Non-citizens getting the dole? Time to stop it?

marti8

Welease wrote: »

Only from idiots and hypocrites... I never heard them complaining about the amount of Irish abroad working and claiming benefits.. And the law is not wrong, you might disagree with it, but the vast majority of people don't.

You say the majority of Irish people would believe that non-nationals should after working for 2 years have access to Irish social welfare indefinetly? I doubt that very much. That is my opinion, just as it is your opinion, neither of us can back it up....I guess that would take a referendum........won't happen of course, the government would be too frightened.

I am talking about that which is best for Ireland, not for any other country or their citizens.

Welease

marti8 wrote: »

I would like to see the figures for non-nationals on the dole here in Ireland and how much it is costing the State? I'd also like to see the numbers of Irish nationals on the dole in other EU States (excluding the UK of course, I have explained why before and I'm not going to go all over why again)

I also wonder how many Irish people work in other EU (ex.UK) countries? And then compare that to the number of non-nationals working here in Ireland?

Well according to Brian Lenihan on the radio today, there are 40 million (yes million) Irish abroad. If that figure is true, then no matter what calculation you want to use, there are more Irish employed/unemployed/part-time/self-employed abroad than there are foreigners here. You plan could possible bring far more of them home than we could ever cope with..

marti8

Welease wrote: »

Well according to Brian Lenihan on the radio today, there are 40 million (yes million) Irish abroad. If that figure is true, then no matter what calculation you want to use, there are more Irish employed/unemployed/part-time/self-employed abroad than there are foreigners here. You plan could possible bring far more of them home than we could ever cope with..

Lol, that figure is not correct. There may be 40 million people claiming Irish ancestry, a very different thing.

greendom

Marti - I don't agree with your stance on this issue (obviously) but I certainly admire your stamina - keep it up

aare

Welease wrote: »

Well according to Brian Lenihan on the radio today, there are 40 million (yes million) Irish abroad. If that figure is true, then no matter what calculation you want to use, there are more Irish employed/unemployed/part-time/self-employed abroad than there are foreigners here. You plan could possible bring far more of them home than we could ever cope with..

Or looking at it another way, we could rent off the property the government will foreclose on from the banks to them, at top rates (acute housing shortages do that), and tax them to the hilt...and be on the pig's back in NO TIME.

Welease

marti8 wrote: »

Lol, that figure is not correct. There may be 40 million people claiming Irish ancestry, a very different thing.

You are correct, it is in fact ancestry.. Just found some figures though an estimated 800K living abroad currently, and this has gone down since the celtic tiger.. 420K immigrants live here according to the 2006 census.

marti8

Welease wrote: »

You are correct, it is in fact ancestry.. Just found some figures though an estimated 800K living abroad currently, and this has gone down since the celtic tiger.. 420K immigrants live here according to the 2006 census.

So, out of a population of approx 4.5 million approx. half a milion are non-nationals, approx 10%....wow....... I wonder what % of those on the dole are non-national, unfortunetly I can't find figures for that. And how many of those 420,000 non-nationals are in employment? And now, these days, how many Irish unemployed are there again..........

So, while the official figures may say 420,000 (in 2006), they are 3 years out of date.....yes, the figure could have gone up or down during that time. And it must be remembered not all non-nationals will have registered themselves on the census.

I have found the following figures for Irish citizens living in other EU countries excluding the UK:

• France 16,000
• Germany 16,000
• Belgium 10,000
• Spain 8,000
• Netherlands 4,040
• Italy 2,000
• Sweden 1,200
• Denmark 1,020
• Luxembourg 1,000
• Austria 600
• Greece 600
• Portugal 250
• Finland 144

That study also says 500,000 people who were born in Ireland live in the UK.

marti8

greendom wrote: »

Marti - I don't agree with your stance on this issue (obviously) but I certainly admire your stamina - keep it up

We would like to inform all board members that memberships are now being accepted for the Irish National Socialist Party. There will be strict regulations for membership, naturally. All potential members must be at least 5'10 vor men and 5'8 vor women. You must be abe to stand up straight and have a good singing voice. Blondes are preferred but others will be tolerated. Moustaches vor ze men are optional but encouraged. Moustaches vor ze women are discouraged.

