Non-citizens getting the dole? Time to stop it?

menoscemo

marti8 wrote: »

I have already explained why eastern Europeans would be less likely to want to return home to a country with a very poor social welfare structure when here in Ireland they could live as they would live, better probably, than even if they were working in their home country.

I also explained why "western" Europeans would be more likely to return home to their countries.

And what I have outlined I am sure does happen and continues to happen, I could equally say to you "you go and find me the evidence that this is not happening" It doesn't as I have said take a genius to do the math. If you choose to ignore that then that's your problem.

I could explain to you that some 'Eastern European' countries have better social welfare systems than some 'Western European' countries, but you would never believe me.


Let's just say that in 80% of 'Western European' countries, a young Citizen returning home after several years working in Ireland would be entitled to €0, that's right, nothing from their country's welfare system. That is a Fact.
Why is this? Because Most 'Western European' Countries have a welfare system based on previous earnings and taxes paid. Specifically you get a % of what you were earning before becoming unemployed as your social welfare payment (which is reduced the longer you are unemployed), providing you have built up enough 'stamps'. A person having lived in Ireland would not have built up sufficient stamps and would therefore not be entitled to significant welfare payments (depending on the country they might be entitled to a small subsistence payment which would be much less than Ireland's €204 p/w plus benefits.) So given these facts about the 'western European', welfare systems, expalin to me again why 'Western Europeans' would be much more likley to go home after becoming unemployed than 'Eastern Europeans' as you have stated above. Please don't come out with rhetoric but give me some facts and figures please.
P.S. I am a western European so please tell me more about my wonderful Western European welfare system that would provide for me so well were I to go home

marti8

menoscemo wrote: »

I could explain to you that some 'Eastern European' countries have better social welfare systems than some 'Western European' countries, but you would never believe me.


Let's just say that in 80% of 'Western European' countries, a young Citizen returning home after several years working in Ireland would be entitled to €0, that's right, nothing from their country's welfare system. That is a Fact.
Why is this? Because Most 'Western European' Countries have a welfare system based on previous earnings and taxes paid. Specifically you get a % of what you were earning before becoming unemployed as your social welfare payment (which is reduced the longer you are unemployed), providing you have built up enough 'stamps'. A person having lived in Ireland would not have built up sufficient stamps and would therefore not be entitled to significant welfare payments (depending on the country they might be entitled to a small subsistence payment which would be much less than Ireland's €204 p/w plus benefits.) So given these facts about the 'western European', welfare systems, expalin to me again why 'Western Europeans' would be much more likley to go home after becoming unemployed than 'Eastern Europeans' as you have stated above. Please don't come out with rhetoric but give me some facts and figures please.
P.S. I am a western European so please tell me more about my wonderful Western European welfare system that would provide for me so well were I to go home

Lol, you are getting off point, this thread is specifically about eastern Europeans, western Europeans is more of a side show. The fact is that many, if not most, eastern Europeans are better off in Ireland whether on the dole or working compared to being in their home countries, whether on the dole there or working there (if they can find work in their own home countries)

But actually now that you have pointed out the situation relating to western Europeans and the social welfare possibilities open to them should they return to their home countries perhaps given the economic situation the country finds itself in now all non-nationals should not recieve social welfare payments of a higher ammount than they have already contributed to the State in taxes. Yes, I may have been wrong to single out eastern Europeans alone.

However, it is generally easier for say a German to get a job in Germany that pays the bills than a Latvian to get a job that pays the bills in Latvia...............

I will always return to my original point and that is that the Irish State has first and foremost a duty and responsibility towards its own citizens......we have seen that eroded. Today Ireland is having a hard time even providing for its own citizens, we have seen this with the 50% cut in dole payments for the under 20's, reductions in rent allowance, scrapping of the xmas dole bonus and so on.....now I don't blame non-nationals for this, this situation lies solely with the government. However, we as a nation have to save money or get into very serious trouble, we're in serious trouble as it is. Savings have to be made......It's as simple as that, if that means that non-nationals only recieve dole payments upto the ammount of tax they have already paid then that is a good move in my opinion. But may never happen, we'll see.......

