complete noob questions...

im_invisible

ok, i like watching a good soccer match, but a couple of things annoy/confuse me

whats the 'obstruction' rule? and why is it ok to shepard a ball out of play/ back to your 'keeper'?

and direct/indirect free kicks
i know its inderict if its a pass-back to the keeper, and he picks it up, is there any other cases where its inderect?
any other cases where its a free kick inside the penalty area?
any case where its an actual 'direct' free kick, apart from penalty kick

cheers


edit
i get the offside rule

iregk

im_invisible wrote: »

edit
i get the offside rule

Excellent. Fancy explaining it to the rest of us, none of us here do!!!!:D

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im_invisible wrote: »

whats the 'obstruction' rule? and why is it ok to shepard a ball out of play/ back to your 'keeper'?

It should be obstruction when a player does that, but the vast majority of referee turn a blind eye.

Don't ask why, they also turn a blind eye to foul throws in the top level of the game, much to my own personal distaste.

im_invisible wrote: »

and direct/indirect free kicks
i know its inderict if its a pass-back to the keeper, and he picks it up, is there any other cases where its inderect?

Law 12 Covers this question

An indirect free kick is awarded to the opposing team if a goalkeeper, inside his own penalty area, commits any of the following offences:

takes more than six seconds while controlling the ball with his hands, before releasing it from his possession

touches the ball again with his hands after it has been released from his possession and has not touched any other player

touches the ball with his hands after it has been deliberately kicked to him by a team-mate

touches the ball with his hands after he has received it directly from a throw-in taken by a team-mate

An indirect free kick is also awarded to the opposing team if a player, in the opinion of the referee, commits any of the following three offences:

plays in a dangerous manner

impedes the progress of an opponent

prevents the goalkeeper from releasing the ball from his hands

commits any other offence, not previously mentioned in Law 12, for which play is stopped to caution or dismiss a player

The indirect free kick is taken from where the offence occurred.

im_invisible wrote: »

any other cases where its a free kick inside the penalty area?

An Indirect Free Kick?

See above.

im_invisible wrote: »

any case where its an actual 'direct' free kick, apart from penalty kick

An offence which would normally result in a Direct Free Kick being awarded to the attacking team in the penalty area, is a penalty.

matrim

whats the 'obstruction' rule? and why is it ok to shepard a ball out of play/ back to your 'keeper'?

My View on this is that you are deemed to be in control of the ball even though you haven't actually touched it.

Quint

matrim wrote: »

My View on this is that you are deemed to be in control of the ball even though you haven't actually touched it.

Correct!

BaZmO*

matrim wrote: »

My View on this is that you are deemed to be in control of the ball even though you haven't actually touched it.

Yeah that was my view of it too. Nonetheless it's quite annoying.

joe123

Des wrote: »

An offence which would normally result in a Direct Free Kick being awarded to the attacking team in the penalty area, is a penalty.

Your allowed pass the ball taking a penalty arent you? ala Henry/Pires debacle a few years back.

Chardee MacDennis

yes and you're also allowed to pass the ball from a direct free kick... if i have understood your point correctly!

ShooterSF

joe123 wrote: »

Your allowed pass the ball taking a penalty arent you? ala Henry/Pires debacle a few years back.

Direct doesn't mean you have to shoot no matter what ya learned playin wembo

im_invisible

joe123 wrote: »

Your allowed pass the ball taking a penalty arent you?

cheers for the replies, you learn something new every day

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im_invisible wrote: »

cheers for the replies, you learn something new every day

A penalty is just a special kind of Direct Free Kick.

Picture this.

Liverpool gat a Direct Free Kick on the edge of the box.

Sometimes the ball is just rolled to Steven Gerrard to shoot.

Sometimes Direct Free Kicks are awarded in the centre circle, and a pass goes sideways to a winger, or maybe even backwards to a defender. You don't have to shoot, and you can kick the ball in any direction you want.

When it comes to a penalty, if you want to pass the ball, you better make sure the player who is going to receive the pass is behind or level with the ball, because it he is ahead of the ball, and the ball is played forward to him, he will be flagged offside.

BaZmO*

Des wrote: »

When it comes to a penalty, if you want to pass the ball, you better make sure the player who is going to receive the pass is behind or level with the ball, because it he is ahead of the ball, and the ball is played forward to him, he will be flagged offside.

