Ignoring the 2 year 33bhp restrcition?

murphaph

To those who keep repeating that he insurance company will examine the bike (and I agree they'll give it the once over no question), what do you think they'll do by way of examination because looking in the carbs and finding no washers or looking at the ECU and realising it's a full power one means precisely.....nothing! It does NOT prove the bike was running at ANY particular power. Even going by the (shoddily written) law, nowhere does it say bikes must be restricted-it just says bikes must be under 25kW or 0.16kW/kg. That's it. That's all the law says. The insurance company would have to PROVE that the bike exceeded BOTH of those conditions at the moment of impact. The kg in the 0.16kW/kg part has NEVER been specified in law. You can perfectly reasonably add your own weight and a full tank of petrol and an engine full of oil and any luggage you might have been carrying to end up with a very heavy laden bike. Then do your division and remembering few if any stock bikes actually deliver the manufacturers stated horsepower for very long, you'll often get a 'fast' bike under the 0.16kW/kg figure and once it is, it's legal aon a restricted licence.

Ask youself why you've never heard in biking circles of either the cops or the insurance companies making a big deal in this area. It's because the know the law is far from comprehensive. In the UK for example I believe you MUST have a restriction certificate and the dry weight and manufacturers stated horsepower are taken as binding according to their implementation of the directive. The Dail just made a balls of it.

Quint

murphaph wrote: »

To those who keep repeating that he insurance company will examine the bike (and I agree they'll give it the once over no question), what do you think they'll do by way of examination because looking in the carbs and finding no washers or looking at the ECU and realising it's a full power one means precisely.....nothing! It does NOT prove the bike was running at ANY particular power. Even going by the (shoddily written) law, nowhere does it say bikes must be restricted-it just says bikes must be under 25kW or 0.16kW/kg. That's it. That's all the law says. The insurance company would have to PROVE that the bike exceeded BOTH of those conditions at the moment of impact. The kg in the 0.16kW/kg part has NEVER been specified in law. You can perfectly reasonably add your own weight and a full tank of petrol and an engine full of oil and any luggage you might have been carrying to end up with a very heavy laden bike. Then do your division and remembering few if any stock bikes actually deliver the manufacturers stated horsepower for very long, you'll often get a 'fast' bike under the 0.16kW/kg figure and once it is, it's legal aon a restricted licence.

Ask youself why you've never heard in biking circles of either the cops or the insurance companies making a big deal in this area. It's because the know the law is far from comprehensive. In the UK for example I believe you MUST have a restriction certificate and the dry weight and manufacturers stated horsepower are taken as binding according to their implementation of the directive. The Dail just made a balls of it.

I agree with all that. Has anyone heard of anyone getting done for it? Not me. Never saw it come uo on biker.ie either.

EvilMonkey

murphaph wrote: »

To those who keep repeating that he insurance company will examine the bike (and I agree they'll give it the once over no question), what do you think they'll do by way of examination because looking in the carbs and finding no washers or looking at the ECU and realising it's a full power one means precisely.....nothing! It does NOT prove the bike was running at ANY particular power. Even going by the (shoddily written) law, nowhere does it say bikes must be restricted-it just says bikes must be under 25kW or 0.16kW/kg. That's it. That's all the law says. The insurance company would have to PROVE that the bike exceeded BOTH of those conditions at the moment of impact. The kg in the 0.16kW/kg part has NEVER been specified in law. You can perfectly reasonably add your own weight and a full tank of petrol and an engine full of oil and any luggage you might have been carrying to end up with a very heavy laden bike. Then do your division and remembering few if any stock bikes actually deliver the manufacturers stated horsepower for very long, you'll often get a 'fast' bike under the 0.16kW/kg figure and once it is, it's legal aon a restricted licence.

Ask youself why you've never heard in biking circles of either the cops or the insurance companies making a big deal in this area. It's because the know the law is far from comprehensive. In the UK for example I believe you MUST have a restriction certificate and the dry weight and manufacturers stated horsepower are taken as binding according to their implementation of the directive. The Dail just made a balls of it.

