Non-citizens getting the dole? Time to stop it?

Heineken Helen · 09-04-2009 9:55pm

marti8 wrote: »

Non-nationals having the very same social welfare entitlements (after working for 2 years) as Irish nationals is a problem, one that is especially pressing given the current economic times we're in.

When Irish people cannot get jobs because the positions are already filled by non-nationals this IS a problem.

So blame the employer... for a while after I got laid off I was a bit bitter and if I walked into a shop, cafe, pub, whatever, and saw mainly non-Irish staff, I made a conscious effort to walk out so as not to support such employers. People will take whatever work they can get... including eastern europeans... I choose to support businesses who've shown they support local staff. I'm living in England now but I still support the employers here to pick someone local ahead of me.

Irish people can't get jobs cos THERE ARE NO JOBS! Don't blame the eastern european who came to Ireland for a better life for that.

Mr.Micro · 09-04-2009 9:57pm

It is not the eastern Europeans who caused the mess this country is in now. It is some of the very citizens you wish to protect above other nationalities. The cabal of politicians, bankers and property developers who screwed the rest of the country. I don't think too many of these people were from Eastern Europe. Why should the Eastern Europeans leave because others messed up. ?

absolutely right and they did not need any help doing it. Its the ill informed who latch on to blame others instead of the real Irish homegrown incompetents.

marti8 · 09-04-2009 10:00pm

Darkbloom wrote: »

Your arguments have amounted to:

"SEND THEM ALL HOME!"

"THEY'RE DEPRIVING GOOD OLD IRISH PEOPLE OF JOBS BY HAVING JOBS IRISH PEOPLE WOULDN'T TAKE IN THE GOOD TIMES!"

"I CAN'T POSSIBLY BE XENOPHOBIC I HAVE A NON-IRISH WIFE!"

Go on, show us some actual reasoning as to why we should override the labour market and EU law.

Can you read? Or is it just that you have difficulty with anyone saying the job of any State is to put its own citizens first? I'd like you to point out where I have said "send them all home?" I have said that I have no problem with non-nationals recieving social welfare upto the ammount they have paid in taxes to the State.

I have never said I am against foreign workers, that is fine. Just as long as those foreign workers are not depriving Irish citizens of jobs. I make no apologies for that. You seem to think all is well in Ireland that times haven't changed, well, they have....Irish people are now willing to take low paid jobs yet those jobs are very often already taken by non-nationals.

And yes, my spouse is not Irish yet you seem to think that I am still xenophobic, check the dictionary, darling.

Darkbloom · 09-04-2009 10:02pm

I'm ignoring the rest as others have made the points but you didn't like their answers either, however this Daily Mail gem is simply too good to resist...

And yes, my spouse is not Irish yet you seem to think that I am still xenophobic, check the dictionary, darling.

"I'm not racist, I have black friends."

marti8 · 09-04-2009 10:04pm

Heineken Helen wrote: »

So blame the employer... for a while after I got laid off I was a bit bitter and if I walked into a shop, cafe, pub, whatever, and saw mainly non-Irish staff, I made a conscious effort to walk out so as not to support such employers. People will take whatever work they can get... including eastern europeans... I choose to support businesses who've shown they support local staff. I'm living in England now but I still support the employers here to pick someone local ahead of me.

Irish people can't get jobs cos THERE ARE NO JOBS! Don't blame the eastern european who came to Ireland for a better life for that.

There are so few jobs because very many of the jobs are already taken by non-nationals. You tell a 19 or 20 year old who will have €100 a week to live on....sorry, no jobs, they are taken by foreigners...... Our government could have introduced a work permit scheme they choose not to. This is not the fault of non-nationals, I never said it was. But nonetheless, given our current economic crisis the old rules are useless, we have to be open to new thinking.

marti8 · 09-04-2009 10:09pm

Darkbloom wrote: »

I'm ignoring the rest as others have made the points but you didn't like their answers either, however this Daily Mail gem is simply too good to resist...

"I'm not racist, I have black friends."

:pac: Oh, some people, makes me laugh..... My point is xenophobes don't tend to marry foreigners........Xenophobes don't say "I have no problem with foreign workers"....xenophobes tend not to say "give them social welfare"....xenophobes don't tend to say "it's not the foreigners fault"....yet you still label me as a xenophobe, lol. Darling, you can call me anything you want, even a total c*nt if it makes you feel better......:)

Heineken Helen · 09-04-2009 10:10pm

marti8 wrote: »

There are so few jobs because very many of the jobs are already taken by non-nationals. You tell a 19 or 20 year old who will have €100 a week to live on....sorry, no jobs, they are taken by foreigners...... Our government could have introduced a work permit scheme they choose not to. This is not the fault of non-nationals, I never said it was. But nonetheless, given our current economic crisis the old rules are useless, we have to be open to new thinking.

