Non-citizens getting the dole? Time to stop it?

marti8

CCCP^ wrote: »

When alot of the Eastern European states joined the EU, I believe only Sweden, Ireland and the UK allowed the free movement of those peoples into their countries and allowed them to seek work.

Ireland reaped the rewards of the cheap labour that came from Eastern Europe, and now because we are in hard times, people want to send those who are out of work back to their "homes"?

How the **** do you know where their homes are now? Most of the people from the East still here are here because they want to be here, they have bought homes, they are raising children here. This is home now.

If you want to kick out these people, fine. Then I think the EU member states who gave Ireland it's 17 billion in aid since we joined should start looking for some of their money back too.

It is, afterall, hard times.

The EU gave ireland all that grant aid because they had it to give, do you think we'd get the same generous ammounts today given the global financial crisis, I think not. the difference is they had it then, we don't have it NOW.

And yes, they gave us a good deal of money but we also opened our irish territorial waters to EU fishing fleets, i wonder how many billion that cost US?

I have said previously that if a foreigner has a genuine connection to this country (owns a house here for example) that they should be able to claim social welafre, I don't have a problem with that. Yes, we have to be aware of individual cases of genuine connection to Ireland but very many of those non-nationals now on the dole have no such "real" connection.

K-9

marti8 wrote: »

There are over 42,000 nationals from the "new" EU States on the dole in Ireland, if that number DOESN'T rise it will cost the IRISH State over HALF A BILLION EURO each year to support them. And tat doesn't even take into consideration rent allowance, medical cards etc. And many of those non-nationals would have been on minimum wage jobs which in the first instance means they would NOT have paid tax.

True, it doesn't take account of rent allowance etc. Thing is, you are also not taking account of Employers PRSI, VAT, Excise duties and the value of their spending to the economy.

I'm also suspicious of this point about minimum wage. I don't want a SW system discriminating based on earning power.

marti8

ejmaztec wrote: »

I would suggest that you read the forum rules re personal insults.

Huh, I don't remember you leaping to my defence when one of your compatriots was labelling me a "nazi", "ignorant", "fool" etc etc.......a bit selective there, aren't we?

kevinkilbane

These days we have bankers, accountants, architects and other professionas applying for jobs at McDonalds......and if they are lucky getting them. See: http://www.accountancyage.com/accountancyage/news/2237608/accountants-apply-mcdonalds[/quote]


didnt know that. id love to meet these 500 accountants, architects and other professionals applying for the job, that would be about €10 an hour. i cant imagine a fully qualified accountant(40years old, prob used to be earning 50k) serving me a lovely big mac and diet coke... cant see it happening. i cant even remember the last time an irish person served me in mac donalds. can you?????

marti8

K-9 wrote: »

True, it doesn't take account of rent allowance etc. Thing is, you are also not taking account of Employers PRSI, VAT, Excise duties and the value of their spending to the economy.

I'm also suspicious of this point about minimum wage. I don't want a SW system discriminating based on earning power.

The employers PRSI is paid not by the employee of course but by the employer, the State should keep it because god knows the State will need it.

It's hard to say how much any one individual has been taxed by way of VAT etc, it is unquantifiable really. With all the east European cigs floating around I wouldn't say it was much on them for one....lol

I have always said if a non-national has paid tax then by all means let them claim that tax back by way of social welfare benefits if they need it, upto the ammount they have paid in in the first place. That seems fair to me.

marti8

kevinkilbane wrote: »

These days we have bankers, accountants, architects and other professionas applying for jobs at McDonalds......and if they are lucky getting them. See: http://www.accountancyage.com/accountancyage/news/2237608/accountants-apply-mcdonalds

didnt know that. id love to meet these 500 accountants, architects and other professionals applying for the job, that would be about €10 an hour. i cant imagine a fully qualified accountant(40years old, prob used to be earning 50k) serving me a lovely big mac and diet coke... cant see it happening. i cant even remember the last time an irish person served me in mac donalds. can you?????[/quote]


Badabababa......I 'm loving it! (Or whatever the Polish translation is!)....:) There was no problem with non-nationals working here, in McDonalds or anywhere else (although personally I think Irish spit has more bite to it.....) when times were good, of course not, we needed workers and we got them, boy did we! But now times are not good, to put it very mildly, these days there is not even enough money for Irish citizens on the dole........It isn't the fault of foeigners, the fault lies squarely at the doorstep of our government for allowing everyone and his cousin in....instead of having a work permit system or a quota system. And now we're reaping the whirlwind of it. But it is an isssue that will have to be addressed somehow, someway, sometime.

