'Diffuser decision crucial for 2009'

vectra

This could throw the season so far in upheaval yet

Next week's FIA hearing on diffusers will be one of the most vital moments in this year's World Championship, according to 2007 Champion Kimi Räikkönen. It is true to say that the Finn shares this opinion with almost everybody in the F1 paddock, as the fate of the Brawn, Toyota and Williams teams is set to be decided on Tuesday.

The issue first sprung up in winter testing, as other constructors began to question the validity of the diffusers on the Williams FW31 and Toyota TF109. The argument of rivals was strengthened with the arrival of the Brawn team to the top of the timesheets at the Circuit de Catalunya on 11 March, as Button and Barrichello firmly stamped their authority on the field.

Since then, no less than four FIA inspections have cleared the cars in question as legal, despite much wrangling from competitors. "The FIA will decide about the diffusers, and this decision will have an enormous impact on the championship," Ferrari's Räikkönen said. "We're missing grip and downforce; you just need to analyse the performances in the three sectors at Sepang to understand that we're losing a lot compared to the best cars - you could see, especially in the middle sector, where downforce is really crucial.

Although the diffusers have twice been cleared in protests from Ferrari, Renault, Red Bull and BMW at Albert Park and Sepang, the 'diffuser club' could see all current results wiped away in the event of the FIA International Court of Appeal (ICA) declaring the cars illegal - this would change the championship thus far almost beyond recognition, promoting Fernando Alonso to victory in Melbourne with Nick Heidfeld taking the top position from Malaysia, which would be his first Grand Prix win.

rua1972

I don't think the outcome of last races will change. Two things will happen 1 the diffusors are legal and all the teams will have them and be as fast as the other three 2 the diffusors are illegal and the three teams will be as fast/slow as the other teams. What ever happens the cars will be closer to each other. In the past there have been more controversial things on cars, like the mass damper on the Renault. They didn't loose points over it.

vectra

rua1972 wrote: »

I don't think the outcome of last races will change. Two things will happen 1 the diffusors are legal and all the teams will have them and be as fast as the other three 2 the diffusors are illegal and the three teams will be as fast/slow as the other teams. What ever happens the cars will be closer to each other. In the past there have been more controversial things on cars, like the mass damper on the Renault. They didn't loose points over it.

If they are illegal and are banned. Then it is very possible they will lose their points as other teams contested their legality at both races.

afatbollix

its been said on pit lane that they are legal but the other teams just wanted to put in the protest as they couldent lose...

they all know they are legal and prob have a diffuser in the making back in europe.... most teams will have them on there cars for the first european round...

its allso been said that no team will have there points docked...

Slutmonkey57b

The FIA declared the diffusers legal. If they flip-flop, and then punish the teams that ran the diffusers, then they're being utterly corrupt.

Brawn having a diffuser doesn't explain why your car has no downforce, Kimi. Nice company line though. The Red Bulls have no diffuser, and no KERS - and plenty of downforce. What's Ferrari's excuse there?

vectra

afatbollix wrote: »

its allso been said that no team will have there points docked...

if they are Illegal then do you honestly think all other teams will just walk away and say. " Well done lads, ye got yerselves some free points there by cheating" I wouldnt think so.

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

Brawn having a diffuser doesn't explain why your car has no downforce, Kimi. Nice company line though. The Red Bulls have no diffuser, and no KERS - and plenty of downforce.

Perhaps something to do with "Pullrod" instead of "Pushrod" system?

which on the same lines is why Red Bull saying that if the diffusers are deemed Legal and all teams use them then they are pretty screwed as it simply wont work with the Pullrod design.
Maybe you should get in touch with Ferrari and give them an idea why their car that was designed by experts isnt working. You never know, They might get YOU to design their next one. :rolleyes:

vectra

LIGHTNING wrote: »

As regard to the suspension on the red bull its completely 100% legal and nobody can argue with red bull on that issue. Due to the design of the car they had the option to use pullrod suspension which allows them to lower the rear of the car and get a better COG.

