Non-citizens getting the dole? Time to stop it?

marti8

K-9 wrote: »

The thing is, we are increasing taxes and PRSI in times of recession, this should have been addressed 5/6 years ago. Then again, not too many were protesting when the taxes and PRSI reductions were being passed on or when the many foreign nationals were paying the taxes and PRSI that resulted in record exchequer returns.

Everybody is looking for a scapegoat, in your case foreign nationals. We need to make cuts fairly. I believe in the "scalpel" approach, not the "hatchet" one.

No, I am not looking for a scapegoat. the issue of non-nationals and dole is just one issue of many, as I have said before. Yet, it IS still an issue and should be addressed. Just because it is only one among many does not mean it doesn't need to be addressed........especially as it is costing the Irish State dearly and will cost us over half a billion yearly on dole paymenst to east Europeand alone, nevermind all the secondary benefits as I have said.

I believe Irish nationals have a legitimate right to social welfare and the secondary benefits, I do not believe non-nationals should have the same rights, especially during times of SEVERE economic downturn.

K-9

marti8 wrote: »

Oh right, they just go somewhere else is it? Huh, I guess that's why we have over 42,000 national from the "new" EU States on the dole here then who will be costing the State over half a billion in dole paymenst alone- nevermind rent allowance etc, yeah, I see your point....(not)

Less there taxes Marti8, less there taxes Marti8. The whole basis of your posts is on the taxes they paid, so please say 42,000 claiming SW, less their taxes.

The taxes paid is the whole foundation of your posts, so include it.

marti8 wrote: »

Yes, we "granted" a relationship to eastern European countries for one plain as day reason, we NEEDED workers.......NOW we don't. Simple.

And perfidious Albion never used our workers?

Aseth

marti8 wrote: »

Oh right, they just go somewhere else is it? Huh, I guess that's why we have over 42,000 national from the "new" EU States on the dole here then who will be costing the State over half a billion in dole paymenst alone- nevermind rent allowance etc, yeah, I see your point....(not)

If they are on the dole HERE, than it means that paid taxes relevant to IRELAND, not their own country. So sorry but I DON'T see your point.

marti8 wrote: »

And where exactly would they go exactly, given we are in a GLOBAL downturn? You also fail to realise that your average east European on the dole here in Ireland has a much higher standard of living than at home in their own country (trust me I have been all over eastern Europe and I know the standard of living there compared to here)

For me your logic looks that way: it was nice to have here people from all over Europe as long as they wanted to do the sh*te jobs noone then even looked at and help building irish economy but now... let's say it: simply tell them all to eff off back to where they came from.

marti8

K-9 wrote: »

Less there taxes Marti8, less there taxes Marti8. The whole basis of your posts is on the taxes they paid, so please say 42,000 claiming SW, less their taxes.

The taxes paid is the whole foundation of your posts, so include it.



And perfidious Albion never used our workers?

Of course less their taxes, that is if they actually paid PRSI.......So, as I said when a non-national has "used up" their contributions on social welfare they should be told: sorry, that's all, no more, maybe you should return to your home country and sign on there.

Of course the UK used and uses Irish labour, but I don't see your point? The UK and Ireland have historical, cultural, familial, political etc links above and beyond anything we have with any other EU State. Since the foundation of this State Irish citizns in the UK have for all intents and purposes been treated as British citizens and British citizens in Ireland have been treated as Irish citizens.....we even get to vote in each others general elections, lol. Ireland and the UK have a unique relationship.

P. Breathnach

marti8 wrote: »

Yes, we "granted" a relationship to eastern European countries for one plain as day reason, we NEEDED workers.......NOW we don't. Simple.

We needed workers; we got people.

In any sort of society worth living in, it is necessary that people be treated decently.

K-9

Aseth wrote: »

For me your logic looks that way: it was nice to have here people from all over Europe as long as they wanted to do the sh*te jobs noone then even looked at and help building irish economy but now... let's say it: simply tell them all to eff off back to where they came from.

It all comes down to how well paid they where.

But Mart8 is a socialist.