K-9

marti8 wrote: »

The employers PRSI is paid not by the employee of course but by the employer, the State should keep it because god knows the State will need it.

It's based on the employees wages and counts as PRSI contributions on their behalf.

marti8 wrote:

It's hard to say how much any one individual has been taxed by way of VAT etc, it is unquantifiable really. With all the east European cigs floating around I wouldn't say it was much on them for one....lol

Indeed, so let's just conveniently ignore it and bring in some other irrelevant point. Manys the Irish person who bought the cigs!

marti8 wrote:

I have always said if a non-national has paid tax then by all means let them claim that tax back by way of social welfare benefits if they need it, upto the ammount they have paid in in the first place. That seems fair to me.

The Foreign Nationals don't decide the tax rates or tax entry points, the Govt. does. It's simply unfair to dismiss the contribution they made to the economy based on a populist and incorrect decision of Govt.

marti8

K-9 wrote: »

It's based on the employees wages and counts as PRSI contributions on their behalf.



Indeed, so let's just conveniently ignore it and bring in some other irrelevant point. Manys the Irish person who bought the cigs!



The Foreign Nationals don't decide the tax rates or tax entry points, the Govt. does. It's simply unfair to dismiss the contribution they made to the economy based on a populist and incorrect decision of Govt.

But the fact is that those non-nationals who were on minmum wage jobs did not themselves pay any tax....whether their emplyers did or did not is of no consequence. The individual worker did not. So, if you really, really want to give the employer PRSI contribution back, then, and this goes against my socialist principles, but give it back to the employer who can reinvest it.

No matter what country they had lived in they would have paid VAT etc...be it Ireland, Poland, Latvia or Mongolia. That tax went to providing street lights (that they and everyone else needed), roads (that they and everyone else used)....listen I could go on and on along this line.

So, your suggestion is that we continue to pay 42,000 (and these are simply the non-nationals from the "new" EU States) dole every week, which if figures stay the same will cost the country dearly, over half a billion a year and I haven't even included secondary benefits such as rent allowance, med cards etc......look, we will be in this black hole for many years to come, it isn't gonna improve in a year or two....this could last a decade if we're not extremely careful. We have to put Irish citizens first when we have a very limited social welfare kitty, it's as simple as that I'm afraid.

Mena

You're going to need to separate EU "non Irish Nationals" from Non EU "non Irish Nationals" frankly.

Ceasing SW payments to the latter would be simpler (ignoring the fact that they've already contributed) but ceasing SW to the former would open a whole can of worms as this is EU wide policy.

It's not something any government can arbitrarily decide to do on a whim.

K-9

marti8 wrote: »

But the fact is that those non-nationals who were on minmum wage jobs did not themselves pay any tax....whether their emplyers did or did not is of no consequence. The individual worker did not. So, if you really, really want to give the employer PRSI contribution back, then, and this goes against my socialist principles, but give it back to the employer who can reinvest it.

No matter what country they had lived in they would have paid VAT etc...be it Ireland, Poland, Latvia or Mongolia. That tax went to providing street lights (that they and everyone else needed), roads (that they and everyone else used)....listen I could go on and on along this line.

So, your suggestion is that we continue to pay 42,000 (and these are simply the non-nationals from the "new" EU States) dole every week, which if figures stay the same will cost the country dearly, over half a billion a year and I haven't even included secondary benefits such as rent allowance, med cards etc......look, we will be in this black hole for many years to come, it isn't gonna improve in a year or two....this could last a decade if we're not extremely careful. We have to put Irish citizens first when we have a very limited social welfare kitty, it's as simple as that I'm afraid.

The fact is that the Govt. chooses the tax rates and credits applicable, not me, you or any foreign nationals. The fact is they have paid tax.

They did pay tax. VAT, duties etc., you are only ignoring that because you want to subjectively include what tax suits your argument.

