

Lol......oh (wo)man, you are so immature.....:pac: And maybe you haven't noticed there are hundreds of thousands of folks on social welfare these days.....and in all probability be on it for quite some time to come.

And I have said many times before that wanting to put Irish people first is selfish but you obviously didn't hear that.

I realy don't think you have a clue about the definition of the word racist. But listen, if it makes you happy by all means call me a racist or a c**t or whatever else makes you happy.....doesn't matter to me...:)

Lol, you make us laugh....:pac:

who is "us"? so far its been you vs everyone else in this thread

i am afraid you are a racist and were exposed as such in this thread many's of time, heres some reading for you

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism

Racism, by its simplest definition is the belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race.[1] People with racist beliefs exhibit stereotype-based prejudices towards individuals and groups of people according to their race. In the case of institutional racism, certain racial groups may be denied rights or benefits, or get preferential treatment. Racial discrimination typically points out taxonomic differences between different groups of people, even though anybody can be racialised, independently of their somatic differences. According to the United Nations conventions, there is no distinction between the term racial discrimination and ethnic discrimination. Racism is the belief that a particular race is superior or inferior to another,that a person's social and moral traits are predetermined by his or her inborn biological characteristics.

oh give these people a call while your in UK with your non Irish girlfriend > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_National_Party

.

marti8

Folks, no offence but this thread is starting to get extremely boring. It was a nice little exercise in debate but it is boring now. It gets so tiresome having to repeat myself time and again.........Anyway, just to let you know, I don't actually believe what I am saying about kicking non-nationals out of jobs, lol.....I was simply taking my argument to it's extreme.....an exercise in debate!

And I don't actually believe ALL non-nationals should not get the dole, again though it is intersting to argue it......:) Do I belive the social welfare system should be tightened for non-nationals who have no real link to this country (i.e: mortgage etc) then yes, I do absolutely. Do I see a difference in the rights of such people and Irish citizens and non-nationals who do have a "real" link to Ireland, absolutely.

Anyway, nitey nite folks, thanks for your contributions - good, bad or indifferent, t'was enjoyable but I have miles to go before I sleep......;)

ejmaztec

marti8 wrote: »

Folks, no offence but this thread is starting to get extremely boring. It was a nice little exercise in debate but it is boring now. It gets so tiresome having to repeat myself time and again.........Anyway, just to let you know, I don't actually believe what I am saying about kicking non-nationals out of jobs, lol.....I was simply taking my argument to it's extreme.....an exercise in debate!

And I don't actually believe ALL non-nationals should not get the dole, again though it is intersting to argue it......:) Do I belive the social welfare system should be tightened for non-nationals who have no real link to this country (i.e: mortgage etc) then yes, I do absolutely. Do I see a difference in the rights of such people and Irish citizens and non-nationals who do have a "real" link to Ireland, absolutely.

Anyway, nitey nite folks, thanks for your contributions - good, bad or indifferent, t'was enjoyable but I have miles to go before I sleep......;)

At least we can agree on something.:P

EnigmasWhisper

CiaranC wrote: »

You'd say?

Maybe you should check.

Ill say and I dont need to check.

My mate is living in Poland with his Polish girlfriend and until recently he was working for a translations company there. Upon being made unemployed he went to his local unemployment agency, where the staff looked at him blankly (even though he speaks Polish fluently) They were bemused by him even attempting to seek unemployment assistance and he was eventually told he is entitled to the equivelant of E20 a month. To anyone here who hasnt been to Poland, that will just about buy you a litre of vodka there and certainly isnt relaitive to the cost of living and inflation etc.

Point being its not relevant to the cost of living there, and they dont feel the need to embrace this PC EU bullsh*t as whole heartedly as us fools. I myself remember having to go through the motions of seeking the dole in Spain a few years ago lol . . . . now thats another story and needless to say they treated me with the same contempt as my mate experienced in Poland (I eventually got paid e200 for a month. Ive also spoken to many Poles in the past who are amazed how generous our goverment are with regards to benefits for non nationals, they find it amusing . . . as do I

Personally I think any non national who chooses to remain here after they become unemployed should be either given social welfare for a maximum of 6 mths, and / or given payments relative to what they would receive in their own countries of origin.

We cant afford to be the dopes of Europe anymore

Evolute

Yeh Yeh freedom ra ra anyways.
I honestly think that when the jobs go so should the foreigners now all you people that say but they are entitled to it can go off and sit in the corner because seriously our government has barely enough cash to cover the Irish on the dole.
It sounds bad but there are immigrants who come to Ireland with no plans of working and the Irish government treat them better then our own country folk come on bit of common sense guys yeh?

If you have a problem with this view on things ask foreign people do their government give half as many non nationals social welfare payments as ours does the answer is not many and not half as much as our country do. In my opinion if a foreign national can claim the dole here we should be able to claim it in there country if needs be but it does not happen that way so as bad as it sounds i think they should be sent packing

EnigmasWhisper

ejmaztec wrote: »

I would like to point out the following. This is not for his benefit, but for the worried foreign nationals who might be alarmed reading the nonsensical "tabloid-type" drivel in this thread.

