Non-citizens getting the dole? Time to stop it?

greendom

The bottom line is that we are members of the EU. This has benefited the country in countless ways and will continue to do so

Some people may be unhappy that the state has to pay benefits to recent arrivals who are out of work but there's nothing that can be done about it, short of leaving the EU altogether.

Surely we should be more concerned about getting people back to work and contributing to the economy and society rather than bickering about something that cannot be changed without an enormous amount of pain.

inforfun

aare wrote: »

So they move on to hard crime?

That will work.:rolleyes:

Do you realise what you just typed? Now it is my time to roll the eyes... :rolleyes:

aare

Helix wrote: »

so if people might turn to crime we should placate them with lots of free money for doing nothing?

sound

Well, it's that, or pay out a lot more money to thwart 'em (if we can), imprison 'em and make up the shortfall to their victims...

inforfun wrote: »

Do you realise what you just typed?

Of course I do, it was in small simple enough words.

Deny anyone the means of survival and they will survive by any means they can (just as you would), and that may not be in your best interests...

In a time of recession, it's all about minimising losses, not punitive measures that maximise them. Save them for a time when you can afford it if you must.

...and while I am on it, you do realise that the current adjustments to rent supplements will cost anyone capable of bullying their landlord far less than anyone who is not.

inforfun

aare wrote: »

Well, it's that, or pay out a lot more money to thwart 'em (if we can), imprison 'em and make up the shortfall to their victims...



Of course I do, it was in small simple enough words.

Deny anyone the means of survival and they will survive by any means they can (just as you would), and that may not be in your best interests...

In a time of recession, it's all about minimising losses, not punitive measures that maximise them. Save them for a time when you can afford it if you must.

...and while I am on it, you do realise that the current adjustments to rent supplements will cost anyone capable of bullying their landlord far less than anyone who is not.

I am talking about people who take more than they should get by fraud. They are already criminals, they should be punished already.

They are already stealing from me now, via the governement and its levies.
At least when they try to rob me in person i can defend myself.

aare

inforfun wrote: »

I am talking about people who take more than they should get by fraud. They are already criminals, they should be punished already.

They are already stealing from me now, via the governement and its levies.
At least when they try to rob me in person i can defend myself.

In a financial crisis, punitive measures that incur additional cost to society and state are a luxury that cannot be afforded just to give you "warm fuzzies". :rolleyes:

(Though I might also be inclined to question your choice of "warm fuzzy stimulant" on the grounds that the kind of measures you advocate also, inevitably, cause considerable, expensive, suffering to genuinely innocent, associated parties, like small children, there doesn't seem to be a lot of point, or need)

Also, any money these individuals have made by Social Welfare Fraud tends to be very small "pin money" stuff, even before you compare it with the bankers and businessmen who ripped us all off for billions...

There is no harm in retaining a sense of proportion you know...

marti8

lukasbasic wrote: »

I'm as an eastern eu national agree with you. You are absolutely right. Those people worked here let's say for 2 years on a minimum wage, contributed close to nothing to the irish economy, sent all the earned money home, due to the low wages didn't pay a lot of tax or prsi...and now claiming 900eu dole a month + other benefits. Many of them are already gone, sending their friend to pickup the dole payment, and showing up once a month to sign off. - Ryanair makes this possible.
Who pays for it? the remaining work force......and debt is rising dangerously high and nobody knows how long that will work....
but dole claimants are only a small part of the whole picture and sending those people home won't save any of the trouble you expierence now

I hope you don't think, being easetern European yourself, that I am xenophobic, in fact nothing could be further from the truth. I totally believe that those non-nationals who have paid taxes here are entitled to recieve social welfare upto the ammount of tax that they have contibuted to the State. And I have no problem with non-nationals working here either, just as long as an Irish person isn't being denied a job because the positions are taken by non-nationals already.

However, cutting off social welfare after a certain point for non-nationals will reduce the burden they impose on Ireland. It will reduce the ammount of money which the Irish State is paying to non-Irish nationals. It will reduce our debt. And yes, it goes without saying that welfare fraud has to be tackled, another problem but not, I would guess although I don't have the figures - a simple guess, that dole for non-nationals costs Ireland more than fraud. Both issues need to be tackled. And I speak as an individual in reciept of a social welfare payment.

mayordenis

marti8 wrote: »

I hope you don't think, being easetern European yourself, that I am xenophobic, in fact nothing could be further from the truth. I totally believe that those non-nationals who have paid taxes here are entitled to recieve social welfare upto the ammount of tax that they have contibuted to the State. And I have no problem with non-nationals working here either, just as long as an Irish person isn't being denied a job because the positions are taken by non-nationals already.