You know what would be interesting, it would be interesting to discover how many non-Irish nationals were in reciept of social welfare in Ireland and then to compare that to the number of Irish people in reciept of the relevant social welfare in the corresponding country.....I wonder how many Poles get the dole in Ireland and I wonder how many Irish get the dole in Poland, hmmm? I wonder how many Czechs get the dole in Ireland and I wonder how many Irish get the dole in the Czech Republic? I wonder how many Latvians get the dole in Ireland and I wonder how many Irish get the dole in Latvia? I wonder how Poland or Latvia for example would respond to hundreds of thousands of Irish people seeking social welfare in those jurisdictions after having worked for 2 or more years there....I wouldn't say they'd be too pleased....

midlandsmissus

marti8 wrote: »

No, I'm not xenophobic or racist. I am just wondering how much it costs the State in dole payments to cover EU nationals in Ireland who have worked but are now unemployed and entitled under the current regime to social welfare payments?

Yes, they paid their taxes, fair enough. Personally I think it would be a good idea to allow those non-nationals to get social welfare until they have in effect recouped the ammount they have paid in taxes but then say no more.

A few months before all the eastern European countries joined the EU I was in an eastern European capital on holiday and while there (I don't want to say which one) I met the Irish ambassador and we had an informal chat during which the issue of eastern Europeans flooding into Ireland was raised and both myself and the ambassador couldn't believe that the government were going to allow it!

I know we needed, at that time, workers for the Irish economy but what we could have done was introduce a "green card" scheme, simple as that. It would have been the easiest thing to do but no. Non-nationals are costing, yes costing not contributing, the Irish economy hundreds of millions of euro on social welfare payments each year. Plus we have added strain on our public services. Now, today, in these economic times we have to say enough is enough. If there aren't enough jobs for Irish people then non-nationals need to return to their own countries. And I would say the exact same thing, although I wouldn't like it, if the roles were reversed.

Each country, each State needs to look after its own citizens first. Simple as that. Now, I have to add that I am in reciept of a social welfare payment, am I a burden on the State, yes of course I am but I as an Irish citizen have the right to expect the State to support me if I cannot work or if I cannot find work. And I hasten to add my spouse is a non-national, you might say "kick her out too!" if you try to reverse it and use my own logic but not so, as an Irish citizen I am entitled to marry whom ever I see fit, Irish or not, and have the right to be financially supported. That is the basis of the welfare state. Our welfare system was designed for Irish people and their dependants not half of Europe! (I know it's an exageration)

Ireland is a soft touch and has been for ages, it CANNOT continue given our current problems, we're running out of money fast while still paying non-national the same social welfare entitlements as Irish nationals! I know many folks might disagree with me and say I am focusing on a vulnerable group but they miss the point, in Ireland we have X ammount of money for social welfare, we can barely help our own citizens nevermind everyone else's! But I think many folks will, hopefully, also agree with me.

Ay ay ay. The old 'one rule for us another for them'.

If things get so bad you have to go to another country to get work and cant find a job, im sure you will be fighting for your right to get unemployment benefit then.

Oh but when its our precious little Ireland how dare people not born here receive help.

This attitude makes me sick, we live in THE WORLD, we are all people, not one country for us one for them.

When people need help they need help. I saw alot of polish people treated like absolute dirt during the boom times and I think it is what goes around comes around.

marti8

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Ay ay ay. The old 'one rule for us another for them'.

If things get so bad you have to go to another country to get work and cant find a job, im sure you will be fighting for your right to get unemployment benefit then.

Oh but when its our precious little Ireland how dare people not born here receive help.

This attitude makes me sick, we live in THE WORLD, we are all people, not one country for us one for them.

When people need help they need help. I saw alot of polish people treated like absolute dirt during the boom times and I think it is what goes around comes around.

Yes, it is "one rule for us and one rule for them" as you put it , of course it is......a citizen of a country should always have more rights to social benefits than non-citizens, that should be pretty self evident.

Rented Mule

marti8 wrote: »

No, I'm not xenophobic or racist.

