Lug vs Djouce?

jmcwobbles

Hey everyone - as ye know at this stage I'm a novice hill walker in training for the Four Peaks (I know I've had a lot of annoying questions ), and I was wondering could ye give me some indication of the difference between Djouce and Lug?

See the thing is, myself and a few friends were doing Carrauntoohil last weekend, and of course ended up being the latest group of idiots to get stranded in a dangerous spot and had to call mountain rescue. We just took a wrong turn on the way down and ended up in a dodgy spot at it was getting dark, and then it took all night for the rescue team to find us and bring us back up to the path and down again. None of us were hurt or anything, and we have learned plenty of lessons from the experience, but it was a bit scary and of course we've all be suffering from a bit of shock this week as a result.

I want to get right back on the horse this weekend and head out somewhere, cos I really don't wanna pull out of the Challenge, but I am a little nervous about it so just want a nice easy hill walk to ease myself back into it. We had been talking about doing Djouce which as far as I know is a lovely walk, but now some of the gang want to to Lugnaquilla instead. My impression is that Lug is a much tougher climb than Djouce and for me, this weekend is all about getting back outside at all, I don't really want any kind of challenge for my first time back.

So my question is, how would you compare Lug and Djouce in this kind of situation? Do you think I'd be mad to attempt Lug or is there really any major difference between the two?

hmmm

Lugnaquilla can be a dangerous mountain and I would not do it if you are inexperienced and aren't a confident navigator. Djouce has a great big path leading up it. People have died on Lug.

To be honest it doesn't sound to me like ye "learned plenty of lessons" from the Kerry experience if you're thinking of doing Lug this time out. Anyone can make a mistake and have to call out MR, but you have to ask yourself whether you have learned enough not to get yourself into the same position again.

Hugh_C

what hmmm said ... Lug can be tough, the wind can come up out of nowhere and all of a sudden you can be bent at 45 degree angle into a gale. It's happened me several times up there, plus it's a long walk. Djouce is yer man ... especially in this weather.

Enduro

Do a navigation course instead. You'll get a lot more out of it, and frankly you need to do it. I know Jenny Kilbride of Outdoor Evolution in Blessington is organising some in the near future. Stay off Lug until either you or someone your with can navigate competently in all weathers, seriously. For Djouce, you can follow the Wicklow way to the base of Djouce, and follow the Mountain metheal path up the front to the top.

Alun

I agree with what the others have said. To get into a situation where you haven't a clue where you are, and to have to call out the MRT to get you out of there safely (and make the National News to boot) should be a sobering experience for you all, and a wake-up call to make you think twice about what you're getting into here.

Lug, whilst not being quite in the same league as Carrauntoohill, has some hidden surprises in store, especially when the top is shrouded with mist or cloud (as it quite likely will be this weekend incidentally) and can be quite disorienting. In these cases a map, a compass and the ability to use them both, together with some of local knowledge about the layout of the summit plateau and the descent route is essential to get back down safely.

If you want to just get a bit of practice in either do Djouce as suggested, say from Crone Woods car park, which is well marked tracks all the way, or maybe join a local club and benefit from their experience to keep you out of further trouble.

Plus as someone else said, if you're thinking of carrying on hillwalking, get yourselves on an MS (Mountain Skills) course asap, it could save your lives, and that is not being melodramatic.

jmcwobbles

Thanks for the replies guys.

I've managed to turn them around to doing Djouce instead - I thought that one of the girls had done Lug before and I was nervous enough about the thought of it already, but she told me last night she hadn't done it "but with a map etc it should be fine" - I just told her no way I'm not doing it. A few of them have done Djouce a few times so will be heading up there instead. Phew!

2 of us on the team are actually doing a navigation course in 2 weeks (the MRT had a great laugh at that last week - "coulda done with that a bit sooner!"), so I will be very happy to have that under my belt and have no intention of going near Lug until then.

You can be sure that last weekend's experience was a big wake-up call for all of us, it's just that the people pushing for Lug this weekend weren't actually on Carrauntoohil last week, so they don't really understand the nerves and the level of caution I'm taking this weekend. I can't wait to have this navigation skills course done so that from now on I won't have to rely on someone else insisting that they know the way down when they've in fact taken a wrong turn and not realised. I am taking last week very seriously and, while we weren't complete idiots last week and did a lot of the right things after we'd gotten stranded, my priority from this point is really going to be safety safety safety. I do love the hill walking, it's such a fun and rewarding hobby, but I have definitely learned that you have to respect the mountain or it could kill you.

