Non-citizens getting the dole? Time to stop it?

EnigmasWhisper

ejmaztec wrote: »

Based on that dubious generalisation, there would probably be 8 million Irish people in the country as well.

Do ya think ? so then our unemployment levels are close 5% happy days

Alun

Evolute wrote: »

I honestly think that when the jobs go so should the foreigners ...

Yeah, right ...

I'm a foreigner, English in fact. I've been here 8 years now. Before that I lived in Holland for 13 years (where I claimed the dole for a few months once BTW!), before that Germany for 7. In other words, for more than half of my life, and the vast majority of my working life I've benefited from my freedom to work wherever I want in the EU.

Now, I'm lucky enough to be self employed, but if I were in the position of losing my job, where exactly do you suggest I go "back" to? The country I happened to have been born in, but have only worked in for less than 18 months, and therefore have little or no rights to any kind of social security?

It may come as a surprise to you, but not everyone who comes here, or indeed, migrates to any EU country, does so as a purely temporary thing just to make a quick buck. Some do it to make a new life for themselves ... meet someone and maybe get married, have children, put them through school, make friends, buy a house etc. To suggest that the very minute they lose their job they should up sticks and go back to the country they were born in (but possibly have no great ties with any more) is just ridiculous. That's why there's the safety net of the dole for them to avail of, and one that they're quite rightly entitled to IMO, just as much as anyone else, regardless of nationality, who has paid into the system.

EDIT: I should add that my wife (also English) is in full-time employment, and if the worst should come to the worst, and she loses her job, then she will also be fully entitled to claim the dole for as long as necessary, and neither of us will feel in the slightest bit guilty for doing so. Sorry if that upsets some people.

ejmaztec

EnigmasWhisper wrote: »

While I appreciate this thread is about foreign nationals, the wider implications also refer to Irish nationals, genuine Irish welfare claims and Ireland. I do get the 'picture' where the EU is concerned and indeed I have been against the idea of a Europe superstate for many years. It must also be remembered that Irish people blindly voted 'Yes' for both the Mastericht and Nice treaties thus sealing our fate regarding immigration forever and opening up our gates without restrictions.

Sadly the Irish electorate have been duped into believing the EU has been some sort of golden cash cow to Ireland since our membership. The reality is we have been in poverty and recession for 25 of the 35 years we have been in the European union. We managed to escape resession and poverty only when our goverment took the inniatitive to introduce low corporation taxes to entice multi-nationals here. A move I might add that the EU have repeatedly try to fight on every level. The money we did receive from the EU primarily went to the agricultural industry and to finance roads etc. We signed away approx ten times more than what we received by allowing 400 billion euros of our fishing waters to go. 80% of our laws are now directly dictated by Brussels, not to mention that democracy doesnt exists when our NO isnt listened to. Anyway, thats a discussion for another day and another thread.

As you correctly say, the Irish goverment did screw up, and future generations will pay for our idiocity and naivity. Regardless of our idiotic government finally catching up with other nations on their efforts to check up on claims by foreign nationals, the fact remains we still pay millions upon millions in child beefit to Poland, Lithuania etc, etc just because one of the parents works here...why would anyone from Poland etc choose to return home when they are getting double if not trebloe here on welfare than what they would receive on minimum wage at home. I wouldnt !

ejmaztec wrote: »

I've been hearing about this stolen irish fishing industry for a long time (mainly as a result of SimpleSam06, who appears to have disappeared from Boards for some reason). What mystifies me is why it wasn't capitalised on before Ireland joined the EU so that we could all be rolling in the cash generated from it?

On the other hand, a large fishing industry didn't stop Iceland getting into serious financial trouble.

I think that, had Ireland not joined the EU, and despite the fish, it would have been the largest retirement complex in Europe, if not the world.

This is what I said about the stolen fish etc. a few weeks ago. Had it not been for the EU, Ireland would never have emerged from recession.

SWL

EnigmasWhisper wrote: »

Perhaps you might be better served being more worried about the Irish people unfortunate enough to be on the dole. I dont feel the need to be overly concerned about non-nationals, thats their goverments concern.

Our goverment has recently cut wlefare payments to Irish nationals under 20 yrs of age by half, they didnt make any changes to the payments of non-nationals. They have also cut Irish nationals Christmas bonuses and are attempting to change child benefit for Irish nationals also.

