'Diffuser decision crucial for 2009'

EvilMonkey

vectra wrote: »

back to your reply
Racing???
How can you now call it that?

3 Possibly 4 teams..???

if all teams pulled out because of the recession and only left
Brawn
Williams
Toyota
and possibly Red Bull

Would you find it in any way interesting??

Not me

I will give it a few weeks and if it stays this way then I will be off to suport Moto GP or something.:rolleyes:

Last year there was only 2 teams that could win a race. This year i dont know, Brawn are ahead but the other teams can catch up.
F1 is a development series so the other cars can improve, Ferrari are bringing a new front wing to china.
Their is certainly more competition for 1st to 15th than ever before.

zeris

vectra wrote: »

if all teams pulled out because of the recession and only left
Brawn
Williams
Toyota
and possibly Red Bull

Would you find it in any way interesting??

And if the FIA somehow banned the style of diffuser used by three of those teams the recession would go away?

If the other teams are going to pull out because they are losing (aka "I'm taking my ball and going home") other teams will take their place or existing staff will buy out all or parts of the team.

Biro

vectra wrote: »

I wouldnt think so
The way it is now isnt very exciting
I would much prefer to see all cars fairly equal and have some right old battles with them all right through the season

What? Have you been watching the races at all? There are only fractions of a second between cars, the grid has been turned on it's head, there's a strong possibility of 6 world drivers champions, it's never been more exciting in 15 years!
If the same thing happened in the Premiership where all of a sudden the teams just promoted from division 1 last year started pissing on all teams everyone would be delighted for the change!

Slutmonkey57b

And if any team is likely to disappear because of recession, it's more likely to be Williams who have dived from one financial crisis to another throughout their history, Brawn who don't even have a title sponser or money for next year, Red Bull who are running two teams and depend on Ferrari for engines, BMW who don't use the sport to sell cars, Force India.... Ferrari and McLaren are going nowhere. The rest... who knows?

This year and last year are already better years for racing than practically the whole stretch of Schumacher's career. Brawn are doing brilliantly, but they're by no means walking away with every race. There's more difference, more competitiveness and more jockeying between the teams than there has been in years - decades in fact.

Biro

vectra wrote: »

I wouldnt agree it was a good decision.



As above.



Nothing to do with Ferrari here as if you read back through some of my Topics i always stressed that I was NEVER a Ferrari fan. I am a Kimi fan
I did take a liking to McLaren when Jordan went but after they way they carried on that year I wouldnt support them

back to your reply
Racing???
How can you now call it that?

3 Possibly 4 teams..???

if all teams pulled out because of the recession and only left
Brawn
Williams
Toyota
and possibly Red Bull

Would you find it in any way interesting??

Not me

I will give it a few weeks and if it stays this way then I will be off to suport Moto GP or something.:rolleyes:

Few people in the history of the world were as wrong as you are on this page. Last time it happened someone tried to argue that the world was flat.
If you can't see that this is the best start to a season in years then I wonder if your TV is facing the right way around.

vectra

Hmm,
Strange how almost everybody here thinks I am sooooo wrong about this when several F1 drivers seem to have the same feelings as I have about Brawn etc. running away with this years champ...
How come you lot know more than the drivers themselves??

Biro

vectra wrote: »

Hmm,
Strange how almost everybody here thinks I am sooooo wrong about this when several F1 drivers seem to have the same feelings as I have about Brawn etc. running away with this years champ...
How come you lot know more than the drivers themselves??

The drivers weren't complaining that the season isn't close. Were they complaining when Schumacher won it in just over half a season? No. They're complaining because they think the diffuser was illegal.
It's not. Now, on with the races. Ferrari and a few others will close the gap over the next couple of months, it's going to be a great season and is already.

amacachi

vectra wrote: »

Hmm,
Strange how almost everybody here thinks I am sooooo wrong about this when several F1 drivers seem to have the same feelings as I have about Brawn etc. running away with this years champ...
How come you lot know more than the drivers themselves??

Drivers whinge that other teams are faster than their own! STOP THE PRESSES!

Tau

vectra wrote: »

3 Possibly 4 teams..???

Hah, last year there were only really 2 teams, the year before there was only twice that there was anyone other than Ferarri or McLaren on the podium. There were quite a few Schumacher years where there was only really 1 winning team.

The fact that there are maybe 4 teams in contention now, with McLaren and Ferarri undoubtedly to catch up means this season is the most wide open in decades!