The fact that Ireland is a low tax, high spending economy isn't a foreign Nationals fault.

Anyway, you'll be glad to see that as and from January 2009, people who earned less than €300 get a reduced payment.

From January 2009, a reduced rate of Jobseeker's Benefit is payable if your average weekly earnings in the Relevant Tax Year before you became unemployed were under €300. Average weekly earning is your total earnings from employment divided by the number qualifying contributions in the Relevant Tax Year. The Relevant Tax year is 2 years before the year of your claim. For example, if you claim Jobseeker's Benefit in 2009 the Relevant Tax Year is 2007.
http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Schemes/JobseekerSupports/JobseekersBenefit/Pages/jb.aspx

Ties in nicely with your socialist principles I'm sure. You can be sure this figure will be adjusted upwards in due course.

scorpioishere

Some people on this board really needs to go and learn how to write proper english language. May be they should learn it from the non-nationals who have a better level of english language here in ireland.

marti8

Mena wrote: »

You're going to need to separate EU "non Irish Nationals" from Non EU "non Irish Nationals" frankly.

Ceasing SW payments to the latter would be simpler (ignoring the fact that they've already contributed) but ceasing SW to the former would open a whole can of worms as this is EU wide policy.

It's not something any government can arbitrarily decide to do on a whim.

Yes, it would open a can of worms, an expensive can of over probably around the billion mark at least.

What can legally be done, right now, not on contravention of anything as far as I know, is that the qualifying citeria for social welfare for non-Irish EU nationals (ex.UK citizens) can be increaed from having to have been in employment for 2 years to say 10 years, or 6 or 7. That could be done. The Irish government already "discriminates" I'd call it differentiates between Irish and non-Irish citizens (ex.UK citizens) when it comes to social welfare, simply extend it! Not ideal but a positive step in the right direction.

marti8

scorpioishere wrote: »

Some people on this board really needs to go and learn how to write proper english language. May be they should learn it from the non-nationals who have a better level of english language here in ireland.

Hmmmm, ok first things first....."ireland" has a capital "I".....may be in the context you are using it in is one word "maybe"........"really needs".....do you mean "really need"?......."how to write proper english language".....capital "E" for "English" and you probably mean "how to write English properly"........

But thanks for your input, last time you had anything to say I believe you were calling me a "nazi", "fool", "ignorant" etc.....:pac: I guess when one doesn't have an argument all one can do is talk about English language skills in Ireland (see, capital "I"......:)) and call people names......

P. Breathnach

marti8 wrote: »

The employers PRSI is paid not by the employee of course but by the employer, the State should keep it because god knows the State will need it.

Employer's PRSI is paid to the state for the benefit of the employees. It would be quite dishonourable to decide now that the benefit should not be delivered.

I have always said if a non-national has paid tax then by all means let them claim that tax back by way of social welfare benefits if they need it, upto the ammount they have paid in in the first place. That seems fair to me.

Entitlement to many SW benefits is based on paying PRSI (including counting in the employer's contribution), and not on PAYE or VAT or excise duty on drink or tobacco or petrol. PRSI is based on the principles of insurance (that's what the "I" represents). How would it be if your motor insurance claims were limited to the amount of the premiums you had paid? It would make a nonsense of the very idea of insurance.

EnigmasWhisper

scorpioishere wrote: »

Some people on this board really needs to go and learn how to write proper english language. May be they should learn it from the non-nationals who have a better level of english language here in ireland.

Considering the grammatical errors above and your atrocious vocabulary, I wouldn't get too excited correcting native speakers english on this thread. Just because you have difficulty understanding the english on this thread, doesn't mean it isn't 'proper' english.

Your level of english is akin to that of a clever 5 yr old child by the way

However, you did cheer me up and I salute you on your confidence when attempting to correct the english of native english speakers lol Im going onto Polish Forums now to correct everyones Polish there The chancers havent a clue how to converse correctly in their native language pfffttt

K-9

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Employer's PRSI is paid to the state for the benefit of the employees. It would be quite dishonourable to decide now that the benefit should not be delivered.