However, cutting off social welfare after a certain point for non-nationals will reduce the burden they impose on Ireland. It will reduce the ammount of money which the Irish State is paying to non-Irish nationals. It will reduce our debt. And yes, it goes without saying that welfare fraud has to be tackled, another problem but not, I would guess although I don't have the figures - a simple guess, that dole for non-nationals costs Ireland more than fraud. Both issues need to be tackled. And I speak as an individual in reciept of a social welfare payment.

What you're talking about is totally illegal, If you want to cut off people at the point of the full amount of tax they have payed previously it would have to be to all people in this country absolutely regardless of nationality.
I'm sorry but you're talking about something that can't just be turned around and stopped, it would of course been leaving the EU, distancing ourselves from any good relations with have with any country.
You may aswell be talking about South African levels of aparthide. The laws are simple and should no change.
You're very flipantly dismissing the jobs that are still in the economy, the important point is that the average Irish person is still to up themselves to take a job cleaning or what have you.

marti8

EastWallGirl wrote: »

Marti8

By any chance are you under 20?

If we are to take this to its logical conclusion that means the undocumented Irish in the States should be sent home, they actually have no right to be there, the 'Eastern Europeans' that you speak of are here legally, whether you like it or not.

Ahhh but that is different for most people isn't it?

No, I am not under 20, luckily! The 50% dole reductions for the under 20's is a disgrace. Yes, we have to save money or this State WILL go bankrupt, there is no doubt about that. But there are better ways to save money than targetting those who are already on the margins of our society.

That is why I think the government should look at introducing a scheme whereby non-nationals, and I apologise for only focusing on eastern Europeans previously, whereby ALL non-nationals only get social welfare upto the ammount they have already contributed in taxes (perhaps with the exception of the UK - why? Because of the very close economic, political and historical ties between our 2 countries....also because being a realist and being practical there are far more Irish in the UK getting dole than British in Ireland getting the dole, this is a numbers game, this is reality, this is all about doing what is best for Ireland. Every State should do what is best for that State. If that means Irish are kicked out of other countries because they are denying a job to a local so be it, if that means irish are kicked out of other countries because they are on social welfare there above and beyond the ammount of tax they have paid in that State, again so be it)

marti8

mayordenis wrote: »

What you're talking about is totally illegal, If you want to cut off people at the point of the full amount of tax they have payed previously it would have to be to all people in this country absolutely regardless of nationality.
I'm sorry but you're talking about something that can't just be turned around and stopped, it would of course been leaving the EU, distancing ourselves from any good relations with have with any country.
You may aswell be talking about South African levels of aparthide. The laws are simple and should no change.
You're very flipantly dismissing the jobs that are still in the economy, the important point is that the average Irish person is still to up themselves to take a job cleaning or what have you.

We live in a new reaity, the old rules are exactly that, old rules....as we have seen with the 50% cut in dole for the under 20's. For the size of our population Ireland I believe has one of the highest proportions of EU nationals living within its jurisdiction, now please someone correct me if I am wrong. While at the same time Ireland is one of the worst affected EU countries from this global crisis.

You say that jobs are still in the economy, perhaps there are but there are definetly not enough jobs for Irish people.....many positions are already filled by non-nationals and that IS a fact. You have accountants trying, and I stress "trying" to get jobs in McDonalds.......but these days instead of competing solely against other nationals for jobs they and everyone else who is trying to get a job also has to compete against non-nationals also. This IS a crazy situation.

marti8

Zeppi wrote: »

you are a racist, that's what you are.

Oh grow up! Just because someone questions the right or wrongs of non-nationals being a burden on the State does not make someone a racist. And racists don't usually marry non-nationals, grow up. If you can't engage in proper adult debate then you shouldn't try to.

marti8

stevelknievel wrote: »