Oh
Dont get me wrong.
I understand that.
I was only pointing out that because of their unique system is most likely the reason they have more downforce.

afatbollix

vectra wrote: »

if they are Illegal then do you honestly think all other teams will just walk away and say. " Well done lads, ye got yerselves some free points there by cheating" I wouldnt think so.

they were checked in Australia in scrutinizing and were deemed legal.. then the other teams put in the protest.. once you pass scrutinizing your car is deemed legal for the race...

vectra

afatbollix wrote: »

they were checked in Australia in scrutinizing and were deemed legal.. then the other teams put in the protest.. once you pass scrutinizing your car is deemed legal for the race...

Have you ever heard the words "Grounds for appeal"??

Have you ever seen a judge to pass down sentance only to be appealed and overturned afterwards?
I would imagine that the fia hearing is a form of "Court of appeal" ?
would you not agree??

Slutmonkey57b

vectra wrote: »

if they are Illegal then do you honestly think all other teams will just walk away and say. " Well done lads, ye got yerselves some free points there by cheating" I wouldnt think so.

How many times does it have to be pointed out that the diffuser teams are NOT cheating? I'll do it again: The FIA approved their designs, and stated they were legal - 4 times already. There is no cheating going on. There is only a lot of sour grapes from teams that didn't come up with successful designs.

Perhaps something to do with "Pullrod" instead of "Pushrod" system?

which on the same lines is why Red Bull saying that if the diffusers are deemed Legal and all teams use them then they are pretty screwed as it simply wont work with the Pullrod design.

Eh... my point was that Red Bull are plenty competitive enough without the diffuser, or KERS. Vettel is right up there with Button and Trulli - so even IF the laggards at the back put diffusers on, best case scenario, they reach the level of performance Red Bull have currently.

Maybe you should get in touch with Ferrari and give them an idea why their car that was designed by experts isnt working. You never know, They might get YOU to design their next one. :rolleyes:

Are you denying that the Ferrari's are uncompetitive this year? Brawn have a winning car this year because they gave up on last year. Ferrari and McLaren went right down to the wire on last year's cars and weren't in a good position to create winning designs this year, even without the rule changes.
As it is, Kimi can spout the company line all he likes (and let's face it, that's very rare for him) - the fact remains is that the Ferraris are not front runners this year, and will require a hell of a lot of work to get there, if they ever do.
Based on some of the ****ups so far this season, the team is not working well, so don't bank on it.

Standing in a corner going "It's not fair, he's faster than me" isn't going to get them anywhere (on the racetrack at least).

afatbollix wrote: »

they were checked in Australia in scrutinizing and were deemed legal.. then the other teams put in the protest.. once you pass scrutinizing your car is deemed legal for the race...

Scrutineering can be overturned on appeal, but very rarely.
More important, the objections were put in before the start of the season, not after Australia. Pre-emptive punt in the dark by teams who knew they were in the doldrums after pre-season testing and were hoping to throw a spanner in the works to reduce the deficit while working on their own diffuser designs.

G-Money

Gary Anderson made a good point in last weeks Autosport. He said the guys at Brawn are probably laughing their heads off at the whole diffuser row as they know it's not the sole reason for the car's advantage. He also mentioned that the other teams will probably get a shock when they add their updated diffusers and realise it doesn't make as big a difference as they thought.

I suspect he's right. He also mentioned that there's loads of small details that make the Brawn car so fast which is another aspect the teams seem to be overlooking. I for one hope the diffusers are declared legal and we can finally have the teams shut up about it.

Ghost Train

The FIA could say the diffusers are legal but not in the spirit of the rules and ban from the next race on. Teams keep their points but diffusers taken out of the equation

Would be interesting if they allow the diffusers to stay, seems sort of rare for Ferrari to be on the wrong end of a FIA decision

Redbull seem to be strong without the diffuser, so they could have the most to gain depending on how things go

amacachi

Ghost Train wrote: »

spirit of the rules

Love to know what that means. The whole thing with rules in Formula 1 is to bend and push them and find ways around them.