........but

I stopped reading ater the opening sentence.

marti8

Rented Mule wrote: »

........but

I stopped reading ater the opening sentence.

Good, lol.....If someone like you thinks that anyone who says they are not xenophobic or racist actually is then automatically xenophobic or racist for declaring they are not, well, then quite honestly you obviously don't have much to contribute

TooMuchCoffee

I'm a non-EU foreigner moving to Ireland soon (my company is transferring some of us to the Ireland office to consolidate teams). Honestly I'm quite worried about it due to the current economic outlook in Ireland.

Anyway I think that (a) the government should firstly do more to eliminate welfare fraud because that's the kind of thing that makes my blood boil, and (b) the period after which non-nationals are entitled to welfare benefits should be increased to the point where they could be considered settled in Ireland, e.g. perhaps 4 years.

I worked in the US for a couple of years and paid social security taxes but as a non-citizen I would have received no benefit at all if I had lost my job and would have needed to return to my own country. I don't see why Ireland couldn't be the same. Yeah sure I see what you're saying regarding being part of the EU and you'd get the same benefit in any other EU country , but considering the obvious issues with dole fraud and considering that Ireland is one of the worst hit (if not the worst) by the recession in the EU, I don't think the current welfare system is in Ireland's best interest.

JMHO

lukasbasic

I'm as an eastern eu national agree with you. You are absolutely right. Those people worked here let's say for 2 years on a minimum wage, contributed close to nothing to the irish economy, sent all the earned money home, due to the low wages didn't pay a lot of tax or prsi...and now claiming 900eu dole a month + other benefits. Many of them are already gone, sending their friend to pickup the dole payment, and showing up once a month to sign off. - Ryanair makes this possible.
Who pays for it? the remaining work force......and debt is rising dangerously high and nobody knows how long that will work....
but dole claimants are only a small part of the whole picture and sending those people home won't save any of the trouble you expierence now

EastWallGirl

Marti8

By any chance are you under 20?

If we are to take this to its logical conclusion that means the undocumented Irish in the States should be sent home, they actually have no right to be there, the 'Eastern Europeans' that you speak of are here legally, whether you like it or not.

Ahhh but that is different for most people isn't it?

Zeppi

you are a racist, that's what you are.

stevelknievel

marti8 wrote: »

There is no sensible reason as to why east European national should be a burden on this State especially in these very tough times we are facing.

I wonder how many Poles get the dole in Ireland and I wonder how many Irish get the dole in Poland, hmmm? I wonder how many Czechs get the dole in Ireland and I wonder how many Irish get the dole in the Czech Republic? I wonder how many Latvians get the dole in Ireland and I wonder how many Irish get the dole in Latvia?

you are getting off point, this thread is specifically about eastern Europeans, western Europeans is more of a side show

Is there a sensible reason why any non-national should be a burden on the State? Is there a sensible reason why someone who has been screwing the State for the last 15 years, when there were plenty of jobs but they couldn't be bothered getting one, should be a burden to the State?
As for your second 'argument'. That's a ridiculous statement. When Irish people needed help, Eastern Europe would not have been able to provide it. Why not ask the same questions about the US, England, even Australia.
Ant btw, the title of the thread, which you wrote, is 'non-nationals getting the dole', so to claim it is specifically about Eastern Europeans, is contradicting yourself.
Did you know, there was a community on the border with the North where there were more people claiming the dole than actually lived there. Because of people coming down and bringing it back up. That (and everyone who claims the dole when they're not living here)is a much bigger problem than someone who has lived and worked here for 2 years getting some help when they've landed on hard times. The welfare in this country is a lot more generous than most others, Eastern, western non -EU, whatever. Most people would be better off staying here. In light of this, can you please explain what the problem is with Eastern Europeans specifically. SLightly OT, but the welfare payments here really should be means tested. To give someone living at home, rent free, free food etc the exact same amount someone who has a mortgage, car payments, kids, loans etc is ludicrous. I'd rather give 200 quid to an Eastern European who really needs it than an Irish person who doesn't.

