Non-citizens getting the dole? Time to stop it?

marti8

djpbarry wrote: »

If you left the word “foreigners” out of that sentence then I might be more inclined to agree with you.
It’s common sense to place the interests of Irish people above those of foreigners?

Ok you got me, I'll replace the word "foreigner" with "non-national"....there ya go now

And yes, given the state of affairs Ireland is in today it makes very good sense to put the interests of Irish people first, imho.

marti8

Alun wrote: »

That's for non-EU workers that need work-permits though, and is just a tightening up of the rules already in place that were never applied properly as far as I can see. They can't legally discriminate against workers from other EU countries.

Yes, the government can't discriminate against other EU nationals but what they can do, in fact they already do it, is increase the 2 year qualifying period to say 5 or 6 or 7 or 10......so, in such an instance an EU national could not claim dole as they now can after working for 2 years rather it could be upto 10 years! There is nothing illegal in doing that (as far as I am aware), as they already "discriminate" with the 2 year rule......

Where on earth did they pluck the 2 year rule from in the first place?!!!

djpbarry

marti8 wrote: »

Ok you got me, I'll replace the word "foreigner" with "non-national"....there ya go now

Not what I was getting at.

marti8 wrote: »

And yes, given the state of affairs Ireland is in today it makes very good sense to put the interests of Irish people first, imho.

So you are advocating discrimination against foreigners. Why is this “good sense”?

marti8 wrote: »

There is nothing illegal in doing that (as far as I am aware), as they already "discriminate" with the 2 year rule......

Eh, that rule applies to Irish people too. You have to make a certain number of PRSI contributions before you can make claims.

marti8

djpbarry wrote: »

Not what I was getting at.
So you are advocating discrimination against foreigners. Why is this “good sense”?
Eh, that rule applies to Irish people too. You have to make a certain number of PRSI contributions before you can make claims.

Yes, I know

It is good sense to put Irish people first for the simple reason that there is X ammount of money in the social welfare kitty and that X ammount has to be distributed between everyone who recieves social welfare, now, with tens of thousands non-nationals on the dole that leaves less in the pot for Irish citizens......So, from a selfish point of view, and I readily admit it is selfish, it makes more sense for there to be more money for Irish people than for there being less money for Irish peple and foreigners combined....

And no, as far as I know any Irish person who cannot find a job can sign on, an Irish person doesn't have to have worked for 2 years, not to get UA or whatever it's called these days (JA?) Maybe for benefit but not for assistance.

Oh, I see you are a moderator, listen to this: a poster calls me "fool", "ignorant", "nazi" and I can't remember what else, I don't report the post - couldn't be bothered - and I reply by saying they are "immature"....and, lol....lol....I get a warning (or whatever it's called) Now that's funny.......

O'Morris

djpbarry wrote:

So you are advocating discrimination against foreigners. Why is this “good sense”?

We're supposed to discriminate against foreigners, just as a father is supposed to discriminate between his children and his next-door neighbour's children. Every country in the world affords to it's citizens privileges that it wouldn't be able to afford extending to the rest of the world's population.

We'll need to either completely reform the welfare system so that people are given well below the bare subsistence or we need to limit the system we have to our own citizens. With the hole we're in we just can't afford to be supporting tens of thousands of people who aren't citizens of this country. It will cost us hundreds of millions this year just to support the eastern Europeans.

djpbarry

marti8 wrote: »

So, from a selfish point of view, and I readily admit it is selfish, it makes more sense for there to be more money for Irish people than for there being less money for Irish peple and foreigners combined....

So it’s purely a selfish, nationalist position? That’s not really “good sense”, is it? “Good sense” would be based on a sound, rational argument, would it not?

marti8 wrote: »

And no, as far as I know any Irish person who cannot find a job can sign on...

