Turkey and the EU

gurramok

r14 wrote: »

In Austria it's an offence to deny the holocaust. Is that free speech?

The EU is not the noble beacon of human rights for the world that some seem to believe. Turkey has come on greatly in terms of human rights because of its negotiations for EU candidature. Bear in mind France and the UK are frequently in front of the ECHR for torture. You just look at the police (over)reaction at the G 20 a few weeks ago to realise the EU countries aren't faultless. Bringing Turkey closer to the EU would allow more pressure be placed on them to improve human rights and address many issues that other States aren't happy with.

I think the best reason for delaying Turkey's entry (not excluding them altogether) is that the EU needs to strengthen itself with a new institutional framework and bed in the newer eastern countries. I see no reason why negotiations shouldn't continue with Turkey with an eye to bringing them in later.

So Austria has a good law you about massacring a few million you do not like?

Where is the equivalent Turkish law about denying the Armenian genocide of 1.5m people?

Yes, i forgot about the recent massacre of the G20 protesters and that freedom of expression rally. A rally by Kurds for basic freedom of expression would not be allowed in Turkey.

Denerick wrote: »

I agree, the Kurdish question needs to be resolved. But there are several examples across the EU where minorities who want independence are not getting it - The Basques, Catalans, Flemings, even our own people north of the border. The Kurds openly use terrorist tactics to persue their ends. Not all obviously, but some.

To be fair, the british adopted similar policies in dealing with the IRA. Would the British government have been allowed entry to the EU during the Troubles?

And thanks for proving you've no interest in reasonable discussion by trying to assert that I deny the Armenian genocide. Its a wonder how you can ask that question with a straight face.

The Basques, Catalans, Flemings, even our own people north of the border have freedom of expression and can vote in the ballot box for a nationalist party they aspire to. The Kurds are not allowed to vote for a Kurdish party as all Kurdish parties are banned, have you not noticed that?

I don't remember those mass graves during the troubles and the denying of protesting, do you?

You said:

And really, is the Islamic fundamentalism, genocide denial really enough reason to forbid them entry

You brought up Austria, Austria does not deny genocide, Turkey does. A difference there.

Many of Turkey's problems mirror the problems of other countries that have been admitted to the EU in the past. The two major differences are that 1) Turkey is big and 2) Turkey is Muslim.

Which countries?

If you are referring to Belgium, there you have 2 people's living in peace for centuries.
If you are referring to Spain, you have democratically elected Basques and freedom of expression for Basques as well as Catalans for that matter.
If you are referring to Czechoslovakia, they spilt up amicably.

What could you be referring to?

Denerick

gurramok wrote: »

So Austria has a good law you about massacring a few million you do not like?

Shows how pure your respect for freedom of speech is.

The Basques, Catalans, Flemings, even our own people north of the border have freedom of expression and can vote in the ballot box for a nationalist party they aspire to. The Kurds are not allowed to vote for a Kurdish party as all Kurdish parties are banned, have you not noticed that?

Show me a Kurdish party which has never advocated terrorist tactics in some sense. Gerry Adams voice was banned her ffs.

I don't remember those mass graves during the troubles and the denying of protesting, do you?

Christ. The Armenian genocide happened almost a century ago. Huge difference there. Plenty of European countries committed huge offences back then and right through WWII. Yet they are now respectable EU partners. The genocide is hotley debated in Turkey and writers have went to jail over claiming it occurred. Sooner or later the public will own up to it. Lets not get so self righteous about it.

You brought up Austria, Austria does not deny genocide, Turkey does. A difference there.

Austria voted in large numbers for a far right political party. I'm talking about Austria's history - it seems that Austria is simply another country which hasn't come to terms with its past. Is that a bar of entry to the EU?

Which countries?

If you are referring to Belgium, there you have 2 people's living in peace for centuries.
If you are referring to Spain, you have democratically elected Basques and freedom of expression for Basques as well as Catalans for that matter.
If you are referring to Czechoslovakia, they spilt up amicably.

What could you be referring to?