Wait a sec, is that you Bertie?

marti8

Aseth wrote: »

If they are on the dole HERE, than it means that paid taxes relevant to IRELAND, not their own country. So sorry but I DON'T see your point.



For me your logic looks that way: it was nice to have here people from all over Europe as long as they wanted to do the sh*te jobs noone then even looked at and help building irish economy but now... let's say it: simply tell them all to eff off back to where they came from.

And as I have said a thousand (or maybe half a billion) times before, if a non-national has paid tax then that non-national should be entitled to get social welfare upto the ammount they have paid in tax. That's my point, my point is also: Irish first when it comes to the States limited resources, basically. I wonder how Poland or Polish people would feel or any other east European State or peoples if the roles were reversed.........I can just imagine.

If there is no work for folks and they are a burden on the State and they are not IRISH citizens then yes, they should leave Ireland and return to their home countries and sit out the global downturn there. We have X ammount in the kitty and already Irish people are suffering yet non-nationals continue to get the same entitements as Irish citizens. It is, in my opinion and the opinion of others, an idiotic situation for ireland to be in.

K-9

marti8 wrote: »

Of course less their taxes, that is if they actually paid PRSI.......So, as I said when a non-national has "used up" their contributions on social welfare they should be told: sorry, that's all, no more, maybe you should return to your home country and sign on there.

LOL, nice inclusion of PRSI now, seeing as it has been pointed out they paid taxes, if not PAYE. Their Employer paid PRSI on their behalf as per Legislation and SW rules.

Look, I know the PRSI was too low, but it was too low for everybody, including foreign nationals. If we start selectively picking who paid what taxes, not alone will foreign nationals suffer, our own nationals will be next.

Sure you only worked in a shop, cafe, pub etc.? You get less.

marti8 wrote:

Of course the UK used and uses Irish labour, but I don't see your point? The UK and Ireland have historical, cultural, familial, political etc links above and beyond anything we have with any other EU State. Since the foundation of this State Irish citizns in the UK have for all intents and purposes been treated as British citizens and British citizens in Ireland have been treated as Irish citizens.....we even get to vote in each others general elections, lol. Ireland and the UK have a unique relationship.

YEP, so unique we bombed them.

Maybe that's what the East Europeans are missing?

pcardin

marti8 wrote: »

And what if there is NO work?

Well...there is some work still available but you wouldn't notice that anyway because your day and night is spent here on Boards barking on Eastern European.

Aseth

marti8 wrote: »

If there is no work for folks and they are a burden on the State and they are not IRISH citizens then yes, they should leave Ireland and return to their home countries and sit out the global downturn there. We have X ammount in the kitty and already Irish people are suffering yet non-nationals continue to get the same entitements as Irish citizens. It is, in my opinion and the opinion of others, an idiotic situation for ireland to be in.

Hmm lets count: recession (officially?) started more or less September last year... so according to my calculations we still have over a year to keep claiming the dole here (acc. to you Marti) and then... wait! the lucky ones who are here long enough should apply for citizenship.

Thanks for the tip Marti.

CCCP^

EnigmasWhisper wrote: »

More of this EU golden cash cow bs . . . . on the same basis, is it also ok for Ireland to also request we have returned the 400 BILLION of fishing waters we have given away ?

Exactly where did you get this 400 billion statistic from, thin air?

K-9

CCCP^ wrote: »

Exactly where did you get this 400 billion statistic from, thin air?

Sure what did the EU ever do for us?

gnxx

Great point.

Throughout this thread the term "citizen" has been used. In my book, any non-national who have worked here over the last 5 - 10 years of boom should now be considered citizens.

P. Breathnach wrote: »

We needed workers; we got people.

In any sort of society worth living in, it is necessary that people be treated decently.

gnxx

en⋅ti⋅tle⋅ment /ɛnˈtaɪtlmənt/
1. the act of entitling.
2. the state of being entitled.
3. the right to guaranteed benefits under a government program, as Social Security or unemployment compensation.

marti8 wrote: »

We have X ammount in the kitty and already Irish people are suffering yet non-nationals continue to get the same entitements as Irish citizens. It is, in my opinion and the opinion of others, an idiotic situation for ireland to be in.

pcardin

flag123 wrote: »

What gets to me is when I'm on my lunch break heading down through the town and i can count more foreigners (full families) than Irish people..Wednesday afternoon..