Helix

EastWallGirl wrote: »

If we are to take this to its logical conclusion that means the undocumented Irish in the States should be sent home

they should be tho

fourfiveone

This is mad. The thread refers to 'non-citzens' in title but after reading through the debate becomes increasingly narrowed. Not 'non-citzens' from the UK or any Western European country. Not 'non-citizens' who may have married OP just Eastern Europeans.

I'm half expecting someone specfic to be identified: ok, we'll keep all these 'non-citzens' but not the Polish girl who used to work in Spar down the road because she didn't respond enthusiastically when I tried to flirt with her.

If we 'send them back where they came from' should all 'non-citizens' in Prague and Warsaw have to give up the apartments they bought? These returning people will need somewhere to live and the needs of citizens should come before 'non-citzens' (but only Irish).

Hobbes

lukasbasic wrote: »

Many of them are already gone, sending their friend to pickup the dole payment, and showing up once a month to sign off. - Ryanair makes this possible.

REPORT THEM RATHER THEN WHINING ABOUT IT.

Seriously, if you have proof it is happening then report it. It is the only way to stop fraud.

bigbadpat

You should be sent home if you are from another EC country and have not worked for a year and be allowed to collect Social Welfare in your own counry at the rate applicable in that country. The Irish Government would reimburse your home Country for the Social Welfare paid.

wildsaffy

I read somewhere in psychology that the thing you most complain about is what you do wrong yourself.

I should imagine Irish people are the most outraged about defrauding the social welfare system because ... well... the Irish have been so good at it abroad. Oops, and here too, people could teach Master Classes into how to defraud the system.

Anyway ... what makes sense is that there is a pot of infinite size and to take out of it you have to put into it.

Am off to spray the rabbits pink.

lukasbasic

Hobbes wrote: »

REPORT THEM RATHER THEN WHINING ABOUT IT.

Seriously, if you have proof it is happening then report it. It is the only way to stop fraud.

this has to be done on a global level ex. requesting photo ID within every payment collection they receive. Reporting a case from a 'friend of a friend which shares a house with him' is not a solution, but I am sure this cases exist and the solution to stop this fraud is very easy - but the government has to implement it

springo

Shall we tell Irish people in non-EU countries who are on welfare (and yes, I know plenty) to "go home" to claim welfare?

I know of some Irish in my country claiming welfare, and not exactly abiding by the rules. Of course I'm not going to stereotype them because I'm certain that more than a few of the citizens of my country are ripping off the government coffers in my country.

inforfun

There is 2 things that should be done with people on the Dole.

1. Those who have been claiming it for years, before 2006, should be getting at least 25% less now.
They couldnt be arsed to find a job in the good times. I could not be arsed supporting them then and certainly not now.
2. Those who commit fraud with any kind of social welfare and are found out should receive nothing nada zilch. If they happen to be non-nationals, boot them out to where they come from.

RiverWilde

Great to see the xenophobia and racism is alive and well in the Banana Republic of Ireland. What next? If you can't trace your roots back to the Beaker People you don't have the right to stay here?

The OP really needs to re-evaluate his stance. It's that kind of attitude that has kept Europe divided and these islands isolated.

We are all European Citizens, with rights and responsiblilites that go with that. To deny other citizens the right to live and work anywhere in the Union is plainly wrong. The same applies to social welfare.

Riv

DubDani

I don't think that Foreigners claiming the Dole is necessarily the problem. I think the problem is the amount and the length of the dole being paid.

Dole should be paid to everyone who has made his PRSI contributions for a year. Then in the second year of claiming the Dole payments should be cut by at least 25% for everyone.

If you haven't found a job after 2 years the Dole should either be completely removed, or people should be forced to work for it (i.e. cleaning streets, Parks, etc.).

Mr.Micro

Some of the posts here appear to think its a crime for people to be on the dole. What should they do starve for integrity's sake so that they are not beholden to the state? If people are entitled, no matter where they are from then that is that and rightly so. All this tough talk about dole claimants in unprecedented economic times is just pure bile. If its so great on the dole maybe the whingers should join it and then report back.