Germany, Austria and many of the eastern bloc countries have a more than checquered past. Bulgaria is rampant with organised crime. As is Romania. Serbia launched an ethnic cleansing campaign not more than 10 years ago, yet will probably be a member of the EU before Turkey. Croatia was ruled by a tyrant for most of the 1990s, yet will soon be an EU member.

Spain has an ETA problem.

Plenty of rich examples which never barred these countries to applying or entering the EU.

As to the earlier poster, I'm well aware of the british acession date. I was asking the other guy what he thought.

gurramok

Denerick wrote: »

Shows how pure your respect for freedom of speech is.

Why should someone be allowed to insult teh deaths of millions at the hand of a butcher? Its a righteous law.

Denerick wrote: »

Show me a Kurdish party which has never advocated terrorist tactics in some sense. Gerry Adams voice was banned her ffs.

One mans freedom fighter is another's terrorist. You are moving the goalposts now onto terrorism from freedom of expression, where are the civil rights for Kurds?

Why can they not be allowed to have a Kurdish party of their own?

Denerick wrote: »

Christ. The Armenian genocide happened almost a century ago. Huge difference there. Plenty of European countries committed huge offences back then and right through WWII. Yet they are now respectable EU partners. The genocide is hotley debated in Turkey and writers have went to jail over claiming it occurred. Sooner or later the public will own up to it. Lets not get so self righteous about it.

In case you did not notice, all those countries(Germany etc) apologised unreservedly for their cruel actions then. Turkey has not apoligised for its cruel past and present ventures on its own people.

Yes, we know about the writers. Jailed for 'insulting Turkishness'. That to me is not a democratic country on that point.

Sooner or later has not translated into new laws and respect for that freedom of expression.

Denerick wrote: »

Austria voted in large numbers for a far right political party. I'm talking about Austria's history - it seems that Austria is simply another country which hasn't come to terms with its past. Is that a bar of entry to the EU?

Austria has acknowledged its bad past and does not persecute its citizens.

Denerick wrote: »

Germany, Austria and many of the eastern bloc countries have a more than checquered past. Bulgaria is rampant with organised crime. As is Romania. Serbia launched an ethnic cleansing campaign not more than 10 years ago, yet will probably be a member of the EU before Turkey. Croatia was ruled by a tyrant for most of the 1990s, yet will soon be an EU member.

So its now orgainised crime as a comparator to persecution!

Have you noticed Serbia has handed over war criminals as well as Croatia and acknowledged their wrongdoing?

Turkey denies it has done anything wrong present and past!

Denerick wrote: »

Spain has an ETA problem.

Plenty of rich examples which never barred these countries to applying or entering the EU.

Here we go, tiny groups do not affect the qualification status. If you had read, Basques have civil rights and freedom of movement, try that in Turkey if you are a Kurd.

Denerick

Yawn. Too early to continue this. Don't think I can cut out this quote malarky people go on with in the politics forum.

halkar

gurramok wrote: »

....

Why can they not be allowed to have a Kurdish party of their own?

DTP Democratic Society Party, a Kurdish party has recently (last month) won in 8 main municipalities. Democratic Society Party

fly_agaric

Denerick wrote:

Fact is, we don't want them because they are brown.

That's one reason.:p

And I've heard they are still quite religious despite Attaturk's efforts, and its also a different one to what we are used to.

They are poorer than us at the moment too. Turkey isn't a "small" country either...

I can't help laughing when I read talk of Turkey "joining" the EU at some point, subject to numerous conditions imposed, or maybe Russia may yet "join" the "EU" in the future subject to yet more strictures. Sure its just like Ireland really - they're gagging to "join" and we can easily bash them into shape so they'll fit better.

It could all be part of a Euro/Asia Union which will naturally involve the "Asia" bit becoming a lot more like the "Euro" bit.

Aren't those continents the wrong way round there?

When one discusses states with 70-120 million people joining the EU isn't the [expected/hoped for] result more of a merger, with all that may imply?

There's been a good bit of indigestion after the enlargement of the EU to the East and that involved far less people with more money who are not as different & who wanted to join alot more than the Turks do.