Is it always someone else's fault?

Welease

Been interesting reading the threads here today, reading the newspapers over the last few weeks and listening to the radio and TV..

It's always someone else's fault for the mess thats happening..

It would be interesting to know how many of the people complaining voted for FF over the last what, 18 or so years.. how many people gave them the power, let them off the hook for previous dodgy dealings etc., didnt expect any standards from people in public office, because everyone was making money with the celtic tiger/property bubble.. so it didnt matter.. or so they thought...

This is a democratic country, and you tend to get the government you deserve,the citizens do get to choose who is in charge....

Isn't it a case of you reap what you sow? and in fact a lot more people are to blame than we would care to admit?

jhegarty

I never voted FF in my life , and I don't intend to start now.

Welease

Well I only just got back to Ireland after leaving in the last recession.. so it wasn't me either

I'm not pointing fingers at anyone, I just find it amusing/sad/par-for-the-course-in-ireland that everyone blames the government etc. but we (Ireland as a whole) put them in power, and stood back and watched them do it.

Scofflaw

Welease wrote: »

Well I only just got back to Ireland after leaving in the last recession.. so it wasn't me either

I'm not pointing fingers at anyone, I just find it amusing/sad/par-for-the-course-in-ireland that everyone blames the government etc. but we (Ireland as a whole) put them in power, and stood back and watched them do it.

Egged them on, even.

cordially,
Scofflaw

ninty9er

If some of the people complaining about the levies and cuts took the time to ask is it someone else's fault that they have:

A €20k car loan and a €20k salary
Sky+
A night out every month
A mortgage
2 holidays a year
Impulse buy furniture/techie stuff

I had 3 of those arguments with my mam this evening. She lost all 3.

I think you'll find that these are things people WANT and it's nobody's fault but their own if they can't now afford them.

You do not NEED to buy a house - especially an overpriced one. Never believe hype.

You do not NEED a holiday, and if you have to borrow for it, you should know that it's beyond your reach.

You do not NEED a new or nearly new car. There's plenty of decent 10+ year old car's out there that nobody wants because of the first 2 digits on the plate.

SKY+ is not one of life's NECESSETIES

The taxpayer does not owe social welfare recipients a Christmas bonus....bonuses are for productivity.
My dad has worked for the same company for 20 years and would die of a heart attack if he got anything near €50, never mind €200 as a Christmas bonus. The box of biscuits will probably be cut this year, but then again, it was never a bonus to ooh and aah over.

I don't even feel sorry for those on €15k, and think it wasn't far enough to go to cut it off at that. I think regardless of income, you should pay SOMETHING. I mean, €4 from €200 isn't going to have the wolf at the door.

Yes it's the government's fault for lowering taxes too much in the good times, but that was the fault. Now they're fixing that issue.

JackieRyan

Agree with previous poster,we hear lots about reckless lending by the banks ,what about reckless borrowing by the people,who would never in a month of sundays pay it back

axer

Many individuals made the same bad choices that the government made thus they are just as guilty.

ynotdu

Yes the vast majority(almost a collective guilt)of people in this country were imprudent.They did not want to heed the warnings.They would not have elected a govt who tried to head off the worst of this recession.

It was a time of greed,a time of hiding from the obvious downturn that was heading our way.

capitolism by it,s nature is cyclical,a 20 page book of history would show that.

Still, without denial and the ability to always blame others would humans be able to stay sane?

nesf

Taxes should not have been lowered during the good times. Spending should not have been left to accumulate at the level it did. These you can blame on the Government.

The problem is, the nation put them there and if people can remember the last General Election it wasn't the case that FF were promising a spending spree and the Opposition were promising living by our means. They were all promising yet more spending on the areas that people demanded: Social Welfare, Education and Health.

Now we are left with a ballooning deficit and spending sucked into hard to cut services in the three areas above. It's a political nightmare.


With regard to people's personal circumstances, it's your own fault if you built up too much debt and no one else's. I've sympathy for you but some lessons need to be learned the hard way unfortunately.

jimmycrackcorm

nesf wrote: »

Taxes should not have been lowered during the good times. Spending should not have been left to accumulate at the level it did. These you can blame on the Government.

Shot yourself down there - do you really think if the government had suggested then that they needed to keep taxes high, that we should not spend so much on public services that people would have listented?

No - our DNA isn't that far removed from sheep. You only have to look at the anti-FF reaction on boards posts to see that people are more interested in blaming than in what should be done to fix the problem.

wandererz

nesf wrote: »

With regard to people's personal circumstances, it's your own fault if you built up too much debt and no one else's. I've sympathy for you but some lessons need to be learned the hard way unfortunately.

