Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Non-citizens getting the dole? Time to stop it?
Options
Comments
-
Wrong. These days there are not enough jobs even for Irish people. See: http://www.jobsblog.ie/Jobs/bankers-applying-for-jobs-in-mcdonalds/242
So becuase you read about one case of this on an internet blog quoted from the evening echo it must be true across the board. Hvae you tried yourself to go out and look for a low paid job?And no, I said earlier that if east Europeans have paid tax and then become unemployed they should recieve that tax paid back in kind by way of a social welfare payment and when they have recieved that ammount back that's it, no more. They then have to return to their own countries.
And you say I am racist/xenophobic, huh, I guess that's why I am married to a non-Irish national...sure that makes sense alright. But then when people don't wish to engage in adult debate it is always an easy way out to start labelling and insulting others. Immature.
So by your own logic, your wife should be sent home and/or never allowwed to claim benefits above what she paid in tax.
I see your point about claiming up to the tax they have paid, but I really doubt it is even an issue- have you any statistics to prove that it is?. Most unemployed eastern europeans have gone home and are not entitled to claim anything here while being non-resident. You are jumping to the huge and unfounded conclusion that the value of taxes paid into the irish coffers by non-nationals is less than they have or will claim in social benefits. This is where your argument fails. Long-term unemployed Irish people who have never paid any tax and yet habitually get benfits are a much bigger problem and drain on the system.
And finally, whether you like it or not, to give any non-national living in Ireland (EU or not) less rights than an Irish person Smacks of Xenophopia regardless of your marital status.0 -
I agree that if non-nationals have made tax contributions then they should be entitled to some benifits, but limited as is they can get back part of what they have paid as they will have gotten back much of it through public services.
the shocking things for me is that there are so many people claiming social welfare and they are not even in the country, oh and for evidence Photo to be needed to collect welfare that is the biggest problem we face downright fraud, and most of the perpetrators are not European either, or even tax contributers for that matter. the are probably claiming benifits in a few countries and in my mind should be deported(and pay all costs them selves) or even better work for the state to pay back their debt. get this country cleaned up, and yes I mean chain gang senarios. would solve a lot of the financial worries that the country has
oh and before the Do gooders start, I would apply the same for Irish fraudsters too..
anybody want to nominate me for Europe???
to add to this I have lived in a few European countries and it is very difficult to access Social Welfare services.
many people just go to Ireland cause they know that its easy there,
Currently I live in The United Arab Emirates, where non nationals can only stay in the country for 30 days if they are unemployed,
there is no social welfare of any sort for non nationals, locals have a limited social welfare system, they are only allowed to be unemployed for a few months.
however the country does have a lot of problems too, like poor working conditions for the masses, and terrible living conditions for the majority of non westerners.
anyway I think I've gone on enough...0 -
It would certainly complicate the free movement of labour in the EU, were each member state to bill all of the other member states for the benefits handed over to the relevant intra-EU unemployed.
Presumably, statistics for this are buried in an EU bunker in Brussels.0 -
So becuase you read about one case of this on an internet blog quoted from the evening echo it must be true across the board. Hvae you tried yourself to go out and look for a low paid job?
So by your own logic, your wife should be sent home and/or never allowwed to claim benefits above what she paid in tax.
I see your point about claiming up to the tax they have paid, but I really doubt it is even an issue- have you any statistics to prove that it is?. Most unemployed eastern europeans have gone home and are not entitled to claim anything here while being non-resident. You are jumping to the huge and unfounded conclusion that the value of taxes paid into the irish coffers by non-nationals is less than they have or will claim in social benefits. This is where your argument fails. Long-term unemployed Irish people who have never paid any tax and yet habitually get benfits are a much bigger problem and drain on the system.
And finally, whether you like it or not, to give any non-national living in Ireland (EU or not) less rights than an Irish person Smacks of Xenophopia regardless of your marital status.
It is not xenophobic to suggest regualtions and controls, it is realistic, especially these days. And no, again you misunderstand what I am saying. I am Irish, my wife is not but is, obviously, the dependant of an Irish citizen (me) I am not talking about Irish citizens or their dependants who I believe do have an entitle ment to a social welfare payment, I am talking about non-nationals who have worked for more than 2 years and who are now unemployed.....and their entitlement to indefinete social welfare. I think this is wrong, this is my opinion.