Not exactly:

Jobseeker's Benefit is a weekly payment made to people who are out of work and covered by social insurance (PRSI). Jobseeker's Benefit was called Unemployment Benefit; the name of the payment changed in 2006. If you don't qualify for Jobseeker's Benefit you may qualify for Jobseeker's Allowance.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/social-welfare/social-welfare-payments/unemployed-people/unemployment_benefit

marti8 wrote: »

Oh, I see you are a moderator...

Not on this forum.

ejmaztec

If I were a EU non-national, and I had, for example, paid contributions for 5 years, I would consider it grossly unfair that an Irish national with 4 year's contributions under his belt would be treated better than I, were I to lose my job.

marti8

djpbarry wrote: »

So it’s purely a selfish, nationalist position? That’s not really “good sense”, is it? “Good sense” would be based on a sound, rational argument, would it not?
Not exactly:

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/social-welfare/social-welfare-payments/unemployed-people/unemployment_benefit
Not on this forum.

I see nothing wrong with having a nationalist viewpoint, as far as I am concerned it makes good sense in relation to social welfare and non-nationals. Now, you may not see it as good sense to save hundreds of millions of euro each year but I certainly do. Currently we have somewhere in the region of 42,000 nationals from the "new" EU States on the dole (CSO figures for March 2009), if that number DOESN'T increase, we'll be paying out over half a billion euro in social welfare to those 42,000 non-nationals each year. HALF A BILLION EURO EACH YEAR, at a time when the country is in deep financial trouble. And that is just on dole, never mind rent allowance, medical cards and so on. Are we complete and utter fools? Now, do I believe it's about time Ireland and Irish people came first, YES.

And Irish people do not have to have "stamps" to claim dole they can get jobseekers allowance. They only need to have "stamps" to get jobseekers benefit. So, the Irish State already "discriminates" against non-nationals with the 2 year qualifying rule, so they can extend it, 10 years sounds good. Not ideal but a move in the right direction.

EnigmasWhisper

damonjewel wrote: »

I dont know what you are driving at here, I like Alun had worked in Holland for a considerable period and had no problem getting a National insurance (SOFI) number, claiming child benefit for my child who lived in Ireland, and reclaiming taxes when I left the country. I didn't sign on there but the Dutch system treated me quite well, they even spoke to me in English, could you imagine an Irish worker in the Revenue\Social welfare office explaining things to applicants in another language.

Firstly, not all countries are so easy to get a national Insurance number in, try Spain or Poland, you would wait months.

Why should an Irish person working in a state body here be multi lingual ? By the same token I assume you might expect someone in the Nigerian Welfare office to speak in fluent Polish to someone from Poland ? Anyone wishing to come and work or claim benefits in an english speaking country would be expected to at least have taken the effort to learn the language. Having someone speak to you in english, in a European country is hardly an exception or wonderful. The english language is considered a universal language and indeed has long been made a mandatory language in the curriculum of every EU state.

Dont be silly

EnigmasWhisper

djpbarry wrote: »

So it’s purely a selfish, nationalist position? That’s not really “good sense”, is it? “Good sense” would be based on a sound, rational argument, would it not?

What sensible rational argument are you putting forward ? While other posters may deem it 'selfish' for a nation to put its electorate and own citizens first, I dont. Its an approach adopted by every nation on earth for as long as time itself, and it will continue. For anyone to suggest that it is anyway selfish, or not 'good sense' is as absurd as it is ridiculous.

djpbarry

marti8 wrote: »

do I believe it's about time Ireland and Irish people came first, YES.

Ok, hypothetical situation. A person (person ‘A’) has been working in Ireland for six years, earning well above the average wage and has never claimed a single cent in welfare in the time that they have lived in Ireland. A second person (person ‘B’) is 27 years old, hasn’t worked a day in their lives and has been claiming <insert welfare benefit here> from the state since they were 18.