You make it sound that building debt is everyones fault no matter what. I don't have a fancy house, i don't have a fancy flat or indeed even a penthouse or fancy car to accrue debt. I instead invested in myself and my education.

I specialised and provided the necessary skillsets (at my own cost) that were/are required in this country to keep it world class. Do you still think that that i need to learn those "lessons the hard way"??

I've spent about 85K over the past 8 years in rent alone, plus the cost of LIFE (esb, bord gais, etc) , plus my own education and upskilling, plus taxes, with the intention that it will all lead to something.

Has it?? No, we're just asked to dole out more..

Upshot of it all.... I haven't had a proper break in 6 or 7 years and i'm dead broke and dead tired and still asked to dole out more in tax.

stevelknievel

ninty9er wrote: »

If some of the people complaining about the levies and cuts took the time to ask is it someone else's fault that they have:

A €20k car loan and a €20k salary
Sky+
A night out every month
A mortgage
2 holidays a year
Impulse buy furniture/techie stuff

I had 3 of those arguments with my mam this evening. She lost all 3.

I think you'll find that these are things people WANT and it's nobody's fault but their own if they can't now afford them.

You do not NEED to buy a house - especially an overpriced one. Never believe hype.

You do not NEED a holiday, and if you have to borrow for it, you should know that it's beyond your reach.

You do not NEED a new or nearly new car. There's plenty of decent 10+ year old car's out there that nobody wants because of the first 2 digits on the plate.

SKY+ is not one of life's NECESSETIES

The taxpayer does not owe social welfare recipients a Christmas bonus....bonuses are for productivity.
My dad has worked for the same company for 20 years and would die of a heart attack if he got anything near €50, never mind €200 as a Christmas bonus. The box of biscuits will probably be cut this year, but then again, it was never a bonus to ooh and aah over.

I don't even feel sorry for those on €15k, and think it wasn't far enough to go to cut it off at that. I think regardless of income, you should pay SOMETHING. I mean, €4 from €200 isn't going to have the wolf at the door.

Yes it's the government's fault for lowering taxes too much in the good times, but that was the fault. Now they're fixing that issue.

+1

Alcatel

The problem I have with the blame game is that is distracts us from the solutions game. More mindshare is dedicated to blame than to finding and implementing solutions.

When the Titan hit the iceberg the people onboard didn't rush around looking for the idiots who ran into it so they could chastise them.

BroomBurner

On the OP's question of blame. Not everyone voted for FF, and even in cases where FF didn't have a majority vote for their members, the voting system worked in their favour, case in point being Cyprian Brady. It's hard to work against that kind of system, but I'm sure it's all necessary and for our own good...

As for taking the blame. There are lots of people out there who do not understand what personal responsibility is. However, there are also a lot of people who do and didn't live outside their means but are now asked to pay for those that did. How is that a fair and equitable system?

What I'm getting tired of is the people banging on with the old "ah c'mon lads, we all have to pay our share to get out of this mess". Yeah, great, give FF a blank cheque so, because that's effectively what you're saying. If we all stood up for ourselves and said no to the government and didn't allow them to take and take and take without accountability, we would be able to push for a more equitable position. Unfortunately, we don't.

norrie rugger

ynotdu wrote: »

Yes the vast majority(almost a collective guilt)of people in this country were imprudent.They did not want to heed the warnings.They would not have elected a govt who tried to head off the worst of this recession.

It was a time of greed,a time of hiding from the obvious downturn that was heading our way.

capitolism by it,s nature is cyclical,a 20 page book of history would show that.

Still, without denial and the ability to always blame others would humans be able to stay sane?

I vote Labour
Saved €8000 to by my car outright a few years back
Do not have a mortgage, I rent
My credit card is, under my instructions, limited to €600
I have €0 loans (once I got a loan for £4000, during a college gap year and worked two jobs to pay it back in 10 months, before I returned to college)


I have a 42 inch TV (saved and bought)
I have a PS3 (saved and bought)
I have a surround sound system (ok that one was a present)

I also have the bank calling me as I have a relatively nice balance in saving, they want to know if I would like to invest (I asked them "Would that be in the same investments you made?")

Am I at fault that my job is unsure? Am I to blame that I will not get my bonus this year (even though I will hit all my committments)?

Yes I do blame the ineptitude of the government and a political party system that rewards the family name, more than the acheivements. Also a system that rewards a TD for interfering in Local affairs, that is what local government is for.

Of course people in this country are to blame for their personal situations but this spending spree was encouraged and allowed by a government, that completely mismanaged the economy. For years they were warned to cool the construction bubble and that allowing people to have 110% mortgages would come back to haunt them but they did not listen.