Ah so your 19 year old twins are no longer able to help you support your English wife and that's why you're so bitter?

It's the only conclusion I can draw that doesn't leave you being a xenophobe

marti8 · 09-04-2009 10:11pm

Mr.Micro wrote: »

absolutely right and they did not need any help doing it. Its the ill informed who latch on to blame others instead of the real Irish homegrown incompetents.

I have never blamed non-nationals for this crisis, never. In fact I have clearly stated they are not to blame.

greendom · 09-04-2009 10:12pm

marti8 wrote: »

I have never blamed non-nationals for this crisis, never. In fact I have clearly stated they are not to blame.

Then why persecute them ?

Mr.Micro · 09-04-2009 10:14pm

marti8 wrote: »

I have never blamed non-nationals for this crisis, never. In fact I have clearly stated they are not to blame.

Fair enough point taken.

marti8 · 09-04-2009 10:14pm

Heineken Helen wrote: »

Ah so your 19 year old twins are no longer able to help you support your English wife and that's why you're so bitter? It's the only conclusion I can draw that doesn't leave you being a xenophobe

Lmao, funny, funny....no, wrong on all counts. I'm not bitter one bit however I am concerned regarding Irelands future. Unlike you it appears.

marti8 · 09-04-2009 10:21pm

greendom wrote: »

Then why persecute them ?

I am not persecuting non-nationals whatsoever.....I am explaining that in the current economic climate we find ourselves in we have to make changes.

If Irish nationals cannot find jobs because so many of the positions are already occupied by non-nationals then somethings gotta give...........

marti8 · 09-04-2009 10:26pm

mayordenis wrote: »

Marti you attack everyone who has disagreed.
Your view actually is xenophobic, while I don't believe you are some hate-filled person it is definately xenophobic.

Burden on the state? There are so many different burdens on the state and when the law backs them you can't just pick and choose who to drop.

You're not living in reality here.

What I am saying is that the law as it stands is wrong. And it is costing the Irish State a lot of money. And it is unfair to Irish citizens.

greendom · 09-04-2009 10:31pm

marti8 wrote: »

I am not persecuting non-nationals whatsoever.....I am explaining that in the current economic climate we find ourselves in we have to make changes.

If Irish nationals cannot find jobs because so many of the positions are already occupied by non-nationals then somethings gotta give...........

Forcing people to leave the country against their will is persecution imho.

It's no solution either. Picking on an easy target will not make things any easier for the country. Quite possibly a whole lot worse...

mikemac · 09-04-2009 10:35pm

Long thread, just my experience.

I've years experience working in hotels in many different positions.
I've worked in a small hotel when 4 out of 35 staff were Irish.

Now you're going to say that Irish were lazy and wouldn't work in these jobs, maybe beneath them. I saw the CV's coming in, mostly Irish.

But the difference? This was 2004, right in boom times and I wouldn't work for less then 12 euro per hour as that's what my last place paid me and with experience I was worth more then minimum wage imo. Are you worth your wage?
Bar the chefs & management I was the highest paid person there. And then I trained a Slovakian guy for my cover and then I was told I wasn't full time anymore. Why, they found someone happy on minimum wage!

I don't blame the staff, I blame the employer.
It's easy from your safe, secure (is any job secure?) job to claim people who have been undercut are xenophobic. Hey if this was your job you'd react the same

Heineken Helen · 09-04-2009 10:35pm

None of the Irish people wanted those jobs when the eastern europeans got them... so what do you want done with them? Have them sacked and deported? I don't quite understand. Boycott the employers if you have a problem... and tell them WHY you're boycotting them... do you do that?

Welease · 09-04-2009 10:37pm

marti8 wrote: »

What I am saying is that the law as it stands is wrong. And it is costing the Irish State a lot of money. And it is unfair to Irish citizens.

I'd rather continue to pay my taxes to support a lot of the hard working immigrants who have contributed for years, than some of the lazy irish ***tards who sit on their arse and demand handouts for doing sod all.

marti8 · 09-04-2009 10:44pm

greendom wrote: »

Forcing people to leave the country against their will is persecution imho.

It's no solution either. Picking on an easy target will not make things any easier for the country. Quite possibly a whole lot worse...