If it ever challenged by an insurance company which is unlikely because they haven't a clue but is possible. They will ask for a cert they wont go looking for restrictions, the weight and power is stated in the vehicle registration document these are the figures they will use, unless you can provide a restriction cert. The restrictor isn't the important bit its the piece of paper that says its fitted. The same way the guards can ask you to produce proof of restriction at a station, they dont ask to see the restrictor.

jackhammer

In relation to the powers that be, here's what I've heard. The gardai have the power to seize an unrestricted bike under Section 41 of the Road Traffic Act as you're deemed to be driving without a licence.

In terms of determining whether a bike is restricted or not, 90% of the time, a twist of the throttle would answer that.

Also, it's up to the bike owner to prove it's restricted, not the garda.

But as previous posters have said, I've also not heard of anyone getting done for it.

Quint

Is there an official restriction cert? I've never seen or heard of these. You don't bring your restricted bike along to a dyno to make sure it's properly restricted. Doesn't the bike shop just give you a letter saying it's restricted?

Bandit883

Never restricted bike and neither did buddies, one of them crashed 1 night and the cops hauled it off to get tested for restricter, court case pending:mad:

Idleater

Quint wrote: »

Is there an official restriction cert? I've never seen or heard of these. You don't bring your restricted bike along to a dyno to make sure it's properly restricted. Doesn't the bike shop just give you a letter saying it's restricted?

I had one on my old SV650.

It was a factory restricted model which means that the ECU serial number and engine + frame numbers are registered with the manufacturer and can be looked up and verified.

Essentially the Vehicle Registration Cert showed 25kw under power.

Factory restricted bikes also benefit from a significantly reduced insurance premium.

Perhaps people are confusing factory and dealer restricted bikes? It is very easy for an insurance company to verify whether the numbers match if they choose to inspect a vehicle. It is also available for any insurance company involved in an incident to verify the evidence if they suspect something.

I have never heard of anything ever happening with this though either, I just don't see the big deal in driving a restricted bike for 2 years. Of course you can get away with it, like so many things in this country.

Zascar

Bandit883 wrote: »

Never restricted bike and neither did buddies, one of them crashed 1 night and the cops hauled it off to get tested for restricter, court case pending:mad:

Interesting. Can you tell us more?

Maybe the posters above can give some advice - if they say it will not stand up in court - then we should soon be able to prove that!

Del2005

murphaph wrote: »

To those who keep repeating that he insurance company will examine the bike (and I agree they'll give it the once over no question), what do you think they'll do by way of examination because looking in the carbs and finding no washers or looking at the ECU and realising it's a full power one means precisely.....nothing! It does NOT prove the bike was running at ANY particular power. Even going by the (shoddily written) law, nowhere does it say bikes must be restricted-it just says bikes must be under 25kW or 0.16kW/kg. That's it. That's all the law says. The insurance company would have to PROVE that the bike exceeded BOTH of those conditions at the moment of impact. The kg in the 0.16kW/kg part has NEVER been specified in law. You can perfectly reasonably add your own weight and a full tank of petrol and an engine full of oil and any luggage you might have been carrying to end up with a very heavy laden bike. Then do your division and remembering few if any stock bikes actually deliver the manufacturers stated horsepower for very long, you'll often get a 'fast' bike under the 0.16kW/kg figure and once it is, it's legal aon a restricted licence.

Ask youself why you've never heard in biking circles of either the cops or the insurance companies making a big deal in this area. It's because the know the law is far from comprehensive. In the UK for example I believe you MUST have a restriction certificate and the dry weight and manufacturers stated horsepower are taken as binding according to their implementation of the directive. The Dail just made a balls of it.

While I agree with most of what you say here. I think you are confusing criminal and civil law. When you take out insurance you sign a legal document saying that everything is true to the best of your knowledge, if you then drive outside the terms of your licence your insurance can become void. It's not up to the insurance company to prove that you where illegal, it's up to you to prove that you are legal as you have signed a document saying that you are legally allowed to ride with a full licence. How you do that if the bike is written off is difficult. But because it'll be a civil case there is no need for the insurance company to pay out if you can't prove you where legal.

In saying all that. I've never heard of anyone getting done for riding without restriction, or having their insurance voided after an accident. But with the way the world economy is going I can see insurnace companies looking for easy ways out of paying claims at some point and riding outside the terms of your licence is an easy way to not pay out.

I don't want to be the person who has to go to court to prove that the 0.16kw/kg includes me, the bike full of fuel and oil and a topbox full of beers for a weekend away. And if I do prove it is, then I can't drive it home.

