servicing an alarm

mattym

I want to get my alarm serviced as its been installed about 5 years. Can anyone tell me what the service will check for and a rough idea of cost. Will it be as straight forward as doing a walk test on the zones??

fred funk }{

A walk test will only tell if the detectors are connected to the system they wont tell what condition they're in. A proper service should include a test of all the circuits with a meter, you should insist on this method.
They should also test the bells, battery, tampers, monitoring, clean smoke detectors if any and make sure panic buttons are functioning properly.
Expect to pay between 70 to 100 euro.

KoolKid

+1
Are you having problems with it mattym?
If its an Astec system the battery could do with changing as well.

fishdog

mattym:

Will it be as straight forward as doing a walk test on the zones??

Often, but it should be more. I take it your alarm is not connected to a monitoring station, because it would be serviced more than once every 5 years if it was. You might consider doing it youself then. It is not that hard.
Start with the simple walk test and visual inspection of each sensor.

Koolkid:

If its an Astec system the battery could do with changing as well.

+ 1. They way to do that and save yourself some money is explained here for most Astec (63DV, 43DV, 43D, 63D) alarms. The newer (Fusion) panel is far easier and takes a larger battery. Expect to pay €10ish for a battery from a wholesaler.

A proper service should include a test of all the circuits with a meter, you should insist on this method.

+ 1. It should be normal practice.
It simply entails measuring the resistance of each zone with an ohm meter. The resistance should be logged so that it can be seen if the resistance of a zone is creeping up. This may lead to false alarms if not dealt with.

I would normally short out the end of line resistor so that the ohm meter can be used on a lower range to ensure a more accutare reading of the circuit resistance.

clean smoke detectors

+ 1. Often overlooked.
The proper operation of smoke detectors can be tested with a special spray.

Expect to pay between 70 to 100 euro.

As Fredfunk illustrates, it pays to shop around. Service contract prices are vary a lot. Like every other industry, the recession has caused prices to drop.

KoolKid

fishdog wrote: »

mattym:
Often, but it should be more.

Often??? A proper service would never be just that.
As fred funk said each sensor on each zone need to be checked to ensure the correct resistence,

fishdog wrote: »

simple walk test and visual inspection of each sensor.

Bad advice! This will tell you nothing about the state of any device.

Before undertaking this yourself check your home insurance policy.
Does your policy state you have an alarm fitted?
The standard recognised by insurance comapnies is EN50131
For your system to maintain that standard it must be serviced & maintained by a licenced company.
In the event of a claim, your insurance company can claim as your system does not conform to the relevant standard your policy is null & void.
I think people should be very carful in taking advice from people not licenced to work in the industry & not making you aware of the consequences of "just do it yourself" advice.
If you are looking for the system serviced after 5 years what problems are you having? if you are having problems you are probobly going to need something replaced & possibly the battery if its an Astec system.
If you feel happy doing it yourself ,by all means do so. If so my advice would be to inform your insurance company that you do not have an alarm system fitted. For the small discounts you recieve it is not worth the risk.

fishdog

Koolkid, read my post before you comment on it. As per normal we agree on most things, except for the things that may make you money. I said a service should "Start with the simple walk test and visual inspection of each sensor". This is not "bad advice". It is simply a starting point, not an entire service.

Often??? A proper service would never be just that.

+1 Koolkid. If you read my post you will see that I have stated that.

As fred funk said each sensor on each zone need to be checked to ensure the correct resistence,

+1 Koolkid. If you read my post you will see that I explaind this procedure to some extent.

Before undertaking this yourself check your home insurance policy.
Does your policy state you have an alarm fitted?

Exactly. If so remove this from the policy staright away! It is not worth it. If you forget to set your alarm the policy will be null and void. The small discount offered is far less than the expensive monitoring and maintenance contract you will be made pay!

my advice would be to inform your insurance company that you do not have an alarm system fitted.

+ 1

This is a DIY forum! It will not always be revenue generating for people that always advise to get "professionals".

KoolKid

fishdog wrote: »

This is a DIY forum!

I thought this was Electrical forum
Is the DIY Forum not here ??
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=116

fishdog wrote: »

It will not always be revenue generating for people that always advise to get "professionals".

I am not trying to generate revenue, I do not come here pimping my company.
I am giving people professional advice.I am not charging for that advice.
If I went onto some of your posts re electrical & advised people who have a problem with a RCD, ahh open the board & do it yourself, without informing them of the risks, I am sure you would be quick enough to correct me.

