Non-citizens getting the dole? Time to stop it?

ejmaztec

EnigmasWhisper wrote: »

Who might you be referring to, are you suggesting anybody on this particular thread is 'whinging' ? If so, why are you anymore deserving of attention and what may I ask makes you an authority on 'how the system works' ?

It's part of my job to know about such things.

Anyone whinging? :pac::pac::pac::pac:

Bye!

EnigmasWhisper

kevinkilbane wrote: »

i have to say straight off. the dole in ireland, is too easy to get for citizens of poland, e.u., non e.u., AND IRELAND.

by the way, im 24m living in west dublin, i work full time. i am lucky, i love my job.

a quick little story,quite a few of my friends are out of work, and on the dole.
1 friend, got back from australia after a year of travelling, with over 10k debt is on the dole since jan, he got a job in march, lasted 4days, quit cause he "didnt like it", still on the dole. and he just sits at home all day, pays his mam €50 a week, €50 to bank of ireland (that he organised with solicitors of boi) and the rest he drinks. DISGRACE!

2friend, he got let go from his job (postroom of a large company), in october 08, he got offered a job in the same company when he was told he had to go from the postroom, it was housekeeping, (empty bins, and look after recyling), he rejected, "didnt wanna" (and by the way, a polish lad did take the job). hes been on the dole since then. he lives at home with mammy and daddy. And now he has booked a holiday to greece with the lads in july, and is paying for it with the dole, saving a little each week. DISGRACE!

these two can work, one has a degree in accounting also, but they refuse to, they have it too easy, mammy looks after them, they stay in bed all day, just watch telly and dvds, they can got out one night of the weekend, they have it too easy. 26 & 21 years old, disgrace.

so my point is, you can give out about polish people and so on, but its the irish who are worse, much worse.

While your friends are lazy, they are no more lazy than a minority of employable people that remain on welfare found in every country anywhere in the world. It is by no means exclusive to Ireland to have adults who prefer not to work and receive welfare benefits. Im not sure what you earn, but how you consider a grown adult surviving on e200 a week, or like your friend e100 a week being some sort of luxury or easy existance is beyond me. As an adult, I certainly couldnt survive on e200 / e100 a week, and I cant think of anyone I know who could. Sure if we all consider its preferable to 'exist' rather than 'live' and sit watching tv all day and drinking cheap aldi beer than earning decent money, then it would be eutopia. Although I suspect the majority of people have higher lifestyle expectations and consider quality of life better than having to live on E200 per week.

Polish people work hard, but no more than the majority of Irish people. This thread is addressing Non-national welfare recepients. Your two lazy friends sitting at home watching tv are hardly indicative of the majority of Irish people unfortunate enough to find themselves on the dole.

When you consider that until recently unemployment levels were just 3% in Ireland, I think it demonstrates the vast majority of Irish people seek a life fuller than Coronation Street and Aldi beer, thus why they work and pay taxes to sustain it. I consider it plausable to halve that figure again until we have a possible 1.5 %, and this is possibly more of an accurate reflection of 'lazy' Irish people. Now a realistic figure of 1.5 % of lazy people receiving welfare payments hardly make us 'worse, much worse' than any other nations inhabitants.


I do however think the whole welfare system here needs to be changed, as it can not be sustained anymore.

tippspur

kevinkilbane wrote: »

i have to say straight off. the dole in ireland, is too easy to get for citizens of poland, e.u., non e.u., AND IRELAND.

by the way, im 24m living in west dublin, i work full time. i am lucky, i love my job.

a quick little story,quite a few of my friends are out of work, and on the dole.
1 friend, got back from australia after a year of travelling, with over 10k debt is on the dole since jan, he got a job in march, lasted 4days, quit cause he "didnt like it", still on the dole. and he just sits at home all day, pays his mam €50 a week, €50 to bank of ireland (that he organised with solicitors of boi) and the rest he drinks. DISGRACE!

2friend, he got let go from his job (postroom of a large company), in october 08, he got offered a job in the same company when he was told he had to go from the postroom, it was housekeeping, (empty bins, and look after recyling), he rejected, "didnt wanna" (and by the way, a polish lad did take the job). hes been on the dole since then. he lives at home with mammy and daddy. And now he has booked a holiday to greece with the lads in july, and is paying for it with the dole, saving a little each week. DISGRACE!

these two can work, one has a degree in accounting also, but they refuse to, they have it too easy, mammy looks after them, they stay in bed all day, just watch telly and dvds, they can got out one night of the weekend, they have it too easy. 26 & 21 years old, disgrace.

so my point is, you can give out about polish people and so on, but its the irish who are worse, much worse.