Enduro

Good man. Safety first all the way. Making mistakes is all part of the process, but learning from them, and not making the same mistake twice, is the key thing.

Cookie_Monster

If you are doing Djouce which side from? It is a very easy mountain to climb and quite short iirc and full of that crappy boardwalk stuff. Doing it from Crone wood car park lenghtens it and much nicer walk from this side

Lug is a longer more difficult climb up but still realativly straight forward. I've never bothered using a map when going up it, the route up "flows" quite well and is easy to follow. If the visability is bad however this is when you can run into serious problems and will need a compass, map and good sense of direction to stay out of difficulty.

I'd also suggest doing Kippure as another good route. Start at the carpark by the lakes (?Lough Bray?) go up spine between two lake and aim for the transmitter. Get to top and you can follow the access road back down or continue to loop around in what direction/ lenght suits back to the car park.

A great walk to build up fittness for a four peaks challenge type activity is Camaderry in Glendalough. Short intense climb that'll push you to the limit trying to do it fast. Ian McKeever (7 summits world record holder) used to run up it once/twice a night at times as part of training

EDIT: Park at Lough Dan and walk to Kanturk then loop back around over Scar, hit Wicklow way in Laragh direction, cut down to the road and walk it back to Lough Dan is another great route and a favourite of mine. Great views, nice terrain and a sunny day make this perfect:)

jmcwobbles

Thanks for all the tips! I'll definitely make a note of them and pass on to the others

We're definitely doing Djouce tomorrow, I'm not sure what side but I think it is the Crone Wood car park side. I'll let ye know how we get on anyway, think it's supposed to be showery tomorrow but sure that's what they make waterproofs for! Like I said, the main purpose of tomorrow is just to get back out walking, cos it's natural to have some nerves after getting stranded last week. Looking forward to a nice gentle walk after all the drama! Then will be back to training proper - although definitely won't be going near Lug until we have the navigation course done!

Thanks so much for all the advice and tips, this Challenge is turning into far more of an adventure than I ever would have thought, and it's really helpful to have people like ye here to come to

fergalr

I'm going to be a little bit critical here.
I'm not trying to discourage you, but, from the (possibly inaccurate) impression I get from this thread, I think you need to stop and think a little more.

See the thing is, myself and a few friends were doing Carrauntoohil last weekend, and of course ended up being the latest group of idiots to get stranded in a dangerous spot and had to call mountain rescue.

So, first off, you got rescued on Carrauntoohil last weekend, because your group couldn't navigate properly.

I can't wait to have this navigation skills course done so that from now on I won't have to rely on someone else insisting that they know the way down when they've in fact taken a wrong turn and not realised.

In addition to not being able to navigate, it sounds like you had the classic situation where someone was insisting they knew the way, other people were nervous, people didn't stop and work it out, and suddenly you got in trouble.
This sort of thing does happen, but it's a warning sign - your group dynamics there don't sound great.


Now, you've still not done the navigation course.

This implies you are still going to be relying on others to do all the navigation this weekend, even though you've just said you think this is a bad idea.

I am taking last week very seriously and, while we weren't complete idiots last week and did a lot of the right things after we'd gotten stranded, my priority from this point is really going to be safety safety safety.

Yet you are going out in the hills again, with less skills than you say yourself you need.

I've managed to turn them around to doing Djouce instead - I thought that one of the girls had done Lug before and I was nervous enough about the thought of it already, but she told me last night she hadn't done it "but with a map etc it should be fine" - I just told her no way I'm not doing it.

I don't know how experienced that person is. But if you are all at the same level of experience (ie, still need to do basic navigation course) then the attitude of 'but with a map is should be fine' is not one of sufficient respect for the hills. I would be careful going into the hills with someone that didn't respect them, and doubly so if that was the person that was essentially the most experienced person, who is going to be leading the group.


Maybe I've taken things up wrong from this thread, but I'd say the following:

Stop and think a bit more about what your doing here.
Think, yourself, separate from what the rest of the group wants/does whether you, yourself, have the skills required to go up the Irish hills.
Think carefully about the kind of people you want to go into the hills with, and about the group dynamics involved.