Entitlement to many SW benefits is based on paying PRSI (including counting in the employer's contribution), and not on PAYE or VAT or excise duty on drink or tobacco or petrol. PRSI is based on the principles of insurance (that's what the "I" represents). How would it be if your motor insurance claims were limited to the amount of the premiums you had paid? It would make a nonsense of the very idea of insurance.

Very good point. Surprised I missed it myself.

It's a specific contribution to the SW system, unlike VAT and PAYE which are general taxes. Personally I believe the rate is too low compared to other European countries and the entry point is too high.

It's mad that a country that has one of the highest SW payment rates has one of the lowest contribution rates, but sure, we are a low tax/high spend economy!

marti8

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Employer's PRSI is paid to the state for the benefit of the employees. It would be quite dishonourable to decide now that the benefit should not be delivered.



Entitlement to many SW benefits is based on paying PRSI (including counting in the employer's contribution), and not on PAYE or VAT or excise duty on drink or tobacco or petrol. PRSI is based on the principles of insurance (that's what the "I" represents). How would it be if your motor insurance claims were limited to the amount of the premiums you had paid? It would make a nonsense of the very idea of insurance.

Well if the State did what was best for Ireland it would keep the employers PRSI contribution or else return it to the employer to be reinvested, I'm sure it would help out many companies who are having such trouble getting loans these days. But listen, the employers PRSI contributions aren't the real problem, so really I wouldn't be too pushed what they did with them. They, the government, could even decide to pay abck the employers portion of PRSI to the employee by way of social welfare payment if need be.....I have no major problem with that. I'd prefer it the other ways I have suggested but I guess we can't have everything we want all the time.....:D

Em, and yes I do know that jobseekers benefit for instance is dependant on your PRSI contributions, however jobseekers allowance is not. Nor, as far as I am aware, is Supplementary Welfare Allowance from the HSE.

Simple fact is that Ireland's running out of money fast, the social welfare kitty is shrinking day by day and week by week......Irish people are paying the price for allowing easy access to our jobs market and easy access to social welfare for non-nationals. We have a 2 year qualifying period for non-nationals seeking a social welfare payment, extend it. As I have said before, not ideal but a positive first step.

procure11

marti8 wrote: »

No, I'm not xenophobic or racist. I am just wondering how much it costs the State in dole payments to cover EU nationals in Ireland who have worked but are now unemployed and entitled under the current regime to social welfare payments?

Yes, they paid their taxes, fair enough. Personally I think it would be a good idea to allow those non-nationals to get social welfare until they have in effect recouped the ammount they have paid in taxes but then say no more.

A few months before all the eastern European countries joined the EU I was in an eastern European capital on holiday and while there (I don't want to say which one) I met the Irish ambassador and we had an informal chat during which the issue of eastern Europeans flooding into Ireland was raised and both myself and the ambassador couldn't believe that the government were going to allow it!

I know we needed, at that time, workers for the Irish economy but what we could have done was introduce a "green card" scheme, simple as that. It would have been the easiest thing to do but no. Non-nationals are costing, yes costing not contributing, the Irish economy hundreds of millions of euro on social welfare payments each year. Plus we have added strain on our public services. Now, today, in these economic times we have to say enough is enough. If there aren't enough jobs for Irish people then non-nationals need to return to their own countries. And I would say the exact same thing, although I wouldn't like it, if the roles were reversed.

Each country, each State needs to look after its own citizens first. Simple as that. Now, I have to add that I am in reciept of a social welfare payment, am I a burden on the State, yes of course I am but I as an Irish citizen have the right to expect the State to support me if I cannot work or if I cannot find work. And I hasten to add my spouse is a non-national, you might say "kick her out too!" if you try to reverse it and use my own logic but not so, as an Irish citizen I am entitled to marry whom ever I see fit, Irish or not, and have the right to be financially supported. That is the basis of the welfare state. Our welfare system was designed for Irish people and their dependants not half of Europe! (I know it's an exageration)

Ireland is a soft touch and has been for ages, it CANNOT continue given our current problems, we're running out of money fast while still paying non-national the same social welfare entitlements as Irish nationals! I know many folks might disagree with me and say I am focusing on a vulnerable group but they miss the point, in Ireland we have X ammount of money for social welfare, we can barely help our own citizens nevermind everyone else's! But I think many folks will, hopefully, also agree with me.