I know some Irish people like this also.it's very true,the Irish are worse...:mad:

EnigmasWhisper

tippspur wrote: »

I know some Irish people like this also.it's very true,the Irish are worse...:mad:

Absolute Bullshi*

There are lazy people everywhere in the world. Where were all the lazy Irish people when our unemployment levels were 3 % ? Yes, um Irish people are worse :rolleyes:

EnigmasWhisper

ejmaztec wrote: »

It's part of my job to know about such things.

Anyone whinging? :pac::pac::pac::pac:

Bye!

Oh right, that explains it then. You might consider getting another career then

kevinkilbane

EnigmasWhisper wrote: »

While your friends are lazy, they are no more lazy than a minority of employable people that remain on welfare found in every country anywhere in the world. It is by no means exclusive to Ireland to have adults who prefer not to work and receive welfare benefits. Im not sure what you earn, but how you consider a grown adult surviving on e200 a week, or like your friend e100 a week being some sort of luxury or easy existance is beyond me. As an adult, I certainly couldnt survive on e200 / e100 a week, and I cant think of anyone I know who could. Sure if we all consider its preferable to 'exist' rather than 'live' and sit watching tv all day and drinking cheap aldi beer than earning decent money, then it would be eutopia. Although I suspect the majority of people have higher lifestyle expectations and consider quality of life better than having to live on E200 per week.

Polish people work hard, but no more than the majority of Irish people. This thread is addressing Non-national welfare recepients. Your two lazy friends sitting at home watching tv are hardly indicative of the majority of Irish people unfortunate enough to find themselves on the dole.

When you consider that until recently unemployment levels were just 3% in Ireland, I think it demonstrates the vast majority of Irish people seek a life fuller than Coronation Street and Aldi beer, thus why they work and pay taxes to sustain it. I consider it plausable to halve that figure again until we have a possible 1.5 %, and this is possibly more of an accurate reflection of 'lazy' Irish people. Now a realistic figure of 1.5 % of lazy people receiving welfare payments hardly make us 'worse, much worse' than any other nations inhabitants.


I do however think the whole welfare system here needs to be changed, as it can not be sustained anymore.

you make a good point, but i was just pointing out that there ARE jobs out there, but my friends in this instance REFUSED them, its theyre choice to remain on €200 a week. im not saying they have a life of luxury, but they can survive on 200/100 a week, they have no bills,no kids,nothing but theyre social life to look after.

these two are not unfortunate to be on the dole, they choose to.

and your right what you say, but i never meant the majority or irish people are lazy, and wanna stay in bed all day. i just meant that the doel is too easy to get, thats all.


do my two friends deserve the dole????????? i dont think they do!

by the way my gross is well under 30k

djpbarry

EnigmasWhisper wrote: »

djpbarry wrote: »

Irish people (regardless of who they are or what they have contributed to society) should be prioritised ahead of your foreign friends when it comes to state assistance?

Yes, absolutely.

In which case there is little point in me continuing, because I simply cannot understand this attitude.

flag123

There is always going to be a small percentage of people not willing to work as it wouldn't be worth there while!..happens in every country(with a welfare system)..
What gets to me is when I'm on my lunch break heading down through the town and i can count more foreigners (full families) than Irish people..Wednesday afternoon.. shouldn't they be working??..nope why would they, they have what they want, government supplies it and what do we get in return???...nothing, well except for a few robberies and the causing of violence and hassle..!..

But the thing i don't get, if i had of said any of this 2 years ago everyone would have called me Racist of whatever,

When there's not enough going around for everybody we turn our heads and look for someone to blame..What about the Nigerians or Romanians that have been scamming the system these 7 or 8 years??...Nobody cared until there wasn't enough going around..

I agree that the government ought to take care of its own citizens before foreigners..
I know there are lots of Eastern Europeans out there working hard like they always do but there are other immigrants who scrounge off us!..

I hope action is taking soon to sort this problem out

marti8

djpbarry wrote: »

In which case there is little point in me continuing, because I simply cannot understand this attitude.

The "attitude" you allude to is a very easily understood one, that is in IRELAND IRISH people should come first. The FIRST responsibility of the IRISH State is to the IRISH people.

kevinkilbane

the thing i dont get is how immigrants are entitled to dole, and so much welfare for kids/rent and so on. i just dont understand.

you are right flag123 what you say.

but i have to say it is very racist what you said in the first paragraph.violence robberies, and hassle. ah come on, i dont think you were right saying that...... im sure an irish person never has done any of the sort abroad.