You will travel the country and meet new people, broaden your horizons and get to interact vit ze minorities. A bubbly, outgoing personality is a must. Women are expected to wear skirts at all times when in public and men are expected to provide their own black boots (we will provide you with special INSP Polish........god zammit, I said polish, not Polish!)

Sign up, sign up........;)

aare

I don't agree with your stance either, but I love your sense of humour, and your timing!:D

brenda2

As a nation we didnt care what non nationalists got as long as they were contuributing to this country. But many were not. They earn money and sent it home so not spending here. I live in an area where there is tons of non nationals getting welfare and their rent allowance paid. I find it hard to accept that just because I have a mortgage (whom the gov encouraged me to do) that i will not get the same help as them. Call me racist but i think its racism to our own who find themselves in the position i am in. We do not have the money to support these spongers. TD Vardakar once stated if after 4 months these non nationals are still unemployed pay there fare to send them home. What is wrong with that?

RiverWilde

marti8 wrote: »

Here we go again, someone says anything about non-nationals and they are labelled xenophobic, racist or whatever else....seriously! Listen, my spouse is a non-national, are you still going to say I am xenophobic...don't be stupid. And by the way, I am pro-European not anti-European. That however doesn't by definition mean I support non-nationals getting social benefits in Ireland indefinetly, I don't support that, why shoud I, why would I? It ISN'T good for Ireland...sure it's good for non-nationals and their countries (as their home countries don't have to accept responsibility for them) but it is NOT good for Ireland. We are running out of money fast, the realities have changed.

I wouldn't deny an EU national the right to live, work or claim social welfare just as long as they weren't depriving an Irish person of a job and just as long as they weren't being paid dole above and beyond that which they had contributed in taxes. You seem to forget that this is exactly what the EU already does to 2 EU member States, Bulgaria and Romania.

Sorry mate but what you are saying sounds like xenophobic, racist nonsense.

This little country for good or ill voted into the EEC and continued to vote in favour of subsequent Treates.

Those treaties confer rights and responsibilities on every member state. The rights to work and live and if everything goes haywire, the right to avail of state support. Now that things are going a bit pearshaped we can't just say bugger off home.

Oh, and the fact that you married a non-national, is frankly, irrelevant.

Riv

gcgirl

It was the nicest can of worms there!

marti8

RiverWilde wrote: »

Sorry mate but what you are saying sounds like xenophobic, racist nonsense.

This little country for good or ill voted into the EEC and continued to vote in favour of subsequent Treates.

Those treaties confer rights and responsibilities on every member state. The rights to work and live and if everything goes haywire, the right to avail of state support. Now that things are going a bit pearshaped we can't just say bugger off home.

Oh, and the fact that you married a non-national, is frankly, irrelevant.

Riv

Sorry Mate, but the very same EU you talk about has said that it does not respect the outcome of the Irish referendum on Lisbon. Suggestions have repeatedly been made in Brussels that if we vote NO again we will be left behind and the treaty will come into force in all other member States regardless, now this is illegal and in violation of the rules of the game as set by the EU itself, yet it appears when it suits its own purposes it will do whatever the hell it wants........and you are saying we can't do the same?

And no, I am neither a racist or a xenophobe as I have repeatedly stated one can express an opinion on immigration without being either. It is those who want to stifle debate that will bandy about terms such as racist or xenophobe whenever the issue is raised. It's childish.

And as I have said previously a xenophobe or a racist would not have a non-national spouse, that really wouldn't make much sense.......check the dictionary for the meaning of the words you bandy about.......tut, tut, tut

RiverWilde

marti8 wrote: »

And as I have said previously a xenophobe or a racist would not have a non-national spouse, that really wouldn't make much sense.......check the dictionary for the meaning of the words you bandy about.