Huh? You have to be outside the box anyway.

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BaZmO* wrote: »

Huh? You have to be outside the box anyway.

Of course. Apologies.

When it comes to a Direct Free Kick, including a penalty, the taker may not touch the ball a second time.

Which is the very reason this type of free kick was banned

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wjq2xT-tx38

The guy who flicks it up, touches it twice.

BaZmO*

Did he touch it twice?

Also, is it true that only the taker of the penalty is allowed to place the ball on the spot?
I think I remember seeing it as a reason for a penalty being disallowed on a Question of Sport years ago.

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BaZmO* wrote: »

Did he touch it twice?

Both feet/legs couldn't have touched the ball at the same time

Regarding your other question, Law 14 deals with the Penalty Kick in some detail, and doesn't mention that the penalty taker must place the ball.

But.

The ball:
is placed on the penalty mark

The player taking the penalty kick:
is properly identified

The defending goalkeeper:
remains on his goal line, facing the kicker, between the goalposts until the ball has been kicked

BaZmO*

Des wrote: »

Both feet/legs couldn't have touched the ball at the same time

Ha. true!

ShooterSF

A technical one I've always wondered. Should a peno be retaken if scored but the keeper was off his line as it was took or should a kind of advantage be played?

Pigman III

Doesn't an indirect free kick also occur in situation's of simulation on the opposing players part?

BaZmO*

ShooterSF wrote: »

A technical one I've always wondered. Should a peno be retaken if scored but the keeper was off his line as it was took or should a kind of advantage be played?

I'd imagine the latter. Not sure what the rules say though.

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ShooterSF wrote: »

A technical one I've always wondered. Should a peno be retaken if scored but the keeper was off his line as it was took or should a kind of advantage be played?

Back to Law 12 for this

The goalkeeper infringes the Laws of the Game:

- the referee allows the kick to proceed
- if the ball enters the goal, a goal is awarded
- if the ball does not enter the goal, the kick is retaken

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Actually, in contradiction to what I said earlier.

A penalty must be played forward, according to Law 12


Procedure

- the player taking the penalty kicks the ball forward
- he does not play the ball a second time until it has touched another player
- the ball is in play when it is kicked and moves forward

Learn something new every day.

_blank_

BaZmO* wrote: »

I'd imagine the latter. Not sure what the rules say though.

Association Football has no rules.

It has Laws, the referees are the judges charged with interpreting those laws.

ShooterSF

Quite the little informative thread/des we have here Also it hasn't descended into team x vs team y. Niiicccceeee.

_blank_

Qualified Ref so I am.

Also, I like to know the Laws off by heart so I can beat refs over the head with it if they go against us in the league :pac:

matrim

Des wrote: »

Actually, in contradiction to what I said earlier.

A penalty must be played forward, according to Law 12


Procedure

- the player taking the penalty kicks the ball forward
- he does not play the ball a second time until it has touched another player
- the ball is in play when it is kicked and moves forward

Learn something new every day.

Yeah, a penalty and kick off must both be played forward. I'm not aware of any other type of free / set piece that must be played forward.

pierrot

Indirect freekicks seem to have disappeared in the last couple of years, no? Rarely see one given now. Was this an official directive for the referees i wonder.

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matrim wrote: »

I'm not aware of any other type of free / set piece that must be played forward.

The Kick Off

Law 8 - The Start and Re-Start of Play


Procedure

all players are in their own half of the field

the opponents of the team taking the kick-off are at least 9.15 m (10 yds) from the ball until it is in play

the ball is stationary on the centre mark

the referee gives a signal

the ball is in play when it is kicked and moves forward

the kicker does not touch the ball a second time until it has touched another player

After a team scores a goal, the kick-off is taken by the other team

If the kicker touches the ball a second time before it has touched another player:

an indirect free kick is awarded to the opposing team to be taken from the place where the infringement occurred* (see preface)
.

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pierrot wrote: »

Indirect freekicks seem to have disappeared in the last couple of years, no? Rarely see one given now. Was this an official directive for the referees i wonder.

An indirect free kick is given every time an off-side offence is penalised by the referee.

You just don't see many other infringements which would be punishable by an indirect free kick.

Obstruction seems to have been phased out, granted, for whatever reason.