Perhaps you might be better served being more worried about the Irish people unfortunate enough to be on the dole. I dont feel the need to be overly concerned about non-nationals, thats their goverments concern.

Our goverment has recently cut wlefare payments to Irish nationals under 20 yrs of age by half, they didnt make any changes to the payments of non-nationals. They have also cut Irish nationals Christmas bonuses and are attempting to change child benefit for Irish nationals also.

I note that they have no plans to change the absurd system whereby we pay millions in child benefits to the children abroad of non nationals living here. This money paid to their respective families abroad is often the equivelant of a months salary there and isnt relative. It disgusts me that our goverment chooses to attack the most vulnerable of Irish society, the elderly. They attempted to introduce cuts to their entitlements to medical cards yet didnt even consider making cuts to this absurd waste of money leaving the country to families not even residing here

I for one am more worried about Irish nationals reading this thread, as they are the ones most likely to be affected by any further cuts in benefits by our dispicable goverment.

Hundreds of thousands of Poles etc came here when we needed them to push our blossoming economy. Unlike other countries who continued to have strict visa restrictions we lifted them all for the new EU members in the naive gamble that our economy would remain static forever. Its a gamble that has now spectacularly backfired and these same non-nationals are now costing us close to 50 million a week in benefits.

Im Irish. Im more worried about my own people, my own family, and my friends . . they are the priority in my thoughts and concerns. Irish people vote for and elect their leaders to represent them firstly, their primary concerns should be with us, Irish nationals.

This is a mentality you will find in every country in the world, they worry about their own first. Unfortunately over the last decade or so in this ridiculous country, a minority feel the need to appologise for this lateral way of thinking which in no small part has us in the mess we are in.

Frankly, I dont give a damn who considers that racist. This 'racist' tag was once thrown at anyone who spoke against the treatment of non-nationals in this country at every opportunity, it doesnt matter anymore. People dont care about being referred to as 'racist' or not,we cant afford to, the days of political correctness are well over.

We are the fools of Europe when it comes to immigration policy and social welfare abuses. I have known Polish people in the past who live in Warsaw yet have their mates sign on for them here every month and collect benefits for them . . . This country is a joke, and I have literaly heard non nationals laugh at our generous welfare system and how its more than they would earn working in their countries of origin. I dont blame them for laughing, I would laugh also, and laugh loud if I was them.

Its time for our goverment to be more concerned about those who elect them than appeasing their EU counterparts.

Irish people are angry, I am sensing it more and more everyday. How that anger will manifest it in our society God only knows, but I suspect it wont be very PC

strathspey

Evolute wrote: »

Yeh Yeh freedom ra ra anyways.
I honestly think that when the jobs go so should the foreigners...... .....i think they should be sent packing

Following on from that argument, could we also banish the Germans who basically bankroled the Irish state since 1973, lifted the Irish off their knees, invested money in Ireland's dillapidated infrastructure, basically allowed the Irish to catch with the rest of continental Europe. Since this money was so poorly invested by the Irish, I think Hans would gladly leave but only if he could take his money back with him......or are Germans different from Poles. My god, some Irish have the memory of a goldfish!

ejmaztec

EnigmasWhisper wrote: »

Perhaps you might be better served being more worried about the Irish people unfortunate enough to be on the dole. I dont feel the need to be overly concerned about non-nationals, thats their goverments concern.

Our goverment has recently cut wlefare payments to Irish nationals under 20 yrs of age by half, they didnt make any changes to the payments of non-nationals. They have also cut Irish nationals Christmas bonuses and are attempting to change child benefit for Irish nationals also.

I note that they have no plans to change the absurd system whereby we pay millions in child benefits to the children abroad of non nationals living here. This money paid to their respective families abroad is often the equivelant of a months salary there and isnt relative. It disgusts me that our goverment chooses to attack the most vulnerable of Irish society, the elderly. They attempted to introduce cuts to their entitlements to medical cards yet didnt even consider making cuts to this absurd waste of money leaving the country to families not even residing here

I for one am more worried about Irish nationals reading this thread, as they are the ones most likely to be affected by any further cuts in benefits by our dispicable goverment.

Hundreds of thousands of Poles etc came here when we needed them to push our blossoming economy. Unlike other countries who continued to have strict visa restrictions we lifted them all for the new EU members in the naive gamble that our economy would remain static forever. Its a gamble that has now spectacularly backfired and these same non-nationals are now costing us close to 50 million a week in benefits.

Im Irish. Im more worried about my own people, my own family, and my friends . . they are the priority in my thoughts and concerns. Irish people vote for and elect their leaders to represent them firstly, their primary concerns should be with us, Irish nationals.