So now, when after being nice and sensible with my money and should be looking forward to buying a nice house or car etc, with my hard earned degree/job and savings am I going to be able to? No, because now I have no bonus, extra tax, less direct income and more to come?

I am paying for the developers to be bailed out, by creating a corporate cess pool of a toxic bank.
they are not going to worry, they have limited liability and big houses.

Ludo

ninty9er wrote: »

If some of the people complaining about the levies and cuts took the time to ask is it someone else's fault that they have:

A €20k car loan and a €20k salary

FULLY AGREE

ninty9er wrote: »

Sky+

ermm..why single out Sky+...it doesn't cost anymore than standard Sky or UPC..there is ni monthly charge for Sky+ so non-issue. SkyHD on the other hand...wasteful.

ninty9er wrote: »

A night out every month

If you had said every week I may have agreed with you...but every month? I think everyone deserves at least one night a month to get out.

ninty9er wrote: »

A mortgage

Nah...can't agree with you there. I firmly believe in having stability when raising a young family. In Ireland there is no real option to rent a place LONG term and know you are secure there for the next ten years or so at least. Families with young kids need stability like that for schooling, etc, etc. That is not really available here so buying a house, while not an absolute must, is a pretty standard fact of life.

ninty9er wrote: »

2 holidays a year

Agreed

ninty9er wrote: »

Impulse buy furniture/techie stuff

Agreed

techdiver

It seems most of the complaining is being done by the people who bought into the boom. It's your own fault you took out a mortgage that you cannot afford. I didn't buy into it, but I am not complaining about my tax increases, I accept them and expect more to come.

Irish people have a serious problem with personal responsibility at all levels!

norrie rugger

techdiver wrote: »

It seems most of the complaining is being done by the people who bought into the boom. It's your own fault you took out a mortgage that you cannot afford. I didn't buy into it, but I am not complaining about my tax increases, I accept them and expect more to come.

Irish people have a serious problem with personal responsibility at all levels!

I am complaining, as they are being used to bail out ineptitude. It is not as if this was not seen coming. What Minister has resigned, for mismanaging their budget. We see the Finance minister promoted FFS.

I did not "Buy into this boom" but is my apartment really worth the rent that I am forced to pay?
Have the TD's taken a pay cut? Are they going to cancel their holidays? Are they going to work more hours? All they did was cut expenses!! that means that they take a smaller room in a hotel, less expensive envelopes etc

ixoy

I have to agree with the posters - there are degrees of culpability but we're all being asked to "share the pain".

I didn't buy a house either and I didn't vote for FF (in fact I made a point of going out to vote to ensure the opposition got a vote because FF's policy on housing annoyed me so much).
I don't have any loans and I've been a diligent saver, never living beyond my means.

Yes I've taken two holidays a year, but never excessive and I don't spend much money going out.

Yet, I'm to be hit the same as those who have a greater degree of culpability and personal responsibility under the guise that it's apparently a patriotic and civic duty. Well damn it, I can do it but I'm rightfully resentful that it was many others who made this mess worse for those of us who were responsible and cautious and get shafted anyway.

bauderline

Jesus !!

I think I am gonna puke !! The stench of self righteous know it all pompous back patting going on here is too much to stand.... seriously guys get a room and do it properly....

I would contend the following.

People vote for a specific party or government on the basis that they will do a good job or at least a better job than the other crowed. In ROI the selection of policitcal parties is piss poor. During the past couple of elections a lot of people to a look around... Pat "Angry Man" Rabitt scared the crap out people and was unelectable, Enda Kenny talks an awful lot of crap that has no substance whatsoever and cannot come up with any policies other than to critique FF. The greens didn't and still don't have a clue... and SF are not wanted down here.... The Bertie Bus was the best bet in town it seemed... we now know that it was all smoke and mirrors....

There is nothing wrong with a low tax economy nor is there anything wrong with ecomomic booms, they are simply part of natural ecomomic cycle... So why is this the governments fault...

Whilst there is nothing wrong per se with an economic boom our government saw fit to pour petrol onto the fire through social partnership. FF has consistently caved into almost any and every demand from the unions over the last ten years, anytime the unions wanted something another lolly was produced for them to suck on. What we ended up with was a vastly overstaffed, overpaid and underperforming public sector. The T&C's of many in the public sector are still the envy of many in the private sector.. including renumeration. Benchmarking was the biggest con job of the last decade.

