Non-citizens getting the dole? Time to stop it?

Welease

marti8 wrote: »

So, international companies won't invest here because we restrict the social welfare system for non-nationals? Em, no. What type of social welfare system exists for non-nationals in one of the most entreprenurial countries in the world, the US?

you still don't get it do you... /sigh

In order for new business to start with external capital, people have to come from outside and setup business.... ok.. now a lot of starter companies fail (and anyone with a brain will plan for that potential eventuality), so if you are going to move you, your family, sell your house and all your possesions and move to Ireland to work for that company, you will want a safety net.. because if the company only lasts 6 months you wont have enough stamps to pay for jack.. Suddenly your staff are stuck in a country with house/car/family and no means of income, thats not an incentive for them to come here.. If you setup in the UK, which is cheaper and better serviced you have that safety net if it's needed.. why would you come to Ireland in the first place? So yes, companies do look at if they able to attract the right sort of staff to give them a competitive advantage... You may not believe that, but I have 20 years experience working for international companies and it is exactly the they of thing that will factor into the equation.
All of this has to be put in the context of Ireland is an expensive place to setup a company, high wages, high land/building costs etc. It's another reason not to come here.

lol the US? Maybe its the fact they don't get huge payouts for sitting on their asses that makes then entreprenurial? i dunno, maybe something to do with a market of 350m, access to cheap land, world class technology, cheaper wages, great infrastructure, educated workforce, access to other markets..
Ireland? Arse end of nowhere, small market, expensive land and workforce, draconian proposed laws , collapsing economy, 3rd world technical infrastructure, more expensive to ship physical products to mainland europe (than building them there in the first place)..

Just some of the reasons, we have to give an advantage over other countries, do anything less and inward investment stops in it's tracks.
Ireland has to compete with other countries for business..
You can continue to deny this, but it just shows your complete lack of understanding of the wider picture...

marti8

ionix5891 wrote: »

great 15-20%

now how many of the irish "nationals" were on that dole for longer than a year? 2 years? longer?

these people probably worked hard and paid a lot of taxes compared to our own long term spongers who couldn't have been bothered to get a job even in the best of times

You again assume that most of these foreign nationals paid tax at all, WHAT WAS IT YOU SAID "THEY PAID A LOT OF TAXES?"? If they were on minimum wage jobs they did not, FOLKS ON MINIMUM PAID JOBS DID NOT PAY TAX................And most non-nationals in Ireland, in my estimation, work in low paid jobs.

Again, as I see it Irish nationals have the right to social welfare payments, non-nationals should, in my opinion, not have the same rights to indefinate entitlements.

marti8

ionix5891 wrote: »

i am just rather pissed of that my tax money goes to pay racists

you wouldn't survive in a capitalist system like the US young jedi

anyways this thread is turning out to be Your Opinion vs Everyone else's



yes businesses that have to do trade with eu, us and the rest of the world, business that needs people who get the job done and keep open minds, not people who can not think outside the box

as an employer i would hire the person who i think is right for the job, not their race, color, gender, sexual preference

if i had to give preference to an Irish person over "non national" who is more qualified and displayed better attitude in interviews and test then i wont be in business for long

.

No, you are just pissed because ANY of YOUR money has to go to ANYONE else............I bet if you had it your way we wouldn't even have a welfare system.....as I said ignorant.

Welease

marti8 wrote: »

You are making wild assumptions that because you had the good fortune to start your own business that everyone else can, that is cloud cookooland stuff......

It probably costs about 50 quid to start a company.. If that is beyond you, got help us...

ionix5891

marti8 wrote: »

No, you are just pissed because ANY of YOUR money has to go to ANYONE else............I bet if you had it your way we wouldn't even have a welfare system.....as I said ignorant.

i am quite happy paying taxes as i realize how the economy works (tho people like you make me sick)

as i mentioned in other thread im in favor of the welfare system, it helps people in need if they get hit by a job loss and keeps crime down and makes it easier for people to concentrate on things such as education

i am not in favor of long term dole spongers, i would love to see a system like the US where after each year your welfare payments are halved, this way theres and incentive to find work, i was shocked to recently find that people get xmas bonuses on the dole!

and after reading this thread im after finding out that there are people sitting on the dole and instead of keeping their mouth shut and looking for work they are instead venting racist crap on the internet

.

marti8

Welease wrote: »

you still don't get it do you... /sigh

In order for new business to start with external capital, people have to come from outside and setup business.... ok.. now a lot of starter companies fail (and anyone with a brain will plan for that potential eventuality), so if you are going to move you, your family, sell your house and all your possesions and move to Ireland to work for that company, you will want a safety net.. because if the company only lasts 6 months you wont have enough stamps to pay for jack.. Suddenly your staff are stuck in a country with house/car/family and no means of income, thats not an incentive for them to come here.. If you setup in the UK, which is cheaper and better serviced you have that safety net if it's needed.. why would you come to Ireland in the first place? So yes, companies do look at if they able to attract the right sort of staff to give them a competitive advantage... You may not believe that, but I have 20 years experience working for international companies and it is exactly the they of thing that will factor into the equation.
All of this has to be put in the context of Ireland is an expensive place to setup a company, high wages, high land/building costs etc. It's another reason not to come here.