I note that they have no plans to change the absurd system whereby we pay millions in child benefits to the children abroad of non nationals living here. This money paid to their respective families abroad is often the equivelant of a months salary there and isnt relative. It disgusts me that our goverment chooses to attack the most vulnerable of Irish society, the elderly. They attempted to introduce cuts to their entitlements to medical cards yet didnt even consider making cuts to this absurd waste of money leaving the country to families not even residing here

I for one am more worried about Irish nationals reading this thread, as they are the ones most likely to be affected by any further cuts in benefits by our dispicable goverment.

Hundreds of thousands of Poles etc came here when we needed them to push our blossoming economy. Unlike other countries who continued to have strict visa restrictions we lifted them all for the new EU members in the naive gamble that our economy would remain static forever. Its a gamble that has now spectacularly backfired and these same non-nationals are now costing us close to 50 million a week in benefits.

Im Irish. Im more worried about my own people, my own family, and my friends . . they are the priority in my thoughts and concerns. Irish people vote for and elect their leaders to represent them firstly, their primary concerns should be with us, Irish nationals.

This is a mentality you will find in every country in the world, they worry about their own first. Unfortunately over the last decade or so in this ridiculous country, a minority feel the need to appologise for this lateral way of thinking which in no small part has us in the mess we are in.

Frankly, I dont give a damn who considers that racist. This 'racist' tag was once thrown at anyone who spoke against the treatment of non-nationals in this country at every opportunity, it doesnt matter anymore. People dont care about being referred to as 'racist' or not,we cant afford to, the days of political correctness are well over.

We are the fools of Europe when it comes to immigration policy and social welfare abuses. I have known Polish people in the past who live in Warsaw yet have their mates sign on for them here every month and collect benefits for them . . . This country is a joke, and I have literaly heard non nationals laugh at our generous welfare system and how its more than they would earn working in their countries of origin. I dont blame them for laughing, I would laugh also, and laugh loud if I was them.

Its time for our goverment to be more concerned about those who elect them than appeasing their EU counterparts.

Irish people are angry, I am sensing it more and more everyday. How that anger will manifest it in our society God only knows, but I suspect it wont be very PC

The best post on this thread, very well put logic common sense - Good to know we as a nation are so concerned about the children of polish nationals, must tell my elderly parents about that, when discussing the lost of their medical cards because they did the correct thing and saved for their retirement through hard hard work, and are now penalised for having a few quid "to bury them

O'Morris

EnigmasWhisper wrote:

While I appreciate this thread is about foreign nationals, the wider implications also refer to Irish nationals, genuine Irish welfare claims and Ireland. I do get the 'picture' where the EU is concerned and indeed I have been against the idea of a Europe superstate for many years. It must also be remembered that Irish people blindly voted 'Yes' for both the Mastericht and Nice treaties thus sealing our fate regarding immigration forever and opening up our gates without restrictions.

Of course we voted no the first time to Nice but we were made vote again. We were assured at the time that we had nothing to worry about, that we'd only see a few thousand east Europeans arriving here at most. The people who suggested otherwise were shouted down as xenophobes and scare-mongers. It's interesting that the same people are still being shouted down as xenophobes even though they have been proved right.

I'm just glad we didn't make the same mistake with the Romanians and the Bulgarians that we did with the Poles. Although I'm sure many of the 'we-is-all-European-now' crowd posting on this thread would have happily thrown open our labour market to them as well. Just think of how high unemployment would be now if we hadn't restricted access to the Romanians and Bulgarians when they were admitted to the EU.

Alun wrote:

To suggest that the very minute they lose their job they should up sticks and go back to the country they were born in

That's kinda what we were led to believe would happen. We were told that the immigrant population was a mobile workforce who would return home once the jobs dried up. I never believed it myself but I did see many of the defenders of our open-borders immigration system make this point in response to claims that the immigration levels were too high.

In addition to price and wage stickiness maybe we should add immigrant stickiness to the list of factors leading to a prolonged recession.

teetotaller

O'Morris wrote: »

I'm just glad we didn't make the same mistake with the Romanians and the Bulgarians that we did with the Poles.

We were told that the immigrant population was a mobile workforce who would return home once the jobs dried up. I never believed it myself but I did see many of the defenders of our open-borders immigration system make this point in response to claims that the immigration levels were too high.

Not nice to read posts like this one.

but... I think that I can understand you Irish people. I would be happy of course when immmigrants would work in Poland paying taxes contributing to economy etc etc but I would not be happy when these people would start getting back these money from social welfare.