The government waste in the public sector didn't stop here, they appear to have been completely bereft of an ability to negotiate good contracts on behalf of the tax payer for any infrastructure projects. A lot of these projects have run vastly over budget, think luas, think port tunnel. Other well known debacles include multi year leases on empty buildings that were to be used for decentralisation, the whole electronic voting saga, and what about p powers.... 300 million was it on a computer application that never made it out of development ? The above is only scratching the surface of the amount of tax payer money wasted by the government.

With respect to the banks the government was asleep at the wheel at best and guilty of blatant corruption at worst. God knows there were enough people like McWilliams jumping up and down and screaming that it was all going to end in tears. It is incumbant upon banks to lend in a sensible manner, not only to protect themselves from financial instability but also to protect their customers from getting in over their head. A lot of people in society have no financial savvy and it is important that people who work in these institutions provide sound financial advice to their customers and help them avoid over extending themselves. But they were not interested in doing this, senior management in the banks made clear that the most important thing was selling as much credit as possible to "grow the business" as much as possible, this of course was ultimately driven by performance related bonuses paid to senior bank staff.... and we have all seen how much integirty they have.....

All this was fairly obvious to anyone with any understanding of economics, however for whatever reason the government and the financial regulator decided to stand back and let the train role on. They should have put the breaks on the banks at least six years ago IMO. Why they didn't is open to conjecture, however the close ties between FF, banks and the developers cannot be ignored.

The fact that so many young people were given jumbo sized 100% loans on vastly overvalued properties during the last couple of years of the property bubble is inexcusable. Everyone in that industry new the prices were way off the scale and were going to come down hard... but they didn't care...

Maybe it is always someone elses fault, that's human nature for you, but in this case their is no avoiding the hard facts, it IS someone elses fault. The Irish people as a whole have been let down by both the government in its reckless management of the public sector and public finances and the financial institutions in a gross dereliction of duty due to reckless lending policies.

The purpose of a government is to act with integrity and lead by example for the greater good and in the best interests of the nation. The Irish people were sold a pup by the Bertie Bus and FF must now removed from the governance of this country for a long time to come...

... its just a pity that those that will take their place are not much better....

P.

norrie rugger

ixoy wrote: »

I have to agree with the posters - there are degrees of culpability but we're all being asked to "share the pain".

I didn't buy a house either and I didn't vote for FF (in fact I made a point of going out to vote to ensure the opposition got a vote because FF's policy on housing annoyed me so much).
I don't have any loans and I've been a diligent saver, never living beyond my means.

Yes I've taken two holidays a year, but never excessive and I don't spend much money going out.

Yet, I'm to be hit the same as those who have a greater degree of culpability and personal responsibility under the guise that it's apparently a patriotic and civic duty. Well damn it, I can do it but I'm rightfully resentful that it was many others who made this mess worse for those of us who were responsible and cautious and get shafted anyway.

Exactly. We are being punished for being the sensible ones. What really grates is the those who were really to blame, richer people, will not really feel the pinch. I am sorry but if you are on more that €150,000 a year then 6% is not going to hurt you excessively

norrie rugger

bauderline wrote: »

"Long Post"

"Thank me no thankings!" - Jim Hacker
P.

I gave you some anyway

techdiver

bauderline wrote: »

The fact that so many young people were given jumbo sized 100% loans on vastly overvalued properties during the last couple of years of the property bubble is inexcusable. Everyone in that industry new the prices were way off the scale and were going to come down hard... but they didn't care...

If we bail out all of these people for their own mistakes, lessons for the future will not be leaned. People need to learn to do proper calculations before entering the biggest financial contract of their lives. I agree that the bankers and ministers also responsible should be strung up, but this public outcry of we are all innocent and we didn't make any mistakes doesn't hold water.

I keep hearing the usual typical line of "We are being asked to pay for mistakes we didn't make". Well if people weren't willing to take out these massive loans, the banks would have no one to lend to. It's like blaming McDonald's for people getting fat!

norrie rugger

techdiver wrote: »

If we bail out all of these people for their own mistakes, lessons for the future will not be leaned. People need to learn to do proper calculations before entering the biggest financial contract of their lives. I agree that the bankers and ministers also responsible should be strung up, but this public outcry of we are all innocent and we didn't make any mistakes doesn't hold water.

Problem is that

• We are bailing out the banks, based on their mistakes
• We are bailing out the developers, based on their greed/mistakes
• We are bailing out the Government, based on strange connections and mistakes

Why is Joe Public any different

techdiver wrote: »

I keep hearing the usual typical line of "We are being asked to pay for mistakes we didn't make". Well if people weren't willing to take out these massive loans, the banks would have no one to lend to. It's like blaming McDonald's for people getting fat!