Basically, while you yourself seem to have learned something from the experience, it sounds a lot like a group that got rescued last week because they couldn't navigate, is now going up the hills again a few days later, while they still can't navigate, with some members of the group trying to convince others to go and do things the others aren't comfortable with, and with an apparently blase attitude.

What will happen if it's cold and windy and wet on Djouce and someone breaks an ankle? Will the group have enough skills to manage the situation?

Just because someone went up Djouce before doesn't mean they'll be ok this time.

Perhaps you should go walking in the phoenix park, or maybe somewhere like three rock, until you can navigate? You are doing a navigation course in two weeks, you should really wait until then before going out again. And you should do some general mountain skills training, and/or go out with someone else that's quite experienced.

I stress again that I don't know the skill level of different members in this weekends group, so maybe it's safe enough.

I also don't want to be hypocritical here, so I should say I've had plenty of learning experiences myself over the years (never needed rescue, but even so).

But you are asking on an internet forum how risky your weekend walk is.

This means you don't trust the other people in your group to accurately assess the risk, and you're at the stage where you don't yet have the experience required to accurately assess the level of risk you are taking on yourself. This all sounds like you are still in over your head.
so be careful - both tomorrow, and in future.

jmcwobbles

Thanks for your concerns fergalr, I only saw this post today. You're pretty much spot on with a lot of your impressions. There were only a few planning to go out yesterday, myself and one other person being the only ones who were on Carrauntoohil last weekend. I'm disappointed to admit that the group dynamics indeed aren't as good as they should be, and also that the one person yesterday who'd been on Carrauntoohil does still seem to retain some of the same old blase "ah it'll be grand" attitude. This is something we need to have a chat about.

We did end up doing Djouce yesterday, most of the walk was along the Wicklow Way and well signposted and was also very busy, the weather was fab and there were a lot of people out and about. So it ended up being a really lovely hike, we started off a bit further away from Crone Wood car park, parked at another spot where the WW crosses the road. Went down along the river and up a road to Crone Wood and continued from there. This was the same route the others had done many times so I was confident from that point of view. It was just the kind of walk I needed to get back on the horse, and I really enjoyed the day.

Having said all that, they're planning to go and do Mweelrea next weekend! The one person I said has the most experience does say she's comfortable reading a map although has never actually done a navigation course. Also, none of them have done Mweelrea before. I was gonna come up with an excuse to cry off (there's no way in the world I'll take on something like that before the navigation course - I'm so glad it's coming up soon), but after seeing the concerns raised here I'm going to make sure I tell them I think it's a bad idea and that we shouldn't forget how easily things could have gone much worse last weekend, and be sure to have the necessary skills before trying anything big.

I really do hope to improve the group dynamics and, at the very least, play an active role in checking and doublechecking our routes and decisions once I have that course under my belt. I have no fear of speaking up and putting my foot down if it comes to that, in case you might think that I may be too willing to just "go along", the only reason I haven't before is the lack of the skills and experience. I now have the experience of how things can go wrong, and soon I'll have the skills to avoid it happening again.

Thanks again to all for the criticism and advice

fergalr

jmcwobbles wrote: »

We did end up doing Djouce yesterday, most of the walk was along the Wicklow Way and well signposted and was also very busy, the weather was fab and there were a lot of people out and about. So it ended up being a really lovely hike, we started off a bit further away from Crone Wood car park, parked at another spot where the WW crosses the road. Went down along the river and up a road to Crone Wood and continued from there. This was the same route the others had done many times so I was confident from that point of view. It was just the kind of walk I needed to get back on the horse, and I really enjoyed the day.

I'm glad it went well for you - again, I don't want to be too alarmist, most of the time things will go fine; but when it becomes critical to know what you are doing is when things don't go according to plan, or something goes wrong.

jmcwobbles wrote: »

Having said all that, they're planning to go and do Mweelrea next weekend! The one person I said has the most experience does say she's comfortable reading a map although has never actually done a navigation course.