Is there a sensible reason why any non-national should be a burden on the State? Is there a sensible reason why someone who has been screwing the State for the last 15 years, when there were plenty of jobs but they couldn't be bothered getting one, should be a burden to the State?
As for your second 'argument'. That's a ridiculous statement. When Irish people needed help, Eastern Europe would not have been able to provide it. Why not ask the same questions about the US, England, even Australia.
Ant btw, the title of the thread, which you wrote, is 'non-nationals getting the dole', so to claim it is specifically about Eastern Europeans, is contradicting yourself.
Did you know, there was a community on the border with the North where there were more people claiming the dole than actually lived there. Because of people coming down and bringing it back up. That (and everyone who claims the dole when they're not living here)is a much bigger problem than someone who has lived and worked here for 2 years getting some help when they've landed on hard times. The welfare in this country is a lot more generous than most others, Eastern, western non -EU, whatever. Most people would be better off staying here. In light of this, can you please explain what the problem is with Eastern Europeans specifically. SLightly OT, but the welfare payments here really should be means tested. To give someone living at home, rent free, free food etc the exact same amount someone who has a mortgage, car payments, kids, loans etc is ludicrous. I'd rather give 200 quid to an Eastern European who really needs it than an Irish person who doesn't.

I take it you are referring to the 50% dole cut for the under 20's, well, you forget to realise that not all under actually live at home, for any number of reasons, including the fact that this State recognises 18 as being the adult age. We have now cut the dole in half for adults, that is unacceptable as far as I see it.

As for people "screwing" as put it the Irish social welfare system, what exactly do you mean? Do you mean Irish people availing of Irish social welfare by in large paid for by Irish taxpayers? I have no problem with that. I do have a problem with the Irish State paying non-nationals over and above that ammount which they have already paid in taxes, that I do have a very real problem with....especially in these economic times when our government can't even pay Irish people full social welfare. Yes, that I do have a problem with.

marti8

fourfiveone wrote: »

This is mad. The thread refers to 'non-citzens' in title but after reading through the debate becomes increasingly narrowed. Not 'non-citzens' from the UK or any Western European country. Not 'non-citizens' who may have married OP just Eastern Europeans.

I'm half expecting someone specfic to be identified: ok, we'll keep all these 'non-citzens' but not the Polish girl who used to work in Spar down the road because she didn't respond enthusiastically when I tried to flirt with her.

If we 'send them back where they came from' should all 'non-citizens' in Prague and Warsaw have to give up the apartments they bought? These returning people will need somewhere to live and the needs of citizens should come before 'non-citzens' (but only Irish).

Wow, how you totally miss the point.... If irish people who own property abraod are a burden to that State then yes, by all means let that State say sorry we ain't giving you any more money, yes, it is a simple as that. Do you seriously think that Irish people with apartments or whatever in Prague or wherever else are on the dole in those countries, lmao....

marti8

springo wrote: »

Shall we tell Irish people in non-EU countries who are on welfare (and yes, I know plenty) to "go home" to claim welfare?

I know of some Irish in my country claiming welfare, and not exactly abiding by the rules. Of course I'm not going to stereotype them because I'm certain that more than a few of the citizens of my country are ripping off the government coffers in my country.

It is upto each State to decide what is best for that State. What is best for Ireland, these days, right now, in the crisis we're in, would be for the State to stop paying dole to non-nationals above and beyond the ammount of taxes that that individual has paid to the State.

If other States want to stop paying dole above and beyond the ammount of tax that Irish person has paid to that particular State then that is fine, let them do that.

As I have said in earlier replies I am not including the UK with whom we have a special arrangement, historical, cultural, political links etc etc....and also because if we are talking about what is best for Ireland then it is best for Ireland if the Irish who are on the dole in the UK stay in the UK at this precarious time, pure realism.

marti8

RiverWilde wrote: »

Great to see the xenophobia and racism is alive and well in the Banana Republic of Ireland. What next? If you can't trace your roots back to the Beaker People you don't have the right to stay here?

The OP really needs to re-evaluate his stance. It's that kind of attitude that has kept Europe divided and these islands isolated.

We are all European Citizens, with rights and responsiblilites that go with that. To deny other citizens the right to live and work anywhere in the Union is plainly wrong. The same applies to social welfare.

Riv

Here we go again, someone says anything about non-nationals and they are labelled xenophobic, racist or whatever else....seriously! Listen, my spouse is a non-national, are you still going to say I am xenophobic...don't be stupid. And by the way, I am pro-European not anti-European. That however doesn't by definition mean I support non-nationals getting social benefits in Ireland indefinetly, I don't support that, why shoud I, why would I? It ISN'T good for Ireland...sure it's good for non-nationals and their countries (as their home countries don't have to accept responsibility for them) but it is NOT good for Ireland. We are running out of money fast, the realities have changed.