Xavi6

pierrot wrote: »

Indirect freekicks seem to have disappeared in the last couple of years, no? Rarely see one given now. Was this an official directive for the referees i wonder.

Backpasses. See Ronaldo v Villa for a recent example.

pierrot

Yeah, obstruction and backpass. I remember we would give them for 'accidental handball' until i discovered this was a malaprop, handball by definition is deliberate according to the laws.
Can you clear that up please Des? It has led to me arguing possibly every handball given in games. I know it's difficult for the ref to judge whether or not handball is deliberate.

_blank_

If a handball is being penalised, it is definitely a Direct Free Kick

There is no such thing as an "accidental hand ball" offence - as only "deliberate hand ball" is punishable.

Law 12 - Fouls and Misconduct

A direct free kick is awarded to the opposing team if a player commits any of the following six offences in a manner considered by the referee to be careless, reckless or using excessive force:

kicks or attempts to kick an opponent

trips or attempts to trip an opponent

jumps at an opponent - John Terry last night, imo

charges an opponent

strikes or attempts to strike an opponent

pushes an opponent

A direct free kick is also awarded to the opposing team if a player commits any of the following four offences:

tackles an opponent to gain possession of the ball, making contact with the opponent before touching the ball

holds an opponent

spits at an opponent

handles the ball deliberately (except for the goalkeeper within his own penalty area)

So, accidental hand ball is not an offence, under the laws of the game, if no offence occurs, there is no punishment, so any referee blowing up for an accidental handball, and giving an Indirect Free Kick is an absolute clown.

pierrot

Yep, that's what I thought. And if thats the case, does that not rule out most of handballs that are given week in week out?
Btw, when i said 'we would give them', I meant years ago in school

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pierrot wrote: »

And if thats the case, does that not rule out most of handballs that are given week in week out?

Depends on the ref, if he interprets it as deliberate, he has to give the free kick/penalty.

Incidentally, speaking of clownish refs and mad interpretations of laws.

Law 12

An indirect free kick is awarded to the opposing team if a goalkeeper, inside his own penalty area, commits any of the following offences:

takes more than six seconds while controlling the ball with his hands, before releasing it from his possession

touches the ball again with his hands after it has been released from his possession and has not touched any other player

touches the ball with his hands after it has been deliberately kicked to him by a team-mate

touches the ball with his hands after he has received it directly from a throw-in taken by a team-mate

The highlighted part above.

I remember one referee would penalise the goalkeeper if he bounced the ball before kicking or throwing it, in an extremely literal interpretation of that Law.

He was a clown.

Mr Alan

Des wrote: »

I remember one referee would penalise the goalkeeper if he bounced the ball before kicking or throwing it, in an extremely literal interpretation of that Law.

He was a clown.

that was you, wasnt it?

im_invisible

Des wrote: »

A penalty must be played forward, according to Law 12

Procedure
- the player taking the penalty kicks the ball forward
- he does not play the ball a second time until it has touched another player
....

so, if a player takes a penalty, and the ball hits the post/crossbar, and comes back, he cant touch it again?

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im_invisible wrote: »

so, if a player takes a penalty, and the ball hits the post/crossbar, and comes back, he cant touch it again?

This is correct, for a Penalty/Free Kick/Corner/Throw/Kick Off, the taker may only touch the ball once, and may not touch it again until another player, from his own team or the other team, touches it after him.

BaZmO*

Good point about the "Laws" over "Rules" and I suppose that's always were the confusion arises in some decisions in that it is an interpretation rather than a strict adherence to the rules.

geurrp the yard

BaZmO* wrote: »

Good point about the "Laws" over "Rules" and I suppose that's always were the confusion arises in some decisions in that it is an interpretation rather than a strict adherence to the rules.

Another rule fairly common in schoolboy is when a player shouts "mine" or "my ball". This is deemed as dangerous play and a indirect free is awarded. Never seen it implemented in the premiership or top level football.

Broxi_Bear_Eire

geurrp the yard wrote: »

Another rule fairly common in schoolboy is when a player shouts "mine" or "my ball". This is deemed as dangerous play and a indirect free is awarded. Never seen it implemented in the premiership or top level football.

Don't think its classed as dangerous play more ungentlemanly conduct you are supposed to call a name