One thing that wasn't mentioned here is that a lot of us is here nearly 5 years. 5 years is a lot of taxes - even immigrants who get minimum salary pay taxes - employers pay them. So if somebody after almost 4 or 5 years will get Social Welfare payment for one year he or she won't use all taxes paid in last few years.

Other thing is that immigrants are not only cleaners and builders. In Irish hospitals there are many non Irish doctors, nurses ( Polish doctors and nurses as well) IT specialists chemistry specialists etc etc. - These people for sure helped Ireland and gave big contribution not only in taxes they paid.

Why if they lost their jobs they shouldn't be entitled to get jobseeker benefit ?

Now few words about social welfare system - it is not good
You can't blaim Polish people or any other nation, that they are using benefits they were given by Irish Government. Most of you would do the same - get as much as possible in legal way.

I would blaim only Irish Government.

MY OPINION
- All people who worked over 2 years should be entitled to get jobseeker benefit
- all kids that are in Ireland should get child benefit. No benefit for kids in countries of their parents.
- Strict procedures about giving benefits - Irish government trust too much to all people.

-Person whose idea was to give SW payments to people without their photo id ( only signature and white swipe card) should loose his or her job loooong time ago

- i work hard and pay for bills 150 euro every month. My lazy neighbours don't work and guess who is paying their 350 bills per month ? Why ? if I can spend 150 why they need to spend 350- they don't care govrt will pay their bills, so what for to turn heating off while on holidays??

- Irish goverment is too kind for lazy people. kids benefits, bills benefits, house benefits, medical benefits - unemployed get more money than average employee, who is working very hard for his her money. Why ?

Why on Polish forums I can read threads like - I'm unemployed, get Job seeker payment, house benefit, is there any benefit for MOTOR TAX if i don't have work ?


Please
don't blame people - blame your government who did mistakes.

It wasn't a mistake to open jobs market for us - Ireland was too rich, and government simply didn't think about future. you shouuld blame these people who were not thinking. The good think is that crisis started half a year ago - wait for only more half a year and you will see many immigrants leaving. They won't find work, they will go back to their countries.

( Only house owners who are renting houses to immigrants are praying to keep them in Ireland )



last word - before you start beating EE people and spit on us - Think what Americans think about Irish - taking their jobs and wimmins and eating swans in these difficult crisis days.

Mac daddy

We should have done something similiar to what the Australian's and Canadians do you need X amount of money in your bank before you are allowed in the country.
At least this way they can fall back on their own money, if not send them home.

I have no problems with the Polish & Chinese they don't bother me they work hard and long hours and several jobs fair play to them I say.

But the Nigerians and the rest get rid of them really, same as that sponger who is trying to stay here with her kids.

Ireland was being to greedy years ago when it was all peachy now we are literally paying for it my millions of euro's per week on dole money.
In the process cutting the be jaysus out child benefit and under 20's dole money and many many others, and poxy income levy.

Still believe the worst thing Ireland ever did was joining the EU and loosing the Irish pound we should have not have gotten rid of it....
Have a read of this : http://digg.com/d1o7qz

teetotaller

Mac daddy wrote: »

We should have done something similiar to what the Australian's and Canadians do you need X amount of money in your bank before you are allowed in the country.
At least this way they can fall back on their own money, if not send them home.

Maybe you are right, but then nobody would arrive here. If people would have big amount on their account they wouldn't need to go to Ireland.

Let me tell you something - I arrived here in June 2004 with 430euros in my pocket. At the begining my employer was paying tax for me cos I was on low income. Now every month I pay more tax than monthly job seeker benefit. - Ireland wouldn't have chance to get good tax payer

I would see it different way - no money on bank account but points for knowledge of English language, college, experience, occupation

sometimes I'm really sad, mad and angry, when I see people from my country - they are here 5 years, taking SW payment, but with no chance to get new job - after 5 years they still can't say more then hello how are you.

ionix5891

Mac daddy wrote: »

We should have done something similiar to what the Australian's and Canadians do you need X amount of money in your bank before you are allowed in the country.
At least this way they can fall back on their own money, if not send them home.

I have no problems with the Polish & Chinese they don't bother me they work hard and long hours and several jobs fair play to them I say.

But the Nigerians and the rest get rid of them really, same as that sponger who is trying to stay here with her kids.

Ireland was being to greedy years ago when it was all peachy now we are literally paying for it my millions of euro's per week on dole money.
In the process cutting the be jaysus out child benefit and under 20's dole money and many many others, and poxy income levy.