The first priority of the Irish State should be towards the welfare of Irish people and their dependants. Just as the first priority of the Polish State should be towards its citizens, and the Czech State and so on and so on.... Thats is not xenophobic, that is being 100% realistic.
Take Bulgarians and Romanians, they are EU citizens yet they cannot come here to Ireland or any other EU member State to work (not without permits) Is this xenophobic, no, this is realistic.....0 -
Re-opened for OP to respond and continue.0
-
Advertisement
-
OK.
OP, your answer will depend on this thread living or dying.
Why should someone who has paid two years of social taxes not receive social benefits?
(I'm ignoring you've moved from the... "they shouldn't get dole" to "send them all home"....... for now...).
Ok, to reply: I have never said that east Europeans living in Ireland should not get social welfare payments. What I have said is that they should not be entitled to the very same social welfare benefits to which Irish nationals and their dependants are entitled to.
Yes, they have paid their taxes, this I fully accept that is why, in my opinion, they should be entitled to recieve back by way of social welfare the ammount of tax which they have contributed to the Irish State.
I don't see why east European nationals should be a burden to the State. We have an ever decreasing ammount of money.
The governemnt have cut in half the dole paid to the under 20's......I wonder, and this is simply a question, if folks had to choose between leaving dole payments for the under 20's untouched or introducing a scheme whereby east Europeans recieve back in social welfare only the taxes they have put in, which people would choose? Personally I'd go for the latter.
That is not xenophobic.0 -
Oh, I like these instigators of feud how they all start these anti-eastern european stories wit the words "I'm not xenophobic or racist but....."
Are you really not?0 -
Oh, I like these instigators of feud how they all start these anti-eastern european stories wit the words "I'm not xenophobic or racist but....."
Are you really not?
Ok, if I was xenophobic or racist I would not have a non-Irish spouse then, would I? Check the definition in the dictionary if you want to.
It is perfecty reasonable to question current social welfare policy without falling into either of the categories you suggested.0 -
I am Irish, my wife is not but is, obviously, the dependant of an Irish citizen (me) I am not talking about Irish citizens or their dependants who I believe do have an entitle ment to a social welfare payment, I am talking about non-nationals who have worked for more than 2 years and who are now unemployed.....and their entitlement to indefinete social welfare. I think this is wrong, this is my opinion.
So your non-national wife who has not worked or paid taxes is entitled to indefinate benefits becuase she is married to you...but any other non-national who has worked and paid taxes is not?
Wow. In other words you believe in what suits you best.
I Have just completely lost any respect I may have had for you or your argument.0 -
These foreign nationals actually get €30 a week more in unemployment benefit than their Irish counterparts, it is called "socialising allowance"0
-
Advertisement
-
Ok, to reply: I have never said that east Europeans living in Ireland should not get social welfare payments. What I have said is that they should not be entitled to the very same social welfare benefits to which Irish nationals and their dependants are entitled to.
Yes, they have paid their taxes, this I fully accept that is why, in my opinion, they should be entitled to recieve back by way of social welfare the ammount of tax which they have contributed to the Irish State.
I don't see why east European nationals should be a burden to the State. We have an ever decreasing ammount of money.
The governemnt have cut in half the dole paid to the under 20's......I wonder, and this is simply a question, if folks had to choose between leaving dole payments for the under 20's untouched or introducing a scheme whereby east Europeans recieve back in social welfare only the taxes they have put in, which people would choose? Personally I'd go for the latter.
That is not xenophobic.
What nationality is your wife? Just beacuse she is not Irish does not mean you are not Xenophopic- You definately seem to have a prejudice against Eastern Europeans.
What is your problem with them? What about Spanish, french German or Britsh? Are they ok? Should they be allowed to claim the dole? If so what makes them diffferent?0 -
So your non-national wife who has not worked or paid taxes is entitled to indefinate benefits becuase she is married to you...but any other non-national who has worked and paid taxes is not?
Wow. In other words you believe in what suits you best.
I Have just completely lost any respect I may have had for you or your argument.
Without going into too many details my spouse has paid taxes but that is irrelevant to the point which I am making one which you obviously can't understand. I have not said that non-national should not get social welfare, I have said that they should only get social welfare to the ammount of which they have contributed in tax. Irish nationals and their dependants (Irsh or not) doesn't come into it.