I wouldn't deny an EU national the right to live, work or claim social welfare just as long as they weren't depriving an Irish person of a job and just as long as they weren't being paid dole above and beyond that which they had contributed in taxes. You seem to forget that this is exactly what the EU already does to 2 EU member States, Bulgaria and Romania.

marti8

Nody wrote: »

Pay back all the money Ireland has got from EU with interest and we'll talk, ok?

Talk about throwing stone in a glass house...

As note, I'm NOT from Eastern Europe but I find it quite frankly insulting that Ireland, which was a Eastern Europe country for all intent and purpose until recently; who've got billions in support from EU and sent people all around the world suddenly says that it is not good enough for immegrants who've worked at least two years to stay here. Ignoring their contributions to the local economy in terms of renting, purchases, work etc.

Actually I'll put the number down for you directly, please return the 34+ Billion EUR with interest and revalued to today's value, thank you in advance from the people who've paid into the Irish economy.

If the EU wanted to give us all that money it was upto it to decide, we are of course very gateful that they did that however does not mean we are beholden to the EU in some way.

You forget to mention that Ireland also opened it's waters to EU fishing fleets, some of the richest waters, or at least they were, in the EU....I wonder how much the monetary value of that was to the EU?


And I have never said EU nationals cannot stay here, what I have said is that they should only recieve dole upto the same ammount that they have paid in taxes to the State. And that they shouldn't be employed where in their place an Irish person can be employed. Simple.

inforfun

aare wrote: »

In a financial crisis, punitive measures that incur additional cost to society and state are a luxury that cannot be afforded just to give you "warm fuzzies". :rolleyes:

(Though I might also be inclined to question your choice of "warm fuzzy stimulant" on the grounds that the kind of measures you advocate also, inevitably, cause considerable, expensive, suffering to genuinely innocent, associated parties, like small children, there doesn't seem to be a lot of point, or need)

Also, any money these individuals have made by Social Welfare Fraud tends to be very small "pin money" stuff, even before you compare it with the bankers and businessmen who ripped us all off for billions...

There is no harm in retaining a sense of proportion you know...

I thought this thread was about the dole. Not about bankers who f*cked up handsomely. There are 1 or 2 separate threads for that somewhere here.

I just can not agree with your thinking that we should give people money otherwise they might commit crimes. Even if that money they are taking now is already a crime by itself. I am talking about fraud here.

aare

inforfun wrote: »

I just can not agree with your thinking that we should give people money otherwise they might commit crimes. Even if that money they are taking now is already a crime by itself. I am talking about fraud here.

Honestly, I see that, and I see your point...but now, when there ARE no viable, legal options to turn to, even with the best will in the world, is not the right time to turn off anybody's sole income...for any reason...

Because, if you do, they will only have two alternatives, crime or suicide...and it really isn't fair (or sensible) to count on them opting for suicide...now is it?

menoscemo

You seem to think that everyone agrees that Irish people have the right to claim unemployment benefit to Infinity. Most people disagree with you. Whether Irish Polish or Nigerian I think no-one has a right to claim 'the dole' for as long as they want, and their dole should be cut the longer they are unemployed (and eventually stopped altogether if they still don't find a job.) You are saying there should be one rule for Irish and another rule for Polish which is ridiculous

Also LOL at saying you don't deny An Eu national the right to live in Ireland
'as long as they are not depriving Irish people of a job'
No-one is ever denying irish people a job. Irsh people deny themselves jobs by seeing a job as below them or not well enough paid. IMO cutting everyones dole the longer they are unemployed would soon have Irish people working as cleaners and serving in filling stations. The reason there are so many Eastern Europeans here is be cause so many Irish people see certain jobs as being below them and prefer to claim the dole.

marti8

menoscemo wrote: »

You seem to think that everyone agrees that Irish people have the right to claim unemployment benefit to Infinity. Most people disagree with you. Whether Irish Polish or Nigerian I think no-one has a right to claim 'the dole' for as long as they want, and their dole should be cut the longer they are unemployed (and eventually stopped altogether if they still don't find a job.) You are saying there should be one rule for Irish and another rule for Polish which is ridiculous

Also LOL at saying you don't deny An Eu national the right to live in Ireland
'as long as they are not depriving Irish people of a job'
No-one is ever denying irish people a job. Irsh people deny themselves jobs by seeing a job as below them or not well enough paid. IMO cutting everyones dole the longer they are unemployed would soon have Irish people working as cleaners and serving in filling stations. The reason there are so many Eastern Europeans here is be cause so many Irish people see certain jobs as being below them and prefer to claim the dole.