Quint

nereid wrote: »

I had one on my old SV650.

It was a factory restricted model which means that the ECU serial number and engine + frame numbers are registered with the manufacturer and can be looked up and verified.

Essentially the Vehicle Registration Cert showed 25kw under power.

Factory restricted bikes also benefit from a significantly reduced insurance premium.

Perhaps people are confusing factory and dealer restricted bikes? It is very easy for an insurance company to verify whether the numbers match if they choose to inspect a vehicle. It is also available for any insurance company involved in an incident to verify the evidence if they suspect something.

I have never heard of anything ever happening with this though either, I just don't see the big deal in driving a restricted bike for 2 years. Of course you can get away with it, like so many things in this country.

Yeah, I'm talking about dealer restriction. Know anything about that? It's legal to get your bike dealer restricted, but the bike isn't tested. All the cert is, is a letter from the dealer as far as I know.

Limerick Bandit

jackhammer wrote: »

In terms of determining whether a bike is restricted or not, 90% of the time, a twist of the throttle would answer that.

.

No it wont

Limerick Bandit

Quint wrote: »

Yeah, I'm talking about dealer restriction. Know anything about that? It's legal to get your bike dealer restricted, but the bike isn't tested. All the cert is, is a letter from the dealer as far as I know.

its just a piece of paper saying the mechanic restricted it on a particular date and is worth nothing

Zascar

Only a few of the bikes would be throttle restricted. The others have rings in the carbs I believe.

Del2005

Limerick Bandit wrote: »

its just a piece of paper saying the mechanic restricted it on a particular date and is worth nothing

Like the NCT is a piece of paper that says your car was safe on a certain day. It's still legal for 2 years even if you smack a kerb on the way out and have the car running sideways.

A shop supplied cert is worth while if you get stopped and have to prove to a Garda that you are legally allowed to ride, what you do with the spare parts after you clean your carbs is up to you!

Zascar

When I bought my bike I brought it to Ducai Dublin to get a throttle restrictor sitted on it.

All I got was a receipt for the work done mentioning fitting a restrictor. The guy said that was enough but if I wanted more they could probably do up a letter for me. I never got it but might ask just in case...

Quint

Zascar wrote: »

Only a few of the bikes would be throttle restricted. The others have rings in the carbs I believe.

What abour fuel injected bikes? Do they have to be factory restricted or can the dealer do it?
I heard that some factory restricted bikes can be expensive to de-restrict

Zascar

When I bought my bike I brought it to Ducati Dublin to get a throttle restrictor fitted on it.

All I got was a receipt for the work done mentioning fitting a restrictor. The guy said that was enough but if I wanted more they could probably do up a letter for me. I never got it but might ask just in case...

Factory restricted bikes can be expensive to de-restrict. Its not worth it, only one company recognise factory restriction. Do what I did and get a Grade 2 Certificate and insurance becomes way cheaper

murphaph

EvilMonkey wrote: »

They will ask for a cert they wont go looking for restrictions

Nowhere in my contract with my insurance company does it say I have to hold a certificate of restriction if I'm riding on a restricted licence.

EvilMonkey wrote: »

the weight and power is stated in the vehicle registration document

Nope. Not always. I imported 2 bikes from the UK and both contain no information (actually one says 99999999.999999999kW but it doesn't feel that quick to me ;-) the other is blank ). In any case the LAW doesn't explicitly state that the manufacturer's given output shall be taken (it does in UK law though-see how shoddy the dail implementation is?)

EvilMonkey wrote: »

these are the figures they will use

See above. They can't use figures unless the law says they are the figures to use and the LAW doesn't say that!

EvilMonkey wrote: »

unless you can provide a restriction cert.

A meaningless piece of paper in this context.

EvilMonkey wrote: »

The restrictor isn't the important bit its the piece of paper that says its fitted.

Only if you are seeking a reduced premium for a FACTORY restriction-no company gives reductions for deale restrictions.

EvilMonkey wrote: »

The same way the guards can ask you to produce proof of restriction at a station, they dont ask to see the restrictor.

Show me, please show me the legislation that allows a Garda to ask you for this cert! It doesn't exist! Guards can (illegaly) ask all they like but there's no compulsion on you to have it, nevermind produce it.

