Ignoring the 2 year 33bhp restrcition?

jmck87

TBi wrote: »

From everything i read a dyno read out of the bike is as legal as a fi international cert.

The restriction they are offering is free and from honda. It's basically going to use all the parts honda would use to make it factory restricted, they'll then send back the un-restricted parts and honda will certify the bike as factory restricted. It's a special deal they are doing because there are no factory restricted CBF's left in Ireland/UK.

EDIT: It'll cost the same to de-restrict as a standard from the factory restricted bike.

No point paying more for the official Honda kit if your insurance wont go down in my opinion. Would be absolutely stunned if a judge did you for no licence and you with a dyno report!

TBi

jmck87 wrote: »

No point paying more for the official Honda kit if your insurance wont go down in my opinion. Would be absolutely stunned if a judge did you for no licence and you with a dyno report!

Honda kit will cost me nothing but time (still waiting for the damn thing). The Dyno + throttle stop will cost me €160 or so.

However come time to de-restrict it'll be cheaper to take the throttle stop out but if i want to sell i'll make more on the factory restricted model.

EvilMonkey

TBi wrote: »

From everything i read a dyno read out of the bike is as legal as a fi international cert.

I didn't mean to say the Dyno wouldn't be legal. Go with whichever one is cheaper to you i didnt check the prices.

TBi wrote: »

The restriction they are offering is free and from honda. It's basically going to use all the parts honda would use to make it factory restricted, they'll then send back the un-restricted parts and honda will certify the bike as factory restricted. It's a special deal they are doing because there are no factory restricted CBF's left in Ireland/UK.

EDIT: It'll cost the same to de-restrict as a standard from the factory restricted bike.

Sounds strange, how can they change the frame number to say its from a restricted batch?
Sounds to me like someone would say mass to get a sale, If it dose happen try and keep the original parts so you can just switch it back. You can sell it as either.

TBi

EvilMonkey wrote: »

Go with whichever one is cheaper to you i didnt check the prices.

Cheapest is waiting but i'm sick of waiting. Ordered the bike 3 weeks ago.

EvilMonkey wrote: »

Sounds strange, how can they change the frame number to say its from a restricted batch?
Sounds to me like someone would say mass to get a sale, If it dose happen try and keep the original parts so you can just switch it back. You can sell it as either.

I have no idea what they are doing but apparantly it will be honda approved. They said i can't keep the original parts, that's why honda will approve it.

EvilMonkey

I presume its a new bike. You could try and put pressure on whoever you bought the bike off to fit something cheap/free since you did just buy a new bike off him and their isn't much moving. Tell him you dont feel comfortable without it cant wait any longer etc... but if he has already has your money this will be harder to negotiate.

TBi

They've offered some extra free gear to make up for the wait (about 150 worth). Miffed at them but feel bad if it's not their fault. Think i might just go get the bike and restrict it myself. Want to enjoy it this weekend!

Was thinking about getting that Richa Spirit jacket. But can't find any reviews of the damn thing. Uses the same breathable fabric as the new BMW streetguard.

murphaph

EvilMonkey wrote: »

It says you must have a valid licence, if you are on restricted licence driving unrestricted you dont have a valid licence.

But that's wrong! You don't have to ride a restricted bike just becase you hold a restricted licence-for a start you could be riding a Honda Cub 90 or something. Anyway, your bike's actual power (not manufacturer's stated power) divided by your bike's gross laden weight (not design gross vehicle weight) at time of accident is a fair figure to use for the power to weight ratio (which must be under 0.16kg/kW). So long as you do the math and are happy that your bike is under this with those inputs, you're good to go because the law must be explicit in such matters, and it is not explicit at all.

The law talks about "weight" (not even mass, which would be the correct term!) and "power". It does not specify what weight or power figures to use so you can use the ones most advantageous to you. We use an adversarial legal system. Once your barrister argues your case the judge will have to side with him and then maybe send the law for a judicial review so as to have it amended in the Dail (eventually). He can't just find you guilty because in the UK and everywhere else they have implemented the 2nd directive correctly. The judge won't be looking at little pictograms on your driving licence-he will look coldly at the law in front of him and make his decision based on that. People "get off" on much smaller technicalities (particularly road traffic offences) than this. This isn't even a technicality, it's just not illegal to ride some bikes here on a restricted licence that are illegal to ride in other EU jurisdictions.