Oh Meow!

Nody

mikemac wrote: »

Xenophobe, not racist. Do you know the difference?
Sorry, minor bugbear of mine to hear people being "racist" to Eastern Europeans where they are the same race as ourselves. How do you be racist against a white European?

Are you claiming that Asians or Africans are of a different race?

Hobbes

marti8 wrote: »

There are so few jobs because very many of the jobs are already taken by non-nationals.

There are so few jobs because the jobs are not there.

So what if the job is already taken? Is a company supposed leave the position open for you when you need it?

"Excuse Mr Polish person I'll be taking your job now that you interviewed for and worked the last few years as I've just been laid off so I automatically get your job because I'm Irish". :rolleyes:

You might even have an argument to make if it wasn't for the fact there has already been an exodus of foreign nationals in the last few months simply because they can't get a job here and it is too expensive to live here.

stevelknievel

marti8 wrote: »

I take it you are referring to the 50% dole cut for the under 20's, well, you forget to realise that not all under actually live at home, for any number of reasons, including the fact that this State recognises 18 as being the adult age. We have now cut the dole in half for adults, that is unacceptable as far as I see it.

As for people "screwing" as put it the Irish social welfare system, what exactly do you mean? Do you mean Irish people availing of Irish social welfare by in large paid for by Irish taxpayers? I have no problem with that. I do have a problem with the Irish State paying non-nationals over and above that ammount which they have already paid in taxes, that I do have a very real problem with....especially in these economic times when our government can't even pay Irish people full social welfare. Yes, that I do have a problem with.

I wasn't referring to any group in particular. If you're an 18 year old living away from home, then yes, you should get the full amount. If you are 28 year old living at home with no bills, then you shouldn't. The welfare is basically there to ensure people have enough income to live off of. If you have fewer expenses then you need less income. Simple economics.
As for people screwing the state? I'm talking about people who have been claiming every allowance they can get for the last 10+years, who either

i) didn't, don't and likely never will have any intention of looking for work or
ii) are making plenty of money already through cash in hand nixers.

These people are bleeding the country dry, while contributing nothing to society. And I have major problem with you and me having to supporting these lazy, selfish, sponging, freeloaders . I would love to send them all off on a ship somewhere. And then sink it.
All I'm saying is, regardless of age or nationality, if someone needs money because they've fallen on hard times, they should get it. If someone doesn't need money, or needs it cos they're too lazy to find a job for themselves, they should get nothing.

menoscemo

stevelknievel wrote: »

And I have major problem with you and me having to supporting these lazy, selfish, sponging, freeloaders

I think you missed the part where the OP said he and his non-national wife are claiming welfare (yes it is alright for her since she is married to Him :rolleyes: that's different).
IMO OP wants to cut welfare to non-nationals for fear that there might not be enough to pay him and his wife.

Welease

marti8 wrote: »

So, out of a population of approx 4.5 million approx. half a milion are non-nationals, approx 10%....wow....... I wonder what % of those on the dole are non-national, unfortunetly I can't find figures for that. And how many of those 420,000 non-nationals are in employment? And now, these days, how many Irish unemployed are there again..........

So, while the official figures may say 420,000 (in 2006), they are 3 years out of date.....yes, the figure could have gone up or down during that time. And it must be remembered not all non-nationals will have registered themselves on the census.

I have found the following figures for Irish citizens living in other EU countries excluding the UK:

• France 16,000
• Germany 16,000
• Belgium 10,000
• Spain 8,000
• Netherlands 4,040
• Italy 2,000
• Sweden 1,200
• Denmark 1,020
• Luxembourg 1,000
• Austria 600
• Greece 600
• Portugal 250
• Finland 144

That study also says 500,000 people who were born in Ireland live in the UK.