lol the US? Maybe its the fact they don't get huge payouts for sitting on their asses that makes then entreprenurial? i dunno, maybe something to do with a market of 350m, access to cheap land, world class technology, cheaper wages, great infrastructure, educated workforce, access to other markets..
Ireland? Arse end of nowhere, small market, expensive land and workforce, draconian proposed laws , collapsing economy, 3rd world technical infrastructure, more expensive to ship physical products to mainland europe (than building them there in the first place)..

Just some of the reasons, we have to give an advantage over other countries, do anything less and inward investment stops in it's tracks.
Ireland has to compete with other countries for business..
You can continue to deny this, but it just shows your complete lack of understanding of the wider picture...

Huh, so that's why so many folks flock to the US to work in Silicon Valley or wherever because according to your reasoning there is a safety net for them? Really?

So, I'm lets say, oh, Russian.....I get a job offer in Silicon Valley, I think to myself, "hmmmm, better not take it just incase it doesn't work out, I mean if I move there and the company goes belly up hell, I won't have a safety net"......Em, no, you are mistaken.

And what I am saying is that non-nationals who have paid tax should, SHOULD, be able to get that tax back by way of social welfare should they ever need it. That is providing a short term safety net for the foreign highly skilled worker.

Welease

marti8 wrote: »

Huh, so that's why so many folks flock to the US to work in Silicon Valley or wherever because according to your reasoning there is a safety net for them? Really?

So, I'm lets say, oh, Russian.....I get a job offer in Silicon Valley, I think to myself, "hmmmm, better not take it just incase it doesn't work out, I mean if I move there and the company goes belly up hell, I won't have a safety net"......Em, no, you are mistaken.

God, when you are going to refute an arguement.. try reading the whole arguement...

Ireland has pretty much nothing going for it to entince foreign investment in compared to other countries atm.. when you understand that.. then move onto the next bit, about adding new draconian laws makes it even less enticing.. see how that works?

The US has a long list of reasons why companies would want to go there which minimise the need to have that social welfare safety net.. now read this slowly... WE DON'T...

Got it now?

marti8

ionix5891 wrote: »

i am quite happy paying taxes as i realize how the economy works (tho people like you make me sick)

as i mentioned in other thread im in favor of the welfare system, it helps people in need if they get hit by a job loss and keeps crime down and makes it easier for people to concentrate on things such as education

i am not in favor of long term dole spongers, i would love to see a system like the US where after each year your welfare payments are halved, this way theres and incentive to find work, i was shocked to recently find that people get xmas bonuses on the dole!

and after reading this thread im after finding out that there are people sitting on the dole and instead of keeping their mouth shut and looking for work they are instead venting racist crap on the internet

.

As I said quite an ignorant individual (you call me "racist"....I'll call you "ignorant"....) It is not racist to suggest that non-nationals should only recieve in social welfare that ammount which they have paid in tax.........

Of course you would love to see a system similaar to the US but then we all see the huge gaps in wealth between the haves and have nots in the States. We all see that in the States the government because of the system it follows can't even provide healthcare for its own citizens.....and as I said you want to replicate that here, well, you are in the minority on that one.....you must have been oh so sad when the PD's went bust......

ejmaztec

I'd like to have my contributions ear-marked solely for the use of an unspecified unemployed Lithuanian. I'll check out the feasibility with the relevant department. Let's take this further and all sponsor nice people, like those African charities get you to do.

If this scheme pans out, only the begrudgers will be left with diddly squat.

ejmaztec

marti8 wrote: »

As I said quite an ignorant individual (you call me "racist"....I'll call you "ignorant"....) It is not racist to suggest that non-nationals should only recieve in social welfare that ammount which they have paid in tax.........

Of course you would love to see a system similaar to the US but then we all see the huge gaps in wealth between the haves and have nots in the States. We all see that in the States the government because of the system it follows can't even provide healthcare for its own citizens.....and as I said you want to replicate that here, well, you are in the minority on that one.....you must have been oh so sad when the PD's went bust......

a bit like Ireland, in fact.

Welease

marti8 wrote: »

And what I am saying is that non-nationals who have paid tax should, SHOULD, be able to get that tax back by way of social welfare should they ever need it. That is providing a short term safety net for the foreign highly skilled worker.

Yes, and as I have already explained startups (as in new job creation that we desperately need) have a big chance of failure in the first year or so.. so basically they won't have enough stamps for any dole under your plan if they fail, so why come here when it's cheaper/better to setup somewhere else?