EvilMonkey wrote: »

It can be obtained from the manufacture, the law doesn't need to say this the Irish law is almost identical to the UK law.

It's not. The UK law specifies the dgvw and manufacturers' rated HP as legally binding for the purpose of the power to weight calculation. Irish law does not and that's why it falls down and is unenforcable.

EvilMonkey wrote: »

My driver licence is just a piece of paper too!

Your licence is backed up by a legal requirement to hold one. There's no requirement to hold a certificate of restriction. The document does not exist in law.

EvilMonkey wrote: »

Look I'm not saying you wont get away with it chances are you will(i do ), just be aware of the consequences you could be letting yourself in for.

I personally am out of the restriction a while now but I rode unrestricted on a TDM 850 and a VFR750 and I was confident and remain confident that I broke no law, either criminal or civil (contract) law with my insurance company.

TBi

murphaph wrote: »

But that's wrong! You don't have to ride a restricted bike just becase you hold a restricted licence-for a start you could be riding a Honda Cub 90 or something. Anyway, your bike's actual power (not manufacturer's stated power) divided by your bike's gross laden weight (not design gross vehicle weight) at time of accident is a fair figure to use for the power to weight ratio (which must be under 0.16kg/kW). So long as you do the math and are happy that your bike is under this with those inputs, you're good to go because the law must be explicit in such matters, and it is not explicit at all.

The only problem with this argument is that the bike has to satisfy both conditions.

It states

NOT X OR Y

not just

X OR Y

murphaph

TBi wrote: »

The only problem with this argument is that the bike has to satisfy both conditions.

It states

NOT X OR Y

not just

X OR Y

This is incorrect. It states the bike must conform to x or y. The actual wording is "bike is restricted to x or y". That means once either condition is met you're fine. The "not" argument has come up before but it isn't telling you it can't be one or the other, it's telling you it must be one or the other.

TBi

Made a mistake there so i read it again.

It says

(NOT X) OR (NOT Y)

By pure boolean logic (if they are that smart)

If both are 0 (I.E. below 33bhp and below the 0.16 weight ratio)

then you get

(NOT 0) OR (NOT 0)

which is

1 OR 1 = 1 = Legal

If either are not complied to

you get

(NOT 1) or (NOT 0)

which is

0 OR 1 = 0 = you are riding illegally. (WRONG HERE)

Should be 0 or 1 = 1 = riding legally. Which means i'm wrong all along! Which bloody well sucks!

Which is subject on the goverment using boolean logic of course

Zascar

Interesting, but i don't think a guard is going to agree with you if you try to argue that way! Or a judge for that matter...

murphaph

TBi wrote: »

Made a mistake there so i read it again.

It says

(NOT X) OR (NOT Y)

It doesn't say that! It really just says 'X OR Y' where X and Y happen to be restrictions, the law is not saying that you can't ride over 25kW or 0.16kW/kg, it actually says you can ride under 25kW or 0.16kW/kg. Please, read it again. It says you are restricted to X or Y. Restricted != 'NOT'.

TBi

Zascar wrote: »

Interesting, but i don't think a guard is going to agree with you if you try to argue that way! Or a judge for that matter...

I'm arguing that the law is right. Why would they disagree with me?

TBi

murphaph wrote: »

It doesn't say that! It really just says 'X OR Y' where X and Y happen to be restrictions, the law is not saying that you can't ride over 25kW or 0.16kW/kg, it actually says you can ride under 25kW or 0.16kW/kg. Please, read it again. It says you are restricted to X or Y. Restricted != 'NOT'.

From the RSA website

"Anyone granted a first learner permit in category A on or after December 17, 1999 is restricted to driving motorcycles with an engine power output NOT exceeding 25kw OR a power/weight ratio NOT exceeding 0.16kw/kg. This restriction applies for the duration of all learner permits and for two years after taking out a full license (not two years from date of test)."

Emphasis mine.

As i said NOT X OR NOT Y.

EvilMonkey

murphaph wrote: »

But that's wrong! You don't have to ride a restricted bike just becase you hold a restricted licence-for a start you could be riding a Honda Cub 90 or something. Anyway, your bike's actual power (not manufacturer's stated power) divided by your bike's gross laden weight (not design gross vehicle weight) at time of accident is a fair figure to use for the power to weight ratio (which must be under 0.16kg/kW). So long as you do the math and are happy that your bike is under this with those inputs, you're good to go because the law must be explicit in such matters, and it is not explicit at all.