I have an issue on how you started your thread.....stupid.Do you know how many Irish citizens are illegally claiming benefits in the Uk...No you dont.I can equally claim I had a conversation with the American or German Ambassador in 1999/2000 about bringing Company Operations to Ireland or about our government even till the T-shock literally begging the Americans to pardon our citizens to stay in the US...Keep shut my friend .It always comes around,U dont just dont like it bcos it is or turn.

marti8

K-9 wrote: »

Very good point. Surprised I missed it myself.

It's a specific contribution to the SW system, unlike VAT and PAYE which are general taxes. Personally I believe the rate is too low compared to other European countries and the entry point is too high.

It's mad that a country that has one of the highest SW payment rates has one of the lowest contribution rates, but sure, we are a low tax/high spend economy!

I'd support higher taxes........if we want a proper, functioning welfare state we're gonna have to pay for it. If not then we'll leave it as it is and we can sit back and laugh as our social structure disintegrates around us and we'll most certainly cry when it comes time to reap what we've sown.

K-9

marti8 wrote: »

Well if the State did what was best for Ireland it would keep the employers PRSI contribution or else return it to the employer to be reinvested, I'm sure it would help out many companies who are having such trouble getting loans these days.

There actually is a Back to Work scheme. If an employer takes on somebody that has been long term unemployed they qualify for an exemption on Employers PRSI. Definitely something the Govt. should be looking at now and improving.

marti8

procure11 wrote: »

I have an issue on how you started your thread.....stupid.Do you know how many Irish citizens are illegally claiming benefits in the Uk...No you dont.I can equally claim I had a conversation with the American or German Ambassador in 1999/2000 about bringing Company Operations to Ireland or about our government even till the T-shock literally begging the Americans to pardon our citizens to stay in the US...Keep shut my friend .It always comes around,U dont just dont like it bcos it is or turn.

What on earth are you talking about? If you actually had read this thread or part of it you would clearly see that because the UK and Ireland have a pre-existing relationship regarding the free movement of people, access to social welfare etc etc that the UK is not included in this little thread. The UK and Irelands relationship isn't dependant on EU Treaty Rights.

Em, why exactly are you talking about welfare fraud anyway? I'm not.....This thread is not about welfare fraud, you do know that don't you? :pac:

And no I won't keep shut my friend, no doubt that is what you would like, to stiffle debate...sorry pal.

Aseth

Marti8:

it seems the one thing that you and your alike are not able to grasp is that majority of Eastern Europeans are here to work, earn money for whatever they wanted to achieve. If there's no job, there's no money so they move on somewhere else where they can earn it. Dole isn't very much, especially in Dublin, where prices are over the top in comparison to the rest of the country.
There are some that are here to wait for the crisis to finish and if they are on the dole than they were paying taxes for at least 2 yrs. And again it's not only PRSI but anything you buy has tax in it and I know you can only estimate it but c'mon. And what do you suggest to do with me alikes that just wanted to live in other European country 'cause it was they dream for God knows how long?
And what do you intend to do about ppl who just sit on the dole and however this country was doing - good or bad, will stay on it as they are too lazy to work(not only Irish - cause fair enough you're at home but others, like let's say Nigerians who never worked here, they just claim benefits and have 4 or more kids?).

K-9

marti8 wrote: »

I'd support higher taxes........if we want a proper, functioning welfare state we're gonna have to pay for it. If not then we'll leave it as it is and we can sit back and laugh as our social structure disintegrates around us and we'll most certainly cry when it comes time to reap what we've sown.

The thing is, we are increasing taxes and PRSI in times of recession, this should have been addressed 5/6 years ago. Then again, not too many were protesting when the taxes and PRSI reductions were being passed on or when the many foreign nationals were paying the taxes and PRSI that resulted in record exchequer returns.

Everybody is looking for a scapegoat, in your case foreign nationals. We need to make cuts fairly. I believe in the "scalpel" approach, not the "hatchet" one.

EnigmasWhisper

procure11 wrote: »

I have an issue on how you started your thread.....stupid.Do you know how many Irish citizens are illegally claiming benefits in the Uk...No you dont.I can equally claim I had a conversation with the American or German Ambassador in 1999/2000 about bringing Company Operations to Ireland or about our government even till the T-shock literally begging the Americans to pardon our citizens to stay in the US...Keep shut my friend .It always comes around,U dont just dont like it bcos it is or turn.