Still believe the worst thing Ireland ever did was joining the EU and loosing the Irish pound we should have not have gotten rid of it....
Have a read of this : http://digg.com/d1o7qz

http://bnp.org.uk/2009/04/the-european-union-has-poisoned-the-celtic-tiger/

you posted a hidden link to the BNP website OMG :eek: people beware before clicking! these people are actually happy of being ignorant racist p***ks hiding behind a nationalist movement

anyways if we had the punt now and not the euro we would have ended up in a worse situation than the other small island (the name starts with an I as well) in the Atlantic that went on a big binge

.

djpbarry

Mac daddy wrote: »

But the Nigerians and the rest get rid of them really...

Yeah, especially all those Nigerian doctors, nurses and social workers - we've no need for people like that, eh?

Mac daddy wrote: »

Still believe the worst thing Ireland ever did was joining the EU and loosing the Irish pound we should have not have gotten rid of it....

There is simply no way that an economy the size of Ireland’s would be better off right now with a currency of its own; look at how much value Sterling has lost recently.

teetotaller

Mac daddy wrote: »

In the process cutting the be jaysus out child benefit and under 20's dole money and many many others, and poxy income levy.

Under 20's dole cut is a good thing.
It is not fair that young people who want's to achieve something in their life and are learning and studing very hard get nothing- only bills to pay and lazy same age people get money from SW.

jank

djpbarry wrote: »

Yeah, especially all those Nigerian doctors, nurses and social workers - we've no need for people like that, eh?
There is simply no way that an economy the size of Ireland’s would be better off right now with a currency of its own; look at how much value Sterling has lost recently.

Many would disagree with you. If we had the Irish pound we would be able to devalue our currency and get our competitiveness back straight away rather then wait for 2 years for slow deflation to take place.

Then again we might be ****ed if we weren't in the euro so its hard to say. Iceland V2.0

ionix5891

jank wrote: »

Many would disagree with you. If we had the Irish pound we would be able to devalue our currency and get our competitiveness back straight away rather then wait for 2 years for slow deflation to take place.

Then again we might be ****ed if we weren't in the euro so its hard to say. Iceland V2.0

Devalue to what? bankruptcy??

UK are trying to do that but they are a much bigger economy and look how that's going for them, jebus they are now printing money to finance government spend thats just wrong on so many economic levels

Iceland is a prime of example as of to why us joining the euro was probably best decision taken in this country, They weren't part of EU and weren't governed by EU interest rates, yet they still managed to build-up a huge bubble, you think we would have been any better?

Anyone old enough to live thru the devaluation of the punt in early 90s will tell you exactly where to shove your devaluation opinion

O'Morris

teetotaller wrote:

even immigrants who get minimum salary pay taxes - employers pay them.

It's not really the same thing though. It's not the workers themselves paying taxes out of their own wages. It's their employers paying it for them which is a different thing.

teetotaller wrote:

It wasn't a mistake to open jobs market for us

I disagree. I think it was a massive mistake.

Do you think it was a mistake for us to restrict access to the Romanians and the Bulgarians or would we be in a better position now if we hadn't imposed restrictions?

teetotaller wrote:

It wasn't a mistake to open jobs market for us - Ireland was too rich, and government simply didn't think about future. you shouuld blame these people who were not thinking. The good think is that crisis started half a year ago - wait for only more half a year and you will see many immigrants leaving.

I think the opposite will happen. The more months that pass the more non-nationals will be eligible to receive welfare.

teetotaller wrote:

Why if they lost their jobs they shouldn't be entitled to get jobseeker benefit?

Because they're not Irish citizens and they're not our responsibility. They should receive in welfare what they have already given in taxes and no more.

teetotaller wrote:

You can't blaim Polish people or any other nation, that they are using benefits they were given by Irish Government. Most of you would do the same - get as much as possible in legal way.

I agree and I don't blame Polish people or any other group of immigrants. It's like people complaining about traffic congestion. They're not blaming the motorists on the road for the traffic. They're blaming the people who let the problem get out of control through bad planning. It's the same with immigration. The government is to blame for the problems of immigration, not the immigrants themselves.

djpbarry wrote:

There is simply no way that an economy the size of Ireland’s would be better off right now with a currency of its own;

Really, do you have anything to back that up?

If we had a currency of our own and if we had control over our own monetary policy we would be able to devalue our currency and that would help stimulate the economy by making our exports more competitive.

Read this article by David McWilliams.
http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2009/03/04/we-bet-the-lot-on-casino-capitalism-and-lost

David McWilliams wrote:

Ireland has abandoned macroeconomics and is now being run by mantras, which allow our leaders to avoid honestly assessing our situation.