I believe in reality, and the reality is the country is running out of money, fast. Maybe you live on a differnet planet if you think otherwise. My point is why should non-nationals be burden on the State, simple as that. I am not talking about refugees or asylum seekers, I am talking about very specifically eastern European nationals who have worked for over 2 years in this state.0 -
-
What nationality is your wife? Just beacuse she is not Irish does not mean you are not Xenophopic- You definately seem to have a prejudice against Eastern Europeans.
What is your problem with them? What about Spanish, french German or Britsh? Are they ok? Should they be allowed to claim the dole? If so what makes them diffferent?
Lol, I have no intention of devulging personal details to you.
You ask why eastern Europeans? For a very simple reason. The simple fact that while it may suit a French/German/Dutch/Italian/Austrian/Swedish etc etc person to return home if made unemplyed an eastern European has no such incentive as the social welfare systems in their own states are very weak in comparison to "western" countries.
For the east European who has lost his or her job what incentive is there to return to their own country when the social welfare system in their home country is so underdeveloped?! It makes more sense for them, as they would see it, to remain here in Ireland on the dole, possibly indefinetly.....thereby allowing for a similar if not better standard of living even if they were in their home country working nevermind actually on the dole in their own countries.....
I recall when the "new" eastern states joined the EU, I was delighted, I thought it was great...but the more I think on it the more negative effects I see from that. We didn't need eastern Europe, eastern Europe needed us. And that is a plain, cold, hard fact. Yes, we needed workers from outside Ireland, even from outside the EU as it was pre-enlargement but these workers could have come here on tempoary green cards but our government didn't opt for that.0 -
I have no problem with foreign nationals claiming social benefits provided they meet two requirements.
1- They have previously worked in the state.
2- They currently reside in the state.
In order to prevent any possible fraud all people claiming the dole must provide
1- Photographic ID
2- Proof of address (bill etc.)
Basically I'm suggesting that if a Polish national becomes unemployed and returns to Poland. he becomes Poland's problem, not Ireland's.0 -
I have no problem with foreign nationals claiming social benefits provided they meet two requirements.
1- They have previously worked in the state.
2- They currently reside in the state.
In order to prevent any possible fraud all people claiming the dole must provide
1- Photographic ID
2- Proof of address (bill etc.)
Basically I'm suggesting that if a Polish national becomes unemployed and returns to Poland. he becomes Poland's problem, not Ireland's.
I agree.0 -
-
I have no problem with foreign nationals claiming social benefits provided they meet two requirements.
1- They have previously worked in the state.
2- They currently reside in the state.
In order to prevent any possible fraud all people claiming the dole must provide
1- Photographic ID
2- Proof of address (bill etc.)
Basically I'm suggesting that if a Polish national becomes unemployed and returns to Poland. he becomes Poland's problem, not Ireland's.
That might have been just about ok previously and personally I really don't think it was but not today, the State could go bankrupt, that IS a possibility. Won't probably happen but could, nonetheless we are looking at some very serious times ahead for Irelands finances. We have just seen the dole reduced by HALF for the under 20's....this would not have been needed if we had a system whereby eastern Europeans did not recieve dole payments over and above that amount which they had initially paid in taxes.0 -
That might have been just about ok previously and personally I really don't think it was but not today, the State could go bankrupt, that IS a possibility. Won't probably happen but could, nonetheless we are looking at some very serious times ahead for Irelands finances. We have just seen the dole reduced by HALF for the under 20's....this would not have been needed if we had a system whereby eastern Europeans did not recieve dole payments over and above that amount which they had initially paid in taxes.
I'd imagine a good majority of those under 20's have contributed much less in taxes than the Eastern Europeans.
Also I notice your continued reference to Eastern Europeans. Does that mean that a German or French national would be entitled to unlimited dole in your view but a Polish or Latvian national would not?
I can see some validity on limiting the dole that citizens from countries outside the EU can claim, perhaps by linking it to their tax contributions but I'd imagine the powers that be in Brussels and Strassburg would take a dim view of what is essentially, discrimination against EU citizens.0 -
I'd imagine a good majority of those under 20's have contributed much less in taxes than the Eastern Europeans.