Amnesiac_ie

I think the ICA came to the correct decision and I'm thrilled the Diffuse Three have been declared legal.

It's been a wonderful start to the season and I think Ross Brawn deserves the results he is now getting. Honda's pullout was rash and soul destroying for all those in Brackley who had put so much effort into the 2009 challenger and Ross put his money where his mouth is and it is great to see a customer team doing so well.

The bigwigs in Tokyo must be kicking themselves!

I think the racing will get a lot closer. Brawn simply don't have the budget to develop their car at the same pace as the manufacturers and it will be interesting to see which of the other seven can come up with a twin diffuser that works with their own car's aerodynamic package the quickest.

I feel sorry for Newey and Red Bull. Their car seems genuinely quick without a twin diffuser and is so tightyl packaged at the rear that it probably will need a complete redesign if it is to accomodate the new design.

As regards "Liargate" I think it is being blown out of all proportion; and this is coming from someone who traditionally has had no grá for McLaren! They lied; it was silly but we all know those in F1 bend and are economical with the truth from time to time. The team have been suspended from the results in Australia and I think the media villification and a small fine would be more than enough. Although I can't help Max Mosley is pulling strings behind the scenes to milk this for all it's worth.

Roll on Shanghai!

zeris

amacachi wrote: »

Drivers whinge that other teams are faster than their own! STOP THE PRESSES!

Drivers whinge even when they win!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNrS9RHMc-I

Slutmonkey57b

vectra wrote: »

Hmm,
Strange how almost everybody here thinks I am sooooo wrong about this when several F1 drivers seem to have the same feelings as I have about Brawn etc. running away with this years champ...
How come you lot know more than the drivers themselves??

Really? You mean drivers who... are driving for teams who are at the back of the grid on the basis of their own failures? Drivers who are looking for excuses for their own poor performances? Drivers who aren't as fast as the Stig? Drivers who are toeing the Team PR line? Drivers in teams that were formerly dominant showing some sour grapes now they actually have to compete?

G-Money

I wish the teams would just shut up and stop complaining about the diffuser. At least the FIA Appeal Court has made a decision now and the matter is closed.

vectra

zeris wrote: »

Drivers whinge even when they win!

Good one

vectra

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

Really? You mean drivers who... are driving for teams who are at the back of the grid on the basis of their own failures? Drivers who are looking for excuses for their own poor performances? Drivers who aren't as fast as the Stig? Drivers who are toeing the Team PR line? Drivers in teams that were formerly dominant showing some sour grapes now they actually have to compete?

And dont forget the designers etc. that approached Charlie Whiting regarding using similar units on their cars this year and were told by him to forget it. they are illegal :rolleyes:

RayM

vectra wrote: »

Hmm,
Strange how almost everybody here thinks I am sooooo wrong about this when several F1 drivers seem to have the same feelings as I have about Brawn etc. running away with this years champ...
How come you lot know more than the drivers themselves??

What about the several F1 drivers who don't share your feelings? Do you think you know more than they do? Your ability to apply logic to a situation stinks. The teams that were clever enough to develop the diffusers believed that it was legal (and were ultimately proven correct). The teams that missed out claimed (after discovering how much slower they were) that it was illegal (and were ultimately proven wrong). This kind of thing has been happening in F1 for decades, and - as always - everybody's judgment is clouded by whichever team they happen to support.

zeris

vectra wrote: »

And dont forget the designers etc. that approached Charlie Whiting regarding using similar units on their cars this year and were told by him to forget it. they are illegal :rolleyes:

Uh huh... and a similar but different diffuser may well have been illegal and as neither of us have seen the drawings to compare against the design of Brawn, Toyota or Williams it is impossible to know. It was described by Whiting as a loophole so even how the question was phrased could have altered the answer.

vectra

RayM wrote: »

The teams that missed out claimed (after discovering how much slower they were) that it was illegal (and were ultimately proven wrong). This kind of thing has been happening in F1 for decades, and - as always - everybody's judgment is clouded by whichever team they happen to support.

Nothing to do with which Team I or anyone else supports
All I am trying to say is do you think that any of the other teams had a look at something similar to this and decided not to go ahead ?
And I am very sure that if the tables were turned and it happened to be Ferrari or Mclaren had went with diffusers and the others had not then you would be one of those to say " Typical" Bending the rules again and just because ferrari are doing it then the FIA say that it is fine.
Why not put it to sleep? It is done and dusted as far as I am concerned and what will be will be :cool:

Because as I have said previously
I was really looking forward to this season with all cars being very equal.
I myslef was getting bored at looking at the same 4 cars battling it out at the front.
What has changed this year??