Now, to me, should the need arise, person ‘A’ is perfectly entitled to state assistance, far more so than person ‘B’ in fact, regardless of their respective nationalities. Are you telling me that, if it should happen that person A is foreign and person B is Irish, that person B is more entitled to state assistance than person A, should the need arise?

marti8 wrote: »

And Irish people do not have to have "stamps" to claim dole they can get jobseekers allowance.

If they pass the means test, yes. But the same applies to all EU citizens.

djpbarry

EnigmasWhisper wrote: »

What sensible rational argument are you putting forward ?

If a person contributes to society, they are entitled to assistance from society, should they require it; nationality doesn’t come into it.

damonjewel

EnigmasWhisper wrote: »

Firstly, not all countries are so easy to get a national Insurance number in, try Spain or Poland, you would wait months.

Why should an Irish person working in a state body here be multi lingual ? By the same token I assume you might expect someone in the Nigerian Welfare office to speak in fluent Polish to someone from Poland ? Anyone wishing to come and work or claim benefits in an english speaking country would be expected to at least have taken the effort to learn the language. Having someone speak to you in english, in a European country is hardly an exception or wonderful. The english language is considered a universal language and indeed has long been made a mandatory language in the curriculum of every EU state.

Dont be silly

Actually I have a tax number from Spain, it took me two weeks to arrange.

My point about the dutch social services was that they were kind and considerate, and entertained my enquiries despite the fact I have not a word in Dutch. And any social services\revenue office I have dealt with, and I have claimed tax in quite a few countries have been equally considerate. Your point seems to be that the Irish social services\revenue commissioners are especially helpful to foreigners whilst the countries they come from would not reciprocate this helpfulness. Its not the case I've found, I have paid taxes in 5 seperate countries within the EU.

Of couse I dont expect every Social/Revenue worker to be multi-lingual, that would be silly

marti8

djpbarry wrote: »

Ok, hypothetical situation. A person (person ‘A’) has been working in Ireland for six years, earning well above the average wage and has never claimed a single cent in welfare in the time that they have lived in Ireland. A second person (person ‘B’) is 27 years old, hasn’t worked a day in their lives and has been claiming <insert welfare benefit here> from the state since they were 18.

Now, to me, should the need arise, person ‘A’ is perfectly entitled to state assistance, far more so than person ‘B’ in fact, regardless of their respective nationalities. Are you telling me that, if it should happen that person A is foreign and person B is Irish, that person B is more entitled to state assistance than person A, should the need arise?
If they pass the means test, yes. But the same applies to all EU citizens.

I have always said that a non-national who HAS paid tax should be entitled to get that ammount "paid back" to them by way of social welfare should they need it............And an Irish person should by virtue of citizenship be entitled to social welfare should they need it.

Now I may be very wrong and if I am that's fine, I'll readily recognise my error but as far as I know NO non-national (excluding the UK for reasons I have outlined before) can get social welfare unless they have worked for at least 2 years......as I said I may be wrong on that but as far as I know they are the rules.

For example, a Latvian can't just jump off the plane at Dublin airport and sign on the dole! They have to have worked for 2 years.

marti8

djpbarry wrote: »

If a person contributes to society, they are entitled to assistance from society, should they require it; nationality doesn’t come into it.

Nationality DOES come into it. The first duty of the IRISH State is to the IRISH people. The first duty of the POLISH State is to the POLISH people and so on and so on.......

EnigmasWhisper

djpbarry wrote: »

If a person contributes to society, they are entitled to assistance from society, should they require it; nationality doesn’t come into it.

To a degree yes, I agree.

I also make no appologies in repeating the sensible assertion that every nation in the world does, and must, put its own people first. My family, my friends, my people, my country are my priority. I believe you will find similar sentiments amongst every people and govermental administration in the world.

The Irish people who elected their leaders, to represent them are their number one priority. Any assistance a person from a foreign nation requires from our goverment should be considered only when the needs and wefare of our people are addressed firstly. Depending on your measure of nationality and world economics and accepted govermental procedures 'nationaltiy' does indeed come into it, like it or not....thats the way the world works. If you accept it or loathe it, 'nations' and 'nationality' are both necessary components of our existance working in tandum.