You come on here and give DIY advice , thats fine. But don't get upset when a professional engineer offers better advice.

fishdog

Koolkid:

I think people should be very carful in taking advice from people not licenced to work in the industry

Personally I would suggest exactly the opposite.

Independent advice from experienced qualified people that have no financial interest in the area they are giving advice in makes much more sense.

Impartial advice tends to be more accurate and balanced.

You come on here and give DIY advice , thats fine

Hold that thought.

KoolKid

fishdog wrote:

Personally I would suggest exactly the opposite.

Independent advice from experienced qualified people that have no financial interest in the area they are giving advice in makes much more sense.

And what financial interest would I have here..

fishdog wrote: »

Impartial advice tends to be more accurate

But not in your case here is just a few examples....

fishdog wrote:

Tell your electrician it can be done in the programming

Here you are advising someone to break the law & use an unlicenced installer

fishdog wrote:

To fix it yourself (and save some money):
If you have cut a red wire: strip back the insulation about 20mm either side of the cut. Twist the strands together tightly. Put insulation tape over the join to ensure that id does not short with anything.
If you have cut any other wire repeat the process described above until all wires are fixed.

Here you advise someone to use tape joins on an alarm. Something I would sack an apprentice for doing. Something everyone knows is one of the main causes of problems with alarms


And here you advise someone making a connection to a fuse board

fishdog wrote:

connection is not much harder than connecting a standard plug.

Except for the fact that a plug is not near live cables when you are wiring it..:eek:


I have already stated I am not giving advice here for financial gain.
I am giving free professional advice as someone with many years experience working in the industry. Yet for some reason unknown to us all you have a big chip on your shoulder with Alarm engineers & the PSA.
Please lets all help the people who post looking for advice.
After all you don't see me hijacking everything you post regarding electrical.
I have no problem who posts here but if they are offering bad advice I will correct it.

fishdog

And what financial interest would I have here..

You mean apart from the fact that you claim to install alarms for a living???

Here you are advising someone to break the law & use an unlicenced installer

I can advise people about alarms as much as I want, there is no law against that. I have been called on many times to do this as recently as last week I was advising a PSA installer.

Originally Posted by fishdog
connection is not much harder than connecting a standard plug.

Except for the fact that a plug is not near live cables when you are wiring it..

Alarm panels do not have to be worked with mains connected live as you incorrectly suggest above.

I have already stated I am not giving advice here for financial gain.

Fair enough. Therefore you have to admit it is possible that some solutions offered may be for the OP to tackle problems themselves, others may not.

After all you don't see me hijacking everything you post regarding electrical.

Feel free to comment, ask, express your view, just try not to get personal. It is possible to disagree an technical matters without getting worked up. I may disagree with you on a few limited areas but I am honest enough to admit that I agree with you on many. For example we both seem to see the need to go beyond EN50131 by installing working bellboxes (in most cases). Neither of us are fans of the Eircom PhoneWatch system and both of us are keen on the Astec systems!

Here you advise someone to use tape joins on an alarm

This is taking a remark out of context. If you read the post fully you will clearly see that this was suggested as a temporary measure only. A superior solution was also detailed in the same post.

I have no problem who posts here but if they are offering bad advice I will correct it.

Ditto

KoolKid

fishdog wrote: »

You mean apart from the fact that you claim to install alarms for a living???

I don't claim to I do!!
We are a licenced company with 3 full time engineers,Anyway how does that affect my input here exactly.
I do not use this site to pimp for business I give free professional advice

fishdog wrote: »

I can advise people about alarms as much as I want, there is no law against that.

Unfortunatly not. But as I have demonstrated, by just a few examples, your advice is poor & in some cases dangerous.. Thank god there are some professionals here to clarify your dangerous input.

fishdog wrote: »

Alarm panels do not have to be worked with mains connected live as you incorrectly suggest above.

Your advice there was for someone connecting mains to a new install from the consumer unit to the alarm.

fishdog wrote: »

it is possible that some solutions offered may be for the OP to tackle problems themselves, others may not.

Yes ofcourse it is & in a lot of cases that is what I advise.
In some cases here I have called to members here & charged for materials. only.

fishdog wrote: »

This is taking a remark out of context. If you read the post fully you will clearly see that this was suggested as a temporary measure only. A superior solution was also detailed in the same post.