It's just because foreingers are early birds. Irish are still sleeping while you have your lunch hour. They will appear in local Spar after 3pm dressed in pijamas and still sleepy.

marti8

pcardin wrote: »

Well...there is some work still available but you wouldn't notice that anyway because your day and night is spent here on Boards barking on Eastern European.

Lol, boards day and night, not quite. Barking at east Europeans, not quite, lol. But if there is work like you say then why not tell the east Europeans who are on the dole?:) Is that your best response, lmao......

marti8

Aseth wrote: »

Hmm lets count: recession (officially?) started more or less September last year... so according to my calculations we still have over a year to keep claiming the dole here (acc. to you Marti) and then... wait! the lucky ones who are here long enough should apply for citizenship.

Thanks for the tip Marti.

What on earth are you talking about, lol.....

marti8

K-9 wrote: »

Sure what did the EU ever do for us?

Well, they sure don't respect Irish democracy, that's clear...........last year the European Parliament voted that in the event of an Irish NO to Lisbon that the parliament would not accept the Irish vote......and nw our government at the behest of Brussels is going to circumvent the will of the Irish people as democratically expressed by referendum and make us vote yet again.....

K-9

marti8 wrote: »

What on earth are you talking about, lol.....

An unique relationship?

K-9

marti8 wrote: »

last year the European Parliament voted that in the event of an Irish NO to Lisbon that the parliament would not accept the Irish vote

Links or is this more subjective opinion?

marti8

gnxx wrote: »

Great point.

Throughout this thread the term "citizen" has been used. In my book, any non-national who have worked here over the last 5 - 10 years of boom should now be considered citizens.

You must be reading the wrong books then...........A citizen holds a passport, if any EU national meets the criteria and wants an Irish passport then by all means, apply........:)

marti8

gnxx wrote: »

en⋅ti⋅tle⋅ment /ɛnˈtaɪtlmənt/
1. the act of entitling.
2. the state of being entitled.
3. the right to guaranteed benefits under a government program, as Social Security or unemployment compensation.

And?

marti8

pcardin wrote: »

It's just because foreingers are early birds. Irish are still sleeping while you have your lunch hour. They will appear in local Spar after 3pm dressed in pijamas and still sleepy.

Really? Huh, are you sure?.....lol There are over 42,000 east Europeans who have plenty of time to be sleepy heads now.......:D Is that where you work(ed) Spar? Under the tree was it?:pac:

marti8

K-9 wrote: »

An unique relationship?

gnxx

It is absolutely wrong to single individuals out based on nationality. They have contributed either directly (PAYE/PRSI) or indirectly ( Employers PRSI ).

We appear to have an underlying problem with our benefits system whereby some people are better off drawing the dole than working. This applies to Irish and non-Irish equally.

I would like to see a situation where non-contributing members of society have a much harder time getting benefits. The situation whereby people are better off drawing the dole is complete and utter madness.

The vast majority of tax payers get little value for the taxes they pay. One thing that tax payers should expect is unemployment benefit should they have the misfortune to become unemployed.

If we extend the original posters suggestion, would it be reasonable to extend emergency healthcare to Irish citizens only? How about applying the bank guarantee scheme for Irish people only? Could insurance companies refuse to pay for storm damage to houses owned by "non-nationals"?

The state had no problems taking their money in the good days. It is payback time.

marti8

K-9 wrote: »

Links or is this more subjective opinion?

No, not a subjective opinion, check out The Economist if you feel like it:

http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=11328647&CFID=51878504&CFTOKEN=89422867

The European Parliament voted down an amendment to respect the outcome of the Irish referendum on Lisbon. Oh yes, they really cherish democracy alright..........Anyway, that is off topic.

marti8

gnxx wrote: »

It is absolutely wrong to single individuals out based on nationality. They have contributed either directly (PAYE/PRSI) or indirectly ( Employers PRSI ).