Yes, I have seen that data.. Why are you excluding the UK? (i know you said you covered this, what post # I am not reading 11 pages of posts to find it ).

So given the data we have there are more Irish abroad "taking" jobs and receiving dole than foreigners here. ~800K vs ~420K

Looking further at what you propose.. I work with many many bright and talented foreigners at the middle/upper skilled section of the workforce. In fact, look at a lot of the multinational corporations who employ vast numbers here. They in general have a good proportion of foreign staff and senior managers. Should we implement laws that discourge them from setting up here, and having a safety net in case they fall on hard times? It's not so long ago that MNC's in Ireland had to pay foreign workers extra benefits to entice them to come to Ireland (and even though I am Irish, I was beneficiary of these schemes to get me to come back to Ireland).
How do you propose to handle the disencentive for these MNC's and other entreprenuers to come to Ireland and setup in business? Don't assume all foreigners are in low paid positions that any can do.. many of them are in highly skilled positions that we don't have the workforce available to fill initially.

Welease

menoscemo wrote: »

I think you missed the part where the OP said he and his non-national wife are claiming welfare (yes it is alright for her since she is married to Him :rolleyes: that's different).
IMO OP wants to cut welfare to non-nationals for fear that there might not be enough to pay him and his wife.

Are you serious? Which post?

If so, then this is just a troll. Obviously too much spare time, might be better spent looking for a job

snubbleste

The Live Register for March 2009 shows that there were 295,658 Irish nationals and 75,613 (20.4%) non-Irish nationals signing-on.
The largest non-Irish nationals number on the Live Register were from the EU Accession states (43,559).
Estimates from the Quarterly National Household Survey for September to
November 2008 show that non-Irish nationals represented an estimated 16%of all persons in the labour force aged between 17 and 65 years.

Out of 371,271 signing-on in March 2009:
• Irish 295,658
• UK 16,299
• Rest of EU15 4,245
• Accession states 43,559
• Other nationality 11,510

scorpioishere

menoscemo wrote: »

These 'Eastern Europeans' have to work 2 years in Ireland before being entitled to social welfare payments. That is a lot more than a lot Irish Citizens claiming the dole. Therefore they are more entitled to it than many Irish citzens. Nationality should have nothing to do with it.



Enough Jobs for Irsh People? There are plenty of minimum wage paying jobs taken up mostly by Non-nationals simply because the dole pays just as much as a 40hour p/w minimum wage job (more after rent and other allowances). So who is going to do these jobs when we send the non nationals home?

Marti8 will do it ...

menoscemo

Welease wrote: »

Are you serious? Which post?

If so, then this is just a troll. Obviously too much spare time, might be better spent looking for a job

From the original post:

marti8 wrote: »

Now, I have to add that I am in reciept of a social welfare payment, am I a burden on the State, yes of course I am but I as an Irish citizen have the right to expect the State to support me if I cannot work or if I cannot find work. And I hasten to add my spouse is a non-national, you might say "kick her out too!" if you try to reverse it and use my own logic but not so, as an Irish citizen I am entitled to marry whom ever I see fit, Irish or not, and have the right to be financially supported. That is the basis of the welfare state. Our welfare system was designed for Irish people and their dependants not half of Europe! (I know it's an exageration)

Post 35

marti8 wrote: »

And no, again you misunderstand what I am saying. I am Irish, my wife is not but is, obviously, the dependant of an Irish citizen (me) I am not talking about Irish citizens or their dependants who I believe do have an entitle ment to a social welfare payment, I am talking about non-nationals who have worked for more than 2 years and who are now unemployed.....and their entitlement to indefinete social welfare. I think this is wrong, this is my opinion.

The first priority of the Irish State should be towards the welfare of Irish people and their dependants. Just as the first priority of the Polish State should be towards its citizens, and the Czech State and so on and so on....