Well, you don't *need* to have done a navigation course to be able to navigate. I don't think I've ever done one (although been on orienteering training weekends etc). So maybe this person's nav is good; I couldn't possibly say one way or the other.
You also need to have some experience in the mountains, mountain skills, and so on, as well as just navigation, to be able to do things safely.

jmcwobbles wrote: »

Also, none of them have done Mweelrea before. I was gonna come up with an excuse to cry off (there's no way in the world I'll take on something like that before the navigation course - I'm so glad it's coming up soon), but after seeing the concerns raised here I'm going to make sure I tell them I think it's a bad idea and that we shouldn't forget how easily things could have gone much worse last weekend, and be sure to have the necessary skills before trying anything big.

Again, the impression I get here is that the group is very inexperienced, and that there's question marks over the skills and experience of individual members.

If this impression is at all correct, I would strongly advise not going up Mweelrea.
It's not K2 - but it's not a good idea for groups that don't know what they are doing, and could be quite dangerous if the conditions were bad, or someone navigated wrong and dropped off a huge cliff near the summit. All mountains deserve respect, but it's a lot trickier than Djouce, the weather can get bad really really quickly there and you could get into a lot of trouble.

Like, people that have a fair bit of experience get into trouble on Mweelrea.

jmcwobbles wrote: »

I really do hope to improve the group dynamics and, at the very least, play an active role in checking and doublechecking our routes and decisions once I have that course under my belt. I have no fear of speaking up and putting my foot down if it comes to that, in case you might think that I may be too willing to just "go along", the only reason I haven't before is the lack of the skills and experience. I now have the experience of how things can go wrong, and soon I'll have the skills to avoid it happening again.

Thanks again to all for the criticism and advice

Be careful with this whole thing.

This sort of raises questions in my mind about the whole 'four peaks' thing - it seems to be pushing groups without much experience to go out and train on the higher, more dangerous Irish hills, on an aggressive schedule, and perhaps without enough skills. If that's the case, that's quite dangerous.

Alun

fergalr wrote: »

Like, people that have a fair bit of experience get into trouble on Mweelrea.

+1000 I've been on Mweelrea once in bad weather with a highly experienced Mountain Leader Instructor, and even he was having problems at one point. The thing with Mweelrea is that if you approach it from the east via Ben Bury there's a saddle between the two that you have to aim for to get to the summit, which curves around. Nice and easy when it's clear, and you can see where you're going, but you need good navigation to negotiate it when you (as on that day) can't see more than 10m in front of your face. There are steep falls on either side .. not recommended for beginners IMO.

I'm unfamiliar with this 4 peaks challenge thing, I must say. Are you doing it with other experienced people in a large group, or is it just you and your mates on your own?

I'd say that if it's the former, then all you really need to do is to get fit. That doesn't necessarily mean having to actually practice on the mountains that make up the challenge, it could be anywhere. Hook up with a local club and just go on a hike with them each weekend, or pick a simple up and back down route somewhere and just do it regularly to build up stamina.

If it's the latter, i.e. just you and your mates doing it, then my advice would be much the same i.e. get some hillwalking experience under your belt first, and at the same time do your MS1 and MS2 courses and preferably the MS assessment too to make sure you've actually learnt the material. Only then should you attempt something like this.

Remember you're going to be under time pressure, and perhaps more importantly, peer pressure to get this thing completed in the time allotted, and under those circumstances, when you're under pressure to succeed, and you're getting tired as well, that's when mistakes get made.

fergalr

Alun wrote: »

+1000 I've been on Mweelrea once in bad weather with a highly experienced Mountain Leader Instructor, and even he was having problems at one point. The thing with Mweelrea is that if you approach it from the east via Ben Bury there's a saddle between the two that you have to aim for to get to the summit, which curves around. Nice and easy when it's clear, and you can see where you're going, but you need good navigation to negotiate it when you (as on that day) can't see more than 10m in front of your face. There are steep falls on either side .. not recommended for beginners IMO.

Definitely - there are large drops from sharp ridges near the summit. It's completed exposed to weather from the west.

I was up there once on my own; it was a totally fine day with clear skies, and all of a sudden clouds just started forming out of nowhere and covered the whole area in 5m visibility.
I was completely fine, it was cold and clammy but I had plenty of gear and good navigation; but it'd be an awful situation to be in as an inexperienced group.

Alun wrote: »

I'm unfamiliar with this 4 peaks challenge thing, I must say. Are you doing it with other experienced people in a large group, or is it just you and your mates on your own?