We appear to have an underlying problem with our benefits system whereby some people are better off drawing the dole than working. This applies to Irish and non-Irish equally.

I would like to see a situation where non-contributing members of society have a much harder time getting benefits. The situation whereby people are better off drawing the dole is complete and utter madness.

The vast majority of tax payers get little value for the taxes they pay. One thing that tax payers should expect is unemployment benefit should they have the misfortune to become unemployed.

If we extend the original posters suggestion, would it be reasonable to extend emergency healthcare to Irish citizens only? How about applying the bank guarantee scheme for Irish people only? Could insurance companies refuse to pay for storm damage to houses owned by "non-nationals"?

The state had no problems taking their money in the good days. It is payback time.

"Payback time".....lol....well, if you are working you'll be the one paying....;) But that seems to be fine with you. It seems to be fine with you that dole and secondary payments for 42,000 plus east Europeans will come to probably someone in the region of 3/4 of a Billion euro a year......but hey, you are ok with that.

And no, why is it wrong to "single out" non-nationals? Every country in the world does it?
You obviously forget that the citizens of any State are always afforded more rights by that State than a non-citizen, basic civics 101.

And extend whatever you want whenever you want but that is not what this thread is about,lol. Likewise if I follow your "logic" ANY person could come to Ireland at any time and claim social welfare....oh yeah, that'd be good wouldn't it!

Aseth

gnxx wrote: »

It is absolutely wrong to single individuals out based on nationality. They have contributed either directly (PAYE/PRSI) or indirectly ( Employers PRSI ).

We appear to have an underlying problem with our benefits system whereby some people are better off drawing the dole than working. This applies to Irish and non-Irish equally.

I would like to see a situation where non-contributing members of society have a much harder time getting benefits. The situation whereby people are better off drawing the dole is complete and utter madness.

The vast majority of tax payers get little value for the taxes they pay. One thing that tax payers should expect is unemployment benefit should they have the misfortune to become unemployed.

If we extend the original posters suggestion, would it be reasonable to extend emergency healthcare to Irish citizens only? How about applying the bank guarantee scheme for Irish people only? Could insurance companies refuse to pay for storm damage to houses owned by "non-nationals"?

The state had no problems taking their money in the good days. It is payback time.

+1

K-9

marti8 wrote: »

No, not a subjective opinion, check out The Economist if you feel like it:

http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=11328647&CFID=51878504&CFTOKEN=89422867

The European Parliament voted down an amendment to respect the outcome of the Irish referendum on Lisbon. Oh yes, they really cherish democracy alright..........Anyway, that is off topic.

I'd agree with that article, the summation of the No vote is class.

I must research the vote point, as the article is very heavy on opinion and not facts.

gnxx

We took their taxes. In return, we made promises of services that they could expect in certain circumstances. One of these circumstances was unemployment.

We are not talking about the right to vote -- although sometimes I think that stopping the Irish from voting would be a positive move :-)

I never suggested that anybody could just arrive here and claim social welfare. From my understanding, this is not the case.

I have absolutely NO problem with somebody who has worked here and paid taxes drawing the dole. They have paid for it.

The flip side of your reasoning, is that non-nationals who haven't taken advantage of our fine healthcare system, our magnificent teaching facilities and our benevolent social welfare system should get a refund.

marti8 wrote: »

"Payback time".....lol....well, if you are working you'll be the one paying....;) But that seems to be fine with you. It seems to be fine with you that dole and secondary payments for 42,000 plus east Europeans will come to probably someone in the region of 3/4 of a Billion euro a year......but hey, you are ok with that.

And no, why is it wrong to "single out" non-nationals? Every country in the world does it? If I go to France can I vote for the French President? Nope....a foreigner singled out. If I go to Latvia can I just automatically sign on their dole, nope....foreigner singled out.......and on and on and on.
You obviously forget that the citizens of any State are always afforded more rights by that State than a non-citizen, basic civics 101.

And extend whatever you want whenever you want but that is not what this thread is about,lol. Likewise if I follow your "logic" ANY person could come to Ireland at any time and claim social welfare....oh yeah, that'd be good wouldn't it!