One who doesnt accept the simple facts that govern every country in the world, not to mention society, should perhaps lay on a bed singing verses of John lennons 'imagine'. Whilst at the same time dreaming of a eutopic place where nations, borders, cultures, goverments, immigration laws, politics, national identities and society cease to exist.

EnigmasWhisper

damonjewel wrote: »

Actually I have a tax number from Spain, it took me two weeks to arrange.

My point about the dutch social services was that they were kind and considerate, and entertained my enquiries despite the fact I have not a word in Dutch. And any social services\revenue office I have dealt with, and I have claimed tax in quite a few countries have been equally considerate. Your point seems to be that the Irish social services\revenue commissioners are especially helpful to foreigners whilst the countries they come from would not reciprocate this helpfulness. Its not the case I've found, I have paid taxes in 5 seperate countries within the EU.

Of couse I dont expect every Social/Revenue worker to be multi-lingual, that would be silly

Really :eek: Well done, it took me 2 months to get a tax number in Spain. That considering my gf at the time was Spanish, and she helped with all the red tape. Not only me, but I knew countless others who experienced the same difficulty, you were indeed lucky or things have improved there.

Im not sure that a prerequisite of a welfare employee should be kindness and to be of a considerate disposition, If I want kindness and consideration I visit my grandmother. You will find that welfare workers in Ireland will address all ones questions and queries also, that is their job description. I have been unfortunate enough to be on the dole in the past, and found the welfare officers more than pleasant and helpful to me, although they didnt go so far as to hug me.

I believe our welfare system is more than friendly and welcoming to foreigners already. I doubt another welfare system in the world doesnt require photographic identification when collecting money or signing on, I know a lot of foreigners find that very sweet and friendly. Did you know that in Poland and Nigeria our welfare officers are considered the friendliest people in the world ? So friendly that Polish people can fly in and out once a month to sign here, and have welfare paid to them back in their respective countries every week !

My point is that people dont expect to find a friend in a social welfare office. Another point being that its not considered exceptional to be spoken to in english in any european country.

Then again, if a foreigner is willing to get less welfare but with a smile elsewhere . . . . bon voyage !

djpbarry

marti8 wrote: »

And an Irish person should by virtue of citizenship be entitled to social welfare should they need it.

I just don’t understand this attitude, this sense of “entitlement”. This, in my opinion, is one of the greatest burdens on the state.

marti8 wrote: »

Now I may be very wrong and if I am that's fine, I'll readily recognise my error but as far as I know NO non-national (excluding the UK for reasons I have outlined before) can get social welfare unless they have worked for at least 2 years......as I said I may be wrong on that but as far as I know they are the rules.

I suggest you read the information in the link I provided earlier; discriminating against EU nationals on the basis of nationality is a contravention of EU law.

EnigmasWhisper wrote: »

My family, my friends, my people, my country are my priority. I believe you will find similar sentiments amongst every people and govermental administration in the world.

Suppose some of your family and/or friends happen to be a different nationality to you?

EnigmasWhisper wrote: »

Any assistance a person from a foreign nation requires from our goverment should be considered only when the needs and wefare of our people are addressed firstly.

Depends on what you mean by “assistance”, “needs” and “welfare”.

marti8

djpbarry wrote: »

I just don’t understand this attitude, this sense of “entitlement”. This, in my opinion, is one of the greatest burdens on the state.
I suggest you read the information in the link I provided earlier; discriminating against EU nationals on the basis of nationality is a contravention of EU law.
Suppose some of your family and/or friends happen to be a different nationality to you?
Depends on what you mean by “assistance”, “needs” and “welfare”.

As a citizen, I for example, have certain rights, certain entitlements and one of those entitlements, rights is that should I need it I can get social welfare, we operate a welfare state and I for one support that. It is there for someone if they require it, the social welfare system is in effect the "safety net" and without it we would have such problems that our crisis would pale in comparison long term.