I am not saying the State should force, literally drag people screaming and kicking onto planes, out of the cuntry, not at all! If non-national need social welfare give it to them, upto the ammount to which they have paid in tax, and then no more. I wish it wasn't so but given our rapidly deterirating situation it makes good sense from a Irish point of view, not from a non-Irish point of view perhaps. But all this is hypothetical as it will most likely never come about, unfortunetly.

But what could, perhaps will, happen is that a growing number of Irish people will start to resent foreigners working here, when Irish people can't get jobs and getting the dole here when the dole is being reduced and being a burden on the Irish State when they are not even citizens......

marti8 · 09-04-2009 10:51pm

Heineken Helen wrote: »

None of the Irish people wanted those jobs when the eastern europeans got them... so what do you want done with them? Have them sacked and deported? I don't quite understand. Boycott the employers if you have a problem... and tell them WHY you're boycotting them... do you do that?

That might be a good idea............boycotting. What do I want, personally? I want an Irish person to be able to get a job in Ireland. But we have so many non-nationals in proportion to our population size that very many of the lower paid jobs are taken by non-nationals.

IT IS NOT THE FAULT OF THE NON-NATIONAL.Only a racist would suggest that. But having said that, is it fair that an Irish person cannot get a job because that job is already taken by a non-national, I say it's not.

mikemac · 09-04-2009 10:55pm

marti8 wrote: »

IT IS NOT THE FAULT OF THE NON-NATIONAL.Only a racist would suggest that. But having said that, is it fair that an Irish person cannot get a job because that job is already taken by a non-national, I say it's not.

Xenophobe, not racist. Do you know the difference?
Sorry, minor bugbear of mine to hear people being "racist" to Eastern Europeans where they are the same race as ourselves. How do you be racist against a white European?

You posted non-national, if you've an irrational problem with nationality that's being a xenophobe nothing about racism.
But you raised a valid point so I'm not saying you're not

marti8 · 09-04-2009 10:58pm

mikemac wrote: »

Xenophobe, not racist. Do you know the difference?
Sorry, minor bugbear of mine to hear people being "racist" to Eastern Europeans where they are the same race as ourselves. How do you be racist against a white European?

You posted non-national, if you've an irrational problem with nationality that's being a xenophobe nothing about racism.
But you raised a valid point so I'm not saying you're not

I am neither a xenophobe nor a racist.

mikemac · 09-04-2009 10:59pm

Good man, you posted it so I responded

Never said you were

Welease · 09-04-2009 11:04pm

marti8 wrote: »

I am not saying the State should force, literally drag people screaming and kicking onto planes, out of the cuntry, not at all! If non-national need social welfare give it to them, upto the ammount to which they have paid in tax, and then no more. I wish it wasn't so but given our rapidly deterirating situation it makes good sense from a Irish point of view, not from a non-Irish point of view perhaps. But all this is hypothetical as it will most likely never come about, unfortunetly.

But what could, perhaps will, happen is that a growing number of Irish people will start to resent foreigners working here, when Irish people can't get jobs and getting the dole here when the dole is being reduced and being a burden on the Irish State when they are not even citizens......

You do realise that if we started banning foreigners from getting dole etc. that other countries would probably do the same to us.. Which in turn would mean Irish folks would not go abroad to seek work as there would be no safety net for them, which in turns means this country would be overloaded with irish trying to get jobs that don't exist.. Be careful what you wish for. There are a lot less foreigners here than Irish abroad.

greendom · 09-04-2009 11:04pm

marti8 wrote: »

I am not saying the State should force, literally drag people screaming and kicking onto planes, out of the cuntry, not at all! If non-national need social welfare give it to them, upto the ammount to which they have paid in tax, and then no more. I wish it wasn't so but given our rapidly deterirating situation it makes good sense from a Irish point of view, not from a non-Irish point of view perhaps. But all this is hypothetical as it will most likely never come about, unfortunetly.

But what could, perhaps will, happen is that a growing number of Irish people will start to resent foreigners working here, when Irish people can't get jobs and getting the dole here when the dole is being reduced and being a burden on the Irish State when they are not even citizens......

OK so you just want them on the breadline, fair enough.

I don't doubt that tough economic times often leads to increased xenophobia and the resentment you speak of, this doesn't mean the state should too, pick on the targets of racists..

And your solution could result in Ireland being forced out or certainly to the periphery of the EU, and could lead to the re-emergence of economic protectionism as each country seeks to protect its own "citizens" and eventually a full blown slump.

Heineken Helen · 09-04-2009 11:08pm

marti8 wrote: »

That might be a good idea............boycotting. What do I want, personally? I want an Irish person to be able to get a job in Ireland. But we have so many non-nationals in proportion to our population size that very many of the lower paid jobs are taken by non-nationals.