Insurance companies can't walk away. They know the law is shoddy themselves. It's like the old provisional driver hitting another whilst driving alone-the company must pay out. They can then sue you for the loss but rarely do and in this case, won't because the law allows you to ride bikes outside the scope of the directive. EU directives are NOT laws.

Idleater

Quint wrote: »

What abour fuel injected bikes? Do they have to be factory restricted or can the dealer do it?
I heard that some factory restricted bikes can be expensive to de-restrict

My SV was ECU restricted.

Bought a S/H full power ecu and it was a 10 minute un-click click job to swap between them.

Still have the full power ECU lying around because I sold it restricted.

The restricted Gixxer ecu is more expensive I believe, as is the 636. To de-restrict via an eg suzuki main dealer it would have cost me €600 odd for the sv for a new ecu, but they are £50 on fleabay.

EvilMonkey

murphaph wrote: »

Nowhere in my contract with my insurance company does it say I have to hold a certificate of restriction if I'm riding on a restricted licence.

It says you must have a valid licence, if you are on restricted licence driving unrestricted you dont have a valid licence.

murphaph wrote: »

Nope. Not always. I imported 2 bikes from the UK and both contain no information (actually one says 99999999.999999999kW but it doesn't feel that quick to me ;-) the other is blank ). In any case the LAW doesn't explicitly state that the manufacturer's given output shall be taken (it does in UK law though-see how shoddy the dail implementation is?)

See above. They can't use figures unless the law says they are the figures to use and the LAW doesn't say that!

It can be obtained from the manufacture, the law doesn't need to say this the Irish law is almost identical to the UK law.

murphaph wrote: »

A meaningless piece of paper in this context.

@Limerick Bandit It should contain reg no, engine no chaise no, your name and address and name and address of who fitted and signed by the person that fitted it.
My driver licence is just a piece of paper too!

murphaph wrote: »

Only if you are seeking a reduced premium for a FACTORY restriction-no company gives reductions for deale restrictions.

Only 1 insurance company gives a discount and no cert is required for factory restricted bikes, its on the vehicle registration document and chaise no.

murphaph wrote: »

Show me, please show me the legislation that allows a Garda to ask you for this cert! It doesn't exist! Guards can (illegaly) ask all they like but there's no compulsion on you to have it, nevermind produce it.

Too lazy to look, i dont think its there. :mad:

murphaph wrote: »

Insurance companies can't walk away. They know the law is shoddy themselves. It's like the old provisional driver hitting another whilst driving alone-the company must pay out. They can then sue you for the loss but rarely do and in this case, won't because the law allows you to ride bikes outside the scope of the directive. EU directives are NOT laws.

They cant walk away because under European law they must pay out on 3rd party clams it is a law this is why Hibernian pulled out to many provisionals carrying pillions were having accidents(moped scams) and they had to pay, They can however issue civil proceedings against you to get their money back.(they dont because its not worth their while, in most cases they wont be able to recover the cost of the claim)

Look I'm not saying you wont get away with it chances are you will(i do ), just be aware of the consequences you could be letting yourself in for.

Limerick Bandit

Del2005 wrote: »

A shop supplied cert is worth while if you get stopped and have to prove to a Garda that you are legally allowed to ride, what you do with the spare parts after you clean your carbs is up to you!

Thats about all its good for (if you have to show it to a Garda)

Limerick Bandit

Quint wrote: »

What abour fuel injected bikes? Do they have to be factory restricted or can the dealer do it?
I heard that some factory restricted bikes can be expensive to de-restrict

fuel injected bikes would (as far as i know)would be restricted through the cdi
A cdi off a crashed bike would de-restrict it and only cost a couple of hundred quid

Limerick Bandit

Zascar wrote: »

Factory restricted bikes can be expensive to de-restrict. Its not worth it, only one company recognise factory restriction. Do what I did and get a Grade 2 Certificate and insurance becomes way cheaper

I couldnt think of a bike that couldnt be de-restricted for 200 quid

Limerick Bandit

murphaph wrote: »

Nowhere in my contract with my insurance company does it say I have to hold a certificate of restriction if I'm riding on a restricted licence.

