Football Myth Busting Thread Number 1: Setpiece marking schemes

LuckyLloyd

kamobe wrote: »

Anyway - this might save the trouble of documenting...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/606/A14371797 15 September 2006

Liverpool only conceded from two corners all last season, both coming in Premiership games (Chelsea away and Everton at home). In total the Reds faced 137 corners in the league, meaning Benítez's men conceded on just 1.5 per cent of them. Only one team, Chelsea, were able to come even close to that, allowing three goals from 127 (2.4 per cent).

When looking at the facts it is clear that last season Liverpool had the strongest record in defence period, whether this be from open play or when facing corners or freekicks. However commentators still push this myth of us suffering from a zonal marking system.

So to put it one way... even after playing more games than anyone else, we still conceded less than the rest.

Zonal marking works. Of course you can find instances (like last night) where other teams have found a hole otherwise Liverpool would never concede. Liverpool are challenging for the Premier League and the Champions League (again) using the Zonal Marking system. Clearly it works.

http://www.stretford-end.com/united-articles/zonal-or-man-marking.html

Different article with the same stats. I would like it if there was a similarly thorough piece dealing with set piece stats in a season after 2004 / 5, but I can't seem to find one. And preparing your own piece is difficult because sites that have free to view statistical sections don't go as in depth as to provide numbers for setpiece goals like a pay to view site like soccerbase would.

That being said, it's a good find on your part and I'll be happy enough to wheel it out the next time we have this hullabaloo again.

Thread de stickied as I'm sure many of you will be delighted to note!

Draupnir

Ivanovic looks very, very good in the air. He was attacking the SPACE from deep and whether or not they had been man marking him or zonally marking then I don't think it would have made a huge difference. The only upside would have been that possibly someone could have fouled him enough to stop him scoring one or both of the goals.

If you remember, Lucas fouled him by throwing him to the ground on a set piece between the two goals and it should have been a stonewall penalty.

All this, "zonal marking doesn't work" is a load of rubbish. Players not attacking balls and winning headers is what doesn't work, zonal marking is just a fairly effective way of defending as much of your box as possible. It has become very popular in modern football as the accuracy of set piece takers has improved.

Every top team in the world uses a combination of zonal and man to man marking.

*EDITED BECAUSE THE THREAD WAS DE-STICKIED. Good decision in my opinion.

ditpoker

those "pool only conceded 2 from corners" pieces are a tad misleading... they dont allow for the times when the ball is delivered, half cleared, and returned into a the box to unmarked players who then score... not direct from a corner, but a goal from a corner's passage of play all the same.

two observations...
1. zonal has as much merit as man marking... as does the mysterious third hybrid option, where approx 6 man mark and 2 players are zonal..., or any variety of ways of defending... the options are limitless.

2. lloyd, a sticky... for this??? really? seriously man, lay off the cough syrup, i'm worried about ya.

edit:

3. also, i was going to post a "cracking under pressure" pic of lloyd, a google image search for the phrase "cracking under pressure" returns in the first 10 pages, 2 pictures of chelsea players, and 3 of liverpool players... (and one of dion dublin..!?!?!) thick we should sticky that next.... for some reason.

LuckyLloyd

ditpoker wrote: »

those "pool only conceded 2 from corners" pieces are a tad misleading... they dont allow for the times when the ball is delivered, half cleared, and returned into a the box to unmarked players who then score... not direct from a corner, but a goal from a corner's passage of play all the same.

Yeah, but that would also follow for the other teams that their numbers are compared against...

ShooterSF

kinaldo wrote: »

What's Football Myth Busting Thread Number 2 going to be?

A couple of possibilities spring to mind...

Drogba: great striker or one season wonder?

Gary Neville: great player or most over rated/decorrated player ever to play rb?

Don't be silly it's not about specific teams or players. The next one will be rotation policies

Mr Alan

blackburn conceded today from man marking a set piece.

i think man marking should be abolished.

redout

Answer me this please. If zonal marking is a good effective system then why is it that Man Utd, Real Madrid, Inter, Barca, AC Milan and Chelsea do not apply zonal marking. These teams are the best teams over the past three seasons supported by the fact they have won either there domestic leagues or European cup. What big club has been succesful by winning either their domestic league or European cup in recent seasons (Liverpool 2005 excluded) by using zonal marking ? It does make one wonder why the big succesful teams dont apply this system if it is supposedly effective.

kinaldo

redout wrote: »

Answer me this please. If zonal marking is a good effective system then why is it that Man Utd, Real Madrid, Inter, Barca, AC Milan and Chelsea do not apply zonal marking. These teams are the best teams over the past three seasons supported by the fact they have won either there domestic leagues or European cup. What big club has been succesful by winning either their domestic league or European cup in recent seasons (Liverpool 2005 excluded) by using zonal marking ? It does make one wonder why the big succesful teams dont apply this system if it is supposedly effective.

Benitez is smarter than the rest perhaps.

redout

kinaldo wrote: »

Benitez is smarter than the rest perhaps.

Serious answers only. :pac:

Mr Alan

redout wrote: »

It does make one wonder why the big succesful teams dont apply this system if it is supposedly effective.

supposedly effective? come on out of that.

and don't many of the teams you mentioned use it, or at least occassionally use it or a variation of it, United certainly did when CQ was there.

redout

Mr Alan wrote: »

supposedly effective? come on out of that.

and don't many of the teams you mentioned use it, or at least occassionally use it or a variation of it, United certainly did when CQ was there.