Only after you were corrected on it. The same way as in this thread you only posted about insurance risks after I pointed it out to you.
TBH you really should get that chip on your shoulder looked at and let us post advice in peace!

fishdog

Fishdog:

Independent advice from experienced qualified people that have no financial interest in the area they are giving advice in makes much more sense.

Koolkid:

And what financial interest would I have here..

Fishdog:

You mean apart from the fact that you claim to install alarms for a living???

Koolkid:

I don't claim to I do!!

That financial interest!


You cant have your cake and eat it, if you say you are an “alarm engineer” then the same reasoning would mean that I am too.

In addition to this I have some recognised electrical qualifications and many years of experience with many electrical systems including alarms so I am more than qualified to comment and advise.

I have nothing more to say. Please try to stick to the topic.

KoolKid

fishdog wrote: »

Fishdog:

Koolkid:

Fishdog:

Koolkid:
That financial interest!

And what financial gain do I get from posting here..

fishdog wrote: »

so I am more than qualified to comment and advise.

My examples would seem to suggest otherwise.

fishdog wrote: »

Please try to stick to the topic.

LOL 3 words pot Kettle & Black

fishdog

If you insist on going off topic then why not comment on this:

I may disagree with you on a few limited areas but I am honest enough to admit that I agree with you on many. For example we both seem to see the need to go beyond EN50131 by installing working bellboxes (in most cases). Neither of us are fans of the Eircom PhoneWatch system and both of us are keen on the Astec systems!

or this:

You cant have your cake and eat it, if you say you are an “alarm engineer” then the same reasoning would mean that I am too.

:D

KoolKid

You mean like they way you choose to ignore the examples I posted of your bad advice?
What happened to

I have nothing more to say

I will cocede to you being more qualified at going off topic.

fishdog

I will take that as a 100% agreement.
Now let's draw a line and move on.

bromley52

Our house alarm has started to go off when the front door is opened even thought the alarm has not been set. This happens about twice a week. Normally if the alarm has been set(all zones or not), opening the front door gives a 30sec warning to deactivate. It should never cause an immediate activation of the alarm.
Does anyone know if a service will slove this or have I a bigger problem?

KoolKid

There is a tamper fault on the front door device.
What make of alarm do you have.
With Astec it could be the sensor or contact is not sitting 100% on the base.
Also check the wiring into the device.
What is showing on the keypad after you disarm the syatem after one of these activations.?

screwlox

There is high resistance on the cable...
A tenner says that cable is feeding something else as well - the keypad maybe??

Get your alarm company to switch OFF the gross attack & Pulse Count on that zone - it shouldn't be on in the first place, if its only a contact - but 99% of alarm installers in this country don't actually do that and don't understand why they must switch it off.

KoolKid

screwlox wrote: »

There is high resistance on the cable...


Get your alarm company to switch OFF the gross attack & Pulse Count on that zone -.

While they are there would you not get them to find the cause of the high resistence as well?

fred funk }{

screwlox wrote: »

There is high resistance on the cable...
A tenner says that cable is feeding something else as well - the keypad maybe??

Get your alarm company to switch OFF the gross attack & Pulse Count on that zone - it shouldn't be on in the first place, if its only a contact - but 99% of alarm installers in this country don't actually do that and don't understand why they must switch it off.

Switching off the gross and pulse is really only hiding the fault. If a zone has no faults on the line the gross & pulse doesn't matter. I would find the fault as a priority.

Jnealon

Or get out the capacitors

screwlox

Most lazy installers use the spare 'pair' on the keypad cable to wire the front door contact, dual-end-of-line.

There are certain 'data pulses' etc. to the keypad, which can bleed-over onto the other pairs. This is most obvious when a guy tries to run the phoneline in the keypad spare pair - the telephone line deteriorates and just amplifies the pulses. Anyone who has experienced this before, will understand what I'm talking about.

Such in itself, can induce high resistance on the spare pair - without the cable actually being faulty. Therefore, by removing the 'gross attack', you are effectively solving the problem...

KoolKid

Solving the problem would be removing the powered devices from the cable.

screwlox

Correct, but then you have another problem - no cable for the keypad....:rolleyes:

KoolKid

screwlox wrote: »

Correct, but then you have another problem - no cable for the keypad....:rolleyes:

Now ! Thats being lazy:D