IT IS NOT THE FAULT OF THE NON-NATIONAL.Only a racist would suggest that. But having said that, is it fair that an Irish person cannot get a job because that job is already taken by a non-national, I say it's not.

It IS a good idea... and it makes you feel like you're not just bitching but actually doing something about it... so get out there and, when you go into a shop, if you're not happy with the Irish to non Irish ratio of staff, just leave... it's not like there's not enough competition in shops... if it's a specialty shop, you don't need it. I know we like to put Dunnes down but there was a significantly HUGE number of Irish staff in there compared to other shops at all times. And definitely try and let the management know why you're boycotting... either anonymously by letter or in person. If they're getting those letters all the time and losing business they'd have to think twice.

So again... what do you want? These jobs are already legally occupied by those people... so do you have a problem with the eastern europeans on the dole or the eastern europeans working? Or is it just the eastern europeans you have a problem with? Think about how you're sounding.

Heineken Helen · 09-04-2009 11:10pm

marti8 wrote: »

I am not saying the State should force, literally drag people screaming and kicking onto planes, out of the cuntry, not at all! If non-national need social welfare give it to them, upto the ammount to which they have paid in tax, and then no more. I wish it wasn't so but given our rapidly deterirating situation it makes good sense from a Irish point of view, not from a non-Irish point of view perhaps. But all this is hypothetical as it will most likely never come about, unfortunetly.

But what could, perhaps will, happen is that a growing number of Irish people will start to resent foreigners working here, when Irish people can't get jobs and getting the dole here when the dole is being reduced and being a burden on the Irish State when they are not even citizens......

Blame the government... simple as that!

They were simply making the most out of a good situation for them... the way the Irish have done for generations and will continue to do... depending on how we handle this situation.

marti8 · 09-04-2009 11:21pm

Heineken Helen wrote: »

It IS a good idea... and it makes you feel like you're not just bitching but actually doing something about it... so get out there and, when you go into a shop, if you're not happy with the Irish to non Irish ratio of staff, just leave... it's not like there's not enough competition in shops... if it's a specialty shop, you don't need it. I know we like to put Dunnes down but there was a significantly HUGE number of Irish staff in there compared to other shops at all times. And definitely try and let the management know why you're boycotting... either anonymously by letter or in person. If they're getting those letters all the time and losing business they'd have to think twice.

So again... what do you want? These jobs are already legally occupied by those people... so do you have a problem with the eastern europeans on the dole or the eastern europeans working? Or is it just the eastern europeans you have a problem with? Think about how you're sounding.

I have no problems with eastern Euroepans at all. I do have a problem with the status quo, allowing non-nationals to get the dole for an indefinite period, yes I do have a problem with that.

Yes, these jobs are legally occupied, I don't dispute that, what I am saying is that the law as it stands is wrong and WILL cause resentment and if we are not very careful, worse.

marti8 · 09-04-2009 11:24pm

greendom wrote: »

OK so you just want them on the breadline, fair enough.

I don't doubt that tough economic times often leads to increased xenophobia and the resentment you speak of, this doesn't mean the state should too, pick on the targets of racists..

And your solution could result in Ireland being forced out or certainly to the periphery of the EU, and could lead to the re-emergence of economic protectionism as each country seeks to protect its own "citizens" and eventually a full blown slump.

The State, the government, created this problem by allowing non-nationals into Ireand without work permits.

Welease · 09-04-2009 11:25pm

marti8 wrote: »

Yes, these jobs are legally occupied, I don't dispute that, what I am saying is that the law as it stands is wrong and WILL cause resentment and if we are not very careful, worse.

Only from idiots and hypocrites... I never heard them complaining about the amount of Irish abroad working and claiming benefits.. And the law is not wrong, you might disagree with it, but the vast majority of people don't.

marti8 · 09-04-2009 11:31pm

Welease wrote: »

You do realise that if we started banning foreigners from getting dole etc. that other countries would probably do the same to us.. Which in turn would mean Irish folks would not go abroad to seek work as there would be no safety net for them, which in turns means this country would be overloaded with irish trying to get jobs that don't exist.. Be careful what you wish for. There are a lot less foreigners here than Irish abroad.

I would like to see the figures for non-nationals on the dole here in Ireland and how much it is costing the State? I'd also like to see the numbers of Irish nationals on the dole in other EU States (excluding the UK of course, I have explained why before and I'm not going to go all over why again)

I also wonder how many Irish people work in other EU (ex.UK) countries? And then compare that to the number of non-nationals working here in Ireland?

Non-citizens getting the dole? Time to stop it?

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