It is either a troll or someone with no logic or else with a grudge against eastern Europeans.

pcardin

marti8 wrote: »

We would like to inform all board members that memberships are now being accepted for the Irish National Socialist Party. There will be strict regulations for membership, naturally. All potential members must be at least 5'10 vor men and 5'8 vor women. You must be abe to stand up straight and have a good singing voice. Blondes are preferred but others will be tolerated. Moustaches vor ze men are optional but encouraged. Moustaches vor ze women are discouraged.

You will travel the country and meet new people, broaden your horizons and get to interact vit ze minorities. A bubbly, outgoing personality is a must. Women are expected to wear skirts at all times when in public and men are expected to provide their own black boots (we will provide you with special INSP Polish........god zammit, I said polish, not Polish!)

Sign up, sign up........;)

Yeah! Some 80 years ago Mr. Adolf also started to do the same sh1t. He didn't had boards.ie he was just visiting pubs to find unstable people and inject them with his madness. He also organised National socalists party the same way you are doing now. He hated jews and you hate eastern europeans with the same no reason.The more I read your crazy posts themore I can see that only difference between him and you that he got the power but you will get some nice room in mental Ill hospital.

aare

menoscemo wrote: »

It is either a troll or someone with no logic or else with a grudge against eastern Europeans.

I feel compelled to suggest that, given the wrong kind of mother in law, ANYONE could be forgiven a relevant grudge.;)

Darkbloom

mikemac wrote: »

Long thread, just my experience.

I've years experience working in hotels in many different positions.
I've worked in a small hotel when 4 out of 35 staff were Irish.

Now you're going to say that Irish were lazy and wouldn't work in these jobs, maybe beneath them. I saw the CV's coming in, mostly Irish.

But the difference? This was 2004, right in boom times and I wouldn't work for less then 12 euro per hour as that's what my last place paid me and with experience I was worth more then minimum wage imo. Are you worth your wage?
Bar the chefs & management I was the highest paid person there. And then I trained a Slovakian guy for my cover and then I was told I wasn't full time anymore. Why, they found someone happy on minimum wage!

I don't blame the staff, I blame the employer.
It's easy from your safe, secure (is any job secure?) job to claim people who have been undercut are xenophobic. Hey if this was your job you'd react the same

This isn't really relevant, I'm afraid. After the minimum wage came in there were plenty of shops in my area that would hire 16 year olds over people a few years older to avoid paying out the full amount. I used to have difficulty getting a job during this time. Kicking immigrants out solves nothing; the young of this country are cheap labour too. Undercutting? No, it's competition.

marti8

Hobbes wrote: »

There are so few jobs because the jobs are not there.

So what if the job is already taken? Is a company supposed leave the position open for you when you need it?

"Excuse Mr Polish person I'll be taking your job now that you interviewed for and worked the last few years as I've just been laid off so I automatically get your job because I'm Irish". :rolleyes:

You might even have an argument to make if it wasn't for the fact there has already been an exodus of foreign nationals in the last few months simply because they can't get a job here and it is too expensive to live here.

What I am saying is that we are in a situation NOW whereby Irish nationals cannot find jobs because very mnay of those jobs ARE already filled by non-nationals. Should Irish people come first, you bet they should when it comes to employment and social services and I have no difficulty with that.

It is a pity that our sorry excuse for a government didn't go down the route of temporary work permits........But the reality is now that a lot of jbs are taken by non-nationals, at the very time when Irish people desperately need jobs....especially the under 20's now. These non-nationals are by in large hard workers no doubt about that but a fact is a fact, Irish people cannot get jobs because they are occupied by foreign workers......is that fair, no. I am not talking about the "exodus" of foreign workers you referred to, I am talking about non-nationals who are already in jobs, jobs that Irish people now need. I am also talking aboutnon-nationals who after working for 2 years can now claim social benefits just as an Irish CITIZEN can, indefinetly. I do not personally beieve that non-nationals should have the same entitlements to social welfare and jobs as an Irish citizen and I make no apologies for saying that.

marti8

stevelknievel wrote: »

I wasn't referring to any group in particular. If you're an 18 year old living away from home, then yes, you should get the full amount. If you are 28 year old living at home with no bills, then you shouldn't. The welfare is basically there to ensure people have enough income to live off of. If you have fewer expenses then you need less income. Simple economics.
As for people screwing the state? I'm talking about people who have been claiming every allowance they can get for the last 10+years, who either

i) didn't, don't and likely never will have any intention of looking for work or
ii) are making plenty of money already through cash in hand nixers.