EvilMonkey

amacachi wrote: »

Love to know what that means. The whole thing with rules in Formula 1 is to bend and push them and find ways around them.

I think he means the new rules were brought in to reduce downforce etc etc... and the diffuser allows them to get more downforce than the overtaking working group intended.

Personally this diffuser thing is why i like F1(not the court case part!! :P) and the hole development series idea, some teams have spotted an area of development and gained an advantage over the others its now up to the other teams to catch up(depending on how the case is resolved) and develop their cars to be competitive again the good thing is they can work in other areas or copy the diffuser or do both its up to the individual teams to decide where the best gains on their car is to be made, F1 is not just about the drivers!

I think the diffusers will be found legal and all the teams will have this type of diffuser by the end of the season.

Biro

If they take the points away from the teams with the diffusers then the whole thing is a sham. They know that though, so that won't happen. Ross Brawn isn't an idiot. He's bent some rules before, or pushed the boundaries of understanding the rules etc in order to gain an advantage, but never broken them. In cases like that where specific rules haven't been broken, all they can do is say "OK, that system is illegal from now on, so change it by next race" and the previous results stand. That's happened before.
Brawn is clever at finding the most advantageous way of pushing the boundaries of the rules for maximum advantage, where the officials have to be more specific about certain things. They'll either look at the system and pass it as legal or they'll look at it and decide that this way of doing things will be banned from now on, but they won't reverse the points unless there's specific rules breached, which there almost definately isn't.

Alun

amacachi wrote: »

Love to know what that means. The whole thing with rules in Formula 1 is to bend and push them and find ways around them.

From what I can gather the teams who came up with the 'alternative' diffuser designs were precisely those who weren't actively involved, together with the FIA, in drafting the regulations. So they interpreted the regs as they actually read them when they were published, and which were clearly not watertight in the way they were written, whereas the other teams interpreted them in the way they were originally intended to come out during the meetings, i.e. the intention, or 'spirit' of the regs. So basically it's the FIA's fault for not making the regs as watertight as they intended them to be. My guess is that they'll be tightened up for next season to remove all possible ambiguity, but for this season they'll be left as they are.

amacachi

Alun wrote: »

From what I can gather the teams who came up with the 'alternative' diffuser designs were precisely those who weren't actively involved, together with the FIA, in drafting the regulations. So they interpreted the regs as they actually read them when they were published, and which were clearly not watertight in the way they were written, whereas the other teams interpreted them in the way they were originally intended to come out during the meetings, i.e. the intention, or 'spirit' of the regs. So basically it's the FIA's fault for not making the regs as watertight as they intended them to be. My guess is that they'll be tightened up for next season to remove all possible ambiguity, but for this season they'll be left as they are.

I get that, but the phrase implies that the teams shouldn't trying to push the rules. To me anyway.

zeris

To steal a paragraph from Autosport:

One leading engineer from one of the three protested teams said: "They say what we've done with the diffuser is against the spirit of the regulations. I'd argue that being ****ing thick is against the spirit of F1! Why not throw them out on those grounds? F1 has always been – and should always be – about clever people beating thick people!"

Grim.

zeris wrote: »

To steal a paragraph from Autosport:

One leading engineer from one of the three protested teams said: "They say what we've done with the diffuser is against the spirit of the regulations. I'd argue that being ****ing thick is against the spirit of F1! Why not throw them out on those grounds? F1 has always been – and should always be – about clever people beating thick people!"

lol best quote ever

vectra

Update I read on Formula one News.

Ferrari design legend Rory Byrne has added his opinions to the argument surrounding the diffusers used by the Brawn, Williams and Toyota teams. The three outfits are set to attend court on Tuesday to counter a protest from four rivals regarding the legality of their cars, of which Byrne also believes are not within regulations.