Only thing changed is the colors of the cars.
Like I said
Dump the diffusers
make all cars either run kers or Not but not some with and some without.
Then have some good battles where 6 or 8 cars cross the finish line within a couple os seconds between them

zeris

vectra wrote: »

Because as I have said previously
I was really looking forward to this season with all cars being very equal.
I myslef was getting bored at looking at the same 4 cars battling it out at the front.
What has changed this year??

Only thing changed is the colors of the cars.
Like I said
Dump the diffusers
make all cars either run kers or Not but not some with and some without.
Then have some good battles where 6 or 8 cars cross the finish line within a couple os seconds between them

I think the biggest problem here is the unrealistic expectations you had for the season which have unsurprisingly not come true.

When has F1 ever being like your last sentence? Why did you think a couple of rule changes would make 6-8 cars equal to the point where after ~305km they finish within a couple of seconds consistently?

vectra

zeris wrote: »

I think the biggest problem here is the unrealistic expectations you had for the season which have unsurprisingly not come true.

When has F1 ever being like your last sentence? Why did you think a couple of rule changes would make 6-8 cars equal to the point where after ~305km they finish within a couple of seconds consistently?

Well
Maybe not that close but come on.
if as the FIA attempted to do but only messed up in the rules. It would be a lot closer now. Even if Ferrari and Kimi were at the back of the field it would not bother me. I was looking forward to closer racing. Thats all

amacachi

vectra wrote: »

Well
Maybe not that close but come on.
if as the FIA attempted to do but only messed up in the rules. It would be a lot closer now. Even if Ferrari and Kimi were at the back of the field it would not bother me. I was looking forward to closer racing. Thats all

So why not make Formula 1 a single-make series? That's the only way they'll ever be closer. If the diffusers make as big a difference as some teams have been claiming then we'll have all the cars within 1.5 seconds a lap of each other soon, and 1 second a lap covering the top 12 or so.

vectra

amacachi wrote: »

So why not make Formula 1 a single-make series? That's the only way they'll ever be closer. If the diffusers make as big a difference as some teams have been claiming then we'll have all the cars within 1.5 seconds a lap of each other soon, and 1 second a lap covering the top 12 or so.

A1 series works fine

Except Adam seems to be in a league of his own.

No,
Seriously though
If it does turn out to be a 1 second gap between the top 12 or so then that wouldnt be too bad. I would really like to see it coming down to strategy and driver ability.:cool:

Slutmonkey57b

vectra wrote: »

And dont forget the designers etc. that approached Charlie Whiting regarding using similar units on their cars this year and were told by him to forget it. they are illegal :rolleyes:

Which designers, which teams, when?

RayM wrote: »

What about the several F1 drivers who don't share your feelings? Do you think you know more than they do? Your ability to apply logic to a situation stinks. The teams that were clever enough to develop the diffusers believed that it was legal (and were ultimately proven correct). The teams that missed out claimed (after discovering how much slower they were) that it was illegal (and were ultimately proven wrong). This kind of thing has been happening in F1 for decades, and - as always - everybody's judgment is clouded by whichever team they happen to support.

"Believe" doesn't come into it. They submitted their designs, and consulted with the FIA while they were designing them. They were legal from the start.

Slutmonkey57b

Taken from Chinese GP thread:

Originally Posted by Slutmonkey57b

Two-time world champion Alonso was this week quoted as saying: "We have done what the FIA wanted us to do and because of that are being beaten by teams that did what the FIA didn't want."
Quote:
A statement from the Japanese team said: "Our team studied the wording of the new 2009 regulations in precise detail to ensure we interpreted them correctly.

"We also made full use of the consultation procedure with the FIA which was a helpful process to ensure our interpretation of the technical regulations was correct.

tells you all you need to know about the diffuser row.
They're legal, they were always legal, they were submitted to the FIA and they were approved before the cars ever touched a circuit.

Alonso didn't seem to have too many problems with Renault's interpretation of rules like "don't steal data from competing teams for 2 years running".

Vectra wrote:

I find it amusing that several PROFFESIONAL members of formula one including the Infamous Adrian Newey whom I may point out would be laughing at your comment regarding it "was always legal" What do you know that they dont??