These people are bleeding the country dry, while contributing nothing to society. And I have major problem with you and me having to supporting these lazy, selfish, sponging, freeloaders . I would love to send them all off on a ship somewhere. And then sink it.
All I'm saying is, regardless of age or nationality, if someone needs money because they've fallen on hard times, they should get it. If someone doesn't need money, or needs it cos they're too lazy to find a job for themselves, they should get nothing.

Well, we disagree. You are seriously suggesting that if a non-national needs money they should just "get it"? Oh yeah, that'd be a great situation, I can imagine how well that would work.......And you said that "you and I" pay tax, actually as I have said before, I don't.....I am in reciept of a social welfare payment, and have no qualms about that and n difficulty in saying I am, why should I? I am an Irish citizen, and yes, I have a non-national dependant.

So, what do you suggest the under 20's do who do not or can not live at home for whatever reason and they cannot get a job or they cannot find a place on a training course (after which they might still not in al probabilituy get a job) and who have just had their social welfare entitlements cut by 50% actually do?

What I am saying is that if a mechanism was in place, temporary work permits for non-nationals for example, many of those under 20's - and not just that group - would, WOULD, have the chance of entering the workplace. As I have said so many times already, Irish citizens should come first. Just as in Poland, for example, Polish citizens shoulds come first.....and the same in every other country (obviously we have a special relationship with the UK)

marti8

menoscemo wrote: »

I think you missed the part where the OP said he and his non-national wife are claiming welfare (yes it is alright for her since she is married to Him :rolleyes: that's different).
IMO OP wants to cut welfare to non-nationals for fear that there might not be enough to pay him and his wife.

Em, no. If you had actually listened to what I have been saying you will see exactly why I believe non-national should not be paid social welfare above and beyond that ammount inwhich they have paid tax. Are my motives selfish, absolutely....selfish for Ireland, not for myself and my spouse per se.

If I was worried about there not being enough money to cover my particualar situation then I wouldn't be railing against the government for cutting the dole for the under 20's by 50%..........Neither myself or my spouse are under 20. I doesn't affect us yet it is clearly an injustice to the under 20's......especially those who do not or cannot live at home.

Heineken Helen

marti8 wrote: »

Well, we disagree. You are seriously suggesting that if a non-national needs money they should just "get it"? Oh yeah, that'd be a great situation, I can imagine how well that would work.......And you said that "you and I" pay tax, actually as I have said before, I don't.....I am in reciept of a social welfare payment, and have no qualms about that and n difficulty in saying I am, why should I? I am an Irish citizen, and yes, I have a non-national dependant.

So, what do you suggest the under 20's do who do not or can not live at home for whatever reason and they cannot get a job or they cannot find a place on a training course (after which they might still not in al probabilituy get a job) and who have just had their social welfare entitlements cut by 50% actually do?

What I am saying is that if a mechanism was in place, temporary work permits for non-nationals for example, many of those under 20's - and not just that group - would, WOULD, have the chance of entering the workplace. As I have said so many times already, Irish citizens should come first. Just as in Poland, for example, Polish citizens shoulds come first.....and the same in every other country (obviously we have a special relationship with the UK)

You keep mentioning the UK? Or not when it suits ya... It's confusing

So by your rationale, you're in a better position than most... since your wife's a non national, why can't she just go out and get a job and support both of you?:) since it's so easy! There... problem solved!