Ideally, we would devalue our currency and print money to get us out of this mess. We should also increase government investment, not reduce it. This is after all the core of macroeconomic theory as I learnt it.

When you have a liquidity problem where the people are hoarding, not spending, the state takes up the reins and spends. This is what every country did in the 1930s and goes to the heart of the response to the crisis which President Obama unveiled last week. But the Irish government is trapped, we have got ourselves into a stupid situation whereby we can neither devalue nor spend excessively. Therefore, our present European arrangement is the worst of all worlds.

SWL

teetotaller wrote: »

Not nice to read posts like this one.

but... I think that I can understand you Irish people. I would be happy of course when immmigrants would work in Poland paying taxes contributing to economy etc etc but I would not be happy when these people would start getting back these money from social welfare.


One thing that wasn't mentioned here is that a lot of us is here nearly 5 years. 5 years is a lot of taxes - even immigrants who get minimum salary pay taxes - employers pay them. So if somebody after almost 4 or 5 years will get Social Welfare payment for one year he or she won't use all taxes paid in last few years.

Other thing is that immigrants are not only cleaners and builders. In Irish hospitals there are many non Irish doctors, nurses ( Polish doctors and nurses as well) IT specialists chemistry specialists etc etc. - These people for sure helped Ireland and gave big contribution not only in taxes they paid.

Why if they lost their jobs they shouldn't be entitled to get jobseeker benefit ?

Now few words about social welfare system - it is not good
You can't blaim Polish people or any other nation, that they are using benefits they were given by Irish Government. Most of you would do the same - get as much as possible in legal way.

I would blaim only Irish Government.

MY OPINION
- All people who worked over 2 years should be entitled to get jobseeker benefit
- all kids that are in Ireland should get child benefit. No benefit for kids in countries of their parents.
- Strict procedures about giving benefits - Irish government trust too much to all people.

-Person whose idea was to give SW payments to people without their photo id ( only signature and white swipe card) should loose his or her job loooong time ago

- i work hard and pay for bills 150 euro every month. My lazy neighbours don't work and guess who is paying their 350 bills per month ? Why ? if I can spend 150 why they need to spend 350- they don't care govrt will pay their bills, so what for to turn heating off while on holidays??

- Irish goverment is too kind for lazy people. kids benefits, bills benefits, house benefits, medical benefits - unemployed get more money than average employee, who is working very hard for his her money. Why ?

Why on Polish forums I can read threads like - I'm unemployed, get Job seeker payment, house benefit, is there any benefit for MOTOR TAX if i don't have work ?


Please
don't blame people - blame your government who did mistakes.

It wasn't a mistake to open jobs market for us - Ireland was too rich, and government simply didn't think about future. you shouuld blame these people who were not thinking. The good think is that crisis started half a year ago - wait for only more half a year and you will see many immigrants leaving. They won't find work, they will go back to their countries.

( Only house owners who are renting houses to immigrants are praying to keep them in Ireland )



last word - before you start beating EE people and spit on us - Think what Americans think about Irish - taking their jobs and wimmins and eating swans in these difficult crisis days.

People don’t pay taxes to get it back at some stage; they are paid to pay for services for society as a whole. I will never get back of my taxes but so what, it’s called a modern society


Everybody pays taxes, you or non nationals are not alone on this, in fact the Irish pay more given that they make on average more than a non national across the job spectrum, Non nationals have helped Ireland - but they also got opportunities and a chance to make in their own currency "Real" money so I think trying to portray that its a one way street, is short sighted.


Sorry but I totally disagree with this, the fact that you and others on boards blame the Irish Government for Polish and others to abuse the SW system which is there to provide for people, because they set it up is pathetic, Do people not have self control or a degree of morality, "oh I had to take the money because the system is there to be taken advantage of” while society as a whole suffers. Sorry just not good enough.


How do you know how much there bills are, and maybe they have paid taxes also, bit of a generalisation


Do you mean Irish or Polish?

Sorry not good enough, I blame the people taking the piss, the government is trying to balance genuine humane e treatment for individuals in society - if they stopped payments would you still blame them



Generalisation and one of the most insulting things I have read, I would like to think most Irish people who are usually fair minded and generous won't go around spitting on people because they are EE. They did open the Job to EE, don't add up

djpbarry

jank wrote: »

If we had the Irish pound we would be able to devalue our currency and get our competitiveness back straight away rather then wait for 2 years for slow deflation to take place.