The reason I said they were always legal is simple:

They were submitted and declared legal before the teams put them on the cars.

Not a complicated concept to grasp.

Would this be the same Adrian Newey who was previously quoted as saying it would be "impossible" to fit diffusers to his cars? Amazing how quick he can get the whole car redesigned, isn't it? Unless he started work a while ago of course. As the designer, he's not at trackside for any major purpose, so the "sudden" departure back to the lab is not a big deal.

Helmut Marko's words =
Quote:
"What angers us is the fact that we had approached Whiting (Charlie Whiting, FIA delegate and race director) for a clarification on a diffuser solution like the one in question and we were told it was illegal, therefore we did not pursue it any further though our design team had similar ideas (pre-season)," Marko continued.

"I wonder what impact this will have on cornering speeds - I assume there will be problems soon when cars are going too fast, and the airflow the double diffuser creates will make overtaking more difficult again, for sure, thus it is against the spirit of the rules agreed in the working groups."

TAKEN FROM THIS ARTICLE

"Similar" and "like" does not mean "the same". The fact that his team abandoned development of the diffusers based on an assumption, does not indicate that other teams broke the rules.
"Assume there will be problems" is just that - an assumption. These guys also "assumed" that it wouldn't be possible to make a diffuser for their car. Apparently they're not perfect with the predictions.

vectra

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

The reason I said they were always legal is simple:

They were submitted and declared legal before the teams put them on the cars.

Not a complicated concept to grasp.

Hah.
easy to say now that they were declared legal
I wonder how would you post now had it went the other way.

As for Newey,

I can only assume that they started designing and planning as soon as the diffusers became an issue of wether they would be illegal or not. It would be only a fool would sit back and wait for that decision before putting pen back on the drawing board.

Are we to assume that on your basis of "The diffuser was always LEGAL"
that Brawn..Toyota..&..Williams had not even once said to themselves they had better have a plan B and go back to the drawing board JUST IN CASE they were demed illegal??

I dont know
you tell me.:D

ednwireland

alonso whining that's new .... oh wait

EvilMonkey

ednwireland wrote: »

alonso whining that's new .... oh wait

Alonso's whining is nothing compared to Flavio's

vectra

EvilMonkey wrote: »

Alonso's whining is nothing compared to Flavio's

Some good bitching going on though

Ouch, ouch and ouch!

There might be times when the various sagas
and 'gates' have us wondering why we bother
with F1, but there are others when the sport
gives us something to giggle about.
What with 'lie-gate', 'Malaysia mayhem' the 'diffuser drama' and Ron Dennis'
decision to quit F1, some us have been getting a little frustrated of late,
wondering whether watching this sport of ours, seemingly intent on
embarrassing itself, is really worth it.
But then, little instances remind us that beneath all the spin and bull**** there
are still some people within F1 who that haven't lost the plot, have their feet
firmly on planet earth and retain a wicked sense of humour.
First off, during his commentary for BBC, Force India's Director of Business
Affairs, Ian Phillips, delivered a fitting verdict on Ferrari's recent form during free
practice, admitting that he thought the Maranello outfit had "given up racing for
Lent".
Ouch!

Then, during today's FIA press conference, Red Bull team boss Chris Horner
enjoyed a couple of little moments with Mercedes' Norbert Haug.
We particularly enjoyed it when Horner was asked about Sebastian Vettel's
performance so far this year.
"He's been very, very impressive for somebody of such a young age," said the
Englishman.
"He was desperately unlucky in Melbourne, he continued, referring to the
German's clash with Robert Kubica in the final stages of the race, when Haug cut
in with; "he decided to be unlucky!"
"But thankfully he told the truth..." chipped in Horner.
Ouch!

Then there was Jenson Button's disposal of Flavio Briatore, who, clearly
frustrated at the diffuser saga, the loss of ING, the potential loss of Fernando
Alonso and general middle-aged bitterness, yesterday suggested that Brawn's
domination of the sport, as opposed to the 'old guard' winning everything, was
not good for F1.
In a particularly nasty sideswipe at the World Championship leader and his
Brawn teammate, Rubens Barrichello, the Italian compared Button to a "bollard"
and the Brazilian as a "driver who almost retired".
Thankfully, Jenson could rely on his Bulldog spirit and a nice line in English
sarcasm. "That funny," said the championship winner, "He seems to have
forgotten that he tried to employ me for this year...", before adding: "He is
obviously a very angry man after the diffuser issues and is obviously very
disappointed that they haven't produced a car that is as competitive as ours."
Asked for his team's response to Briatore's comments, Jenson smiled and said:
"Laughing, basically."
Ouch!