Ok when i said restricted i meant < 33bhp or.16kg/kW, obviously if your on a cub 90 you dont need a restrictor.

murphaph wrote: »

The law talks about "weight" (not even mass, which would be the correct term!) and "power". It does not specify what weight or power figures to use so you can use the ones most advantageous to you. We use an adversarial legal system. Once your barrister argues your case the judge will have to side with him and then maybe send the law for a judicial review so as to have it amended in the Dail (eventually). He can't just find you guilty because in the UK and everywhere else they have implemented the 2nd directive correctly. The judge won't be looking at little pictograms on your driving licence-he will look coldly at the law in front of him and make his decision based on that. People "get off" on much smaller technicalities (particularly road traffic offences) than this. This isn't even a technicality, it's just not illegal to ride some bikes here on a restricted licence that are illegal to ride in other EU jurisdictions.

In our legal system laws in Ireland is interpreted it doesn't need to be exact.

murphaph wrote: »

It's not. The UK law specifies the dgvw and manufacturers' rated HP as legally binding for the purpose of the power to weight calculation. Irish law does not and that's why it falls down and is unenforcable.

Show me

murphaph wrote: »

Your licence is backed up by a legal requirement to hold one. There's no requirement to hold a certificate of restriction. The document does not exist in law.

I already said it was a bad example how about a contract signed by someone is a legal document?

murphaph wrote: »

I personally am out of the restriction a while now but I rode unrestricted on a TDM 850 and a VFR750 and I was confident and remain confident that I broke no law, either criminal or civil (contract) law with my insurance company.

Fair enough.

If a guard asks you is the bike restricted and you say yes, he says he doesn't think so, then he asks you to produce a cert at a station and you say no you dont have too whatever, you will be walking home.

EvilMonkey

TBi wrote: »

From the RSA website

"Anyone granted a first learner permit in category A on or after December 17, 1999 is restricted to driving motorcycles with an engine power output NOT exceeding 25kw OR a power/weight ratio NOT exceeding 0.16kw/kg. This restriction applies for the duration of all learner permits and for two years after taking out a full license (not two years from date of test)."

Emphasis mine.

As i said NOT X OR NOT Y.

Thats a whole new 5 page argument :P

murphaph

TBi, the RSA website quoted by you is NOT (lol) quoting the actual legislation. That's the RSA's (mistaken) interpretation of it.

There isn't a hope in hell of anyone being convicted on this shoddily written legislation-and as far as I and all the biking forums and MAG are aware, NOBODY ever has been.

Edit: I'm going to bow out of this one because it's been done to death on all the forums before but I will be the first person to admit I was wrong if a judge ever convicts anyone under the legislation (unless it's appealed and overturned).

TBi

murphaph wrote: »

TBi, the RSA website quoted by you is NOT (lol) quoting the actual legislation. That's the RSA's (mistaken) interpretation of it.

There isn't a hope in hell of anyone being convicted on this shoddily written legislation-and as far as I and all the biking forums and MAG are aware, NOBODY ever has been.

Edit: I'm going to bow out of this one because it's been done to death on all the forums before but I will be the first person to admit I was wrong if a judge ever convicts anyone under the legislation (unless it's appealed and overturned).

Well pointed out. I'd love to go through the actual legislation so.

I'll probably keep my restriction in anyway. I test drove an unrestricted bandit 600 and it scared me above 6000 RPM. I'll probably have the same reaction on the CBF but i'll grow into it

Wish me luck driving from the dealership to the garage tomorrow. Hope i don't get done for having an unrestricted bike while i'm on the way to get it restricted!

EvilMonkey

TBi wrote: »

Well pointed out. I'd love to go through the actual legislation so.

I'll probably keep my restriction in anyway. I test drove an unrestricted bandit 600 and it scared me above 6000 RPM. I'll probably have the same reaction on the CBF but i'll grow into it

Wish me luck driving from the dealership to the garage tomorrow. Hope i don't get done for having an unrestricted bike while i'm on the way to get it restricted!

There you go from here, google is great isn't it

Motorcycle engine size restriction.
14. (1) Subject to paragraph (2), a person granted a provisional licence for the first time on or after 15 November 1999 to drive vehicles in category A, is, during the validity of all provisional licences granted to him or her and subsequently until a period of having held a driving licence in the category for 2 years, restricted to driving only those vehicles in that category which have a power output not exceeding 25 kW or a power/weight ratio not exceeding 0.16kW/kg, or in the case of vehicles in the said category with sidecars, with a power/weight ratio not exceeding 0.16kW/kg.