Al answer the question and Man Utd do not use zonal marking. A team either uses it or they dont. Variations of a system are not the same as the original hence why its a variation ! Barca dont, Real Madrid dont (Kinaldo will tell u that if still online), Chelsea dont use it. Watched AC several times this season and did not use it. Same with Inter, watched several league games plus the two United games and they also did not use it.

and if its not "supposedly effective" then why the hell do you use it ?

EDIT: Tip for you Al. Did you watch the Chelsea highlights today ? Well they cant defend long balls.

kinaldo

redout wrote: »

Serious answers only. :pac:

I am serious. Benitez has won leagues and European Cups too, with supposed lesser teams, and like it or not his Liverpool team are currently playing the best football in England.

redout

kinaldo wrote: »

I am serious. Benitez has won leagues and European Cups too, with supposed lesser teams, and like it or not his Liverpool team are currently playing the best football in England.

Well unless he used it at Valencia then it wouldnt count. I dont know if he used there or not but. Anyone know ?

LuckyLloyd

redout wrote: »

Answer me this please. If zonal marking is a good effective system then why is it that Man Utd, Real Madrid, Inter, Barca, AC Milan and Chelsea do not apply zonal marking. These teams are the best teams over the past three seasons supported by the fact they have won either there domestic leagues or European cup. What big club has been succesful by winning either their domestic league or European cup in recent seasons (Liverpool 2005 excluded) by using zonal marking ? It does make one wonder why the big succesful teams dont apply this system if it is supposedly effective.

best teams over the past three seasons != the best teams at defending setpieces over the past three seasons

Oh and, fwiw, Valencia won La Liga twice applying the zonal marking system.

monkey9

redout wrote: »

Answer me this please. If zonal marking is a good effective system then why is it that Man Utd, Real Madrid, Inter, Barca, AC Milan and Chelsea do not apply zonal marking. These teams are the best teams over the past three seasons supported by the fact they have won either there domestic leagues or European cup. What big club has been succesful by winning either their domestic league or European cup in recent seasons (Liverpool 2005 excluded) by using zonal marking ? It does make one wonder why the big succesful teams dont apply this system if it is supposedly effective.

Zonal marking isn't new. Rafa Benitez did not invent zonal marking, but he has pretty much used it at Liverpool for, i'd say around four years!!
We have a great defensive record. We had about ten clean sheets in a row using zonal at one stage. Liverpool has broken it's own defensive records under Rafa Benitez using zonal marking. People need to start thinking for themselves instead of being told what to think by Sky, RTE and the red top rags
If the season had another two months to run, we could well win the league, but we're running out of games. What has cost us so far this season, as so many Utd fans take great pleasure in reminding us is our draws against Stoke at home (nil all), Fulham at home (nil all), West Ham at home (nil all), Stoke away (nil all, that was the one we drew because Rafa dared criticize Ferguson and it got too much for Gerrard, Kuyt etc).
Lack of goals has cost us the league, zonal marking has cost us the league, press conferences has cost us the league, the selling of players has cost us the league).

Look, zonal marking works. Liverpool have proved that over the past three or so years that it works!

Rafa Benitez, you are a legend! Long may you continue!

LuckyLloyd

kinaldo

redout wrote: »

Well unless he used it at Valencia then it wouldnt count. I dont know if he used there or not but. Anyone know ?

Yes, he did.

http://www.goal.com/en/news/1713/liverpool/2009/02/16/1112105/mauricio-pellegrino-backs-liverpools-zonal-marking-tactics

redout

Nobody answered the question though. Why does the big succesful teams that have won La liga, Serie A, Premiership and the European cup not use it ?

kinaldo

redout wrote: »

Nobody answered the question though. Why does the big succesful teams that have won La liga, Serie A, Premiership and the European cup not use it ?

Maybe they don't understand it very well, maybe Benitez is smarter.. who knows?

monkey9

redout wrote: »

Nobody answered the question though. Why does the big succesful teams that have won La liga, Serie A, Premiership and the European cup not use it ?

Teams in the early part of the 20th century won leagues playing 424. Alf Ramsey won the World Cup without wingers (suffice it to say, he got criticized in the build up).
Great managers are innovitive and courageous in their beliefs.
It works.

LuckyLloyd

redout wrote: »

Nobody answered the question though. Why does the big succesful teams that have won La liga, Serie A, Premiership and the European cup not use it ?

You didn't read my chart.

Here it is again:

redout

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

You didn't read my chart.

Here it is again:

That theory is for a headcase.

redout

redout wrote: »

That theory is for a headcase.

LOL.

Also, Lloyd; surely the above post proves what your chart was attempting to prove?

x in the city

redout wrote: »

That theory is for a headcase.

wtf


everyone here is gone insane

monkey9

Deleted User wrote: »

LOL.

Also, Lloyd; surely the above post proves what your chart was attempting to prove?

?? This makes no sense

x in the city

is that chart related to the influx of Somali pirate raids in the Somali coast this year? or something to do with zonal tactics? can pirates adopt a zonal strategy to decoy target ships i wonder.?

LuckyLloyd

x in the city wrote: »

is that chart related to the influx of Somali pirate raids in the Somali coast this year? or something to do with zonal tactics? can pirates adopt a zonal strategy to decoy target ships i wonder.?

No