EnigmasWhisper

djpbarry wrote: »

In which case there is little point in me continuing, because I simply cannot understand this attitude.

Fair enough, we will have to agree to disagree whilst respecting eachothers difference of oppinion

flag123 wrote: »

There is always going to be a small percentage of people not willing to work as it wouldn't be worth there while!..happens in every country(with a welfare system)..
What gets to me is when I'm on my lunch break heading down through the town and i can count more foreigners (full families) than Irish people..Wednesday afternoon.. shouldn't they be working??..nope why would they, they have what they want, government supplies it and what do we get in return???...nothing, well except for a few robberies and the causing of violence and hassle..!..

But the thing i don't get, if i had of said any of this 2 years ago everyone would have called me Racist of whatever,

When there's not enough going around for everybody we turn our heads and look for someone to blame..What about the Nigerians or Romanians that have been scamming the system these 7 or 8 years??...Nobody cared until there wasn't enough going around..

I agree that the government ought to take care of its own citizens before foreigners..
I know there are lots of Eastern Europeans out there working hard like they always do but there are other immigrants who scrounge off us!..

I hope action is taking soon to sort this problem out

I agree with almost everything you say except for the robberies and violence bit. In fairness our own are more than capable of being a menace to society, both those on the dole and the criminals in goverment

kevinkilbane wrote: »

you make a good point, but i was just pointing out that there ARE jobs out there, but my friends in this instance REFUSED them, its theyre choice to remain on €200 a week. im not saying they have a life of luxury, but they can survive on 200/100 a week, they have no bills,no kids,nothing but theyre social life to look after.

these two are not unfortunate to be on the dole, they choose to.

and your right what you say, but i never meant the majority or irish people are lazy, and wanna stay in bed all day. i just meant that the doel is too easy to get, thats all.


do my two friends deserve the dole????????? i dont think they do!

by the way my gross is well under 30k

To be honest your friends deserve to be kicked out of the house, and perhaps have an Aldi can bounced off their forehead. I agree that there are jobs out there, but its getting tougher to find them, and a hell of a lot of people competing against eachother for them.

That said, I honestly do think there is an attitude problem when it comes to Irish people working in particular jobs, and Im not sure if even these difficult times can change it....some seem to think that certain jobs are beneath them etc !!! That annoys me :mad:

marti8

djpbarry wrote: »

I am not against the concept of welfare, I am against certain peoples’ perception of it.
Which also applies to Irish nationals; I really don’t know how much clearer I can make this.

You cannot claim jobseeker’s benefit if you have not made PRSI contributions in this country, regardless of whether you are Irish or not. If you are not entitled to jobseeker’s benefit, you may be entitled to jobseeker’s allowance (which is means tested), regardless of whether you are Irish or not.
What suggestion? I didn’t suggest anything.

What perception? That as an Irish citizen I have the right to believe I will be supported by my government should I need it? Whoa....yeah, you are right, very far out thinking there alright........:rolleyes: With citizenship come inherrent privileges.

A citizen has a responsibility to the State but the State also has a responsibility to the citizen. The State has the RIGHT, the ENTITLEMENT to expect certain things of her citizens and the citizen has the RIGHT, the ENTITLEMENT to expect certain things of the State.

Yes, I know you have to have made X number of contributions to be entitled to benefit. However, you do not have to have made a certain number of contributions to be entitled to allowance. And as far as I know a non-national cannot recieve social welfare in the form of jobseekers allowance, now if I am wrong on that someone can correct me. Because if that was the case we would have literally millions of non-nationals in this country applying for and getting jobseekers allowance without ever having had to work a single day! Off the "boat" from Latvia or wherever and straight on the dole......and that is not permitted. As far as I am aware a foreign national has to have worked at least 2 years before they can get social welfare.

Perhaps "suggestion" was the wrong word....however I was taking your way of thinking to its logical conclusion.

flag123

kevinkilbane wrote: »

the thing i dont get is how immigrants are entitled to dole, and so much welfare for kids/rent and so on. i just dont understand.

you are right flag123 what you say.

but i have to say it is very racist what you said in the first paragraph.violence robberies, and hassle. ah come on, i dont think you were right saying that...... im sure an irish person never has done any of the sort abroad.

Its not racist its true...fair enough Irish people probably have acted the di*k abroad or whatever but have you encountered any illegal activities since a foreign family moved into the area?? ...take the roits up in belfast a few weeks back at the Northern Ireland game..