Wrong. I think you have time warped back to the good old days, the Bertie era, that's over. While it may have been the case that Irish people wouldn't take certain jobs before the same cannot be said these days. These days we have accountants and other professionals looking for jobs in McDonalds....but the problem is now that very many, if not the majority, of low paying minimum wage jobs are already taken by non-nationals!

How can an 18 or 19 year old Irish man or woman get a low paying job if those very same low paying jobs are now taken by non-nationals? While at the very same time their dole has been cut in half. Do you not see the prediciment we as a nation are in?! It is grossly unfair. You are seriously saying that non-nationals, through no fault of their own I admit, are not denying Irish nationals of jobs...of course they are. If I or anyone walked into lets say a McDonalds or a Tesco looking for a job we might well be told there are none available...yet, we will see non-nationals working there, so yes, Irish nationals are, ARE, being deprived of jobs.


And I would say that most Irish people are rightly proud of our welfare State, knowing that should they ever need it it's there for them. What gives an Irish citizen the right to retain social welfare payments longer than a non-Irish citizen? The very fact that they are Irish. As I said before the first obligation of ANY State is to look after her own citizens......CITIZENS.

Heineken Helen

marti8 wrote: »

Nope, you seem to have difficulty following this topic. I am not talking about the dependants of an Irish citizen be they non-national or not, I am talking about east Europeans who come here, work for over 2 years, become unemployed through, probably, no fault of their own and who then can claim Irish social welfare indefinetly. That is what I am talking about, "d'ya get me like?"

I get ya... but those people certainly aren't the problem.

marti8

Heineken Helen wrote: »

I get ya... but those people certainly aren't the problem.

Non-nationals having the very same social welfare entitlements (after working for 2 years) as Irish nationals is a problem, one that is especially pressing given the current economic times we're in.

When Irish people cannot get jobs because the positions are already filled by non-nationals this IS a problem.

greendom

marti8 wrote: »

And I would say that most Irish people are rightly proud of our welfare State, knowing that should they ever need it it's there for them. What gives an Irish citizen the right to retain social welfare payments longer than a non-Irish citizen? The very fact that they are Irish. As I said before the first obligation of ANY State is to look after her own citizens......CITIZENS.

Marti, what you have failed to grasp is that Ireland is part of the EU. This means that a person from any part of the EU has as equal rights in Ireland as any irish person. There is no difference. You're going to have to accept that unless you would rather Ireland leave the EU.

I believe you to be wrong, morally, but EU law is against you as well , fortunately,.

I copied this for you from Wikipidea

Free movement of workers


Broadly defined, this freedom enables citizens of one Member State to travel to other to work there (permanently or temporarily). The idea behind EU legislation in this field is that citizens from other member states should be treated equally with domestic ones – they should not be discriminated against.
The main provision of the freedom of movement of persons is Article 39 (ex 48) of the EC Treaty that prohibits restrictions on the basis of nationality.
Workers have the right to move to a different Member State, to look for work and be employed under the same conditions as nationals of that State and benefit from the same social and tax advantages. This right has been extended by the Court of Justice to family members that accompany the worker, although they derive their rights from the main holder. Family members from non-EU states also have these rights. To claim these rights, family members must complete specific paperwork. In the United Kingdom, for example, the relevant document is the EEA family permit.
Free trade and markets in labour services is an essential component of economic freedom generally. National statutory minimum wage control is one of the major remaining official barriers to the establishment of a free common or single European labour market. Statutory minimum wage control or wage fixing has been criticised as:
a special form of tariff protectionism that excludes low cost competitors from the labour market;
a breach of the anti-slavery clause in the European Convention on Human Rights -- insofar as any authority that dictates minimum prices at which persons must sell their own labour services is effectively exercising economic ownership and control over those persons; and
indirectly discriminatory. That is to say, while national minimum wage fixing schemes prevent low skill/low productivity workers in general from obtaining employment by selling their services below the official rate, they particularly act against young persons, women, and ethnic and cultural minorities seeking work.

Darkbloom

marti8 wrote: »

Non-nationals having the very same social welfare entitlements (after working for 2 years) as Irish nationals is a problem, one that is especially pressing given the current economic times we're in.

When Irish people cannot get jobs because the positions are already filled by non-nationals this IS a problem.

Sadly for nasty little xenophobes like you, the fact that they are non-nationals is irrelevant if they hold EU citizenship.

marti8

greendom wrote: »

Marti, what you have failed to grasp is that Ireland is part of the EU. This means that a person from any part of the EU has as equal rights in Ireland as any irish person. There is no difference. You're going to have to accept that unless you would rather Ireland leave the EU.