Exactly – we would have ourselves a quick fix rather than having to address the fundamental weaknesses in the economy. Suppose we could devalue the currency and in five years time we were right back in this situation again. What then? Devalue the currency again?

O'Morris

ionix5891 wrote:

Devalue to what? bankruptcy??

Devalue to a level that makes our exports competitive on the European market. Our economy is heavily dependent on exports to the EU as well as on tourism and so we need to lower the costs of our goods and services so that they will become less expensive than the products produced by our competitors. Devaluing our currency will help us to do that more effectively than waiting for wages to fall by themselves.

ionix5891 wrote:

UK are trying to do that but they are a much bigger economy and look how that's going for them

Ask any retailer in Newry or Belfast how well it's going for them. I would be surprised if any of them will express any disappointment at the weak pound relative to the Euro.

ionix5891 wrote:

they are now printing money to finance government spend thats just wrong on so many economic levels

They obviously believe that printing money is the way out of the problem. If they didn't believe that they wouldn't be doing it. At least they have the option to do what they think is in their economy's best interests. We on the other don't have the option to do what we believe to be in our economy's best interests as our monetary policy is set by a foreign central bank. If the best economic advice told us that we should devalue we would still be powerless to act on that advice.

ionix5891

our little conversation here is sort of gone offtopic

anyways

O'Morris wrote: »

Devalue to a level that makes our exports competitive on the European market. Our economy is heavily dependent on exports to the EU as well as on tourism and so we need to lower the costs of our goods and services so that they will become less expensive than the products produced by our competitors. Devaluing our currency will help us to do that more effectively than waiting for wages to fall by themselves.
.

instead of messing around with currency why not address the root problem with our economic trouble by *GASP! lowering wages and cost of living

O'Morris wrote: »

Ask any retailer in Newry or Belfast how well it's going for them. I would be surprised if any of them will express any disappointment at the weak pound relative to the Euro.

ask any saver or anyone with pension in pounds or investor in UK how well they feel since last year loosing 30% more of their investments

O'Morris wrote: »

They obviously believe that printing money is the way out of the problem. If they didn't believe that they wouldn't be doing it. At least they have the option to do what they think is in their economy's best interests. We on the other don't have the option to do what we believe to be in our economy's best interests as our monetary policy is set by a foreign central bank. If the best economic advice told us that we should devalue we would still be powerless to act on that advice.

printing money is the most foolish thing a country can do EVER (and is a bomb if done wrong) its an effective tax an all the other money in the system, its the ultimate stealth tax which once again hurts savers and investors most, the very same people that are required for long term economic stability and growth not encouraging more mindless debt that will cause us to be back at square one in a decade yet again


what UK government are doing is an economic equivalent of "Cutting off the nose to spite the face"

once again ask anyone who live thru the devaluation of the punt and the pound in early 90s about how that go

devaluation is fine when you have a strong economy Ireland is no UK and a lot closer to Iceland than you think

.

ionix5891

btw you want to see what happens when a currency is kept artificially low to encourage exports?

look at china

they are keeping their population very poor so they can continue lending money to america and keeping them hooked on their cheep import


currency manipulation via devaluation or money printing means messing with the free market and this always leads to issues and all sorts of nasty unforeseen events

markesmith

I think that history will record our current problems as caused by those at the top of the foodchain, not at the bottom. Developers, politicians, those who thought that unfettered free-market capitalism will deliver the greatest level of happiness to the most people.

Persecuting foreigners is counter-productive. At best it's scapegoating, and at worse you're playing a dangerous game that could lead to the kind of thing they're whooping about on Stormfront.org.

Maybe we should target our ire at the real cause of this current malaise in society and Western economies. Foreigners contributed well to this country. Welfare fraud by foreigners is nothing on that being perpetrated by us Irish. Come on, we all know someone who's at it.

And also, please stop with the "foreign nationals"/"non-nationals"/"non-citizens" tags. The last one in particular smacks of Orwellian language. I mean, how can you be a non-citizen? Unless you're a non-human. Like my lovely golden retriever. Just call them foreigners - that's what they are, and it's just one word.

Heineken Helen

teetotaller wrote: »

Marti8

Thank you for being so generous.

I'm from Poland, I live in Dublin nearly 5 years and so far I paid over 35k in taxes so far. If I'd loose my job, I could go claim SW benefit and governent would have to pay me benefits for 35000/800 = 3,5 years on dole

Great news for me I won't get SW benefit paid for 1 year as it is at the moment but for 3,5 years !!