P. Breathnach

djpbarry wrote: »

In which case there is little point in me continuing, because I simply cannot understand this attitude.

There is little point in your continuing, but I think there is a different reason than the one you give: your work is done here. You have brought the core issue fully into focus, just in case there were people around who were not getting the point.

ejmaztec

EnigmasWhisper wrote: »

Oh right, that explains it then. You might consider getting another career then

I would suggest that you read the forum rules re personal insults.

EnigmasWhisper

P. Breathnach wrote: »

There is little point in your continuing, but I think there is a different reason than the one you give: your work is done here. You have brought the core issue fully into focus, just in case there were people around who were not getting the point.

No offence, but the 'core' issue was always fully in focus. You dont need to be too insightful to realise the opposing perspective of anything I or anyone on the same wavelength here have put across. I suspect an 8 yr old child would anticipate the other side of any oppinion thought through here, from either side of the equation. 'Djp' was merely offering up an oppinion and sharing his perspective on welfare and immigrants etc, nothing more, nothing less . . . Im not sure what Djps 'work' here was, but hopefuly he wont lose it and end up on the dole

K-9

flag123 wrote: »

Its not racist its true...fair enough Irish people probably have acted the di*k abroad or whatever but have you encountered any illegal activities since a foreign family moved into the area?? ...take the roits up in belfast a few weeks back at the Northern Ireland game..

The attacks the foreign families received because of some mindless thugs, most of whom went back to Poland, was ridiculous.

EnigmasWhisper

ejmaztec wrote: »

I would suggest that you read the forum rules re personal insults.

Oh right, that explains it then. You might consider getting another career then

I suggest you report me then, because I doubt very much any moderator or grown adult would consider the above a personal 'insult'

kevinkilbane

To be honest your friends deserve to be kicked out of the house, and perhaps have an Aldi can bounced off their forehead. I agree that there are jobs out there, but its getting tougher to find them, and a hell of a lot of people competing against eachother for them.

That said, I honestly do think there is an attitude problem when it comes to Irish people working in particular jobs, and Im not sure if even these difficult times can change it....some seem to think that certain jobs are beneath them etc !!! That annoys me :mad:[/quote]



yeah your dead right there. many many irish people think some jobs are beneath them, why i dont know. jobs like mcdonalds, burger kings are laughed at. im not saying there are thousands of jobs available in these places or elsewhere. but they are two jobs that are jokes within our society, why i dont know!!!!! its very very annoying alright.

gnxx

They are probably entitled to it on the basis that they paid PAYE and PRSI over the last few years???

kevinkilbane wrote: »

the thing i dont get is how immigrants are entitled to dole, and so much welfare for kids/rent and so on. i just dont understand.

Purely guessing, but I would say that the Irish state should be showing a significant surplus when comparing taxes paid for non-nationals vs. social security payments to non-nationals. The vast majority of non-nationals are returning back home at this point before claiming the social benefits that they are entitled to.

As for this "look after our own" principle, I would suggest that by paying VAT, PAYE, PRSI etc over several years, then non-nationals should be considered "our own" ..... and we should look after them.

kevinkilbane

flag123 wrote: »

Its not racist its true...fair enough Irish people probably have acted the di*k abroad or whatever but have you encountered any illegal activities since a foreign family moved into the area?? ...take the roits up in belfast a few weeks back at the Northern Ireland game..

sorry flag123, dont want to sound rude, but i really hate racism, stereotypes and so on. its NOT true. there are many foreign families in my area, that dont rob, no violence, no hassle, i have foreign friends, outside of work, lovely people.
and the riots in belfast, well thats another day's work but, lets be honest, football thugs, you wouldnt see anything like that with rugby etc. polish and northern irish scum all fighting and arguing over religion, but i doubt any of them involved attend mass at theyre repective churches.

CCCP^

When alot of the Eastern European states joined the EU, I believe only Sweden, Ireland and the UK allowed the free movement of those peoples into their countries and allowed them to seek work.

Ireland reaped the rewards of the cheap labour that came from Eastern Europe, and now because we are in hard times, people want to send those who are out of work back to their "homes"?

How the **** do you know where their homes are now? Most of the people from the East still here are here because they want to be here, they have bought homes, they are raising children here. This is home now.

If you want to kick out these people, fine. Then I think the EU member states who gave Ireland it's 17 billion in aid since we joined should start looking for some of their money back too.

It is, afterall, hard times.

kevinkilbane

gnxx wrote: »

They are probably entitled to it on the basis that they paid PAYE and PRSI over the last few years???