Are you seriously telling me that I can jump on a plane for any other EU member State and simply claim social welfare?.......No, I can't. Nor can someone arrive here in Ireland and simply "sign on". Our government already operates a qualifying period for non-nationals of 2 years (having worked) Lets take your suggestion for a second, what is to stop millions of EU nationals flooding into Ireland to claim social welfare if as you said our government can't discriminate?.........The system does not work like that, here in Ireland or in any other EU State (with the exception of the UK for irish citizens and Ireland for UK citizens - as in either State the citizen does not depend on EU Treaty Rights as the UK and Ireland have a pre-existing arrangement)

Like I said the Irish government already "discriminate" (if that's the word you want to use) between Irish and foreign nationals when it comes to social welfare, so they obviously have the option to extend the 2 year rule to however many years they see fit, 10 would be good....

djpbarry

marti8 wrote: »

It is there for someone if they require it, the social welfare system is in effect the "safety net" and without it we would have such problems that our crisis would pale in comparison long term.

I am not against the concept of welfare, I am against certain peoples’ perception of it.

marti8 wrote: »

Our government already operates a qualifying period for non-nationals of 2 years (having worked)...

Which also applies to Irish nationals; I really don’t know how much clearer I can make this.

You cannot claim jobseeker’s benefit if you have not made PRSI contributions in this country, regardless of whether you are Irish or not. If you are not entitled to jobseeker’s benefit, you may be entitled to jobseeker’s allowance (which is means tested), regardless of whether you are Irish or not.

marti8 wrote: »

Lets take your suggestion for a second...

What suggestion? I didn’t suggest anything.

dodgyme

djpbarry wrote: »

Suppose some of your family and/or friends happen to be a different nationality to you?.

and the question is?

EnigmasWhisper

djpbarry wrote: »

Suppose some of your family and/or friends happen to be a different nationality to you?

Some of my friends are of a different nationality, and the same principle applies to them. Obviously personal exceptions and relations arent of consequence when commenting on the broader situation of welfare / immigration policy.

djpbarry wrote: »

Depends on what you mean by “assistance”, “needs” and “welfare”.

In keeping with the theme of this thread

Irlandese

greendom wrote: »

Nonsense, as long as they abide by the rules and live in Ireland they are as entitled to the benefit payments as any Irish person - just as any Irish person living in another EU country is entitled to the benefits that apply in that country. It's part of what makes the EU such a great institution.

Your post is wrong on so many levels but I'll leave it at that for now.

I am butting in here, but you seem to believe that all european countries have similar welfare schemes as Ireland. This is very far from the truth. Ireland has probably the most generous and now un-sustainable social welfare system across the board. When you take into account all primary and secondary or "passport" benefits, as with GMS entitlements and income support mechanisms, Ireland offers much more to non-workers than many other european states labour markets do to actual employees-
Ireland must act to cut and limit benefits or face certain bankruptcy of it's welfare system, something akin to what happened in Sweden some years ago.

djpbarry

EnigmasWhisper wrote: »

Some of my friends are of a different nationality, and the same principle applies to them.

What principle is that? Irish people (regardless of who they are or what they have contributed to society) should be prioritised ahead of your foreign friends when it comes to state assistance?

EnigmasWhisper

djpbarry wrote: »

What principle is that? Irish people (regardless of who they are or what they have contributed to society) should be prioritised ahead of your foreign friends when it comes to state assistance?

Yes, absolutely. I would'nt have thought I needed to reitirate what I already made clear previously in the thread.

ejmaztec

Irlandese wrote: »

I am butting in here, but you seem to believe that all european countries have similar welfare schemes as Ireland. This is very far from the truth. Ireland has probably the most generous and now un-sustainable social welfare system across the board. When you take into account all primary and secondary or "passport" benefits, as with GMS entitlements and income support mechanisms, Ireland offers much more to non-workers than many other european states labour markets do to actual employees-
Ireland must act to cut and limit benefits or face certain bankruptcy of it's welfare system, something akin to what happened in Sweden some years ago.