Story Here >>Byrne: "The diffusers are illegal"

afatbollix

Ferrari design legend

what else was he going to say???

vectra

afatbollix wrote: »

what else was he going to say???

That you would be more knowledgeable than him?? :rolleyes:

Slutmonkey57b

That as Brawn's understudy, he's less knowledgeable than Ross? And that as part of the Overtaing Working Group that drafted the new rules, Brawn would have a pretty clear idea what was legal and what wasn't?

Byrne is hardly going to say "This year, my car is ****, his is much better, and my team boss is a gibbering moron."

EvilMonkey

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

That as Brawn's understudy, he's less knowledgeable than Ross?

Do you know this for a fact, maybe the apprentice will beat the master after all he had less time to work on the new car.

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

And that as part of the Overtaing Working Group that drafted the new rules, Brawn would have a pretty clear idea what was legal and what wasn't?

The diffusers have been found to be legal, the court case as far as i can tell will be about weather they are in the "spirit of the rules" just like the Ferrari floor thing you keep posting about!

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

Byrne is hardly going to say "This year, my car is ****, his is much better, and my team boss is a gibbering moron."

He works for Ferrari not McLaren. :pac:

Slutmonkey57b

EvilMonkey wrote: »

The diffusers have been found to be legal, the court case as far as i can tell will be about weather they are in the "spirit of the rules" just like the Ferrari floor thing you keep posting about!

*sigh*
The Floors issue is not at all similar to the diffuser row.
The diffusers were declared publicly, presented to the FIA, and declared legal.
The floors were hidden, denied, and were declared "clearly" illegal according to the regulations, by the man that enforces the regulations, but only when a rival team threatened to use the same system.

The only reason there wasn't a big inquiry/appeal/threats of fines was that the team installing "clearly" illegal equipment was dressed all in red and good friends with Max and Bernie.

EvilMonkey wrote: »

He works for Ferrari not McLaren. :pac:

Good point. At least with Alonso gone, McLaren only have one driver looking to screw everyone over instead of two.

shamwari

Like most of you, I expect that the diffusers will be delared legal. However it is possible that the FIA may decide thereafter to ban the double-deckers to restore some sort of equilibrium. Shades of that Ferrari floor again, or perhaps Renault's mass damper from 2006. :rolleyes:

vectra

shamwari wrote: »

Shades of that Ferrari floor again, or perhaps Renault's mass damper from 2006. :rolleyes:

And \hondas "Special" Fuel tank

zeris

vectra wrote: »

Update I read on Formula one News.
Story Here >>Byrne: "The diffusers are illegal"

So from what I read from this Byrne admits that he has blinkered himself into a set way of thinking due to an "understanding" (the word "protocol" was used in the same-ish Autosport article) between teams 15 years ago (before BAR even existed). I find this a very disappointing point of view and not one that belongs in F1.

In the same story that I nicked the quote from earlier yet another unnamed engineer says:

"If they had experience of the previous generation of cars they would have known immediately how to treat one particular area that is probably even more important than the diffuser under these regs."

and mentions McLaren here specifically.

shamwari

vectra wrote: »

And \hondas "Special" Fuel tank

Well the fuel tank was a blatant cheat, and Honda paid a hefty price for it. The Ferrari floor, Renault mass damper and these double decker diffusers are different in that they are essentially tests of the rules to establish the legality or otherwise of the disputed components. In my view, the word "cheat" does apply here as the team(s) concerned feel that they are their respective devices are legal and are within the rules. It's up to the sports regulators to decide on this....:D

vectra

LOL
Some people dont mind passing insults

Ferrari's QC Nigel Tozzi - involved for the Italian team in the spy saga of 2007 - led the anti-diffuser argument, slamming Brawn's submission that the appeal is "vindictive" on the basis that the contesting teams did not think of the divisive concept.

Referring to former Ferrari Technical Director Ross Brawn, Tozzi said: "Only a person of supreme arrogance would think he is right when so many of his esteemed colleagues would disagree."