You still don't get it do you?
If you have a worse location, cost more and have worse infrastructure than your direct competitor countries then adding more laws to drive business away doesnt make sense....

ionix5891

marti8 wrote: »

As I said quite an ignorant individual (you call me "racist"....I'll call you "ignorant"....) It is not racist to suggest that non-nationals should only recieve in social welfare that ammount which they have paid in tax.........

Of course you would love to see a system similaar to the US but then we all see the huge gaps in wealth between the haves and have nots in the States. We all see that in the States the government because of the system it follows can't even provide healthcare for its own citizens.....and as I said you want to replicate that here, well, you are in the minority on that one.....you must have been oh so sad when the PD's went bust......

why narrow down on the long term unemployed "non nationals" why not concentrate on our own long term spongers first? the figure you listed earlier show a 80/20 % split

i dont see why i should be paying for anyone to be on the dole forever and ever, no matter what their race is

tell me this, because someone is Irish does that make them superior?

Welease

ionix5891 wrote: »

tell me this, because someone is Irish does that make them superior?

Yes /shamrock

marti8

Welease wrote: »

God, when you are going to refute an arguement.. try reading the whole arguement...

Ireland has pretty much nothing going for it to entince foreign investment in compared to other countries atm.. when you understand that.. then move onto the next bit, about adding new draconian laws makes it even less enticing.. see how that works?

The US has a long list of reasons why companies would want to go there which minimise the need to have that social welfare safety net.. now read this slowly... WE DON'T...

Got it now?

You seem to be very misinformed I have to say. The deciding factor, in fact if it even registers on the scale it is tiny, for foreign companies starting up in Ireland is not whether their employees will ever get social welfare should they lay them off..........

Ireland has several advantages some other EU States don't: English Speaking country, Low Corporate Tax, Highly Educated and Skilled workforce, IDA inticements and so on and so on.....Yes, we have shortcomings of course but that is not what this thread is about.

marti8

ionix5891 wrote: »

why narrow down on the long term unemployed "non nationals" why not concentrate on our own long term spongers first? the figure you listed earlier show a 80/20 % split

i dont see why i should be paying for anyone to be on the dole forever and ever, no matter what their race is

tell me this, because someone is Irish does that make them superior?

Ok, as I see it, and many others, the first responsibility of ANY State is to its own citizens. The first responsibility of Ireland is to Irish citizens, the first responsibility of France is to French citizens and so on and so on........

So, should an Irish citizen have a higher (use the word "superior" if you like....I'm sure you use that word all the time when you look at the unwashed masses around you :rolleyes:) .....a higher right to access social services and jobs than a non-national, absolutely and without eqivocation, YES.

faoile@n

What exactly is your problem? Non-nationals claiming the dole is the least of our worries in Ireland today. Are you pissed because you feel you should be getting more money instead of giving people who actually paid tax the dole when they've lost their job?

Your views are short sighted and narrow minded. Without the support of Europe "in the current climate" like you keep saying we would be in far more trouble. Treating fellow EU citizens with contempt(which is what your proposing) will not help Ireland. It will however keep closet racists like you happy :rolleyes:

We have got billions from Europe which enabled us to develop and transform into a modern society in which we exist. Its ironic that without recieving money from Europe we would be still living in the dark ages(google Ireland in the 70's), no multinational would invest here, we would still be emigrating en masse working minimum wages around the world and whatever social welfare payment you currently get would probably not exist

ionix5891

marti8 wrote: »

Ok, as I see it, and many others, the first responsibility of ANY State is to its own citizens. The first responsibility of Ireland is to Irish citizens, the first responsibility of France is to French citizens and so on and so on........

So, should an Irish citizen have a higher (use the word "superior" if you like....I'm sure you use that word all the time when you look at the unwashed masses around you :rolleyes:) .....a higher right to access social services and jobs than a non-national, absolutely and without eqivocation, YES.

and should this "superior" / "washed" Irish person be entitled to be milking the system forever and ever?

Welease

marti8 wrote: »

You seem to be very misinformed I have to say. The deciding factor, in fact if it even registers on the scale it is tiny, for foreign companies starting up in Ireland is not whether there employees will ever get social welfare should they lay them off..........

Ireland has several advantages some other EU States don't: English Speaking country, Low Corporate Tax, Highly Educated and Skilled workforce, IDA inticements and so on and so on.....Yes, we have shortcomings of course but that is not what this thread is about.

Damn I have been found out, my whole arguement has been that it was the deciding factor, i just neglected to mention that in any post i made (without pointing out the obvious that it cant actually be a consideration if it doesnt actual exist at the moment)..

I am of course completely misinformed, only having worked in international business for 20 years, and worked with friends who have setup business's all over Europe and the US..
You on the other hand, have vast experience of how international business works, and therefore quite rightly should demand we stop paying social welfare to non nationals, while being educated and getting dole while in a foreign country.
I will of course tender my resignation to my boss tomorrow, claim dole, demand foreigners leave the country and bemoan the loss of my xmas bonus.. :pac:

I really really hope you course doesn't revolve around logic and basic comprehension, otherwise I feel my tax might be wasted

ionix5891

faoile@n wrote: »

What exactly is your problem?

jealousy, close mindedness, xenophobia, unfamiliarity with life/business/economics/globalisation

take a pick

Ireland as a country chose to be as interconnected as possible to the global system this has allowed this country to grow faster than the rest when the times where good but also fall harder in recent tough times (tho we are still relatively among the richest countries per capita)

Treating workers from EU or even other countries as second class citizens, rejecting any further EU integration, putting in trade barriers will send us back to the bog we crawled out of eating spuds and being the poorman of europe yet again

.

Welease

marti8 wrote: »

Ok, as I see it, and many others, the first responsibility of ANY State is to its own citizens. The first responsibility of Ireland is to Irish citizens, the first responsibility of France is to French citizens and so on and so on........

YES... and read this slowly...

By creating inward investment, and not pissing of the organisation (EU) that has been propping up this banana republic since the 70's...

marti8

faoile@n wrote: »

What exactly is your problem? Non-nationals claiming the dole is the least of our worries in Ireland today. Are you pissed because you feel you should be getting more money instead of giving people who actually paid tax the dole when they've lost their job?

Your views are short sighted and narrow minded. Without the support of Europe "in the current climate" like you keep saying we would be in far more trouble. Treating fellow EU citizens with contempt(which is what your proposing) will not help Ireland. It will however keep closet racists like you happy :rolleyes:

We have got billions from Europe which enabled us to develop and transform into a modern society in which we exist. Its ironic that without recieving money from Europe we would be still living in the dark ages(google Ireland in the 70's), no multinational would invest here, we would still be emigrating en masse working minimum wages around the world and whatever social welfare payment you currently get would probably not exist

You seem to have forgotten the part whereby those on the minimum wage didn't pay tax...so what are you actually talking about when you say they should get the dole because they have paid tax?.....Do you mean those non-nationals who have paid tax?......

I am all for giving non-nationals who have paid tax that tax back by way of social welfare benefits.

Yes, the EU gave us money WHEN IT HAD MONEYTO GIVE.......Ireland is giving non-nationals money WHEN IT DOES NOT HAVE MONEY TO GIVE. Do you understand the difference I wonder? And you are forgetting that we, Ireland, also gave our waters over to the EU......wonder how much that was and is worth?

And no, I am not racist. But maybe that is one of the only "...ist" words you know.

stevelknievel

marti8 wrote: »

Well, we disagree. You are seriously suggesting that if a non-national needs money they should just "get it"? Oh yeah, that'd be a great situation, I can imagine how well that would work.......And you said that "you and I" pay tax, actually as I have said before, I don't.....I am in reciept of a social welfare payment, and have no qualms about that and n difficulty in saying I am, why should I? I am an Irish citizen, and yes, I have a non-national dependant.

So, what do you suggest the under 20's do who do not or can not live at home for whatever reason and they cannot get a job or they cannot find a place on a training course (after which they might still not in al probabilituy get a job) and who have just had their social welfare entitlements cut by 50% actually do?

I'm seriously suggesting that if anyone needs and deserves money they should get it. Are you seriously suggesting you would rather pay some lazy Irish pr!ck (who has been a drain on our nation for many years all because he couldn't be arsed getting a job), than a hard-working, educated, industrious foreigner that was made redundant? As for the under 20's I never said I agreed with that change. I'm actually completely against it. Just because most of them don't need it, doesn't mean they have stop it on everyone. Which is why it should means tested. Which is also why I said "If you're an 18 year old living away from home, then yes, you should get the full amount."

niceguyjoe wrote: »

this subjct cvould go on and on forever im really biting my tounge on here now


very gray area
but i will say this.

letting people come to any country with no work when they get off the boat .. thats plain stupid

not to mention getting paid for it.. via welfare

That is stupid. It's almost like thousands of Irish people sailing to America with no jobs or housing. What a crazy world that would be. Wait a minute...:rolleyes:

marti8 wrote: »

As I said quite an ignorant individual (you call me "racist"....I'll call you "ignorant"....) It is not racist to suggest that non-nationals should only recieve in social welfare that ammount which they have paid in tax.........

No it's not. But it is racist to treat someone differently because of where they come from, no matter how you try to justify it. The KKK thought they were fighting the good fight too... (Just to clarify I'm not lumping you in with them. I'm just making a point

marti8

Welease wrote: »

YES... and read this slowly...

By creating inward investment, and not pissing of the organisation (EU) that has been propping up this banana republic since the 70's...

The EU doesn't respect Ireland. This has become apparent from their attitude to our rejection of Lisbon. The EU doesn't respect the will of the Irish people.....but you suggest we behave like good little schoolkids and do exactly what it is they say we should.....

ionix5891

marti8 wrote: »

The EU doesn't respect Ireland. This has become apparent from their attitude to our rejection of Lisbon. The EU doesn't respect the will of the Irish people.....but you suggest we behave like good little schoolkids and do exactly what it is they say we should.....

answer this young man

where will the 20-30 billion to cover the hole in our finances this year come from?

Ah yes this organization called the EU

i wish they respected my bank account as much as they "respect" Ireland

oh and who is "they"?

ejmaztec

marti8 wrote: »

The EU doesn't respect Ireland. This has become apparent from their attitude to our rejection of Lisbon. The EU doesn't respect the will of the Irish people.....but you suggest we behave like good little schoolkids and do exactly what it is they say we should.....

I'm glad that they don't respect the will of anyone trying to thwart the rights of its citizens.

Dr Galen

ionix5891 wrote: »

jealousy, close mindedness, xenophobia, unfamiliarity with life/business/economics/globalisation

take a pick

Ireland as a country chose to be as interconnected as possible to the global system this has allowed this country to grow faster than the rest when the times where good but also fall harder in recent tough times (tho we are still relatively among the richest countries per capita)

Treating workers from EU or even other countries as second class citizens, rejecting any further EU integration, putting in trade barriers will send us back to the bog we crawled out of eating spuds and being the poorman of europe yet again

.

your being a bit hard on the OP to be honest. Both of you are soap-boxing big time and your not actually doing much to convince anyone of the validity of your "arguments". Calling each other racists and ignorant is hardly very clever now is it kids?

OP, your falling for the populist tabloid line, as in fairness, many people are. Your definition of Irish people and foreigners seems narrow. Your assumption that the majority of non-Irish workers are earning minimum wage and therefore not paying tax is somewhat simple. The largest grouping of non-nationals in this country actually are emigrants from the UK. Would be interesting to see the average earnings of the largest group within that population. Even if you solely look at those who came from the Eastern European states, many of those people where working in construction, and were doing pretty well for themselves, between basic rates of pay and add on overtime etc. Again, all paying tax.

Ionix i'd agree with you that any protectionist measures, no matter what form they take, would be severely detrimental in both the medium and long term. What might seem like a great idea now, would come back to haunt us once things start to pick up around the world again and companies look to invest overseas

marti8

stevelknievel wrote: »

I'm seriously suggesting that if anyone needs and deserves money they should get it. Are you seriously suggesting you would rather pay some lazy Irish pr!ck (who has been a drain on our nation for many years all because he couldn't be arsed getting a job), than a hard-working, educated, industrious foreigner that was made redundant? As for the under 20's I never said I agreed with that change. I'm actually completely against it. Just because most of them don't need it, doesn't mean they have stop it on everyone. Which is why it should means tested. Which is also why I said "If you're an 18 year old living away from home, then yes, you should get the full amount."



That is stupid. It's almost like thousands of Irish people sailing to America with no jobs or housing. What a crazy world that would be. Wait a minute...:rolleyes:



No it's not. But it is racist to treat someone differently because of where they come from, no matter how you try to justify it. The KKK thought they were fighting the good fight too... (Just to clarify I'm not lumping you in with them. I'm just making a point

I am saying Irish people should come first when it comes to social welfare and jobs. Just as I believe in Poland Poles should come first, in France French should come first etc etc.....

Comparing 2009 to 1849 is a bit out of touch.........

Let the KKK or any other racist group think whatever they want to, I don't agree with them in the remotest. And no it is not racist to treat someone differently based upon where they come from.....if I go to France can I vote for the President of France....no, why, because I am not French...are you suggesting that is racist?

marti8

ejmaztec wrote: »

I'm glad that they don't respect the will of anyone trying to thwart the rights of its citizens.

Huh?

Non-nationals aren't citizens, you do know that much don't you?

ejmaztec

marti8 wrote: »

I am saying Irish people should come first when it comes to social welfare and jobs. Just as I believe in Poland Poles should come first, in France French should come first etc etc.....

Comparing 2009 to 1849 is a bit out of touch.........

Let the KKK or any other racist group think whatever they want to, I don't agree with them in the remotest. And no it is not racist to treat someone differently based upon where they come from.....if I go to France can I vote for the President of France....no, why, because I am not French...are you suggesting that is racist?

You're repeating yourself now - and according to the UN charter it is racist to treat someone differently based on where they come from.

ejmaztec

marti8 wrote: »

Huh?

It was a simple enough comment based on the post to which it referred.

marti8

ejmaztec wrote: »

You're repeating yourself now - and according to the UN charter it is racist to treat someone differently based on where they come from.

Well, every single country in the world has rules and regulations treating foreigners differently from non-nationals, Ireland included.

marti8

ejmaztec wrote: »

It was a simple enough comment based on the post to which it referred.

Huh?

ejmaztec

marti8 wrote: »

Well, every single country in the world has rules and regulations treating foreigners differently from non-nationals, Ireland included.

So, we're allowed to be racist? Better get those burning crosses ready.

marti8 wrote: »

Huh?

Obviously not simple enough.

marti8

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

your being a bit hard on the OP to be honest. Both of you are soap-boxing big time and your not actually doing much to convince anyone of the validity of your "arguments". Calling each other racists and ignorant is hardly very clever now is it kids?

OP, your falling for the populist tabloid line, as in fairness, many people are. Your definition of Irish people and foreigners seems narrow. Your assumption that the majority of non-Irish workers are earning minimum wage and therefore not paying tax is somewhat simple. The largest grouping of non-nationals in this country actually are emigrants from the UK. Would be interesting to see the average earnings of the largest group within that population. Even if you solely look at those who came from the Eastern European states, many of those people where working in construction, and were doing pretty well for themselves, between basic rates of pay and add on overtime etc. Again, all paying tax.

Ionix i'd agree with you that any protectionist measures, no matter what form they take, would be severely detrimental in both the medium and long term. What might seem like a great idea now, would come back to haunt us once things start to pick up around the world again and companies look to invest overseas

Yes, you're right he is being hard on me, and it's not fair....I don't wanna play no more now...:( He's not a nice man. He's a big bad baddy..... :P

Seriously though, I am right and he is wrong why can't he just accept that?:rolleyes:

Anyway, I am not including UK nationals as "non-nationals" for reasons I have outlined time and again. And no, I haven't fallen for the so-called populist line. This is something I believe in as an individual. I am not a Daily Mail reader, in fact I read The Guardian...lol And I am not rightwing, in fact I consider myself leftwing.

Welease

marti8 wrote: »

WHEN IT DOES NOT HAVE MONEY TO GIVE.

There is plenty of money around, its just spent in the wrong places..
Public Sector overstaffing and pension. wastage, government extravagances, social welfare extravagances like the fact you can draw dole while going to college..

I did my degree in Livepool Poly (88-92) during the last recession, and the government didn't hand out jack to people like me.. We had to get off our arses and earn the money to live while we got our education (fees were paid by those damn foreigners in the EU who take our jobs and milk our economy, and probably shag our women also)..

If you want to save Ireland money, how about you and your ENGLISH wife stop living off handouts from this country and pay your own way in life like I and thousands of others had to before the govenment started handing out cash like it was going out of fashion?

If they starting saving money like the old days, you would be the first to whine when it hit you right in the ass... and you actually (gasp) had to pay your own way..

(btw. my wife is english and my first daughter was born in Swindon, so don't accuse me of anything but contempt for your self righteous sponging)

Dr Galen

there was a swipe at you in that post too matey

seriously though, realistically, preventing non - nationals from claiming welfare payments will only have a very limited effect on government finances. root and branch reform of the whole system of government is whats needed, we are pretty screwed, a few million here and a few million there won't make a jot of difference. We're in need of major cuts and efficiencies, in the region of billions!

stevelknievel

marti8 wrote: »

I am saying Irish people should come first when it comes to social welfare and jobs. Just as I believe in Poland Poles should come first, in France French should come first etc etc.....

Comparing 2009 to 1849 is a bit out of touch.........

Let the KKK or any other racist group think whatever they want to, I don't agree with them in the remotest. And no it is not racist to treat someone differently based upon where they come from.....if I go to France can I vote for the President of France....no, why, because I am not French...are you suggesting that is racist?

One straight question for you. Do you think Irish people who have not worked and have sponged off the Government for many many years (and plan to do so for many years to come) deserve benefits more than someone who has had a bit of misfortune. Yes or no answer please, not the French first in France one.
Bit out of touch maybe, but it's a similar situation. I dont have to go back that far though. Is 2009 and the 1980's more in touch for you?
People cant vote for presidents of other countries, because they have no vested interest, therefore not taking the decision seriously, therefore making a joke of the entire diplomatic procedure and damging pretty much every diplomatic country in the world. It's a pretty weak example to come up with, in fairness. Can you please explan how it is not racist to treat someone differently based on where they come from.

ebmma

Hope somebody mentioned that it is very hard to claim the dole "indefinitely"

Scofflaw

Standard warning - keep it polite, please, or I'll close the thread.

moderately,
Scofflaw

marti8

Welease wrote: »

There is plenty of money around, its just spent in the wrong places..
Public Sector overstaffing and pension. wastage, government extravagances, social welfare extravagances like the fact you can draw dole while going to college..

I did my degree in Livepool Poly (88-92) during the last recession, and the government didn't hand out jack to people like me.. We had to get off our arses and earn the money to live while we got our education (fees were paid by those damn foreigners in the EU who take our jobs and milk our economy, and probably shag our women also)..

If you want to save Ireland money, how about you and your ENGLISH wife stop living off handouts from this country and pay your own way in life like I and thousands of others had to before the govenment started handing out cash like it was going out of fashion?

If they starting saving money like the old days, you would be the first to whine when it hit you right in the ass... and you actually (gasp) had to pay your own way..

(btw. my wife is english and my first daughter was born in Swindon, so don't accuse me of anything but contempt for your self righteous sponging)

Are you finished with your rant? Ok, you really need to cut down on your caffeine intake, pal. As an Irish national with a non-national dependant spouse (who no, isn't British.....you seem to have ENGLISH on the brain....) I am perfectly entitled to claim social welfare, these are the rules, this is the law and this is how I believe it should be, why? Because I am Irish, I am an Irish citizen. However, I believe non-nationals (ex.UK) should only be entitled to social welfare upto the ammount they contributed in taxes, why? Because they are not citizens.

I also believe that many Irish nationals cannot now get jobs because many of those jobs are now taken by non-nationals. This IS NOT fair, perhaps you think it is....and that's fine, have your opinion but you won't convnce me otherwise nor will you convince a growing number of Irish people.

Welease

marti8 wrote: »

I am saying Irish people should come first when it comes to social welfare and jobs. Just as I believe in Poland Poles should come first, in France French should come first etc etc.....

Comparing 2009 to 1849 is a bit out of touch.........

Let the KKK or any other racist group think whatever they want to, I don't agree with them in the remotest. And no it is not racist to treat someone differently based upon where they come from.....if I go to France can I vote for the President of France....no, why, because I am not French...are you suggesting that is racist?

I don't think the OP is racist.. It may sound like he is, but I (for what it's worth) don't think he is..

I just think he has misguided views on how to solve the countries problem.
He believes you can help by cutting payments to non Irish.. which sounds racist but in reality it's not any more rascist than creating opportunities in Ireland for inward investment to draw jobs away from foreign countries. It's just a different way of approaching the problem.

I believe he is misguided becuase imo his plan makes Ireland less attractive.. His plan is blunt and direct, but that doesn't make him a racist..

Just my 2c

Welease

marti8 wrote: »

Are you finished with your rant? Ok, you really need to cut down on your caffeine intake, pal. As an Irish national with a non-national dependant spouse (who no, isn't British.....you seem to have ENGLISH on the brain....) I am perfectly entitled to claim social welfare, these are the rules, this is the law and this is how I believe it should be, why? Because I am Irish, I am an Irish citizen. However, I believe non-nationals (ex.UK) should only be entitled to social welfare upto the ammount they contributed in taxes, why? Because they are not citizens.

I also believe that many Irish nationals cannot now get jobs because many of those jobs are now taken by non-nationals. This IS NOT fair, perhaps you think it is....and that's fine, have your opinion but you won't convnce me otherwise nor will you convince a growing number of Irish people.

Lol its not a rant, no more than your continued posting here for the last couple of days... :;)

Yes, you are prefectly entitled to claim benefit.. under the current laws.. as are non nationals

You want to discuss a change in the law.. which is what we are doing..

You want to cut benefits to non nationals to save cash.. great
I offer that we cut benefits to a lot more than that.. and save even more cash?

Why don't you agree? If we want to balance the books why not go back to the 80's/90's where we didnt fund extravagances like dole for peope living at home under 20's.. dole for students etc?

That would cut a lot more....

marti8

stevelknievel wrote: »

One straight question for you. Do you think Irish people who have not worked and have sponged off the Government for many many years (and plan to do so for many years to come) deserve benefits more than someone who has had a bit of misfortune. Yes or no answer please, not the French first in France one.
Bit out of touch maybe, but it's a similar situation. I dont have to go back that far though. Is 2009 and the 1980's more in touch for you?
People cant vote for presidents of other countries, because they have no vested interest, therefore not taking the decision seriously, therefore making a joke of the entire diplomatic procedure and damging pretty much every diplomatic country in the world. It's a pretty weak example to come up with, in fairness. Can you please explan how it is not racist to treat someone differently based on where they come from.

Em, are you referring to Irish emmigration in the 80's to the US, Australia and so on....all places which we needed visas to go? EU nationals in Ireland, the majority of whom come from east European states do not require visas or work permits to come to Ireland....big difference.

Already in Ireland non-nationals have to have been working 2 years to get social welfare....but Irish citizens do not. I guess you'd consider this "racist"?

And to answer your first question, YES, I believe that Irish nationals have more of an entitlement to social welfare than non-nationals, by sole virtue of nationality. Simple as that. However, I have never said non-nationals are not entitled to social welfare full stop.

Dr Galen

marti8 wrote: »

I also believe that many Irish nationals cannot now get jobs because many of those jobs are now taken by non-nationals. This IS NOT fair, perhaps you think it is....and that's fine, have your opinion but you won't convince me otherwise nor will you convince a growing number of Irish people.

this is pure madness. If we go down that road, then we really will be ****ed when things recover. Countries that in the past have used such measures have suffered long term. People have to remember that this is a temporary situation, just as the boom was. Things will sort out over time and while we'll not have the crazy growth of the last while, people will in the main be alright. It's no time for knee jerk reactions.

Sure even if we enacted a policy of forcing companies to employ Irish, we'd be no better off in real terms, as regardless of nationality, the worker is paying tax.

Welease

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

this is pure madness. If we go down that road, then we really will be ****ed when things recover. Countries that in the past have used such measures have suffered long term. People have to remember that this is a temporary situation, just as the boom was. Things will sort out over time and while we'll not have the crazy growth of the last while, people will in the main be alright. It's no time for knee jerk reactions.

Sure even if we enacted a policy of forcing companies to employ Irish, we'd be no better off in real terms, as regardless of nationality, the worker is paying tax.

If you dont want non nationals here for extended periods claiming dole, then make our dole less attractive then other countries..
We don't get blacklisted for draconian laws then..

But as a beneficiary of our extravagant social welfare system as the OP is.. i somehow don't think he would like that solution

marti8

Welease wrote: »

I don't think the OP is racist.. It may sound like he is, but I (for what it's worth) don't think he is..

I just think he has misguided views on how to solve the countries problem.
He believes you can help by cutting payments to non Irish.. which sounds racist but in reality it's not any more rascist than creating opportunities in Ireland for inward investment to draw jobs away from foreign countries. It's just a different way of approaching the problem.

I believe he is misguided becuase imo his plan makes Ireland less attractive.. His plan is blunt and direct, but that doesn't make him a racist..

Just my 2c

Yes, you are right I am not racist in the slightest. And I know that saving several hundred million (I haven't done the figures but if there are over 47,000 non-nationals on the dole.....) by not allowing non-nationals the same access to the social welfare system will not solve the countrys problems of course not, but it's a start! We also need to address the fact that Irish people cannot now get jobs because those jobs are already occupied by non-nationals......

Dr Galen

If you dont want non nationals here for extended periods claiming dole, then make our dole less attractive then other countries..
We don't get blacklisted for draconian laws then..

But as a beneficiary of our extravagant social welfare system as the OP is.. i somehow don't think he would like that solution

i have an issue with anyone, regardless of nationality claiming the dole long term. For some people it will be unavoidable, but for many it has become a way of life and has been discussed here many times.

There is and should be a distinct difference between long term unemployment benefit, say for those who cannot work, and a jobseekers allowance. If someone is totally unable to work, then of course the benefit should be enough to support themselves. If it's the job seekers allowance then, that should be seen and used as a stopgap measure until alternative employment is found.

Dr Galen

marti8 wrote: »

We also need to address the fact that Irish people cannot now get jobs because those jobs are already occupied by non-nationals......

why do we need to address this?

marti8

Welease wrote: »

If you dont want non nationals here for extended periods claiming dole, then make our dole less attractive then other countries..
We don't get blacklisted for draconian laws then..

But as a beneficiary of our extravagant social welfare system as the OP is.. i somehow don't think he would like that solution

Why should Irish citizens suffer huge reductions in dole payments while at the same time non-nationals live a more comfortable life on the dole than if they were even working in their home countries? The Irish social welfare system worked quite well for quite a long time until , until, there was an influx (and yes, hundreds of thousand IS an influx) of foreign nationals.

The Irish social welfare in my opinion should be primarily designed to aid Irish nationals not foreign nationals.

Welease

marti8 wrote: »

Yes, you are right I am not racist in the slightest. And I know that saving several hundred million (I haven't done the figures but if there are over 47,000 non-nationals on the dole.....) by not allowing non-nationals the same access to the social welfare system will not solve the countrys problems of course not, but it's a start! We also need to address the fact that Irish people cannot now get jobs because those jobs are already occupied by non-nationals......

So.. with that agreed

There are two things that draw low income people to Ireland..

1) High statutory basic wage
2) High Social Welfare payments.

1) brings them here (as did job availability obviously) 2) keeps them here...

Would you agree that we should cut 2) down to less than other European countries to save cash and act as a disencentive to come here?

We (of course) have to do it across the board for all the reasons that have been mentioned before... so everyone takes a dole cut for dear old Ireland and the non nationals have no reason to stay here,and we save tons...

Problem solved?