I'd like to remind you my Irish friends that not everyone from Eastern Europe works as kitchen porter, cleaner or waitress. Also not everyone send every penny back to Poland. Myself after 5 years in Ireland I have 500 euro on my Polish account. everything else is here. I got married here, My wife is going to give birth here as well, and we spend our money here in Ireland.

I'm pretty sure that these people who scream loudest do their shopping in Northern Ireland and spend a lot of money abroad while on holidays. and that is how they contribute to Irish economy.

I feel very embarassed when I read threats like this and almost all people write that we don't contribute to your ( our ) economy. I don't like when I read that we all work for minimum wages and shop only in Polish shops. I don't like as well when I read that we live 10 people in 2 bed house and we don't help Irish people to pay their morgages.

Maybe that was a true but few years ago - just after we arrived. Now all my friends from Poland live on their own, spend money in Irish shops support SW beneficients, buy cars ( helping Irish people to get 09cars) etc etc.

When everything is allright you are happy to have us here, you are happy to be managers not just company staff, you are saying that Polish people are hard working people- if you don't remember check threads that were written few years ago. Now situation is bad and you simply say - go away why ?

Did some of you already forgot what was situation in Ireland just over 10 years ago and how much help you got from other countries ?
Don't forget that many companies in Ireland are not Irish owned companies. Usually UK and US - tell them also to go away and fcuk off - they are not Irish are they ?


one more thing

I'm a member of Polish forums as well, and I read every day about people who lost their jobs, about job seekers benefits about social welfare payments - and some of these people are just lazy, they don't want to work they are happy with SW "salaries"
but whose fault is this ?

I think that it is only Irish government's fault

I read about people who are back in Poland and their friends are collecting and sending them their SW payments why is this possible ?
Why at the post office nobody was checking documents when somebody wanted to collect money ? only SW swipe card and signature.....

I work very hard, but got very irritated after I spoke to my neighbours She is Irish, He is from EE country, they have a kid.

They both don't work and don't want to work - they get SW payments, government pay for their rent, they get paid their bills. Bills - I try to not to use too much gas or electricity average is about 100 - 150 euro every month. My neighbours bills who live in the same type of house are over 350 every month - they don't care government pay for this........

construction collapsy - who allowed to increase house prices so much in last few years ? Simple answer - government

last edit

If Polish or EE person earn minimum wage - it doesn't mean that he or she doesn't contribute to Irish economy. That person simply allows his or her boss to have better income and employer pays more tax, prsi, employer spend more money in Irish shops.


last thing about government - It is nearly one year that becouse of weak Pound Irish shops are not competetive to Northern Ireland shops. What Government did to change it ?

Government increased taxes for alcohol, cigarettes and other goods.

I was in Newry last week. I checked plates on cars outside shopping centre
D, D, D, D Mh, LH, D NORTHERN IRELAND, D, D, D, D, D, D

If you want to help your country ask government and companies in Ireland to reduce taxes to UK level and reduce prices.

We could really do with you in government... I'd vote for ya

Evolute

Alun wrote: »

Yeah, right ...

I'm a foreigner, English in fact. I've been here 8 years now. Before that I lived in Holland for 13 years (where I claimed the dole for a few months once BTW!), before that Germany for 7. In other words, for more than half of my life, and the vast majority of my working life I've benefited from my freedom to work wherever I want in the EU.

Now, I'm lucky enough to be self employed, but if I were in the position of losing my job, where exactly do you suggest I go "back" to? The country I happened to have been born in, but have only worked in for less than 18 months, and therefore have little or no rights to any kind of social security?

It may come as a surprise to you, but not everyone who comes here, or indeed, migrates to any EU country, does so as a purely temporary thing just to make a quick buck. Some do it to make a new life for themselves ... meet someone and maybe get married, have children, put them through school, make friends, buy a house etc. To suggest that the very minute they lose their job they should up sticks and go back to the country they were born in (but possibly have no great ties with any more) is just ridiculous. That's why there's the safety net of the dole for them to avail of, and one that they're quite rightly entitled to IMO, just as much as anyone else, regardless of nationality, who has paid into the system.

EDIT: I should add that my wife (also English) is in full-time employment, and if the worst should come to the worst, and she loses her job, then she will also be fully entitled to claim the dole for as long as necessary, and neither of us will feel in the slightest bit guilty for doing so. Sorry if that upsets some people.

You gonna get treated aswell in all the other countrys you have lived in other then here and England?

damonjewel

Evolute wrote: »

You gonna get treated aswell in all the other countrys you have lived in other then here and England?