From the challenge website:

The event is fully supported throughout by experienced mountain guides who will be situated at checkpoints along the climbing routes, which you must report to so that we can monitor your position and progress.

So it sounds (to me, not that I've any right to judge!) safe enough from the perspective of what happens on the day.

And it sounds like a good cause too, and people I know that have done it have really enjoyed it.

They also say:

What if I have no experience climbing on mountains?
Team members do not have to be mountaineers, but a good level of fitness is required. It is desirable for at least one team member to have some mountain walking and navigation experience.

I was more saying that if the prospect of the challenge is causing groups of novice walkers, who have 'no experience' to climb these high peaks in small groups as part of their training, then that raises questions, in my mind.

NathanKingerlee

Hi JMC, I heard about your incident on Ctoohil and have been trying to track you down for the past few days with no luck.
I've no connection with the charity you're doing the four peaks challenge with, apart from the fact my outdoor training company runs the navigation & safety days in Wicklow for them and we also do the safety cover on Ctoohil.
I'm putting together resources, online and offline, to prevent this type of thing happening again hopefully; and to encourage only Kerry Way/Wicklow Way type hike training until suitable skilled.
Will you PM me your number so we can have a chat.
Hopefully I'll be seeing you either this weekend or next weekend!!

meathmannn

SCARY THREAD!!

Maybe I'm just getting old and grumpy, but without injuries why does anyone call mountain rescue in Ireland!! It's virtually impossible not to find signs of life.
Everyone out on a mountain should be able to sit it out for a night, bivvy bag, sleeping bag, etc. basic kit.

Now dont get me wrong, we all started somewhere, and I like to encourage everyone to enjoy the mountains etc.

BUT!! as one of the people who've been on rescues its the rescuers who are put at risk out in bad conditions searching, meanwhile the genuine person who's injured, ill etc. doesn't have all the resources available that there could be. Likewise boat/chopper crews.. all high risk.

I'd love the rescue bill to be sent to anyone who hasn't taken the basic precautions etc.

(I met 2 idiots recently ...in lovely goretex jackets over their designer jeans......pushing a child in a buggy near the top of Lug!!!, they were clearly walking uphill, darkness falling, light rain, and they asked me were they heading the right way for the carpark!!)

I know the peaks challenge helps with a lot of cash and awareness for charities, but this kind of stuff is plain silly.

Evil Phil

I believe they've introduce rescue fees in Yosemite if people don't have the proper cover for their portaledges.

blanco

Enduro wrote: »

Do a navigation course instead. You'll get a lot more out of it, and frankly you need to do it. I know Jenny Kilbride of Outdoor Evolution in Blessington is organising some in the near future. Stay off Lug until either you or someone your with can navigate competently in all weathers, seriously. For Djouce, you can follow the Wicklow way to the base of Djouce, and follow the Mountain metheal path up the front to the top.

From what I've heard of those courses, you'd be better getting a book like "Navigation for Walkers" by Jullian Tippett.

sean_d

Just a hunch, but I'd say Enduro knows what he is talking about here

Did the first course back in January, very well put together indeed - but it was pitched at people learning to navigate for racing (which suited me perfectly) and maybe not what everyone might be looking for.

blanco

The first course is good by all accounts. But, what was supposed to be the 'advanced' course was rubbish. And, according somebody who did both courses them said it was a backward step.
The instructor was just appallingly bad at teaching.

walklead

Getting the right skills is the key, and will reduce your risk of future mishaps.

There is a beginner course for navigation at:

www.walkaboutwicklow.com

Its well worth it.

K09

Does Ian McKeever have a personal website??

Just googled him and astounded at what he has achieved. Found this website.
Also talk he was to have a documentary on the 7summits out last year??

Why haven't I heard more about this guy!!?

Alun

K09 wrote: »

Does Ian McKeever have a personal website??

Just googled him and astounded at what he has achieved. Found this website.
Also talk he was to have a documentary on the 7summits out last year??

Why haven't I heard more about this guy!!?

He's one of those 'motivational speaker', 'you can do anything if you really want to' kind of guys. I went to a talk by him last year and wished I hadn't bothered to be honest. He seemed more intent on blowing his own trumpet and selling his books than actually talking about his journeys, and he also appeared to have taken some rather silly risks, putting not only himself but other people in his team at risk as well. If found it all rather irritating, to be frank. The book was all 'me, me, me' as well.