This is a mentality you will find in every country in the world, they worry about their own first. Unfortunately over the last decade or so in this ridiculous country, a minority feel the need to appologise for this lateral way of thinking which in no small part has us in the mess we are in.

Frankly, I dont give a damn who considers that racist. This 'racist' tag was once thrown at anyone who spoke against the treatment of non-nationals in this country at every opportunity, it doesnt matter anymore. People dont care about being referred to as 'racist' or not,we cant afford to, the days of political correctness are well over.

We are the fools of Europe when it comes to immigration policy and social welfare abuses. I have known Polish people in the past who live in Warsaw yet have their mates sign on for them here every month and collect benefits for them . . . This country is a joke, and I have literaly heard non nationals laugh at our generous welfare system and how its more than they would earn working in their countries of origin. I dont blame them for laughing, I would laugh also, and laugh loud if I was them.

Its time for our goverment to be more concerned about those who elect them than appeasing their EU counterparts.

Irish people are angry, I am sensing it more and more everyday. How that anger will manifest it in our society God only knows, but I suspect it wont be very PC

I'm concerned with all "genuine" people on the dole, no matter where they come from. All of the dishonest claimants should all be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. This thread relates to foreign nationals.

Many people don't seem to get the "picture" where EU membership is concerned. People don't complain when EU money comes rolling in, only when it goes rolling out. So, the Irish government screwed up? No surprise there. However, the deal was done and we're left with the aftermath. The government can't all of a sudden decide to renege on it, or they will look more stupid than they already are.

It wouldn't surprise me in the least, were the Irish government to be in Brussels looking for for cash to compensate.

The government does seem to be carrying out a lot more checks on monies paid to foreign nationals. With regard to child benefit, for example, the Department seems to be asking a lot more questions regarding nationality etc., in an effort to clamp down on dodgy claims from anyone.

ceret

EnigmasWhisper wrote: »

Hundreds of thousands of Poles

Incorrect. As of the 2006 Census, there were 63,000 Polish people in Ireland. source

EnigmasWhisper

ceret wrote: »

Incorrect. As of the 2006 Census, there were 63,000 Polish people in Ireland. source

You arent so naive as to think those figures are true are you ? Do you honestly believe that every Polish person in ireland were recorded when the census people called to their multi story appartment blocks ? Please :rolleyes:

ejmaztec

EnigmasWhisper wrote: »

You arent so naive as to think those figures are true are you ? Do you honestly believe that every Polish person in ireland were recorded when the census people called to their multi story appartment blocks ? Please :rolleyes:

Based on that dubious generalisation, there would probably be 8 million Irish people in the country as well.

EnigmasWhisper

ejmaztec wrote: »

I'm concerned with all "genuine" people on the dole, no matter where they come from. All of the dishonest claimants should all be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. This thread relates to foreign nationals.

Many people don't seem to get the "picture" where EU membership is concerned. People don't complain when EU money comes rolling in, only when it goes rolling out. So, the Irish government screwed up? No surprise there. However, the deal was done and we're left with the aftermath. The government can't all of a sudden decide to renege on it, or they will look more stupid than they already are.

It wouldn't surprise me in the least, were the Irish government to be in Brussels looking for for cash to compensate.

The government does seem to be carrying out a lot more checks on monies paid to foreign nationals. With regard to child benefit, for example, the Department seems to be asking a lot more questions regarding nationality etc., in an effort to clamp down on dodgy claims from anyone.

While I appreciate this thread is about foreign nationals, the wider implications also refer to Irish nationals, genuine Irish welfare claims and Ireland. I do get the 'picture' where the EU is concerned and indeed I have been against the idea of a Europe superstate for many years. It must also be remembered that Irish people blindly voted 'Yes' for both the Mastericht and Nice treaties thus sealing our fate regarding immigration forever and opening up our gates without restrictions.

Sadly the Irish electorate have been duped into believing the EU has been some sort of golden cash cow to Ireland since our membership. The reality is we have been in poverty and recession for 25 of the 35 years we have been in the European union. We managed to escape resession and poverty only when our goverment took the inniatitive to introduce low corporation taxes to entice multi-nationals here. A move I might add that the EU have repeatedly try to fight on every level. The money we did receive from the EU primarily went to the agricultural industry and to finance roads etc. We signed away approx ten times more than what we received by allowing 400 billion euros of our fishing waters to go. 80% of our laws are now directly dictated by Brussels, not to mention that democracy doesnt exists when our NO isnt listened to. Anyway, thats a discussion for another day and another thread.

As you correctly say, the Irish goverment did screw up, and future generations will pay for our idiocity and naivity. Regardless of our idiotic government finally catching up with other nations on their efforts to check up on claims by foreign nationals, the fact remains we still pay millions upon millions in child beefit to Poland, Lithuania etc, etc just because one of the parents works here...why would anyone from Poland etc choose to return home when they are getting double if not trebloe here on welfare than what they would receive on minimum wage at home. I wouldnt !