Good Luck!

TBi

EvilMonkey wrote: »

There you go from here, google is great isn't it

Good Luck!

That says the exact same thing as the RSA website

Motorcycle engine size restriction.
14. (1) Subject to paragraph (2), a person granted a provisional licence for the first time on or after 15 November 1999 to drive vehicles in category A, is, during the validity of all provisional licences granted to him or her and subsequently until a period of having held a driving licence in the category for 2 years, restricted to driving only those vehicles in that category which have a power output NOT exceeding 25 kW OR a power/weight ratio not exceeding 0.16kW/kg, or in the case of vehicles in the said category with sidecars, with a power/weight ratio NOT exceeding 0.16kW/kg.

TBi

Please tell me this means what i think it means!

(2) Paragraph (1) does not apply to a person granted a provisional licence for the first time to drive vehicles in category A in the period commencing 15 November 1999 and ending on 17 December 1999 where the person either -

(a)

during that period held a driving licence in respect of vehicles in category A1 and held such a driving licence for a period of at least 2 years during the period of 10 years preceding the commencement day of the licence, or

(b) was, on the commencement day, 25 years of age or over.

I have a full A1 for the last 3 years. Does that mean i'm not restricted? Plus i'm over 25!

EvilMonkey

TBi wrote: »

Please tell me this means what i think it means!



I have a full A1 for the last 3 years. Does that mean i'm not restricted? Plus i'm over 25!

No your bollixed :mad:
A1 only allows you to ride a bike up to 125cc
Sorry to have to tell you this but; if you dont already have a category A(A only not A1) full licence or learner permit, you need to get to the tax office and get an A lerner permit (and you will have do the test again) before you pick up your bike.

paulieeye

TBi wrote: »

0 OR 1 = 0 = you are riding illegally.

theres an error in your logic my friend.

0 OR 1 = 1,

i.e False OR True = True, if either of these conditions are true then the statement is true.

if it was an AND it would be false

0 AND 1 = 0

1st year computer science CIT..done!

TBi

EvilMonkey wrote: »

No your bollixed :mad:
A1 only allows you to ride a bike up to 125cc
Sorry to have to tell you this but; if you dont already have a category A(A only not A1) full licence or learner permit, you need to get to the tax office and get an A lerner permit (and you will have do the test again) before you pick up your bike.

I have my provisional A. I don't mind doing the test again, my only problem is this stupid 6 month wait before i can even sit my test! Stupid new laws!

paulieeye wrote: »

theres an error in your logic my friend.

0 OR 1 = 1,

i.e False OR True = True, if either of these conditions are true then the statement is true.

if it was an AND it would be false

0 AND 1 = 0

1st year computer science CIT..done!

Ah feck it. I'm a bloody engineer. What a stupid mistake! I must have been thinking about it wrong.

TBi

My bike is about 222KG. Does this restriction thing i can restrict it to only 35BHP? That's about 0.16Kw/KG

Hmmm....

EvilMonkey

TBi wrote: »

My bike is about 222KG. Does this restriction thing i can restrict it to only 35BHP? That's about 0.16Kw/KG

Hmmm....

I dont know but do you reckon you would notice the 2 BHP difference :pac:

Oryx

TBi wrote: »

My bike is about 222KG. Does this restriction thing i can restrict it to only 35BHP? That's about 0.16Kw/KG

Hmmm....

The rule is 25kw or 33bhp. Youre back to the either or argument you just had ^^^. 35bhp is bloody close anyway, you might as well loose the extra 2bhp and not have to worry about how the law is interpreted.

I have checked this out, could get no consensus from anyone, really. It needs to be decided in court. But from a guard, I got that they will look for you to fulfil the below 25kw criteria.

TBi

EvilMonkey wrote: »

I dont know but do you reckon you would notice the 2 BHP difference :pac:

I'm more concerned about the guard knowing

Nah i'll go legal. I'm a sensible boy me. Even did a test on a 125 to get my full A1 licence.

... Only to be screwed by being told i'm not allowed do my Full A test for 6 months after i get my permit, which was this March, even though i have 6+ years no claims and i have a full A1 for 3 years.

I'm not really bothered by the restriction. More bothered by the fact i can't take a pillion or bring my bike abroad!