No offence, but thats nonsense.

Nobody has been discussing the UK on this thread and the main topic here is about non nations receiving benefits here.

Irish citizens in the US illegally shouldnt be there, dont remember anyone here saying they should be either ?

Are you answering posts here by mistake ?

EnigmasWhisper

Aseth wrote: »

Marti8:There are some that are here to wait for the crisis to finish

So you are suggesting they will remain here on the dole anywhere between 4 and 10 years until this 'crisis' ends ?

lol

K-9

marti8 wrote: »

What on earth are you talking about? If you actually had read this thread or part of it you would clearly see that because the UK and Ireland have a pre-existing relationship regarding the free movement of people, access to social welfare etc etc that the UK is not included in this little thread. The UK and Irelands relationship isn't dependant on EU Treaty Rights.

Em, why exactly are you talking about welfare fraud anyway? I'm not.....This thread is not about welfare fraud, you do know that don't you? :pac:

And no I won't keep shut my friend, no doubt that is what you would like, to stiffle debate...sorry pal.

The UK granted that relationship for a reason, they stuck bye it, even during Maggies days.

We granted a relationship to Eastern European countries for a reason? Yes?

Aseth

EnigmasWhisper wrote: »

So you are suggesting they will remain here on the dole anywhere between 4 and 10 years until this 'crisis' ends ?

lol

wow! we have a genius here. it's good to know from someone so 'knowledgable' how long this crisis will last. Lol

Seriously now: the claims are not a problem if you consider someone who really wants to work. They are a problem when sb claims it never having contributed in any way and doesn't intend to in the future - whatever nationality they are.

marti8

Aseth wrote: »

Marti8:

it seems the one thing that you and your alike are not able to grasp is that majority of Eastern Europeans are here to work, earn money for whatever they wanted to achieve. If there's no job, there's no money so they move on somewhere else where they can earn it. Dole isn't very much, especially in Dublin, where prices are over the top in comparison to the rest of the country.
There are some that are here to wait for the crisis to finish and if they are on the dole than they were paying taxes for at least 2 yrs. And again it's not only PRSI but anything you buy has tax in it and I know you can only estimate it but c'mon. And what do you suggest to do with me alikes that just wanted to live in other European country 'cause it was they dream for God knows how long?
And what do you intend to do about ppl who just sit on the dole and however this country was doing - good or bad, will stay on it as they are too lazy to work(not only Irish - cause fair enough you're at home but others, like let's say Nigerians who never worked here, they just claim benefits and have 4 or more kids?).

Oh right, they just go somewhere else is it? Huh, I guess that's why we have over 42,000 national from the "new" EU States on the dole here then who will be costing the State over half a billion in dole paymenst alone- nevermind rent allowance etc, yeah, I see your point....(not)

And where exactly would they go exactly, given we are in a GLOBAL downturn? You also fail to realise that your average east European on the dole here in Ireland has a much higher standard of living than at home in their own country (trust me I have been all over eastern Europe and I know the standard of living there compared to here)

People who just sat on the dole as you suggested and I assume you mean folks who you would consider as so-called "spongers" well, that is for a totally different thread, that would be filed under welfare fraud (in as much as they could work but didn't look) Then there were also folks who were on the dole in the good times who for whatever reason could not find work.

So, your average east European on the dole here in Ireland still gets more here than were they in their home country working full time, not to mention being unemployed in eastern Europe (not nice). I know I actually worked in Poland at one time.

marti8

Aseth wrote: »

wow! we have a genius here. it's good to know from someone so 'knowledgable' how long this crisis will last. Lol

Seriously now: the claims are not a problem if you consider someone who really wants to work. They are a problem when sb claims it never having contributed in any way and doesn't intend to in the future - whatever nationality they are.

And what if there is NO work?

marti8

K-9 wrote: »

The UK granted that relationship for a reason, they stuck bye it, even during Maggies days.

We granted a relationship to Eastern European countries for a reason? Yes?

Yes, we "granted" a relationship to eastern European countries for one plain as day reason, we NEEDED workers.......NOW we don't. Simple.