The Ferrari counsel also did not hold back on criticising the FIA, noting the inconsistency of having told some teams the diffuser concept is illegal, and then green-lighting the similar solutions of other teams.

"The position of the FIA is totally baffling. We urge you to save the FIA from itself," he told the panel.

Biro

Not very professional for a legal representative to label someone like that. He wasn't complaining when Ross was working for them!

vectra

Biro wrote: »

He wasn't complaining when Ross was working for them!

I bet there are a lot of men that once said about their wives, they were the luckiest men alive to be married to them

5 years down the road when it comes to a bad end

I bet their words sound more like " I must be the luckiest man alive to be rid of that cow" :rolleyes:


See how words and feelings change so easily

muckwarrior

vectra wrote: »

I bet there are a lot of men that once said their wives were the luckiest men alive to be married to them

Perhaps you're married to a man but I certainly wouldn't say "a lot of men" are. At least not in this country.

vectra

muckwarrior wrote: »

Perhaps you're married to a man but I certainly wouldn't say "a lot of men" are. At least not in this country.

LOL
slip of the finger
Edited

Anyhow
back on topic
I personally do not think they will outlaw them for the simple reason that Bernie did his utmost to make sure Brawn were in this season.
If they do ban them then how are Brawn supposed to fund the alterations? ) Possibly new chassis ..!!

GiftGrub100

Just wondering hypothetically: if McLaren Mercedes were one one of the diffuser three and Lewis and Hekki were leading the championship after the first two races (instead of the being a part of the biggest witch hunt since the Salem Witch Trials) do you think the result would be different.

Substitute Brawn GP for Vodafone Mclaren Mercedes and is the answer going to be different ?

amacachi

GiftGrub100 wrote: »

Just wondering hypothetically: if McLaren Mercedes were one one of the diffuser three and Lewis and Hekki were leading the championship after the first two races (instead of the being a part of the biggest witch hunt since the Salem Witch Trials) do you think the result would be different.

Substitute Brawn GP for Vodafone Mclaren Mercedes and is the answer going to be different ?

Since there's three teams involved I don't think you can make that comparison, and I think it's fairly irrelevant. The fact that three teams came up with similar solutions leaves me thinking it's more than likely legal, can't see the three of them trying to "cheat" and all doing it in the same way. Having said that, (I think it was) Toyota took the diffuser a step further in Malaysia, which may be declared illegal.

Biro

GiftGrub100 wrote: »

Just wondering hypothetically: if McLaren Mercedes were one one of the diffuser three and Lewis and Hekki were leading the championship after the first two races (instead of the being a part of the biggest witch hunt since the Salem Witch Trials) do you think the result would be different.

Substitute Brawn GP for Vodafone Mclaren Mercedes and is the answer going to be different ?

There's another factor though. F1 is essentially supposed to be a spectator sport, to attract as many fans as possible, so all the sponsors are happy that after spending millions that they have as wide an audience as possible. This has been the most exciting championship starts in a long time, and if they undo it now they'll turn fans away in their tens of thousands in disgust.

amacachi

I doubt the FIA care TBH, pretty much all the money matters go through FOM and Bernie and Co's other companies.

EvilMonkey

GiftGrub100 wrote: »

Just wondering hypothetically: if McLaren Mercedes were one one of the diffuser three and Lewis and Hekki were leading the championship after the first two races (instead of the being a part of the biggest witch hunt since the Salem Witch Trials) do you think the result would be different.

Substitute Brawn GP for Vodafone Mclaren Mercedes and is the answer going to be different ?

What are you on about?

vectra

Biro wrote: »

and if they undo it now they'll turn fans away in their tens of thousands in disgust.

I wouldnt think so
The way it is now isnt very exciting
I would much prefer to see all cars fairly equal and have some right old battles with them all right through the season

BFassassin

Sky Sports News wrote:

Formula 1 appeal court rules Brawn, Toyota and Williams cars are legal.