I believe you to be wrong, anyway, morally but EU law is against you as well , fortunately, I copied this for you from Wikipidea

Yes, I am fully aware of the rules and regulations but I am also fully aware that non-nationals who are in reciept of social welfare payments above and beyond what they have contributed in taxes is costing Ireland dearly.

We now also have the situation where many if not most of the low paying jobs in Ireland are already taken by non-nationals, even though Irish people are now looking for those very same jobs but cannot find them. The situation has changed. As far as I know and please corect me if I am wrong, the EU already "discriminates" against 2 EU member States, Bulgaria and Romania. Also as far as I know Germany and some other member States restricted access to Germany to citizens of the "new" member States who sought work, Ireland did not....and now we see the result.

What I am saying is that the staus quo is not good for Ireland.

marti8

Darkbloom wrote: »

Sadly for nasty little xenophobes like you, the fact that they are non-nationals is irrelevant if they hold EU citizenship.

Lol, xenophobe.....why? Because I ask reasonable questions such as why should non-nationals be a burden to the State. Your post shows your immaturity.

Darkbloom

Also as far as I know Germany and some other member States restricted access to Germany to citizens of the "new" member States who sought work...

Ah, I see, I thought your point was that the foreign scu....sorry, non-nationals were TAKING OUR JOBS AND OUR WOMEN but if they didn't in fact come here to work, what's the problem? Why aren't Irish people in those jobs if there were in fact no non-nationals filling them?

Darkbloom

marti8 wrote: »

Lol, xenophobe.....why? Because I ask reasonable questions such as why should non-nationals be a burden to the State. Your post shows your immaturity.

Your arguments have amounted to:

"SEND THEM ALL HOME!"

"THEY'RE DEPRIVING GOOD OLD IRISH PEOPLE OF JOBS BY HAVING JOBS IRISH PEOPLE WOULDN'T TAKE IN THE GOOD TIMES!"

"I CAN'T POSSIBLY BE XENOPHOBIC I HAVE A NON-IRISH WIFE!"

Go on, show us some actual reasoning as to why we should override the labour market and EU law.

mayordenis

marti8 wrote: »

Lol, xenophobe.....why? Because I ask reasonable questions such as why should non-nationals be a burden to the State. Your post shows your immaturity.

Marti you attack everyone who has disagreed.
Your view actually is xenophobic, while I don't believe you are some hate-filled person it is definately xenophobic.

Burden on the state? There are so many different burdens on the state and when the law backs them you can't just pick and choose who to drop.

You're not living in reality here.

greendom

marti8 wrote: »

Yes, I am fully aware of the rules and regulations but I am also fully aware that non-nationals who are in reciept of social welfare payments above and beyond what they have contributed in taxes is costing Ireland dearly.

We now also have the situation where many if not most of the low paying jobs in Ireland are already taken by non-nationals, even though Irish people are now looking for those very same jobs but cannot find them. The situation has changed. As far as I know and please corect me if I am wrong, the EU already "discriminates" against 2 EU member States, Bulgaria and Romania. Also as far as I know Germany and some other member States restricted access to Germany to citizens of the "new" member States who sought work, Ireland did not....and now we see the result.

What I am saying is that the staus quo is not good for Ireland.

As to Romania and Bulgaria, that was part of their condition of entry - soon they will be full members and have the same freedoms as the rest of the EU.

Ireland benefited greatly from the eastern Europeans that came here with their skills and eagerness to work. Benefited more than it is having to pay out now.

It is not the eastern Europeans who caused the mess this country is in now. It is some of the very citizens you wish to protect above other nationalities. The cabal of politicians, bankers and property developers who screwed the rest of the country. I don't think too many of these people were from Eastern Europe. Why should the Eastern Europeans leave because others messed up. ?

marti8

Darkbloom wrote: »

Ah, I see, I thought your point was that the foreign scu....sorry, non-nationals were TAKING OUR JOBS AND OUR WOMEN but if they didn't in fact come here to work, what's the problem? Why aren't Irish people in those jobs if there were in fact no non-nationals filling them?

Again, so immature...lol :pac: The realities have changed, Irish people may not have taken low paying jobs before but now what happens if an Irish person wants to take a low paying job but those very same low paid jobs are already taken by non-nationals.......and at the very same time the job seeker has had their dole cut in half.....?

Again, as far as I and many others are concerned the first responsibility of ANY State is to the welfare of their own citizens.