LOL

amacachi

Nice burn from Button there.

afatbollix

feels so good that i was right

vectra

afatbollix wrote: »

feels so good that i was right

So does that make you "afatterbollix"

rua1972

rua1972 wrote: »

I don't think the outcome of last races will change. Two things will happen 1 the diffusors are legal and all the teams will have them and be as fast as the other three 2 the diffusors are illegal and the three teams will be as fast/slow as the other teams. What ever happens the cars will be closer to each other. In the past there have been more controversial things on cars, like the mass damper on the Renault. They didn't loose points over it.

A bit strange to qoute myself, but it seems that 2 teams all ready acted to point 1. In Renaults case it seems to work but Alonso is the lightest car in the top 10 and he is missing KERS so a lightning start won't be there. Wonder when the other teams will have there double deck diffusors, seeing Red Bull one can do without the double decker.

Slutmonkey57b

vectra wrote: »

Hah.
easy to say now that they were declared legal
I wonder how would you post now had it went the other way.

This is the last time I'll say it:
They were not "declared" legal on Wednesday. This was not when the decision was taken.

They were declared legal months ago, when the designs were presented to the technical evaluators, and by the scrutineers at the last two races, and the stewards.....

The decision on Wednesday was dismissing a last gasp FUD move by uncompetitive teams, in a bid to lessen their performance gap. They knew they wouldn't win, which is why Ferrari's lawyer spent so much time attacking Brawn's personality - they didn't have a technical argument to make.

Had the decision gone the other way, I would simply have asked:
"Why were they declared legal on 4 previous occasions, and why is a non-technical sporting appeals court reversing the decision of a technical evaluation." I would also have speculated on what side of the argument Ferrari were on determined the outcome, based on previous experience.

At this point, there's little to be gained by debate, and as I posted in the Chinese GP thread, Red Bull's no-diffuser, no-kers utter domination of that race proves that anyone continuing to assume that the diffuser is the be all and end all of performance is a moron.

amacachi

The diffuser didn't seem to help Alonso too much in the race today. :P

vectra

amacachi wrote: »

The diffuser didn't seem to help Alonso too much in the race today. :P

Got him up the grid for quali though. I know .. I know.. He was running light but that wouldnt account for the jump up
Wasnt Hamilton running some form of

Diffuser

as well this week or is it still in the planning dept??

amacachi

vectra wrote: »

Got him up the grid for quali though. I know .. I know.. He was running light but that wouldnt account for the jump up
Wasnt Hamilton running some form of Diffuser as well this week or is it still in the planning dept??

Think Hamilton had an interim diffuser.

The difference between Alonso and Piquet in the first bit of qualifying was half a second, the same as it's been for the first two races.

vectra

amacachi wrote: »

Think Hamilton had an interim diffuser.

The difference between Alonso and Piquet in the first bit of qualifying was half a second, the same as it's been for the first two races.

cool :cool:

EvilMonkey

Ha if only the diffuser was this magic part that you put on the car and it goes .5s a lap faster. :pac:
Actually now that they are all developing their own diffuser that .5s a lap estimate they were complaining about might prove to be a bit optimistic!

vectra

EvilMonkey wrote: »

Ha if only the diffuser was this magic part that you put on the car and it goes .5s a lap faster. :pac:
Actually now that they are all developing their own diffuser that .5s a lap estimate they were complaining about might prove to be a bit optimistic!

Depends on the car design

EvilMonkey

vectra wrote: »

Depends on the car design

Yes and how well it works with everything else on the car to keep the balance etc...

muckwarrior

What's with all the frickin spoiler tags?

amacachi

muckwarrior wrote: »

What's with all the frickin spoiler tags?

In case people didn't see it this morning. It's not quite an oldschool 5am Australia starttime but I'm sure it was a bit early for some people. :P

afatbollix

vectra wrote: »

So does that make you "afatterbollix"

Ive lost weight sence making that name... im a notasfatanymorebollix

soon to be athinbollix :pac:

vectra

afatbollix wrote: »

Ive lost weight sence making that name... im a notasfatanymorebollix

you could just cal yourself askinnybollix