Also I notice your continued reference to Eastern Europeans. Does that mean that a German or French national would be entitled to unlimited dole in your view but a Polish or Latvian national would not?
I can see some validity on limiting the dole that citizens from countries outside the EU can claim, perhaps by linking it to their tax contributions but I'd imagine the powers that be in Brussels and Strassburg would take a dim view of what is essentially, discrimination against EU citizens.
You ask why eastern Europeans? For a very simple reason. The simple fact that while it may suit a French/German/Dutch/Italian/Austrian/Swedish etc etc person to return home if made unemplyed an eastern European has no such incentive as the social welfare systems in their own states are very weak in comparison to "western" countries.
For the east European who has lost his or her job what incentive is there to return to their own country when the social welfare system in their home country is so underdeveloped?! It makes more sense for them, as they would see it, to remain here in Ireland on the dole, possibly indefinetly.....thereby allowing for a similar if not better standard of living even if they were in their home country working nevermind actually on the dole in their own countries.....
I recall when the "new" eastern states joined the EU, I was delighted, I thought it was great...but the more I think on it the more negative effects I see from that. We didn't need eastern Europe, eastern Europe needed us. And that is a plain, cold, hard fact. Yes, we needed workers from outside Ireland, even from outside the EU as it was pre-enlargement but these workers could have come here on tempoary green cards but our government didn't opt for that.0 -
Advertisement
-
You ask why eastern Europeans? For a very simple reason. The simple fact that while it may suit a French/German/Dutch/Italian/Austrian/Swedish etc etc person to return home if made unemplyed an eastern European has no such incentive as the social welfare systems in their own states are very weak in comparison to "western" countries.
For the east European who has lost his or her job what incentive is there to return to their own country when the social welfare system in their home country is so underdeveloped?! It makes more sense for them, as they would see it, to remain here in Ireland on the dole, possibly indefinetly.....thereby allowing for a similar if not better standard of living even if they were in their home country working nevermind actually on the dole in their own countries.....
I recall when the "new" eastern states joined the EU, I was delighted, I thought it was great...but the more I think on it the more negative effects I see from that. We didn't need eastern Europe, eastern Europe needed us. And that is a plain, cold, hard fact. Yes, we needed workers from outside Ireland, even from outside the EU as it was pre-enlargement but these workers could have come here on tempoary green cards but our government didn't opt for that.
Thats fair enough. Unfortunatley we're now stuck in a situation we cannot escape WRT Eastern European workers and this has bitten us on the backside on a few occasions (for example, Dell). However we cannot rstrict the rights of EU citizens without any significant fallout and this will keep the status quo as it is.0 -
I take that as meaning that she is not Eastern European anyway...If you are not willing to say then stop using the line 'my wife is not irish therefore I could not possibly be either xenophobic or racist'. This is utter BSLol, I have no intention of devulging personal details to you.For the east European who has lost his or her job what incentive is there to return to their own country when the social welfare system in their home country is so underdeveloped?! It makes more sense for them, as they would see it, to remain here in Ireland on the dole, possibly indefinetly.....thereby allowing for a similar if not better standard of living even if they were in their home country working nevermind actually on the dole in their own countries.....
I recall when the "new" eastern states joined the EU, I was delighted, I thought it was great...but the more I think on it the more negative effects I see from that. We didn't need eastern Europe, eastern Europe needed us. And that is a plain, cold, hard fact. Yes, we needed workers from outside Ireland, even from outside the EU as it was pre-enlargement but these workers could have come here on tempoary green cards but our government didn't opt for that.
When Ireland Joined the EU it was the poor member and all the other states pumped in Billions to Ireland to get us were we are today. During the bad times millions of Irish went abroad to work just like the eastern Europeans have come here. They worked and paid their taxes and doubtless in times of recession they claimed the dole. That is obviously ok with you, but the second Ireland hands anythink out to anyone not Irish (except your wife) you are up in arms. Everything you say smacks of pure selfishness and greed.
You obviously have no idea of the workings of any "western" European welfare systems do you? Do you think that an Italian or French citizen can work in ireland for several years and then go home and automatically get welfare payments? No they can't.You ask why eastern Europeans? For a very simple reason. The simple fact that while it may suit a French/German/Dutch/Italian/Austrian/Swedish etc etc person to return home if made unemplyed an eastern European has no such incentive as the social welfare systems in their own states are very weak in comparison to "western" countries.