Its breaking news on sky sports atm

zeris

A good decision by the FIA.

ednwireland

sees world shortage of carbon fibre as other teams rush to make them !

bbc link
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7996698.stm

zeris

ednwireland wrote: »

sees world shortage of carbon fibre as other teams rush to make them !

No way! None of the other teams will break the unwritten "understanding" of the rules that caused the whole diffuser issue in the first place.

EvilMonkey

zeris wrote: »

No way! None of the other teams will break the unwritten "understanding" of the rules that caused the whole diffuser issue in the first place.

They have already been working on them since Australia.

Result pretty much as expected. Now we can get on with the racing. :cool:

Surprised it went against Ferrari with the influence some posters on here think they have. :rolleyes:

vectra

zeris wrote: »

A good decision by the FIA.

I wouldnt agree it was a good decision.

LIGHTNING wrote: »

+1

As above.

EvilMonkey wrote: »

Now we can get on with the racing.

Nothing to do with Ferrari here as if you read back through some of my Topics i always stressed that I was NEVER a Ferrari fan. I am a Kimi fan
I did take a liking to McLaren when Jordan went but after they way they carried on that year I wouldnt support them

back to your reply
Racing???
How can you now call it that?

3 Possibly 4 teams..???

if all teams pulled out because of the recession and only left
Brawn
Williams
Toyota
and possibly Red Bull

Would you find it in any way interesting??

Not me

I will give it a few weeks and if it stays this way then I will be off to suport Moto GP or something.:rolleyes:

amacachi

vectra wrote: »

back to your reply
Racing???
How can you now call it that?

3 Possibly 4 teams..???

if all teams pulled out because of the recession and only left
Brawn
Williams
Toyota
and possibly Red Bull

Would you find it in any way interesting??

Not me

I will give it a few weeks and if it stays this way then I will be off to suport Moto GP or something.:rolleyes:

Er, all teams within 2 seconds of each other constantly and with some teams adding a diffuser it will only get closer. I really, really fail to see your point here.

I will give it a few weeks and if it stays this way then I will be off to suport Moto GP or something.

Stays like what? This is the closest season in ages and is only going to get closer. How is that not proper racing?

Grim.

seen posts from a guy on another forum who works for red bull racing hinting that they have a new diffuser ready to go so the red bull cars could be running it this weekend

vectra

amacachi wrote: »

Er, all teams within 2 seconds of each other constantly and with some teams adding a diffuser it will only get closer. I really, really fail to see your point here.

Stays like what? This is the closest season in ages and is only going to get closer. How is that not proper racing?

Where did you see all cars within 2 seconds of each other??

Stays like this as in Brawn literally running away with it..
Dont put me as a sore loser.
I already did say I was looking forward to this season with close racing..
I simply cannot see the closeness of any race so far.. Can you?

amacachi

vectra wrote: »

Where did you see all cars within 2 seconds of each other??

Stays like this as in Brawn literally running away with it..
Dont put me as a sore loser.
I already did say I was looking forward to this season with close racing..
I simply cannot see the closeness of any race so far.. Can you?

2 seconds a lap:rolleyes:
See here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Australian_Grand_Prix#Qualifying and here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Malaysian_Grand_Prix#Qualifying

Brawn only had it "easy" the first two races because the competitors are sorting themselves out. And don't forget that had Kubica given Vettel a bit more space in Australia he may very well have taken the win from Button.
Brawn are hardly "running away with it". If the diffusers are worth half a second a lap as the non-diffuser teams were claiming then they definitely won't be ahead by much. Other teams are closer to them than anyone was to Ferrari or McLaren last year except at some tracks where BMW did well. There's more than 2 teams competing this year I really fail to see your point.

BoardsRanger

Grim. wrote: »

seen posts from a guy on another forum who works for red bull racing hinting that they have a new diffuser ready to go so the red bull cars could be running it this weekend

Would love that to be the case. I believed that their rear ends and specifically their suspension meant that a quick fix would be impossible. If they have got one, they certainly will be on the podium more often than not in the next few races!