Dyr

The beauty of the EU is that our govt. can no longer act in the best interest of its citizens in situations like this, which is what they're elected to do.

Of course other european countries tend not to have a problem with acting against the EU when its in their national interest, like ole sarkozy with the french car industry.

How many non nationals are on welfare here now anyway?

Nody

marti8 wrote: »

And no, I said earlier that if east Europeans have paid tax and then become unemployed they should recieve that tax paid back in kind by way of a social welfare payment and when they have recieved that ammount back that's it, no more. They then have to return to their own countries.

Pay back all the money Ireland has got from EU with interest and we'll talk, ok?

Talk about throwing stone in a glass house...

As note, I'm NOT from Eastern Europe but I find it quite frankly insulting that Ireland, which was a Eastern Europe country for all intent and purpose until recently; who've got billions in support from EU and sent people all around the world suddenly says that it is not good enough for immegrants who've worked at least two years to stay here. Ignoring their contributions to the local economy in terms of renting, purchases, work etc.

Actually I'll put the number down for you directly, please return the 34+ Billion EUR with interest and revalued to today's value, thank you in advance from the people who've paid into the Irish economy.

O'Morris

Large scale immigration is one of the things that makes the recession we're in now much more difficult to deal with than previous recessions. Not only do we have to support the hundreds of thousands of Irish citizens out of work but we also have to support thousands of non-Irish people who have lost their jobs as well.

Our government made the wrong decision when they decided to lift the restrictions on the eastern europeans back at the time of EU enlargement a few years ago. I remember hearing the economist Moore McDowell on the radio at the time warning about the dangers of allowing hundreds of thousands of non-nationals access to our welfare system. If our economy really needed their labour (i.e. needed to build so many houses) then we could have had a liberal work-permit system that would have at least tied immigration to the needs of our economy. We now have surplus foreign labour in the country and the competition of jobs that this lead to will it make it far more difficult to reduce unemployment.

And comparisons with the Irish in other countries needs to take account of the differences in the relative sizes of the population. I would be surprised if the number of unemployed Irish in England ever reached anywhere near as high a percentage of the total as the number of non-nationals unemployed now make up of the total unemployed in this country. The latest I heard the figure for non-nationals on the dole is now around 20% of the total.

marti8 wrote:

Personally I think it would be a good idea to allow those non-nationals to get social welfare until they have in effect recouped the ammount they have paid in taxes but then say no more.

I would be surprised if the amount of money that someone on the average industrial wage would contribute in taxes over a two year period would be enough to cover the costs of supporting them on the dole for more than a few months. I might be wrong about that though.

Highsider

Yes. Close the doors and lock the windows whilst were at it.

Highsider

DubDani wrote: »

I don't think that Foreigners claiming the Dole is necessarily the problem. I think the problem is the amount and the length of the dole being paid.

Dole should be paid to everyone who has made his PRSI contributions for a year. Then in the second year of claiming the Dole payments should be cut by at least 25% for everyone.

If you haven't found a job after 2 years the Dole should either be completely removed, or people should be forced to work for it (i.e. cleaning streets, Parks, etc.).

Agreed. Far to many lazy doleheads out there who have no intention of ever working again. Lifers (who are'nt on disability benefit) should be made work for their dole. If they don't work they get nowt.

aare

inforfun wrote: »

2. Those who commit fraud with any kind of social welfare and are found out should receive nothing nada zilch.

So they move on to hard crime?

That will work.:rolleyes:

aare

bigbadpat wrote: »

You should be sent home if you are from another EC country and have not worked for a year and be allowed to collect Social Welfare in your own counry at the rate applicable in that country. The Irish Government would reimburse your home Country for the Social Welfare paid.

That doesn't really work because our prices are so much higher than in most EU countries...

Remember, a lot of EU nationals have been here years or decades, and their country of origin is an alien world where they know nobody and nothing now.

Helix

aare wrote: »

So they move on to hard crime?

That will work.:rolleyes:

so if people might turn to crime we should placate them with lots of free money for doing nothing?

sound