Purely guessing, but I would say that the Irish state should be showing a significant surplus when comparing taxes paid for non-nationals vs. social security payments to non-nationals. The vast majority of non-nationals are returning back home at this point before claiming the social benefits that they are entitled to.

As for this "look after our own" principle, I would suggest that by paying VAT, PAYE, PRSI etc over several years, then non-nationals should be considered "our own" ..... and we should look after them.

good point, makes sense if thats the way....

EnigmasWhisper

CCCP^ wrote: »

Then I think the EU member states who gave Ireland it's 17 billion in aid since we joined should start looking for some of their money back too.

It is, afterall, hard times.

More of this EU golden cash cow bs . . . . on the same basis, is it also ok for Ireland to also request we have returned the 400 BILLION of fishing waters we have given away ?

It is afterall hardtimes

Again, I refer to what I noted earlier. Ireland has been in recession for 25 of the 35 years we have been in the EU. Not only that, but the recent success has more to do with our goverment lowering corporation taxes (the only credit Ill ever give the fools) than anything to do with the EU. As I also noted earlier, the EU faught our low corporation taxes every step of the way. So lets not get carried away with the 'How we benefited from the EU' soundbites, all of which I wonder where originated from :rolleyes:

marti8

kevinkilbane wrote: »

To be honest your friends deserve to be kicked out of the house, and perhaps have an Aldi can bounced off their forehead. I agree that there are jobs out there, but its getting tougher to find them, and a hell of a lot of people competing against eachother for them.

That said, I honestly do think there is an attitude problem when it comes to Irish people working in particular jobs, and Im not sure if even these difficult times can change it....some seem to think that certain jobs are beneath them etc !!! That annoys me :mad:

yeah your dead right there. many many irish people think some jobs are beneath them, why i dont know. jobs like mcdonalds, burger kings are laughed at. im not saying there are thousands of jobs available in these places or elsewhere. but they are two jobs that are jokes within our society, why i dont know!!!!! its very very annoying alright.[/quote]

These days we have bankers, accountants, architects and other professionas applying for jobs at McDonalds......and if they are lucky getting them. See: http://www.accountancyage.com/accountancyage/news/2237608/accountants-apply-mcdonalds

EnigmasWhisper

gnxx wrote: »

The vast majority of non-nationals are returning back home at this point before claiming the social benefits that they are entitled to

Valid point there gnxx. It will be interesting to see what numbers remain / leave next year

marti8

gnxx wrote: »

They are probably entitled to it on the basis that they paid PAYE and PRSI over the last few years???



Purely guessing, but I would say that the Irish state should be showing a significant surplus when comparing taxes paid for non-nationals vs. social security payments to non-nationals. The vast majority of non-nationals are returning back home at this point before claiming the social benefits that they are entitled to.

As for this "look after our own" principle, I would suggest that by paying VAT, PAYE, PRSI etc over several years, then non-nationals should be considered "our own" ..... and we should look after them.

Em, where are you getting your figures from to support your assertion that "the vast majrity of non-nationals are returning back home at this point before claiming the social benefits that they are entitled to"?

There are over 42,000 nationals from the "new" EU States on the dole in Ireland, if that number DOESN'T rise it will cost the IRISH State over HALF A BILLION EURO each year to support them. And that doesn't even take into consideration rent allowance, medical cards etc. And many of those non-nationals would have been on minimum wage jobs which in the first instance means they would NOT have paid tax.

So, at a time when there isn't even enough money for IRISH nationals on the dole we, the State, are dishing out over half a billion euro on dole payments to non-nationals.......crazy.

EnigmasWhisper

marti8 wrote: »

And many of those non-nationals would have been on minimum wage jobs which in the first instance means they would NOT have paid tax

Hadnt considered that

marti8

EnigmasWhisper wrote: »

Oh right, that explains it then. You might consider getting another career then

I suggest you report me then, because I doubt very much any moderator or grown adult would consider the above a personal 'insult'

This is funny, a poster here called me "nazi", "ignorant", "fool" and whatever else and in reply I called him/her "immature".......and I got a warning......lol...

EnigmasWhisper

marti8 wrote: »

This is funny, a poster here called me "nazi", "ignorant", "fool" and whatever else and in reply I called him/her "immature".......and I got a warning......lol...

Well if I get a warning for jokingly suggesting someone considers a career change, because he / she declares themselves an 'expert' in how the Irish 'system' works . . . . Im going to laugh, and laugh profously. 'Profously' doesnt suit that sentence I know but I love that word, 'profously'