Also, FYI British citizens are the bigest group of non-nationals in Ireland, the dole in the UK is £45 per week compared to our €204, so obvioulsy if a British citizen is unemployed here it is worth his while staying, yetI don't hear you saying that they should be sent home, no no the probelm is them damned backward Eastern Europeans :rolleyes:
Really you have no argument. You are just spouting things of the top of your head and have no evidence there is a problem, you have no proof that Eastern Europeans are costing the state more than anyone else is. Until I see evidence that there is a problem I will just assume that you are just spouting a lot of xenophobic nonsense.0 -
Thats fair enough. Unfortunatley we're now stuck in a situation we cannot escape WRT Eastern European workers and this has bitten us on the backside on a few occasions (for example, Dell). However we cannot rstrict the rights of EU citizens without any significant fallout and this will keep the status quo as it is.
Maybe we should risk the fallout, risk the wrath of Brussels. The French have said they'll prop up their industries if need be even if it violates EU competition law. We can certainly do the same if we feel the need to. But our goverment doesn't have the stomach for that I fear. So, we'll simply go on losing millions upon millions upon millions of euro each year.....0 -
I take that as meaning that she is not Eastern European anyway...If you are not willing to say then stop using the line 'my wife is not irish therefore I could not possibly be either xenophobic or racist'. This is utter BS
When Ireland Joined the EU it was the poor member and all the other states pumped in Billions to Ireland to get us were we are today. During the bad times millions of Irish went abroad to work just like the eastern Europeans have come here. They worked and paid their taxes and doubtless in times of recession they claimed the dole. That is obviously ok with you, but the second Ireland hands anythink out to anyone not Irish (except your wife) you are up in arms. Everything you say smacks of pure selfishness and greed.
You obviously have no idea of the workings of any "western" European welfare systems do you? Do you think that an Italian or French citizen can work in ireland for several years and then go home and automatically get welfare payments? No they can't.
Also, FYI British citizens are the bigest group of non-nationals in Ireland, the dole in the UK is £45 per week compared to our €204, so obvioulsy if a British citizen is unemployed here it is worth his while staying, yetI don't hear you saying that they should be sent home, no no the probelm is them damned backward Eastern Europeans :rolleyes:
Really you have no argument. You are just spouting things of the top of your head and have no evidence there is a problem, you have no proof that Eastern Europeans are costing the state more than anyone else is. Until I see evidence that there is a problem I will just assume that you are just spouting a lot of xenophobic nonsense.
You obviously miss the point, eastern Europeans are costing the State every single day....they may have worked over 2 years and they have paid their taxes but in return they recieve dole payments indefinetly, medical cards and all the usual suspects. I believe an Irish citizen and his or her dependants has a legitimate right to these things.
It is fine to give social welfare to eastern Europeans but only upto the ammount of which they have paid in tax.
The situation in relation to the UK is more complex given our shared history and the ammount of Irish people in the UK. Yes, as I said earlier this is selfish but we live in times where if you don't protect your own citizens you are in trouble. Just look, they have cut dole payments for the under 20's by HALF. They could introduce a system similar to what I am suggesting, not that they will of course....but this still doesn't change my opinion. We'll see how ready they are to continue handing out dole to east Europeans when the money really, REALLY starts to run out....we will then see what the publics reaction will be and in turn the governments reaction.
If it's a choice between putting Irish people first or having a so-called "level playing field" for all, then I choose the former and I make no apologies for that. And I would expect every other country to do the same. This is the new reality we are facing.0 -
Maybe we should risk the fallout, risk the wreath of Brussels. The French have said they'll prop up their industries if need be even if it violates EU competition law. We can certainly do the same if we feel the need to. But our goverment doesn't have the stomach for that I fear. So, we'll simply go on losing millions upon millions upon millions of euro each year.....
Put simply, France has the power and influence to do this, they are one of the top 3 EU economic powers.
Ireland is a ****ty little island on the west coast of Europe who at this stage, need the EU more than the EU needs it.0 -
You obviously miss the point, eastern Europeans are costing the State every single day....they may have worked over 2 years and they have paid their taxes but in return they recieve dole payments indefinetly, medical cards and all the usual suspects. I believe an Irish citizen and his or her dependants has a legitimate right to these things.