Again, I did not take out any massive loans, why am I paying for the government/banks/developers/Joe Public who did?

techdiver

• We are bailing out the banks, based on their mistakes

Like it or not if we don't do this things will get worse. It may not seem fair, but such is the capitalist system.

• We are bailing out the developers, based on their greed/mistakes

The NAMA will chase down every loan on the book and try everything to re-coupe the repayments. This would not happen unless the NAMA was established or the government nationalise the banks and stipulate the terms of business.

• We are bailing out the Government, based on strange connections and mistakes

True. But the ballot box will be used to punish the government in the upcoming local and European elections and the next general election, which will hopefully happen before the end of this term.

Welease

norrie rugger wrote: »

Problem is that

• We are bailing out the banks, based on their mistakes
• We are bailing out the developers, based on their greed/mistakes
• We are bailing out the Government, based on strange connections and mistakes

Why is Joe Public any different



Again, I did not take out any massive loans, why am I paying for the government/banks/developers/Joe Public who did?

But.. is the reality not that WE as a country our bailing out OURSELVES because WE turned a blind eye to the government/banks/developers for so many years?
Yes, they screwed us over... but WE as a public let them, and surely that is our own fault?

(and no i don't subscribe to the "well the other political parties are worse theory".. if they are, and we collectively have done nothing to improve the situation then are we not all culpable for our own lack of action on this?)

holly1

Its as simple as this the Gov saw this coming and did nothing to make the crash any softer,Cowan was Minister of Finance under berty,berty worked under the Great CH.Corruption the whole way down the line,and yet people voted them in time and time again.
Corruption follows FF like a bad smell!!!!!!!!

Welease

holly1 wrote: »

and yet people voted them in time and time again.

and that hits the nail on the head for me.. the country voted them in time and time again, and people believe we are not to blame?
If people don't stand up and take collective responsibility then we are doomed to repeat the exact same mistakes again (and again)....

norrie rugger

Welease wrote: »

But.. is the reality not that WE as a country our bailing out OURSELVES because WE turned a blind eye to the government/banks/developers for so many years?
Yes, they screwed us over... but WE as a public let them, and surely that is our own fault?

(and no i don't subscribe to the "well the other political parties are worse theory".. if they are, and we collectively have done nothing to improve the situation then are we not all culpable for our own lack of action on this?)

I have never voted FF, as I have never been comfprtable with their relationship to developers and publicans

I did not turn a blind eye, I did not accept a €400,000 mortgage, I advised people to turn down 100% mortgages, I had politicians trying to get away from my door because I was so vocal against the government policies.

I am now paying for their fawk ups

Welease

norrie rugger wrote: »

I have never voted FF, as I have never been comfprtable with their relationship to developers and publicans

I did not turn a blind eye, I did not accept a €400,000 mortgage, I advised people to turn down 100% mortgages, I had politicians trying to get away from my door because I was so vocal against the government policies.

I am now paying for their fawk ups

Well I never voted FF, I have a mortgage that I can easily afford, and I have never had any loans (except the mortage which is 1 year old as I paid of my last one before moving).. and I live well within my means.. And I still consider myself equally cuplable..

Why?

I knew FF were a shambles, as were the other parties.. Did I actively do anything about it? Do I canvass on the streets and try to force a change?
Do I push and harass my local TD at every option? Did I actively participate in the political process to force a change in my country? Did I attend political meetings and push a proper agenda? Did I hold people accountable for their actions?.. No..
I did what everyone else did, sat in the pub listened to everyone say how much more their house was now worth (:)) and sat on my ass and did nothing about it..

There are of course shining lights across Ireland who did try and do something, but in my humble opinion the vast majority did jack all and are at responsible for the mess (if only for our lack of responsibility in doing something in time)..

ninty9er

norrie rugger wrote: »

Problem is that

• We are bailing outloaning money to the banks, based on their mistakes
• We are bailing out repossessing the assets of the developers through the NAMA, based onto make them pay for their greed/mistakes
• We are bailing out moaning about the Government, based on strange connections and mistakes, who strangely enough are making moves to fix the problem.

Why is Joe Public any different

Joe Public isn't a publicly quoted company whose profits can be statutorily skimmed as a dividend.

That's why Joe Public has to pay increased taxes. Developers are paying in assets, banks are paying in profits and the government is paying in rationalisation and the same taxes the public is paying.

If we had taken the harsh measures in October, this budget could have been made a whole lot more bearable, or may not even have been necessary.

**Vested interest disclosure.
I am an active, canvassing, committee level, policy contributing member of Fianna Fáil.