No but you must hold a driving license and if the bike is not restricted then you don’t have a license for it

Limerick Bandit

EvilMonkey wrote: »

@Limerick Bandit It should contain reg no, engine no chaise no, your name and address and name and address of who fitted and signed by the person that fitted it.
My driver licence is just a piece of paper too!

Your drivers license is an official document, any mechanic can issue these certs.

EvilMonkey

Limerick Bandit wrote: »

Your drivers license is an official document, any mechanic can issue these certs.

Fair enough the driver licence is a bad example.
Thats exactly why insurance companies wont give a discount for them, that doesn't mean there worthless if the mechanic has signed it.

jmck87

Limerick Bandit wrote: »

fuel injected bikes would (as far as i know)would be restricted through the cdi
A cdi off a crashed bike would de-restrict it and only cost a couple of hundred quid

Limerick Bandit wrote: »

I couldnt think of a bike that couldnt be de-restricted for 200 quid

Tis expensive to get a new cdi for a bike that has immobilser...like the Honda HISS systems or the suzukis...the key has to be matched to the ecu....so unless you find a crashed one that has the key with it you could be talking 5-600 quid easily

On the topic....

The law in my humble opinion is too badly written and very vague.

As mentioned by others, the weight for the power-to-weight ratio is not defined at all....dry weight? With fuel? With luggage?

As for the 'power'.....factory power when the engine is on an engine stand? Power at the back wheel? Power as over-rated by the manufacturer? Power when the engine is brand new and run on Japanese high octane fuel?

Would be very suprised to see someone get done in court for no restriciton....but wouldnt wanna be the one to test the waters challenging it....

TBi

Well i'm glad i found this thread.

Basically i'm looking for advice.

I purchased a Honda CBF600. Honda are sending down a kit to factory restrict it. Basically they are sending down a new ECU or whatever they call it to the garage. The problem is that I (and the garage) have been waiting for this kit for two weeks. It's supposed to be here Monday and installed Tuesday but i've been told that for the last 2 weeks...

However my insurance company (adelaide) says they aren't taking the restriction into account so i'm not getting cheaper insurance for having it factory restricted. My only bonus is that it might be easier to sell the bike factory restricted.

I've been on to Cawleys in Cork and they said they can Dyno test it and put a throttle stop on it which would make me legal and i don't have to wait any more, but will cost me 160 yo yo's. Plus i can remove it after the 2 year restriction.

I don't know what to do.

How does a throttle stop affect the bike compared to a standard or factory restriction kit?

EvilMonkey

TBi wrote: »

Well i'm glad i found this thread.

Basically i'm looking for advice.

I purchased a Honda CBF600. Honda are sending down a kit to factory restrict it. Basically they are sending down a new ECU or whatever they call it to the garage. The problem is that I (and the garage) have been waiting for this kit for two weeks. It's supposed to be here Monday and installed Tuesday but i've been told that for the last 2 weeks...

However my insurance company (adelaide) says they aren't taking the restriction into account so i'm not getting cheaper insurance for having it factory restricted. My only bonus is that it might be easier to sell the bike factory restricted.

I've been on to Cawleys in Cork and they said they can Dyno test it and put a throttle stop on it which would make me legal and i don't have to wait any more, but will cost me 160 yo yo's. Plus i can remove it after the 2 year restriction.

I don't know what to do.

How does a throttle stop affect the bike compared to a standard or factory restriction kit?

First of all it wont be factory restricted, Factory restricted means its restricted at the factory, any thing fitted after it leaves the production line is aftermarket.
If you want to be legal(restricted) you could try these www.fiinternational.com/ i dont know if you can order one yourself or get your dealer to order one. I would imagine the ecu will be expensive.

TBi

EvilMonkey wrote: »

First of all it wont be factory restricted, Factory restricted means its restricted at the factory, any thing fitted after it leaves the production line is aftermarket.
If you want to be legal you could try these www.fiinternational.com/ i dont know if you can order one yourself or get your dealer to order one. I would imagine the ecu will be expensive.

From everything i read a dyno read out of the bike is as legal as a fi international cert.

The restriction they are offering is free and from honda. It's basically going to use all the parts honda would use to make it factory restricted, they'll then send back the un-restricted parts and honda will certify the bike as factory restricted. It's a special deal they are doing because there are no factory restricted CBF's left in Ireland/UK.

EDIT: It'll cost the same to de-restrict as a standard from the factory restricted bike.