So you say but as of yet you have not produced a shred of evidence to back this up. Do you think that if you say it enough times then it must be true?0 -
So you say but as of yet you have not produced a shred of evidence to back this up. Do you think that if you say it enough times then it must be true?
Ok, take an example: a citizen of an east European country living in Ireand has worked for more than 2 years, he/she becomes unemployed, they get social wefare and after several months or years the ammount of taxes which they initially paid is now less than the ammount of social welfare they are recieving........and you are still saying you don't see my point?
Just say, for arguments sake, that they have paid €10,000 in taxes, just say, being unemployed for 1 year will result in the individual being paid more than the initial ammount they paid in taxes.....so obviously they ARE costing the State. The math is quite simple, you don't have to be a genius to figure it out. And that is not including rent allowance, medical card, the now defunct Xmas bonus, fuel allowance.
I have NO problem with that individual getting back the tax he or she paid by way of social welfare payments, I do have a problem with that individual, a non-Irish citizen, being a burden to the Irish State......0 -
Maybe we should risk the fallout, risk the wrath of Brussels. The French have said they'll prop up their industries if need be even if it violates EU competition law. We can certainly do the same if we feel the need to. But our goverment doesn't have the stomach for that I fear. So, we'll simply go on losing millions upon millions upon millions of euro each year.....
The French have backed down from that - perhaps they don't have the stomach for it either.
cordially,
Scofflaw0 -
Ok, take an example: a citizen of an east European country living in Ireand has worked for more than 2 years, he/she becomes unemployed, they get social wefare and after several months or years the ammount of taxes which they initially paid is now less than the ammount of social welfare they are recieving........and you are still saying you don't see my point?
Just say, for arguments sake, that they have paid €10,000 in taxes, just say, being unemployed for 1 year will result in the individual being paid more than the initial ammount they paid in taxes.....so obviously they ARE costing the State. The math is quite simple, you don't have to be a genius to figure it out. And that is not including rent allowance, medical card, the now defunct Xmas bonus, fuel allowance.
I have NO problem with that individual getting back the tax he or she paid by way of social welfare payments, I do have a problem with that individual, a non-Irish citizen, being a burden to the Irish State......
This is not evidence of anything. This is you Hypothesizing. Show me evidence of this actually happening and Eastern European's actually costing the state.
Also do you not think it is a bit of a leap to lump all Eastern Europeans into one bracket. Do you know anything about differing eastern European countries and their social welfare and economic situations? Is a Romanian the same as a Czech, Is a Latvian the same as a Slovenian? Do you have any clue what you are talking about? Please define eastern European, which countries in particular do you mean?
Also replace Eastern European with Britsh, Italian, French, German Austrian etc in your Hypothesis above and tell me why there is no risk of these nationalities claiming social welfare longterm in Ireland while all 'Eastern Europeans' obviously would want to. Tell me why any 'Eastern European' would have less right to claim welfare than any of the above.
Your argument is so riddled with holes it doesn't even exist0 -
Advertisement
-
This is not evidence of anything. This is you Hypothesizing. Show me evidence of this actually happening and Eastern European's actually costing the state.
Also do you not think it is a bit of a leap to lump all Eastern Europeans into one bracket. Do you know anything about differing eastern European countries and their social welfare and economic situations? Is a Romanian the same as a Czech, Is a Latvian the same as a Slovenian? Do you have any clue what you are talking about? Please define eastern European, which countries in particular do you mean?
Also replace Eastern European with Britsh, Italian, French, German Austrian etc in your Hypothesis above and tell me why there is no risk of these nationalities claiming social welfare longterm in Ireland while all 'Eastern Europeans' obviously would want to. Tell me why any 'Eastern European' would have less right to claim welfare than any of the above.
Your argument is so riddled with holes it doesn't even exist
I have already explained why eastern Europeans would be less likely to want to return home to a country with a very poor social welfare structure when here in Ireland they could live as they would live, better probably, than even if they were working in their home country.
I also explained why "western" Europeans would be more likely to return home to their countries.
And what I have outlined I am sure does happen and continues to happen, I could equally say to you "you go and find me the evidence that this is not happening" It doesn't as I have said take a genius to do the math. If you choose to ignore that then that's your problem.0
This discussion has been closed.
Advertisement