No doubt there are going to be some drastic changes for all welfare recipients in Ireland over the next few years.

djpbarry wrote: »

What principle is that? Irish people (regardless of who they are or what they have contributed to society) should be prioritised ahead of your foreign friends when it comes to state assistance?

Unfortunately for some, Ireland has become "The Land of 100,000 Feck-offs".

The whingers don't know how the system works, and until they do, they're best left ignored.

EnigmasWhisper

ejmaztec wrote: »

Unfortunately for some, Ireland has become "The Land of 100,000 Feck-offs".

The whingers don't know how the system works, and until they do, they're best left ignored.

Who might you be referring to, are you suggesting anybody on this particular thread is 'whinging' ? If so, why are you anymore deserving of attention and what may I ask makes you an authority on 'how the system works' ?

veronica

what ever country u were born in should be the rate at the time in your home country u should get! I have worked 30 years in this country 27 as paye and 3 self employed and am not now entitlied to any dole because 3 years self employed so what happened my 27 years stamps as paye worker so stupid and yet someone from another country can come here for 2 years and get dole, rent
allowance, medical cards, child benefit, their children learn english and yet they cut special needs teachers. The Polish government must be laughing at what an easy touch we are as a nation!

EnigmasWhisper

veronica wrote: »

what ever country u were born in should be the rate at the time in your home country u should get! I have worked 30 years in this country 27 as paye and 3 self employed and am not now entitlied to any dole because 3 years self employed so what happened my 27 years stamps as paye worker so stupid and yet someone from another country can come here for 2 years and get dole, rent
allowance, medical cards, child benefit, their children learn english and yet they cut special needs teachers. The Polish government must be laughing at what an easy touch we are as a nation!

Good point, I suggested the same earlier. It would give incentive to find another job, in a specific time frame of perhaps 6 mths.

I assure you from that from what I have been told in person by Polish nationals, Ireland is the butt of many jokes both in Poland and further afield because of our generous welfare system. They consider our goverment ridiculously inept and ridiculous, God knows what they feel about those who defend them or the systems in place here. Then again, If Irish people could go to Poland and receive welfare three times our countries minimum wage, receive rent allowance that in effect amounts to free accommodation, free education, apply for a free council house, child benefits, free education and so on, I suspect we would roll around laughing also. It seems the punchline has come too late for many here

kevinkilbane

i have to say straight off. the dole in ireland, is too easy to get for citizens of poland, e.u., non e.u., AND IRELAND.

by the way, im 24m living in west dublin, i work full time. i am lucky, i love my job.

a quick little story,quite a few of my friends are out of work, and on the dole.
1 friend, got back from australia after a year of travelling, with over 10k debt is on the dole since jan, he got a job in march, lasted 4days, quit cause he "didnt like it", still on the dole. and he just sits at home all day, pays his mam €50 a week, €50 to bank of ireland (that he organised with solicitors of boi) and the rest he drinks. DISGRACE!

2friend, he got let go from his job (postroom of a large company), in october 08, he got offered a job in the same company when he was told he had to go from the postroom, it was housekeeping, (empty bins, and look after recyling), he rejected, "didnt wanna" (and by the way, a polish lad did take the job). hes been on the dole since then. he lives at home with mammy and daddy. And now he has booked a holiday to greece with the lads in july, and is paying for it with the dole, saving a little each week. DISGRACE!

these two can work, one has a degree in accounting also, but they refuse to, they have it too easy, mammy looks after them, they stay in bed all day, just watch telly and dvds, they can got out one night of the weekend, they have it too easy. 26 & 21 years old, disgrace.

so my point is, you can give out about polish people and so on, but its the irish who are worse, much worse.