I dont know what you are driving at here, I like Alun had worked in Holland for a considerable period and had no problem getting a National insurance (SOFI) number, claiming child benefit for my child who lived in Ireland, and reclaiming taxes when I left the country. I didn't sign on there but the Dutch system treated me quite well, they even spoke to me in English, could you imagine an Irish worker in the Revenue\Social welfare office explaining things to applicants in another language.

marti8

markesmith wrote: »

I think that history will record our current problems as caused by those at the top of the foodchain, not at the bottom. Developers, politicians, those who thought that unfettered free-market capitalism will deliver the greatest level of happiness to the most people.

Persecuting foreigners is counter-productive. At best it's scapegoating, and at worse you're playing a dangerous game that could lead to the kind of thing they're whooping about on Stormfront.org.

Maybe we should target our ire at the real cause of this current malaise in society and Western economies. Foreigners contributed well to this country. Welfare fraud by foreigners is nothing on that being perpetrated by us Irish. Come on, we all know someone who's at it.

And also, please stop with the "foreign nationals"/"non-nationals"/"non-citizens" tags. The last one in particular smacks of Orwellian language. I mean, how can you be a non-citizen? Unless you're a non-human. Like my lovely golden retriever. Just call them foreigners - that's what they are, and it's just one word.

How can you be a non-citizen? Is this a trick question, lol? Citizen equates to citizenship.....foreign nationals (and I am excluding the UK for reasons I have mentioned 102 times before) on the dole in Ireland are not Irish citizens, so by definition they are "non-citizens", when I worked in Poland I was a "non-citizen", yes, I was also a "non-national" and a "foreign national" and a "foreigner", what word someone uses makes little difference. When folks, myself included, refer to other folks as "non-citizen" it isn't meant in a degrogatory way, not from me at least.

And I and others are not persecuting foreigners, I am very clearly saying the problem lies with the government, they created it, they can fix it. As an Irish citizen I have every right to scrutinise public policy, and if I don't like what I see I have every right to voice my opposition to it.....it's called democracy.

And to suggest that questioning the social welfare entitlements of foreigners is somehow akin to chatter on stormfront_org is ridiculous. Let those facists talk about whatever they want, I assure you I have views very different to them and I can assure you they don't like socialists, which I consider myself. The instant labelling convention is in recess, these days one can question what this thread is about without being a racist or a xenophobe. It is called looking out for Ireland and Irish people. It's not racist, it's common sense.

And yes, you are right we are in this messed up situation because of unbridled capitalism, ideally I'd like to see a redistribution of wealth but I am realistic and it is very unlikely that is going to happen.

ionix5891

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/noneu-workers-face-tough-rules-in-permit-clampdown-1710140.html

Employers will have to prove they have made strenuous efforts to fill any post being made available to a foreign worker with a worker already in this country. And no work permits will be issued for jobs that pay under €30,000 a year.

Hobbes

SWL wrote: »

People don’t pay taxes to get it back at some stage; they are paid to pay for services for society as a whole.

And those people are part of the society as a whole, therefore would be entitled to taxes back. Not always as cash but certainly back in some way or another.

djpbarry

marti8 wrote: »

And to suggest that questioning the social welfare entitlements of foreigners is somehow akin to chatter on stormfront_org is ridiculous.

If you left the word “foreigners” out of that sentence then I might be more inclined to agree with you.

marti8 wrote: »

It is called looking out for Ireland and Irish people. It's not racist, it's common sense.

It’s common sense to place the interests of Irish people above those of foreigners?

Alun

ionix5891 wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/noneu-workers-face-tough-rules-in-permit-clampdown-1710140.html

That's for non-EU workers that need work-permits though, and is just a tightening up of the rules already in place that were never applied properly as far as I can see. They can't legally discriminate against workers from other EU countries.

Alun

Evolute wrote: »

You gonna get treated aswell in all the other countrys you have lived in other then here and England?

I think so. Do you have any reason to suspect that I wouldn't ? As I said, I dealt with the Dutch system when I was made redundant over there once, and it all went smoothly and without problems. I have no reason to suspect that the system would have been any different in Germany.

marti8

Hobbes wrote: »

And those people are part of the society as a whole, therefore would be entitled to taxes back. Not always as cash but certainly back in some way or another.

Monge tou! Here's a nouvelle idea.....give EU nationals the tax back which they have paid by way of social welfare payments should they need it!?! What a crazyyyyy idea, sure it'd never work, boy......:rolleyes: