Non-citizens getting the dole? Time to stop it?

ejmaztec

marti8 wrote: »

I am simply going by the figures which I have found, and yes it doesn't make any sense but those are the figures. Maybe they are excluding the north but I doubt it but who knows. But anyway, the UK doesn't really matter I am talking about non-nationals, excluding British citizens for reasons I have made clear.

Again, I am talking about what is good for Ireland, that's it. I am not saying it isn't selfish, of course it's selfish but why, especially now, shouldn't it be....Ireland can go on losing money to non-nationals and see our dole ques get longer and longer or the State can act (not that they probably will in any case, all this is simply my opinion. If people agree, fine. If folks don't, fine)

The only reason that you have excluded the UK is that your "statistics" would be hammered into the abyss, were you to include it. Your argument is flawed either way, because you cannot exclude any EU state from the equation, or move the goal-posts to fit around some strange logic.

herya

Honestly marti8 if instead of each post here you sent one job application you'd be employed by now and your problem would cease to exist...

pcardin

herya wrote: »

Honestly marti8 if instead of each post here you sent one job application you'd be employed by now and your problem would cease to exist...

So true

pcardin

marti8 wrote: »

:pac: Lol, good to see you have a sense of humour (not)....LMAO.....Are you always that serious and dour......f**k!

Oh Sorry Marti8. Please don't send me to the gas camera :eek:

Seriously why you hate eastern europeans so much?! What happened? Had anybody from EE raped or robbed you? Tell us what eastern europeans did to you? Tell truth. Why them? Why not west europeans? Many people have asked this already but you consistently ignore to answer. You just don't hear any answers because your head is full of evil against EE.
Go to youtube and watch some of Adolfs speeches. You will recognize yourself!

marti8

herya wrote: »

Honestly marti8 if instead of each post here you sent one job application you'd be employed by now and your problem would cease to exist...

So immature, lol. Does your mommy know your at the pc again?

marti8

ejmaztec wrote: »

The only reason that you have excluded the UK is that your "statistics" would be hammered into the abyss, were you to include it. Your argument is flawed either way, because you cannot exclude any EU state from the equation, or move the goal-posts to fit around some strange logic.

I am not moving the goal posts, since pre-EU days the UK and Ireland have had a special relationship, including free movement of people, no work permits, access to social welfare etc etc.

Also because of the situation in northern Ireland the whole scenario is more complex.

spongeman

Non nationals from asia have to have health insurance in place before they join their families here on work permits.

Asian students have to have access to €6,000 before they come here.

Spouses of work permit holders have to wait up to 18 months before getting child benefit.

I agree with the posters above. D'ont come up with generalisations about non-nationals without providing proper backup to your facts.

You have provided none, just the usual "non-nationals getting free car insurance" crap.

Darkbloom

So immature, lol. Does your mommy know your at the pc again?

I like the fact how an adult who can barely write somehow thinks he is entitled to a job. Maybe that's why he resents Eastern Europeans who can both speak and write better English than he can?

marti8

spongeman wrote: »

Non nationals from asia have to have health insurance in place before they join their families here on work permits.

Asian students have to have access to €6,000 before they come here.

Spouses of work permit holders have to wait up to 18 months before getting child benefit.

I agree with the posters above. D'ont come up with generalisations about non-nationals without providing proper backup to your facts.

You have provided none, just the usual "non-nationals getting free car insurance" crap.

If you were following this thread you would realise that I am talking about EU nationals (ex.UK) Who are non-nationals, I am not talking about non-nationals in general.

marti8

Darkbloom wrote: »

I like the fact how an adult who can barely write somehow thinks he is entitled to a job. Maybe that's why he resents Eastern Europeans who can both speak and write better English than he can?

:pac::pac::pac: I speak and write English quite well thank you very much!....lol Oh by the way, it's not Eastern with a capital "E"....it's eastern with a small "e"......lmao

Seems as though that is your best argument against what I am saying.....so funny.

herya

marti8 wrote: »

So immature, lol. Does your mommy know your at the pc again?

And that's mature?...

What's immature in my book is to gracefully accept the dole then give out about others doing the same.

marti8

herya wrote: »

And that's mature?...

What's immature in my book is to gracefully accept the dole then give out about others doing the same.

Well, if you want to start making stupid remarks........And an Irish national has the right to social welfare, what I am saying is that non-nationals should not have exactly the same rights as Irish nationals. Disagree if you want to, agree if you want to.

Welease

marti8 wrote: »

To answer the latter part of your question it is very simple, short term contracts on temporary work permits.

And you seem to be living in the past, yes, we USED to have a labour shortage, NOT anymore. And if a situation arises where an Irish national cannot be found to fill a job vacancy then by all means hire a non-national but again Irish citizens should come first. .

I don't think you get it.. which is hardly surprising..

If you put in draconian laws, investors and entrepreneurs don't come into the country.. full stop... that costs jobs, real revenue generating jobs.

If you really want to help the country.. then stop focussing on the country of origin on a claimant, and focus on the work ethic/history of the claimant..

Why not limit dole to every up to the level they have paid in for everyone? Why should I continue to support some lazy Irish arse who doesn't want to work.

Under 20 and need money?.. then get a job... clean windows, cut grass.. there are tons of ways to earn money if you can be bothered..

Not worth your while to work cos you lose your benefits? You might stop being a drain on the countries resources if we stopped paying you to sit on your arse.

Why continually punish the people who went out got educated and got skills, worked hard to get where they are, so we can give easy handouts to layabouts?

Anyone who runs out of stamps is a drain on the country.. I would rather help out a foreign national who is short term unemployed.

Oh but hold on.. we can't do that can we.. sounds like you might be impacted then

GuanYin

You know, the xenophobe comments are getting old, attack the posts and content.


Regarding marti8's ideas. I say fine, as long as the EU takes every single cent it has ever given Ireland back the second they pull a move like this.

Let's see how long Ireland lasts if the big boys treat you as you would like to treat others.

spongeman

I think I would like to see Irish people working abroad treated fairly. Bot theres no point then in saying non nationals working here should be treated less equally.. I would be contradicting myself would'nt I ?

Ok they have filled a lot of roles here but sure we did not want to do those jobs. We can't have it both ways.

I lived in Asia for a few years. These guys d'ont get welfare there. Disabled and no cash? Tough ****. Travel for a while my friend.

Eastern Europeans gettin the dole here is the least of this country's problems my friend. Set up a thread on something relevant, like kids having their support teaching cut or the Banks getting their debts wiped out while family busineses go to the wall.

ejmaztec

marti8 wrote: »

I am not moving the goal posts, since pre-EU days the UK and Ireland have had a special relationship, including free movement of people, no work permits, access to social welfare etc etc.

Also because of the situation in northern Ireland the whole scenario is more complex.

These aren't pre-EU days.



You should get Back to The Future Marti, and leave 1972 behind.

marti8

Welease wrote: »

I don't think you get it.. which is hardly surprising..

If you put in draconian laws, investors and entrepreneurs don't come into the country.. full stop... that costs jobs, real revenue generating jobs.

If you really want to help the country.. then stop focussing on the country of origin on a claimant, and focus on the work ethic/history of the claimant..

Why not limit dole to every up to the level they have paid in for everyone? Why should I continue to support some lazy Irish arse who doesn't want to work.

Under 20 and need money?.. then get a job... clean windows, cut grass.. there are tons of ways to earn money if you can be bothered..

Not worth your while to work cos you lose your benefits? You might stop being a drain on the countries resources if we stopped paying you to sit on your arse.

Why continually punish the people who went out got educated and got skills, worked hard to get where they are, so we can give easy handouts to layabouts?

Anyone who runs out of stamps is a drain on the country.. I would rather help out a foreign national who is short term unemployed.

Oh but hold on.. we can't do that can we.. sounds like you might be impacted then

Strange argument. You are saying investors and entrepreneurs will stop investing in Ireland if Ireland only allowed non-nationals claim dole upto the ammount they had contributed in taxes and introduced a work permit system for non-nationals? Really? Why would they care?

If you only focus on the work ethic of a claimant then what would you do in these times when under 20's have had their dole cut in half and can't, actually CAN'T, get jobs? You say cut some grass, wash some windows or whatever......how many gardens need cutting, how many people will these days pay someone to do that rather than do it themselves.....there are very few jobs out there, you seem to ignre that fact.

And as I have said Irish citizens have a legitimate right to claim social welfare by the virtue of nationality, I don't think it is fair to extend the same rights to non-nationals especially given the current climate.

And what of those people you speak of who went out got trained, got skills, got educated but today cannot find work? So, you would rather help a foreign national who is short term unemployed? What happens when that foreign national is no longer short term unemployed but becomes long term unemployed?

And for your infomation both my spouse and I study, my wife is a full time student and I am studying part time with a UK university. So, we are actually "upskilling" or whatever term you want to use :rolleyes:

marti8

pcardin wrote: »

Oh Sorry Marti8. Please don't send me to the gas camera :eek:

Seriously why you hate eastern europeans so much?! What happened? Had anybody from EE raped or robbed you? Tell us what eastern europeans did to you? Tell truth. Why them? Why not west europeans? Many people have asked this already but you consistently ignore to answer. You just don't hear any answers because your head is full of evil against EE.
Go to youtube and watch some of Adolfs speeches. You will recognize yourself!

I have no problem whatsoever with east Europeans! What I am saying is why should non-nationals be a burden on the State? That's it, simple.

marti8

ejmaztec wrote: »

These aren't pre-EU days.



You should get Back to The Future Marti, and leave 1972 behind.

What I am saying is Ireland should do what is best for Ireand, simple.

marti8

spongeman wrote: »

I think I would like to see Irish people working abroad treated fairly. Bot theres no point then in saying non nationals working here should be treated less equally.. I would be contradicting myself would'nt I ?

Ok they have filled a lot of roles here but sure we did not want to do those jobs. We can't have it both ways.

I lived in Asia for a few years. These guys d'ont get welfare there. Disabled and no cash? Tough ****. Travel for a while my friend.

Eastern Europeans gettin the dole here is the least of this country's problems my friend. Set up a thread on something relevant, like kids having their support teaching cut or the Banks getting their debts wiped out while family busineses go to the wall.

I too want to see Irish abroad treated fairly but I would totally understand if a foreign government in these economic times restricted foreign workers, including Irish people.

And I have travelled, extensively. And I do know that it will suit quite well non-nationals to be on the dole here in Ireland rather than being on the dole or in the case of east Europeans even actually working in their home countries.

You said we can't have it both ways? Other EU States didn't allow an unregulated flow of EU nationals from the "new" member States into their jobs market, they issued permits. We coud have done the same.

marti8

GuanYin wrote: »

You know, the xenophobe comments are getting old, attack the posts and content.


Regarding marti8's ideas. I say fine, as long as the EU takes every single cent it has ever given Ireland back the second they pull a move like this.

Let's see how long Ireland lasts if the big boys treat you as you would like to treat others.

If the EU wanted to give us money, fine. That was and maybe still is to a much samller extent great, we appreciate that very much. But they, the EU, would not have given Ireland money if they did not have it in the first place to give. Ireland right now is running out of money, fast. It is that simple. We have to prioritise and in my opinion Irish citizens for social welfare and job purposes should come ahead of non-nationals.

I wonder, in the US if a foreigner works and become unemployed, how much social welfare do they get after having paid taxes to the US government?

Also, yes, the EU did give us money and a lot of it but we also allowed EU fishing fleets into Irish territorial waters, some of the richest fishing waters in the EU, I wonder how much that's worth?.....But I am not talking about cohesion funds from the EU, I am very specifically talking about restricting foreign nationals access to social welfare and access to the jobs market.

Welease

marti8 wrote: »

Strange argument. You are saying investors and entrepreneurs will stop investing in Ireland if Ireland only allowed non-nationals claim dole upto the ammount they had contributed in taxes and introduced a work permit system for non-nationals? Really? Why would they care?

No thats not what I am saying.. putting draconian laws in place for non nationals, stops non nationals from coming to this country and creating jobs..Companies like Intel, HP etc etc etc etc etc (even smaller entrepreneurs).would not set foot in this country if they were not able to attract skilled non nationals to the country. Some of them already has those issues in the 90's,and had to put special benefits in place to attact them.

marti8 wrote: »

If you only focus on the work ethic of a claimant then what would you do in these times when under 20's have had their dole cut in half and can't, actually CAN'T, get jobs? You say cut some grass, wash some windows or whatever......how many gardens need cutting, how many people will these days pay someone to do that rather than do it themselves.....there are very few jobs out there, you seem to ignre that fact.

You know what... lazy people said the same in the 80's.. and yet lots of people went out and got jobs, and created work for themselves. In the last 12 months, I know of about 40+ people how have been made redundant/taken voluntary.. Each and Every one of them is now back in employment... Some had to go out and get new skills, some set up companies and some got jobs with other companies.Its absolute rubbish to say there are no jobs or opportunities out there, the only people who think that are people who are too lazy to get off their arses and make it happen, and to be honest the country doesnt need them... they contribute far less than a foreigner who is willing to work long hours, doing any job to make money.

marti8 wrote: »

And as I have said Irish citizens have a legitimate right to claim social welfare by the virtue of nationality, I don't think it is fair to extend the same rights to non-nationals especially given the current climate.

Well thats your opinion, one that very few seem to share.....

marti8 wrote: »

And what of those people you speak of who went out got trained, got skills, got educated but today cannot find work? So, ou would rather help a foreign national who is short term unemployed? What happens when that foreign national is no longer short term unemployed but becomes long term unemployed?

If you have skills that noone wants? then reskill.. why should i have to pay because you do something noone wants?
If they end up long term unemployed, their stamps run out.. end of.. should be the same for Irish and non nationals... why should an Irish person not have to reskill and just have me pay for them to live because they can't be arsed.

marti8 wrote: »

And for your infomation both my spouse and I study, my wife is a full time student and I am studying part time with a UK university. So, we are actually "upskilling" or whatever term you want to use :rolleyes:

Congrats, you are welcome to tell me how my taxes should be used as soon as you start paying some

marti8

Welease wrote: »

No thats not what I am saying.. putting draconian laws in place for non nationals, stops non nationals from coming to this country and creating jobs..Companies like Intel, HP etc etc etc etc etc (even smaller entrepreneurs).would not set foot in this country if they were not able to attract skilled non nationals to the country. Some of them already has those issues in the 90's,and had to put special benefits in place to attact them.

Ever hear of something called work permits?

You know what... lazy people said the same in the 80's.. and yet lots of people went out and got jobs, and created work for themselves. In the last 12 months, I know of about 40+ people how have been made redundant/taken voluntary.. Each and Every one of them is now back in employment... Some had to go out and get new skills, some set up companies and some got jobs with other companies.Its absolute rubbish to say there are no jobs or opportunities out there, the only people who think that are people who are too lazy to get off their arses and make it happen, and to be honest the country doesnt need them... they contribute far less than a foreigner who is willing to work long hours, doing any job to make money.

Just because you happen to know 40+ people out of the hundreds of thousands now unemployed means diddly squat. There are architects, bankers, accountants etc applying for jobs in McDonalds and they can't even get them.....Folks can only upskill if there are places on courses etc, we now have god only knows how many under 20's who will be trying to compete for a set number of places on a set number of courses with a very, very limited safety net....€100 a week....

Well thats your opinion, one that very few seem to share.....

So, you are saying that the majority of Irish people woud not want to restrict access to the social welfare system and jobs for non-nationals? I think you are wrong, I think you would be rather surprised if it was ever put to a referendum....... (not that the government ever would of course because they already know what the result would be)


If you have skills that noone wants? then reskill.. why should i have to pay because you do something noone wants?
If they end up long term unemployed, their stamps run out.. end of.. should be the same for Irish and non nationals... why should an Irish person not have to reskill and just have me pay for them to live because they can't be arsed.

You have your view I have mine. Irish citizens should have unhindered access to the Irish social welfare system.


Congrats, you are welcome to tell me how my taxes should be used as soon as you start paying some

As an Irish citizen I have every right to comment on what I see is wrong with the system in Ireland, whether I pay tax or not is irrelevant. Just as I have the right to vote again whether or not I pay tax is irrelevant. We live in a welfare State and that is a good thing. We have a model broadly based on the Scandinavian model, the original instigators of the welfare State as far as I know. And I think it is you who are in the minority. Because some on boards,ie do not agree with what I am saying in no way reflects the majority of what Irish people think.

Huh, that posted all wrong, nevermind....must have hit the wrong quote button......lol

Dr Galen

marti8 wrote: »

We live in a welfare State and that is a good thing.

is it though?

if we had a much better organised system of welfare then the services wouldn't cost 21 billion a year and we wouldn't be in such a state.

Handing out money left right and centre without any form of means testing is madness. The budgets over the last few years, were concessions were made to prop up and buy elections are really to blame for a large part of the hole in the public finances.

Between tax reductions, narrowing the tax net and crazy reliefs and benefits, we have become a state that is to a large part used to and reliant on welfare handouts. Sure people in difficult situations should have help, i.e the disabled, the elderly, etc but it's gone too far. The OP mentions how we are braodly based on the Scandinavian model, and your right there, but they operate a pretty high tax regime to support such welfare states, you can't have have it both ways

Your idea of not giving any benefits though to any foreign non natinals has a few holes. An person I know, had a fantastic, highly skilled job, with a pretty large salary, up until 3 months ago. During the 6 years he was in this job, he paid a huge amount of tax. I'd say his 6 years he has paid nearly as much if not more than I have in 12. He is now unemployed. (for the record he has not signed on) is it fair to say that just because he is from Poland, even though he has made a large financial contribution to the running of this state he should be entitled to nothing?

Thats just one issue I could see with it.

ionix5891

@marti8

are you on the dole now?

did you ever pay any taxes?

what is your profession? education?



seems every second post in this thread is yours, and some people are wondering what have "non-nationals" done to hurt you...

marti8

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

is it though?

if we had a much better organised system of welfare then the services wouldn't cost 21 billion a year and we wouldn't be in such a state.

Handing out money left right and centre without any form of means testing is madness. The budgets over the last few years, were concessions were made to prop up and buy elections are really to blame for a large part of the hole in the public finances.

Between tax reductions, narrowing the tax net and crazy reliefs and benefits, we have become a state that is to a large part used to and reliant on welfare handouts. Sure people in difficult situations should have help, i.e the disabled, the elderly, etc but it's gone too far. The OP mentions how we are braodly based on the Scandinavian model, and your right there, but they operate a pretty high tax regime to support such welfare states, you can't have have it both ways

Your idea of not giving any benefits though to any foreign non natinals has a few holes. An person I know, had a fantastic, highly skilled job, with a pretty large salary, up until 3 months ago. During the 6 years he was in this job, he paid a huge amount of tax. I'd say his 6 years he has paid nearly as much if not more than I have in 12. He is now unemployed. (for the record he has not signed on) is it fair to say that just because he is from Poland, even though he has made a large financial contribution to the running of this state he should be entitled to nothing?

Thats just one issue I could see with it.

You are completey right, the organisation of welfare needs to be improved.
If we need higher taxes to fund our welfare system so be it, yes, we can't have it both ways.

I have never, ever, said that non-nationals should not be entitled to social welfare, what I have consistently been saying is that non-nationals should only recieve welfare upto the ammount of tax they have initially paid to the State. This Polish person you know would of course in such a situation be entitled to social welfare.

Welease

marti8 wrote: »

As an Irish citizen I have every right to comment on what I see is wrong with the system in Ireland, whether I pay tax or not is irrelevant. Just as I have the right to vote again whether or not I pay tax is irrelevant. We live in a welfare State and that is a good thing. We have a model broadly based on the Scandinavian model, the original instigators of the welfare State as far as I know. And I think it is you who are in the minority. Because some on boards,ie do not agree with what I am saying in no way reflects the majority of what Irish people think.

Huh, that posted all wrong, nevermind....must have hit the wrong quote button......lol

"Ever hear of something called work permits?"

Amazingly I have.. 20 years working for and with international companies did teach me something but this is nothing to do with permits..

If you are going to create new jobs.. you need people willing to risk money to start the business. Setting up a new business especially in cutting edge areas of technology which is where Ireland is trying to be, is a very risky business. If you limit the attractiveness of coming to Ireland with draconian laws (taking away any safety net of social welfare for their employees), then they will go to other countries. fact.
You seem to completely ignore the fact that I have stated several times, that in the 1990 many companies over here had to put extra benefits in place to attract skilled staff to this country. If you put another block in their way, they will go to Britian, France, Germany etc. Ireland is now a very expensive country to setup and do business in, taking away other benefits that are available in better served countries 100 miles away will drive wealth and job creation to those countries.
And for what? you don't even know how many non nationals are claiming dole.

marti8

ionix5891 wrote: »

@marti8

are you on the dole now?

did you ever pay any taxes?

what is your profession? education?



seems every second post in this thread is yours, and some people are wondering what have "non-nationals" done to hurt you...

Am I on the dole? No. Am I in reciept of a social welfare payment? Yes. What social welfare payment, lol, I'm not going into details on it on boards.ie

Did I ever pay taxes? Yes, both in Ireland and abroad

What is my profession/education? I'm studying part time for a degree from a UK university

What have non-nationals done to hurt me? Absolutely nothing. It isn't the "what have they done to you?" thing, it is that I recognise Ireland has X ammount of money which we are fast running out of and that that money needs to be used wisely and it's my opinion that Irish nationals should come before foreign nationals when it comes to social welfare and jobs. That's it.

marti8

ionix5891 wrote: »

go onto further education ...

Sure that's fine, if they can get into further education..........

ionix5891

marti8 wrote: »

Am I on the dole? No. Am I in reciept of a social welfare payment? Yes. What social welfare payment, lol, I'm not going into details on it on boards.ie

Did I ever pay taxes? Yes, both in Ireland and abroad

What is my profession/education? I'm studying part time for a degree from a UK university

What have non-nationals done to hurt me? Absolutely nothing. It isn't the "what have they done to you?" thing, it is that I recognise Ireland has X ammount of money which we are fast running out of and that that money needs to be used wisely and it's my opinion that Irish nationals should come before foreign nationals when it comes to social welfare and jobs. That's it.

i see, nice to know my taxes are going to pay for people like you

anyways can you please provide a figure/facts/graphs of what proportion of the social welfare budget goes to pay "non-nationals"

one thing you will learn in your course (hopefully) in college is to back up all statements with references and facts

so please go ahead